This thread is mainly for me to reference later while I'm working on this, but also have some questions and welcome any suggestions.
I have a 1989 Toyota Van, 2wd. It ran out of gas and would not start after adding about 3 gallons
I jumped the fuel pump test connector and could hear gas running thru the lines, so I know the pump itself is working and getting power. This thread gave me info on testing that: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...sure-regulator
The van cranks but will not turn over. It gets close but it's like there's not enough gas. Stomping on the gas pedal all the way gets it closer. I'm thinking when it ran out of gas, some rust/gunk got sucked in somewhere in the fuel system and is restricting flow.
I think the following are most likely culprits:
1. Fuel strainer attached to the fuel pump in the tank. Is it a bad idea to only clean/replace the strainer and keep using the old pump?
2. Fuel filter in engine compartment under the passenger seat. I plan on replacing this first. Easier than fuel strainer, so I'm hoping that will do it. But it makes sense that fuel strainer in fuel pump would be affected first.
3. Fuel Pressure regulator. Do these get gunked up? Or is there some other cause of failure?
4. Clogged fuel injectors. I somehow doubt rust would get that far in the system but who knows. Also, don't think they've ever been serviced/replaced
First time poster here. Would really appreciate some diagnostic help with this problem.
I was 100 feet from a gas station the other day when I ran out of gas. Out of desperation (I was blocking traffic) I attempted to restart the engine several times. Nothing. Put two gallons in, cranks but won't start. Not even a sputter or stumble. Got a friend to turn the key to ON while I put my ear to the filler neck and heard nothing but a click.
This leads me to think I cooked the fuel pump by attempting to restart with a dry tank (d'oh!). I wanted to check with those more experienced than myself before dropping the tank and replacing the pump. Is there anything else I should check first? Im not familiar with the sound of a fuel pump running inside the tank - could I have missed it or is it pretty obvious?
Thanks originalkwyjibo. I reviewed the Tim's post and used what I could to diagnose my problem.
By the way, this van is an '86.
Here's everything I've done so far:
1. Jumpered the FP test connector and immediately heard fuel whirring in the lines. Conclusion: FP is good.
2. Cracked open the cold start injector banjo fitting while cranking and got a nice shot of gasoline right in my face. Conclusion: FP is pumping while cranking.
3. Checked EFI/ignition fuses in the fuse box near the glove compartment: all good. Checked the EFI fusible link near the PS pump, - also good. Removed the circuit opening relay, took it apart and inspected the contacts. Looked pretty good but I cleaned them up with emery paper just in case. I looked hard for the EFI Main Relay but couldn't find anything by that name. I found a cylindrical relay labeled "Eng. Main Relay", thought that might be the right one so I opened it up to see if it was corroded but it was not.
I have two main questions that I really need help answering:
1. Does the fact that the FP pumps while cranking indicate that *all* the fuel system electrical components are functioning correctly?
2. Is it possible to have a no start condition due to low fuel pressure? It seems to me that IF the electricals are working AND I'm getting fuel while cranking, the only possibility is that the fuel filter is so clogged from sucking up the dregs when the tank ran dry that I'm getting excessively low fuel pressure.
Thoughts? Any help would be much appreciated. I use this van for work and cannot afford to take it to a shop. I feel like I'm getting close here but I really need an expert to point me in the right direction.
It sounds like all the usual suspects are present.
Have you pulled spark plugs to see if they are wet and that you actually have spark?
I know it ran fine and only ran low on fuel but sometimes weird stuff happens and the more variables you can eliminate the better.
It would suck to get it towed and diagnosed, only to find out its something as simple as fouled plugs?
Well I'm ashamed to say that I've been throwing parts at this thing without doing the best diagnostics. I figured one of the major components of the fuel system had gone bad and there was a good chance that if I just threw a few new components on there one of them would fix the problem and the van would start right up. Now I'm reaping what I sowed. So far I've replaced the fuel pump, fuel filter, and fuel pressure regulator all to no avail. Still not getting fuel to the cylinders. The van cranks but the plugs are still bone dry. It's gotta be clogged injectors/screens, right? If it is, I think that's above my autodidactic diy skill level. Looks like I'll have to get it towed to a shop tomorrow.
If you have a garage that you are comfortable with and trust then that is surely an option.
Understand that technicians hate getting jobs like this and for good reason.
Its never any fun trying to figure out something that has already been messed about with.
Bottom line is its about to get a while lot more expensive.
They WILL want to diagnose the problem correctly before proceeding.
If you insist it is the injectors they will happily do that, but if it doesn't solve the issue there will be no sympathy on their part.
We once had a Jag come to us from a local repair shop, climate control had failed and they embarked on "solving" the problem.
