Refreshing the engine (rebuild and aftermath)

Tim - Thanks for the education on lifters. My experiences are over 30 yrs out of date and back then I tended to do as instructed.
Always nice to learn proper ways, even if a "little" late.

This whole thing doesn't make any sense, it would seem to be that everything measures within spec, everything that should be a problem has been replaced and yet the noise still persists. After rereading the entire saga, trying to make sense of just what the heck is going on, I find myself coming back to post #22 and #35

"Got it fired up finally. Ran like crap making an awful noise from the head. Sounded like a generator was running under the seat. Limped it home about 15 miles and let it sit over night. Fired it up the next morning and it ran as smooth and quite as could be. No idea what happened but it hasn't made noises in the last 40 miles I've put on it. Going to order an oil pressure and water temperature gauges just to keep an eye on things but, fingers crossed its good to go."

"Lifters came out easy. I got 8 new Meller lifters from autozone and put them in today. The toyota van fsm said to soak them in diesel fuel before installation but I just primed them in a cup of oil before hand."

My first thought was they installed a reground cam and if it wasn't re-hardened, that might explain the 40 miles of quietude but if that were the case, the lift would be way out of spec (wiped out lobes).
Then I decided that it must be those A/M lifters causing an issue, but the issue was present before installing them so that would indicate that the lifters were never a part of the problem, as the likelihood of 2 different sets causing the exact same issue is longer odds than winning the lottery.

I know the vid sure sounds like valve train noise but is there any chance the noise is coming from elsewhere?? did you verify source(s) with a stethoscope?
Maybe timing chain slapping the case or even the distributor not properly seated? Is there lots of oil at the rockers when you pull the Valve Cover?
Something has to be seriously messed up to cause that much noise.

I once had a bad bottom end knock going on at #4, thought for sure I was in for a new bottom end.
Then the clutch started slipping and as I needed the ride but didn't have time for engine R&R, I tossed in a fresh disc & PP.
I did find springs in the bottom of bell housing on disassembly, and once all back together, my "rod" knock disappeared too.
Shocked the heck out of me, but just goes to show, sometimes, noises can travel and send one down the wrong rabbit hole.

And just for moment I wanted to question that head from China, maybe not machined to exactly the correct height or ???
Then again, IIRC, noise was present prior to head replacement.

Out of curiosity, how did it run before the engine was rebuilt?

Sorry, just ran out of straws to grasp at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burntboot

Sorry, just ran out of straws to grasp at.

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And that's where I am. I get interested in things like this and can usually get to the bottom of these issues pretty quick. Unfortunately It's not here for me to play with, so all I can do is speculate. And like you said, sounds can transmit from other locations, so I don't have a lot of faith in my gut. But based on that noise in the video, it's the only thing that can think of. Bottom line? Somebody needs to start ruling things out. Checking lash isn't all that difficult, so I'd recommend checking that 1st (because it sure sounds like valve train noise to me).

Speaking of hard to diagnose sounds, I've had similar experiences. I was chasing a noise once that I was sure had to be a wrist pin, but ended up being a defect inside the alternator. I figured that out only after running it without belts. Another time I found a loose torque converter that was rattling and it sounded like a rod knock. At this point it all boils down to process of elimination. Check the easy stuff 1st and work your way down to the more difficult things. Tim

PS: I could be wrong on some points I made regarding lifters, but this is the way I understand things. Regarding pre-pumping, I used to always pre-pump SB Chev lifters as those rockers are adjustable. We'd start the engine with all the valves a little loose, back off the rocker nut until it made a racket, slowly tighten just until the racket stopped, then tighten an additional 3/4 turn. This would put the piston part of the lifter near the middle of it's range.

Burnboot, this issue has been here since the motor was installed after the rebuild.

I also noticed the cylinder closest to the front of the van had some oil on it, may explain my misfire. I don't think the spark plug tube rings ever get replaced so I ordered a set to see if that fixes it.

