Code 14

[slosurfer]

So the last few months I've had troubles with the van intermittently running on 3 cylinders (starts to sound like an old vw bus). When it started doing it, it would just happen every once in awhile and usually after it had been run for awhile. Then it got worse and some days it would run all day on 3 cyls and the next day run just fine. One day it stalled on me and I had a heck of a time getting it restarted. Finally got it restarted and limped it home (stalled a couple times on the way home but started up right away). Codes were all over the place, so I cleared them (I don't remember them, but I believe most of them were from trying to get the thing restarted).

I changed the cap/rotor, spark plugs, and sparkplug wires. Spark plugs, wires, and cap looked fine but the rotor looked pretty bad, so I thought I had found my problem. Van ran fine for about a week and then started doing the same thing again (damn), but it wouldn't throw a code. This week it started getting bad again and finally died on me a block from the house and would not restart. It would crank, but no spark. FINALLY, it threw a code!

Code 14 - Ignition - may be the igniter and ignition coil
circuit, or the igniter and ignition
coil
• no “IGF” signal to ECU 4-5
times in succession

Autozone had an ignition coil in stock so I picked that up and installed it. First time ever pulling a distributer, thanks to Tim's other threads/tips, I was able to pull it and get it back in and get the van started. The van now started and I was even able to drive it around and get it warmed up. It still sounds like it is running rough and has a bad miss. Ran it for about 20 minutes on the street and had it on and off quite a few times but it never threw a code.

I went and got a timing light and decided to try to do the timing. It's running rough and I had a heck of a time getting a good angle with the light on the indicator and getting my head where I could see the indicator at the same time, not to mention the thing is running rough and I had a hard time with the idle speed. I killed it a few times by turning the distributer too far and was getting frustrated with the timing light which didn't seem to be working well and it was getting dark etc... I killed it a few more times and then it got to the point where it wouldn't idle without dieing on its own. In the end, I couldn't get it to start again and I got the code 14 again.

I'm guessing I need to call junk yards today and try to find an igniter? Any ideas what years of vans would have to the same igniter as mine?

This really sucks to try to do without a manual. I'm used to working on my 4runner with my factory manuals (speaking of which, the 4runner blew a headgasket this week )

[slosurfer]

This has been one heck of a week..
Monday morning my wife's truck had a flat tire that I had to change
Tuesday morning the van had a flat tire that I had to change
Tuesday afternoon the headgasket on the 4runner blew
Thursday morning the van died on me
On top of all that my wife and kids are all coming down with a cold right now

[timsrv]

Lol, sounds like one hell of a week . FWIW, you are going about this the same way I would. Based on your description and the code 14 I would suspect the coil 1st and the igniter 2nd. Toyota used the same igniter (89620-28040) from 86-89, so any in this year range will work. I could be wrong, but I believe this particular igniter is specific to our vans. Here's one on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/89620...#ht_3792wt_939 . IMHO this one is a little overpriced, but if you need it right away it certainly beats Toyota's price (I think they want around $300-$400 For a new one). Tim

[slosurfer]

Thanks Tim! I called every junk yard in the county and no one had a van or the part. :( The closest junk yard is actually closed today, so that's the only one I don't know about. One was very helpful and crossreferenced it to see if it was used on other vehicles but he said it looked specific to our vans. He said he didn't have one but could find me one and it would be about $150. Makes that one in your link seem downright reasonable....

I'll probably order the ebay one (edit: I did buy the ebay one) and in the meantime give my timing one more shot.

Also, since I'm going to have to wait for the igniter, I figured I could test some other stuff, but I have questions...

1. Is there a way to test the ignition coil itself to see if it is good? (wouldn't be the first time I've used a part from a store and it was bad)

2. I have a multimeter and was thinking that I should check the wires that run from the the igniter to the distributor. What's the best way to check that? Do I just check for continuity between the two ends?