When it came to us on the tow truck, the dashboard was in the back seat and the wiring harness looked like barfed spaghetti
We spent 20 hrs (@ $75/hr) putting the car back together so that we could diagnose the problem.
Once it was all back together, we diagnosed the system, cleaned the control head, gave it a bath and called it done.
Diagnosis and repair took less than an hour, no parts required!
The alternative is to go back and do the diagnosis properly and also to recheck everything you've already done.
Understand that while its entirely possible, maybe even probable, that the injectors are plugged, it still isn't a given.
So when you changed the fuel pump, what did the inside of the tank look like?
Have you done a pressure test? And if you have correct pressure, what is the flow like?
Did you make sure that you can blow air through all the lines that you can access?
Did you try to flush out the system while it was open to see if there was any debris past the filter?
What was the condition of the pick-up screen?
Do you know if the injectors are receiving the signal to open?
1987 Toyota Van LE 4x4 5spd, on 30x9.50R15s, boosted to 16PSI
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Re: Van cranks but won't start after tank ran dry
If you have verified that there is fuel, and pressure in the fuel line the next step is to verify the injectors have power and are cycling. To do this you need a noid light (cheap on Amazon). You disconnect one, or the two visible injector plugs, plug in the noid light, and see if the noid light flashes while cranking. If it flashes the injectors are more than likely getting signal. I say more than likely because noid lights aren't 100% perfect in verifying the correct voltage.
If there is no flash, you either have a + power supply problem (fuse, fuel injector resistor, bad wire, etc.), Or a - trigger signal problem (ECU, bad wire, etc.).
If there is flash you need to verify the injectors are actually opening and closing. To do this use a mechanics stethoscope (cheap on Amazon). While listening with the stethoscope put the probe on the metal case of the injectors one at a time while cranking. It is possible to get to all injectors. It will be really hard to tell if it's clicking due to the starter noise. I recommend testing it out on any running car with easy to reach injectors first. That way you know what sound to look for.
If there is clicking and power, the injectors may be clogged (all four clogging all at once is unusual).
If there is power and no clicking, the injectors may be stuck (unusual for all four to stick all at once). You can try tapping them to get them cycling again.
How did you verify that the engine is not getting fuel? Did you check spark too?
Thanks to everyone who responded. This experience taught me a few valuable lessons. First and foremost, I now know in no uncertain terms that there is a big difference between being able to turn a wrench and being a mechanic. If I had approached my no start condition like a true mechanic, I would have gone in without preconceptions about the nature of the fault. That being said, it's hard to do a job right when you don't have the right tools on hand and you're working on a city street instead of a garage.
I took the van to a reputable shop that only works on Japanese cars. Took em a while to diagnose the problem (they said at this point they're more accustomed to simply connecting the scan tool and reading the faults) but it turned out to be spark! They replaced the distributor and igniter. Cost me $912 + $200 for the igniter on ebay, had it shipped to the shop.
I personally never considered spark to be the problem because after cranking the plugs were always BONE DRY. I cracked open the banjo fitting at the cold start injector while a friend cranked the engine and fuel shot right into my face. With dry plugs but fuel at the injectors I figured the injectors might be the culprit - but no, the shop only replaced electrical components. I feel like I'm missing some theoretical components of this picture. Can anyone explain to me what I'm missing?
Burntboot: I took your story about the Jag into consideration when handing over the van to the shop. I had the engine access panel off and I could hardly remember where all the bolts went so I told them to just give it back to me in the condition I gave it to them and I would deal with reinstalling the ebrake, shifter, and eng. access panel.
VanCo: Thanks for taking the time to explain that process. Next time I have to troubleshoot the injectors I will have an idea of the correct process. Unfortunately, the van had beaten me by the time I read your post...
My final thought is that this was really a very evil thing for the van to do to me. I knew I was very low on gas when the engine cut out. Naturally, I concluded I had run out of gas. But no, not at all - coincidentally, ignition system components had failed. Never will I make assumptions again! Hopefully this story can help others get back on the road at some point ^o^ Thx for reading.
1987 Toyota Van LE 4x4 5spd, on 30x9.50R15s, boosted to 16PSI
Join Date
Mar 2017
Location
Salt Lake City
Posts
186
Rep Power
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Re: Van cranks but won't start after tank ran dry
The computer uses the signal from the distributor pickup to fire the injectors and the coil. If the signal isn't getting to the computer (bad pickup in dist., etc.) then not only will the coil not fire, but the injectors won't. Basically the computer doesn't know the engine is turning.
I suspect trouble shooting the injectors would have eventually led to the distributor as well.
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