Tim, its almost as if the lifters are not getting "pumped up". When they are at the base of the came they are all squishy feeling. If I am reading your response right then that shouldn't happen? Here is a video I took when I was first delving into this issue last year. It's like the lifters aren't getting oil at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...;v=FLhAgjeWyK0

Okay, so that's really weird. I don't recall seeing that video before so I went back and sure enough there it was on page 2 (somehow I missed it before now) :dizzy:.

I couldn't recall seeing lifter pistons so easily compressed so I grabbed some new ones and tried to compress them. The Federal Mogul brand I have are rock solid and will not compress unless extreme pressure is applied. I also have some new Engine Tech brand so I checked those and found they are easy to push and will spring right back (consistent with your video). So, my conclusion is lifters vary (a lot) from brand to brand. That being said I'd have to assume the play you're experiencing is normal for that brand (at least when new & dry -but- once they are full of oil they should be much more solid). If the van was previously running, even if you are able to manually compress, oil should be coming out the rocker arm (at least the 1st couple times you push after engine shut-off).

So this makes me think you may be correct suspecting an oiling problem........perhaps a blocked oil passage somewhere??? If you can't verify oil comes out when manually compressing, then I'd start the engine with the valve cover off. If the lifters are getting oil your rockers will spray oil like crazy (like enough to empty your engine of oil in minutes). So, before you do that, rig up some sort of shield and take precautions to minimize the mess. When you start the engine oil should start spraying out of all the rockers almost immediately. It will likely be extremely messy, so only run it long enough to verify oil comes out of all rockers.........especially the ones that were easy to push. If there are any that don't spray oil, then I'm thinking it's an oil starvation issue.

I'm assuming the engine has oil pressure and you've previously verified that............right? If not check that 1st. Tim

I seriously think it spun a cam bearing. I mentioned this a while back after watching this video the first time it was posted. My dad bought a used Ford Bronco II with a solid lifter 2.8 V6 that had valve noise due to heavily warn lash adjusters. The dealer said they would pay to have them replaced. We replaced the adjusters at the shop I worked at as a teenager only to have them wear again pretty quickly. After running it with a valve cover off it was quickly obvious that oil was not flowing to those valves and after consulting a lubrication diagram figured out that those valves were all connected to the same cam bearing. Oil was getting to the cam but the oil hole in the bearing wasn't aligned with the oil gallery in the block cutting off the flow to some of the valves. I would definitely agree with Tim on starting it with the valve cover off but I would think you should be able to produce enough pressure to check this flow just by cranking it with the ignition disabled. Maybe a little less messy that way.

I just reread the post just after you got it home and the sound miraculously went away but then came back. Maybe there is some debris clogging the oil gallery that moved at some point. If you confirm no oil flow to those lifters, maybe you could remove them and crank the engine to pump oil through and try to flush it out while the lifter isn't in the bore covering the oil port.

If you verify there's oil pressure, but no flow through some (or all) of the lifters/rockers, let me know and I'll dig a 4y block out (I have a bare 4y block buried in storage) and I'll map the path oil flows for you. Armed with this information you'll know where to look. I agree with Original that something like a spun or misaligned cam bearing could be to blame. Could also be a piece of debris stuck in a passage hole somewhere.........Tim

Wow, what a story. Terrence has really done such a great job documenting all of this not to even mention his persistence, Kudos to you for sure. With my recently purchased 86LE having a knocking sound when cold forced me to read this entire thread. Clearly not a chatter noise like Terrence but more of a nasty knock but goes away after she warms up. 268K on the engine.

I guess my question would be, after reading this entire thread, does anyone think that maybe purchasing a new engine would have had better results? I found a couple of fork lift engine firms here that sell 4Y's long block. If they are the same engine as ours maybe?????

https://store.intellaliftparts.com/p...030-23340.html
and here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4Y-NEW-Fork...4383.l4275.c10

Just thinking out loud. Man, I am tired for Terrence just reading all of this. This guy has stamina. Need a job???:wnk: How I would love to hire guys like you.

MT - Fork lift engines are the same (4Y) but the internals are different. That and fork lift parts are more expensive.
There are no "new" engines. Toyota hasn't had a long block in stock for over 10yrs
The only options out there are rebuilt engines. Like all things, a rebuild is only as good as the sourced parts and labour that goes into it.
If you sell rebuilt engines for a living, would you be installing the best parts money can buy or the cheapest part the will work?
Unless you have someone you trust to do the rebuild, your best best is to do it yourself.