3. My new timing light was acting weird and I thought it was broken, but if my igniter or ignition coil was acting up, then I guess it makes sense that the light might not work correctly. I'm going to hook it up to my ford, just to see if it is working or if I need to take it back

[timsrv]

There is a test for coils outlined in the IG section of the manual, but due to the somewhat intermittent nature of your problem I wouldn't trust the results (whatever they may be). Since you already changed the coil and the problem remains, I think it's safe to assume it's not your coil (what are the odds of random new and used coils having the exact same intermittent type problem??? I would think slim to none).

I have seen igniters "partially fail" before. They usually just crap out completely but I have seen them cause intermittent problems exactly like you describe. Sometimes problems are associated with heat, cold, humidity, length of time in operation, etc. In one instance I replaced the coil 1st and it actually ran quite a bit better--but still had issues.........finally I replaced the igniter (with a good used one) and the problem completely vanished. I much prefer when components completely fail, but sometimes things can gradually decline until the tipping point of good -vs- bad comes into question. Sometimes paring them with other parts can make them work better or worse.

If replacing the igniter doesnt work, the only other thing I can think of is maybe the ECU.........but IMO that's a long shot. I'm guessing that another igniter will solve your problem. Other than swapping I don't know of a way to test the igniter. Even the service manual says "try another igniter" (instead of outlining a test procedure). I think you're on the right track. Good luck. Tim

PS: So you've had your van for how long??? Get a factory service manual already!!! http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=....c0.m270.l1313

[slosurfer]

I know, it's rediculous that I don't have one yet! When I do have money and search for one, I can't find one, but then they pop up like crazy when I'm broke. (EDIT) I just bought one of the ones Tim posted from ebay. I got the one that also came with the extra electrical book (figured that might come in handy )

Do you know if there is a way to bench test an ignition coil? While I wait for the igniter, I figured maybe I could bench test the ignition coil that I replaced before I toss it.

I'm really hoping that swapping that igniter in will do the trick. With my 4runner also down, I'm forced to drive my big work truck and the gas milieage on that thing is going to kill me if I have to drive it too long (luckily this week, I'm working close by). Also, the pismo jamboree (that I'm in charge of), is this weekend and it's looking like I might not have a 4wd Toyota out there and will have to bum rides out in the dunes.

Hopefully I get that igniter on wed....

[timsrv]

CLICK HERE and scroll down to IG 6. This is an 87 manual but the coil test is the same in 89. FWIW, I usually don't trust this test because of what I already said, plus in the past I've had good ones test bad and bad ones test good. The real proof is when you swap them out. If you have to purchase the coil then it's the more expensive way, but IMHO it's a better way to prove/disprove the condition of the part. Tim

[slosurfer]

Swapped the igniter and the van started... The timing was way off, as in it was not even close to the timing indicators. It was showing up at about 9 o'clock on the pulley. I could move the distributor some and get it running better, but obviously it wasn't going to be close to the 12* it should be.

If I follow the manual directions for setting the timing/distributer, using my finger to find TDC (but not looking where the timing mark is on the pulley in relation to the indicators), then the van runs decent but the timing mark ends up at 9 oclock when I hit it with the light (no where near the indicators). If I try to find TDC with my finger and then move the pulley to put the mark at 0* (it definitely doesn't feel like the 1 cylinder is at TDC when I do this) and then install the distributor following the directions, then I end up with it not starting and getting a backfire through the intake.

Can that pulley slip, thus making the timing mark on it useless?

I'm about to just go redo it, using my finger to find TDC, and install the distributor according to the manual, and then just set the timing by ear.

Getting frustrated.....

One of the times that I did it and it wouldn't start and backfired through the intake, I ended up removing the cap and then the distributer and turned the rotor 180* and reinstalled it all. The van started and sounded good, but once again the timing mark was at 9 oclock when hit with the timing light.

Yes, I am jumping the check engine connector when testing the timing.

