Yeah... You bled like a pro. Thank your wife!Originally Posted by rootbeerrain
It lurches forward when you try to start it, in gear, clutch pedal depressed?
Sounds like a new clutch time.
I have a place to stay on the big island, send me a ticket and I'll bring a new one and help install it.
Yeah... You bled like a pro. Thank your wife!
I have a place to stay on the big island, send me a ticket and I'll bring a new one and help install it.
lol, nice, now we're talking.
It would be really awesome and appreciated if someone with a working manual trans could take a peek under their van and see how far their clutch slave moves the lever when the clutch pedal is depressed. That would help me confirm that the pedal hydraulics are working and I just need to replace some actual clutch stuff. Pretty please!
Just confirmed for sure that the clutch is the culprit: tried to start it in first gear with no brakes applied and clutch pedal fully depressed and it was like the starter was driving the van forward. I'm wondering if anyone here knows the best clutch replacement kit available? There were a bunch of options available at rockauto but I have no idea if there's any junk ones to be aware of. Also do you think a clutch kit would be sufficient or is there more I should buy?
Of course this is all IF my clutch hydraulics are all working right and I'm getting enough travel at the clutch slave lever. The only way for me to really know that is for somebody to compare my video with what they see under a normal working van... pretty pretty please??
I've been watching this thread unfold and haven't chimed in because you've been getting solid advice. I would like to add a few clarifying viewpoints though. I think you are on the right track asking for a slave measurement. I have contacted a friend with a manual van and if no one else can get this for you I'll see what we can do. You're bleeding procedure sounds solid save for one point. You didn't mention at what point you are closing the bleeder. This may have been a simple omission in your description but to be sure, it should be closed with the pedal being held down after all the pressure has been released. The pedal should never be allowed to be raised until the bleeder is closed. Also, it's been mentioned in other threads that clutch bleeding was problematic with the front of the van raised on jack stands or ramps. If you are using these you may have a trapped air pocket in the system. Maybe you would even want to try raising the rear of the van and see if any more air comes out. Pedal pressure is different with brakes as compared to hydraulic clutches. If you really want to see the difference between what is referred to as pressure in a clutch pedal vs no pressure, you could have your wife explain it since she has been experiencing this the whole time she's been helping you or you could have someone open the bleeder while the pedal is up then depress the pedal to the floor with the bleeder open. This will not introduce any air into the system as long as the bleeder is closed before you lift the pedal. With brakes you are creating clamping force with the rotor between the brake pads. With the clutch you are simply trying to move something from point a to point b. Think of it as a hydraulic cylinder on an engine hoist, log splitter, backhoe etc. When the cylinder is filled with fluid it extends and something on the other end moves. That being said, for some reason yours does not seem to be moving enough. It is possible that your hydraulic system is working perfectly but something in the mechanical parts of the clutch aren't. Before I go on I want to clarify some terminology. You mention you didn't think the clutch was clutching. In fact it is just at the wrong time. When you depress the clutch pedal the clutch should disengage or de-clutch and when you release the clutch pedal the clutch engages. Your clutch is not fully dis-engaging. Your van should not creep when the clutch pedal is depressed with the van in gear and the engine should run at the same speed as when the transmission is in neutral. In fact with the engine running, the tyranny in gear, the clutch depressed, and the brakes released it should roll freely if someone were to push it. Someone mentioned an oily clutch but that would actually cause the opposite problem. I have seen clutches rust to either a flywheel or pressure plate after sitting for sometime which could be a possibility. It's also possible the clutch fork or throw out bearing are damaged limiting the slave cylinders effect on the pressure plate although a bad bearing usually makes noise when the pedal is depressed then goes away when it's released. The clutch fork is the part sticking out of the transmission that the slave cylinder pushes on. In the middle it has a fulcrum point that usually includes a pivot ball and retaining clip and the other end holds the throw out bearing. I have seen clutch forks wear through at the fulcrum which would limit the slaves effect on the pressure plate. It is entirely possible there is nothing wrong with the clutch disc or pressure plate and I would hate to see you throw unnecessary parts, money, and time at an unneeded job. Of course if the transmission has to come out to find the cause, a new clutch may be a worthwhile investment while it's apart. You could always get an educated opinion on the condition of these parts if and when you take it apart. If it were me I would want to start with verifying the travel distance of the slave cylinder before going any further. Hopefully one of us can get that for you. Best of luck!
Last edited by originalkwyjibo; 04-11-2017 at 02:21 AM.
If you don't want to pay Toyota prices, aftermarket will be fine.
Nothing fancy required. Don't forget the discount code.
I'd replace any rubber lines too.
My manual trans car has equivalent travel.
Clutch movement is only a couple mm
Another thing to verify.
Does the clutch fork stay depressed when the pedal is held down?
A leaky or bad hose could cause similar symptoms if it doesn't hold pressure.
I will see if I can get some pics together later.
All I know, is when my clutch master went bad (I also replaced the slave at the same time) it was a pain to bleed.
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world, and bleeding this clutch really tested my patience.
When bleeding a clutch it is important that the person manning the pedal pays attention to the difference between feeling pressure building and air. Try making small pumps (inch off the floor) only to build pressure, and then hold to the floor to bleed. As you bleed off air the small pumps will get longer and longer (you will feel the difference) until you are using the full throw of the pedal to build pressure.
I hope that makes sense.
Bleeder was always closed before clutch pedal was released. Also, Thanks kwyjibo for that good chunk of knowledge!originalkwyjibo
You didn't mention at what point you are closing the bleeder.
OOOOHHHH is there a secret discount code I don't know about? Also yes the system holds pressure, the fork lever stays put when the pedal is held down.Ace MM
If you don't want to pay Toyota prices, aftermarket will be fine.