Terrance - any updates on this issue? would love to hear you finally solved it.

Thanks Burntboot:

Now that I did not know about fork lift engines having different inners.

Would you have any suggestions as to who you would recommend for a rebuilt 4Y?

Problem still persists. Last time I went to work on it the ECU wasn't getting power again. One of the relays comes loose every now and then and just needs to be fiddle with. So I haven't started the van to see if oil is pumping in the head yet. I picked up a 98' dodge mini van for dirt cheap and have been working on it in the mean time. I kinda sunk a bit when I transferred the insurance over to it from the Toyota van. It has been really cold in around here lately and I am just waiting for a warmer day to mess with it again. It is looking like I am going to have to pull the cam to inspect bearings though, so I have just been putting it off.

My my my, what a pity. Chapel Hill huh, hmmmmm. Man if I had some spare time I would fly up to check this out with you. But even here in Florida it is so cold I am not sure the Lycoming engine in the plane would even turn with oil like molasses anyway.

So the beat goes on in search for best place for rebuilt 4Y engines. I did find these guys last night. Would like to here from Burntboot on this.

http://remanns.com

As for my knock exhausted my efforts to find any more on this on TVT. I will start a new post on this if anyone has any input.

Stay warm everyone!

MT - A heavy knock when cold that disappears as it warm is usually caused by piston slap.
Piston slap can occur for a very long time with no apparent repercussions, then again it can also break piston skirts when really bad.
Before declaring it terminal it wouldn't hurt to do an engine flush, it may not help at all but its worth trying as it is one of the cheapest things once can do.
Also pay attention to the oil and filter your using, synthetic is great stuff but on an old engine with noises I would use a quality Dino oil.
As crazy as it sounds, I also use OEM filters, for the very reason that I have had issues with AM stuff even the supposedly high end stuff.

On my Suzuki, I picked up some A/M filters dirt cheap (good name, good rep)
First one went on and I immediately had issues with the timing chain tensioners bleeding down.
I swapped out the filter for OEM and all the noises went away and then I threw out the 3 other cheapie's.
Sometimes I have to relearn lessons, but is usually sticks the 3rd or 4th time around :)

As far as reman places, I have no idea.
Murphy was a close relative and I seem to have inherited his genes.
Every time I get a remained part I have issues, so I have gotten into the habit of doing everything myself or going new.

As far as what parts to use, I am a fan of factory stuff as it is brainless (right stuff that fits everytime)
If availability/cost is a factor then research Tim's blog where he details a 4Y rebuild, the parts he used and the problems he ran into.
Sadly, there is no "easy" solution.

If you are going to go with a rebuilder, ask around and talk to everyone you know (in person, preferably) and find out their experiences.
And if you have no friends to ask, try going where the gear heads get together for coffee.
Most people will be more than willing to share experiences, once you get some recommendations, go to those shops, meet the owners/staff and get a feel for them.
If you want to spend serious coin and the owner isn't willing to give a shop tour, thats a red flag for me.
Insurance regulations are always cited, but a shop that does good work and is proud of their product is going to be happy to show you why your money is best spent at their establishment.
Don't be intimidated but do be friendly. And when you do find the right shop, treat them well.
What I mean is, if your dropping by to check on progress, take enough coffee for the staff, maybe some donuts or cookies too.
You will be amazed at the dividends those little courtesies can provide.

Generally speaking an engine is an engine and a competent rebuilder will be able to work on anything.
Most of the problems occur when time is the driving factor, thats why doing it yourself can yield a better end product.
By doing it yourself you will take the time to do everything right even if it means wasting an hour or 2, the rebuilder won't.
I have seen newly rebuilt engines with broken rings, rings misaligned, wrong gaskets, ... the list is endless.
He's not going to chase threads, use never seize where appropriate, replace incidentals while its easy (like that little hose under the intake...)
Thats not saying you can't get a quality rebuild, I just have no idea where to find one.