[timsrv]

Whatever you do, don't use a wooden spoon in the spark plug hole to find TDC . At this point I would climb under the van and clean-up the entire periphery of the crankshaft pulley with a wire brush (to make sure there isn't another notch there there covered in grime). Once you're sure there's only one well defined notch, mark it with a dot of fluorescent paint so there can be no more confusion. I would also take a good look at that new timing light of yours and make sure it's not one of those that can be adjusted to delay or advance the strobe. If it does happen to be an adjustable one, then make sure it's set to zero.

If all that checks out and you still have the same issue, then I would shut it off and (carefully) use something long and skinny to stick in your #1 plug hole to determine TDC of the piston. A dial indicator with a long extension would be the most accurate, but you should be able to approximate it pretty close by feel (and for Pete's sake, don't use the starter to rotate the engine if you've got something stuck in your plug hole ). If after that the timing mark is way off of TDC, then you'll need to pull the crankshaft pulley and make sure the woodruff key is there and intact. If the key is intact and the keyway looks good, then it means the outer part of the pulley has slipped on the rubber insulator (meaning you will need to replace the pulley). Keep in mind that it's not too unusual to have problems with the woodruff key on these. If it has broken (allowing the pulley to slip) and you run it for too long, the end result could be destruction of the crankshaft. I hope it's something silly like an "out of adjustment" timing light. Tim

PS: If you're timing mark turns out to be in the right place on the pulley, but you can't set your timing, then you likely have the distributor a tooth off. It's easy to do with the helical distributor gear. Tim

[djshimon]

is there any way the tps could be throwing it off? my timing was not able to be set right due to a busted tps when i was jumpering the check engine connector. i'm probably way off, but that darn tps is a mutha!

[slosurfer]

Definitely not putting any wooden spoons in there!

I don't think it is my tps, because when I use my finger over the 1 cylinder and use a socket to turn the crankshaft pulley to find TDC, then the timing mark on the pulley is no where near TDC on the indicators. If I find TDC on the cylinder and then advance the pulley until the mark hits TDC on the indicators, then it definitely puts the cylinder past TDC.

So, just to be clear, when I find TDC with my finger over cylinder 1 and using a socket/wrench to turn the pulley, once I find it, then the mark on the pulley is supposed to be right around the 0 on the indicators, correct?

I'll double check the timing light, but its just a regular timing light with a button to push to turn on the light. Also, this is the second timing light I have used on the van and got the same results. Granted they are the same kind of timing light, but one crapped out on me so I returned it and got another one.

Last night, I redid everything. I found TDC using my finger and moving the pulley with the socket. Then I followed the manuals instructions for installing the distributor. Started right up and of course the timing mark was at 9 oclock, but was running fairly well. I adjusted the timing just by sound, and then took it for a test drive.

At first, the van was running better than it has in awhile, but then it started getting the miss/hesitation/running on 3 cylinders thing again. It would come and go, with no regards to speed/gear/throttle etc... (just totally random), and then by the end of the test run it was pretty much back to just a constant miss/hesitation/sounding like an old vw van thing again. :(

I think my timing is pretty close, but that the pulley or key is messed up. I've turned that pulley by hand many times now and haven't seen another mark, but I will check again. I used some white nail polish to mark the one that is on the pulley so that it is easier to see.

I have the Pismo Jamboree this weekend and I start setting up today, so I can't work on the van again until Monday (by then I should have my manual as well ) I think I will have to start with double checking that there is not another mark on the pulley, just to be sure. Then I guess I'm going to have to pull that pulley and see what I find and go from there. I'm also going to go through every test the manual has for the distributer/ignition coil with my multimeter. After that, I think I'm going to have to take a look at my ECU as well to see if there are any loose connections that could be causing the miss.

[NEC]

The TPS plays a big role in timing. When I first got mine running and dialied in the timing by spec (with bad tps) my timing was way off from what it should be. It ran hot and rich. When I got my TPS dialed in and re-timed it everything worked as it should. If you look at it with the timing light on at idle you should be at around 20* before you jump the test connector. You should get 12* after jumping the connector. If your timing does not retard when jumping the connector your tps has an open IDL circuit. This is very common in these vans.