Nothing fancy required. Don't forget the discount code.
I have smallkine experience in the automotive world and this clutch bleeding thing has also tested my patience lol. I'm not sure I understand the full bleeding process though. I mean I know what to do but I don't know why it's done. Like originalkwyjibo explained, the brake fluid doesn't really compress it just moves. It will be under pressure when pressure is applied but it doesn't really build up pressure like pumping a bike pump. So why do we pump clutch pedals multiple times to bleed the clutch? Is it just to wiggle air bubbles around in an effort to dislodge them and hopefully move them towards the bleeder? Anywho, I need to be absolutely sure my hydraulics are air free before I open the trans to inspect the clutch itself. In that quest: VanCo, I'm not sure that the pressure is building as the clutch pedal is depressed. As it is now, theres like an inch of play at the top of the range and then as it goes down to the floor theres a steady amount of pressure. It's lighter than I would expect, but again I am a newbie here and this is the first clutch pedal I've ever pressed on so I have no idea what it should feel likeVanCo
All I know, is when my clutch master went bad (I also replaced the slave at the same time) it was a pain to bleed.
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world, and bleeding this clutch really tested my patience.
When bleeding a clutch it is important that the person manning the pedal pays attention to the difference between feeling pressure building and air. Try making small pumps (inch off the floor) only to build pressure, and then hold to the floor to bleed. As you bleed off air the small pumps will get longer and longer (you will feel the difference) until you are using the full throw of the pedal to build pressure.
I hope that makes sense..
I think today we'll do another round of bleeding with the back end jacked up for good measure. Know any other tricks to be positive there's no more air in there and to know without a doubt that there's no issues between the clutch pedal and the push rod at the slave cylinder?
Thank you guys for your time and energy reading and thinking about this stuff!
You are correct. Air compresses fluid does not. If there is air in the system then you don't get adequate pressure. This manifests as a squishy or spongy pedal with brakes but is a little more difficult to feel with a clutch. Have you checked pedal adjustment per the service manual? It sounds like you have more free play at the top of the pedal than what you should. If the master cylinder push-rod is not to spec, you may gain some slave travel by adjusting it. Just make sure you follow the procedure in the manual. Also, my friend was waiting for the rain to let up but thought he could get some measurements in the next couple days. He also works nights and sleeps days so getting someone to be up and come out in the dark with him to help take pics and measurements can be problematic.
Okay I will be patient, thank you and thank your friend!
I will make sure the pedal is adjusted to specs today, although I only have access to the 1987 repair manual and this van is an 89. I sure hope there's no difference.
The weirdest thing happened yesterday:
I put the rear end of the van up on jacks to tilt it forward in hopes for a better bleed, and I figured out a way to bleed it without help by pumping it myself and using a metal bar wedged between the pedal and the seat to hold the clutch pedal depressed all the way down while I went to release the bleeder valve. So the weird part is I started to see air bubbles escaping through the bleeder valve... WHILE IT WAS STILL TIGHTENED... what??
RBR - If the bleeder is leaking when closed, it isn't seating properly.
You have to pull the bleeder screw right out and inspect both it and where it seats in the slave.
Then decide if it goes back for warranty or not.
If you still have your original part, it may even be worth trying the bleeder screw from it.
Sucks to have "new" parts bad out of the box but at least this could be the smoking gun you were looking for?
Was the slave new or rebuilt?
Howdy guys and gals.
It is finally time for me to get back to working on this van. Any chance anyone has looked under their manual trans and seen if my slave is going the full movement as compared to normally functioning vans? If not pretty please someone do, I'd hate to drop the trans this weekend in vain. Anywho, my last ditch effort will be to hook up a vacuum pump to the clutch reservoir, a tube from the bleeder stem into a bottle of fluid, and suck fluid up through the whole system to be absolutely sure there's no bubbles in there. If that doesn't do the trick, that trans is droppin. All I'd be able to do is take the important looking parts to someone who knows what it's supposed to look like and get them to tell me if they're worn out/broken or not. Then I'll be buyin parts, swappin 'em and really hoping this thing shifts and drives after that. Anyway, pleeeeease chime in with observations and I promise someday I will make it worth your while somehow.
Thank you!
-Spencer
Success! And observations:
When I dropped the trans I found that all the clutch components inside were brand new! The clutch disk still had serial numbers or whatever printed on the face that hadn't been rubbed off yet. So that was confusing, but while I was there I pulled the flywheel and had that resurfaced for good measure (had some grooves in it). Also, it turns out that getting ambitious and trying to bleed the clutch hydraulics with an actual electric vacuum pump was way too aggressive and introduced way more air into the system. Here's the best way that I've found to bleed:
1. Remove the reservoir lid and fill to the very brim with DOT 3 fluid. Leave the funnel and bottle of fluid there and ready.
2. Put a closed wrench on the bleeder stem at the slave cylinder and slip on a tight-fitting, clear piece of tubing that will drain into a disposable container.
3. Open the bleeder stem, and as soon as you see fluid spilling out quickly jump up and run around the van to the reservoir.
4. As you see the fluid draining from the reservoir continuously fill it with DOT 3 fluid from the bottle.
5. When you are confident the system has been thoroughly flushed (I filled for about a minute) top off the reservoir and sprint around to close the bleeder valve before it drains too low and gets air.
6. Then do a standard bleed cycle a couple times to be sure (slowly pump pedal once, hold down while bleeder is cracked, close bleeder, then release pedal slowly, topping off reservoir).
This made my clutch work.
Alls I got to do now is drain the transmission and put some good new oil in there (some poured out the back during removal and it was blaaack). Would it be fine to just do a simple drain and fill with the fancy royal purple stuff?
Thanks,
-Spencer
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