The only suggestion I can make is don't price shop your rebuild.
If the going rate is $3000 and you find one for $2000 you gotta ask yourself where they are saving the money.
They only care that it lasts as long as the warranty and even if there is a problem, they will start with blaming the installer, thats just the way it goes.
Saving a thou is useless if you end up with more problems than you started with.
And you don't want something that will last for 1-2 yrs, you're likely wanting something that will last another 300K

All these potential issues are why many people go with JDM engines, they are a good option if you can find one, but they are getting harder to find.
Importers are in business, they bring in what sells and there isn't a lot of demand for 4Y's any more.
BB

And the other thing to consider about a cold engine knock, don't overlook the possibility of a cracked exhaust manifold.
The don't always exhibit as an exhaust leak, sometimes they will present as a loud knock that goes away as it warms (manifold expands and crack closes)
It is NOT an uncommon problem on TV's, so very much worth investigating.
BB

Thanks BB:


This van sat in a barn for 20 years. The previous owner is pretty sharp. Before storage he drained all the gas out, ran the system dry then with a tad of lubricant. He topped the oil, meat ball, and transmission. Then every 3 to 4 months he would move the van back and forth about 50 feet to keep thinks wet. Cranked motor with starter.
Fuel pump, filter, starter, alternator, water pump, and radiator replaced after taking it out of moth balls.

When he took it out she started right up with no issues. Not sure if the knock was there before or when he took it out. I can ask. We have a running dialogue as I make the van ready for every day use.

He had a head gasket failure about 120K ago so in doing that he also replaced the rings and bearings.

He was a fanatic about maintenance. So much so that he installed a Hobbs meter so he could track time and milage for Oil changes.

He also used special hydraulic fluids for all the brakes similar to 5150 we use in airplane.

I think the van needs motor mounts now since it vibrates a lot when kicked into reverse when cold. He told me they were original.

As for rebuilding, I don't have the luxury of time to do it. I would love to but owning 3 corporations does not give that space.

I bought two of these when they were new in 1986 and 1988. They were both the best driving machine I ever had and I have had a bunch. But the vans were part of my company and when I sold they went with it. So I know the potential of the vehicle and that is why I want to get it back.

I don't have a problem sinking some dollars into a good rebuild. I thought I was doing better thinking that I could buy new from the fork lift guys but you put an end to that wish.

I am not sure if flushing would help since the past owner was so annal. He always used Castrol 10/30 all these years and replaced it all again before we shipped it to Florida.

So I thought of going Mobil 1 but you say I should look at Dino. What is that? Sorry, not in my word lib yet.

Thanks so much for you insight. I will no doubt replaced the motor one day for sure. I budgeted for that. Just reading Terrance's thread made me realize I should study this a great deal.

Thank you so much
MyToy

Given that info, I think you need to diagnose your actual problem before you jump to a conclusion about the engine's integrity.

A stethoscope is an indispensable and cheap tool for diagnosing noises.
Once you figure out where the noise is the loudest, you can formulate an appropriate attack plan.

Here's hoping its just the exhaust manifold, you'd be amazed at how much they can sound like an internal engine knock.
BB

I'd be suspecting the rebuilder used tones of cheap hylomar or other instant gasket in the place of factory seals. I've taken a fair few engines apart after "rebuilds" and found tonnes of sealant clogging up oil ways and filters. have you pulled the sump and found any evidence of this? it would explain the huge valve clearance. even with an incorrect cam profile, pushrod length or bent rocker you should still have an acceptable clearance if the lifters are getting oil pressure. it just will result in less lift! I can only think it's an oil pressure issue at the lifters.

Thanks BB

I will try to get some further diagnostics complete before she goes into the paint shop for her face lift this week.

Along with the stethoscope I will also use Tim's tool of pulling the spark plugs to see if one cylinder responds to that.

As for the exhaust manifold leak, I am not sure except to just pull it, although I may be able to hear it with the stethoscope.
My IA has one and has a lot of experience with it. I will give him a call today and ask him. Will keep you posted.

MT

BB:

One more thing, you did not respond to my question on what was Dino. Can you educate me on that?