[timsrv]

Yes it is. What NEC said X2. Any time you check timing you should always check with the "check engine" jumped and again with it un-jumped. If you don't see a significant difference in timing mark location it's a dead give-away that the TPS is messed up.

[slosurfer]

Well, the timing definitely changes with the terminal jumped and with it not jumped, and by my rough estimates, it seems to jump how much it should, but because the mark on my pulley is off, I don't have an indicator to go by. The problem is that the mark on the pulley is not at TDC when Cyl1 is at TDC (this is before even turning the motor/timing light on). That's not a TPS problem considering the van is turned off and I'm turning the crank by hand to find TDC


I'll take a pic tomorrow to show you what I mean. I'll find TDC on Cyl 1 and then I'll take a pic showing where my timing mark is on my pulley (all without turning the vehicle on and involving the TPS)

I got my manual today too Going to make things much easier, so I don't have to walk all the way back in the house to look up the one online

[slosurfer]

went out and used my hands to crank the pulley around and there is definitely only one timing mark on it.

I pulled the spark plug and found TDC by cranking the pulley by hand and this is where the timing mark on the pulley ends up in relation to the timing indicators. (Van has not been started at this point)



I took a quick video of the van running as well and will post that once it's done uploading

[slosurfer]

Here's a vid of how the van runs right now. Doesn't sound super bad, but after about 15 minutes of driving around, it will start missing real bad, sputtering, etc...

[NEC]

To get running you can paint a new mark at TDC with white-out. Time the engine with the new mark and you should be ok. Remember you can't always get exact with making your own mark so If you get any pinging under load you will want to go a couple of degrees slower and if you feel a bit sluggish you may go a few degrees advanced. You still should remove the crank pulley center bolt and inspect things to make sure you haven't totally lost the keyway.

[slosurfer]

Thanks NEC, that's what I was thinking of doing for now.

I think for my original problem, I may have to have a look at my ECU. So far, I've changed everything else. :(

Heading to work out of town first thing in the morning, so I'm not going to get to work on it again until the weekend. :( With my 4runner down, I really need to get this van running

[slosurfer]

So, I've now got a few hours to finally work on the van again. I have a manual now , so I decided to actually use it and test the ignition coil and distributor with the multimeter like it says to.

1. My original ignition coil does appear to be bad according to the test. Primary coil resistance (between the + and - terminals) measures at about .5 ohms when I can get it to stop on a reading. Otherwise, it just bounces all around and doesn't want to give me a solid number. It should measure at 1.2 - 1.5 ohms. The secondary resistance (between the + and high-tension terminals) measured okay at 8.7 k ohms, well within the specs of 7.7 - 10.4 k ohms.

2. The ignition coil that I just put in from autozone also fails the multimeter test. :( Primary coil resistance is fine at a solid 1.3 ohms, but the secondary resistance measures out of spec at 10.7 k ohms. I really wish I would have tested that before putting it in. :( I believe I have a warranty on it, so I'm going to go try to get a new one today.

My distributor passed the air gap and pickup coil tests, so I think my distributor housing assembly is fine.

So, it appears (if these tests are accurate), that my original ignition coil was bad and the "new" one I installed may also be bad (or at least not as good as it should). I hope autozone has another one, and I'll for sure be testing it before installing it.

EDIT: I just went and got another ignition coil from autozone and it has the same specs as the one I just returned. 10.7 k ohms on the secondary resistance Now I'm not sure if I should install it or see if Napa has one and try their brand. Hmmmm.... I think I might call Napa

[slosurfer]

So I installed the Autozone ignition coil. I also found TDC as best I could and put a new mark on the pulley. I set the timing and I must be close. The van right now is running better than it has in a long time. I drove it on the freeway and around town for about 30 minutes and it ran fine. Im going to drive it to work tomorrow so im not counting my chickens yet . Wish me luck!