MT

dino: slang for non-synthetic motor oil - regular old plain motor oil
btw: if you google "what is dino motor oil?" you get the answer right away

been real interesting reading this thread - lots of knowledgable insight for engine noise.

OMG regular motor oil?????

Yea know on the aviation side of the equation things are much more precise due to the FAA having their nose into everything.
In fact, I cannot even change one screw in the entire aircraft without a field approval. So when we speak TV's I tend to come down to earth (no pun intended) a bit.
Thanks I will stay away from Mobil 1 then.

Thanks!

MT

Hello all and Hi Terrance..
I am very new to this forum though over the past few months i have been read many articles and benefited from the wealth of knowledge here whilst trying to understand better the two vans i now own - especially after having various common problems over the time i've owned them.
Im writing because ive been reading this thread -and though i have only a very basic understanding of these vehicles - i thought id offer an experience ive just recently been through with my van;
Basically the Head gasket went on my 88 Space cruiser which was running sweetly beforehand though it was losing water somewhere (which i now realise was probably the early signs of the head gasket going) and i was foolishly careless and forgot to top the coolant up before a long journey and it cooked.
But obviously this is not the usefull part with regards to this tapping/ticking/knocking problem happening here..

So.. i had the head gasket replaced by a highly recommended work shop and it was what was found after doing this that i thought might be of interest -
Basically i got the van back and it was not the same sweet - purring engine as i had before and it was now idling badly - stuttering and struggling and MUCH louder than i remembered with a tapping/ sound a bit like what i heard in your video.
I took the van back to the garage and said something wasnt right and it was not like this before ( in all fairness they couldnt have known how sweet it was before i suppose) So they investigated further and diagnosed a warped/corroded/ damaged 'Inlet manifold' i believe it was?? (sorry if that's wrong) This is where i must apologise that i dont exactly know what was the problem nor can i describe it visually because i never even saw it.. but all i know is it fixed the problem completely and now the van purrs like a kitten and is a real joy to behold - thank GOD .. it all cost me £1500 all together!
So as i understand what was explained to me was this-- Theres two parts attached together which when doing the head gasket they only had to take off as one single piece - (and so didnt diagnose this problem at first he said) I think im right in saying it was the inlet manifold??
Which the exhaust manifold attatches to?? ( i think?)
Anyway.. i think it was that and we had to order a brand new one and the part alone cost around £260 brand new. It was the cause of both the bad idling and the loud noise and the ticking/tapping sound ( as someone mentioned a cracked exhaust manifold?) But im pretty sure this wasnt the exhaust manifold on mine.. (though they told me that one of the Exhaust manifold bolts had sheared off and still is missing i believe) But whatever this thing they replaced totally cured everything and you wouldnt believe how different it is now to how it came out after the head gasket. I wish i knew more so i could speak more accurately about it. But i think it was the 'Inlet manifold'??
Does that sound possible to anyone?
Sorry if this is nonsense
And i hope you find the cure.
All the best
Regards,

Interesting story Sharn:

After digesting what BB and Kyle had to say and knowing I must do some better diagnostics for the knock issue I decided to contact the owner I purchased the van from. Since he did the previous work on the engine I thought he may be able to shed some light on all of this. This is what he came back with:

"The piston rings were std size installed on the original pistons. No boring of the cylinders was done. I did lightly hone to the cylinders to allow for break in of chrom moly rings. There was no cylinder ridges when I took out the pistons other than a light carbon build up.With the re-ring job I also replaced the rod bearings with again std size. I remember plastic gaging the rod bearings and they were within std size. The main bearings do need replacement since the oil pressure drops during idle. Low oil pressure during idle and normal pressure above 1500rpm is a classic symptom of a large gap in the bearing area. This is a push rod engine so the cam is in the block, I did not look at the camshaft to see what wear occurred there but there is no valve adjustment for the lifters and they don't make noise so the cam and cam bearings are probably alright. "

What I find interesting is the oil pressure comment. I was not aware of this pressure difference nor was I aware of any main bearing problems. Like I said, once she is warm the knocking goes away. He also mentioned in an earlier email that he believed the problem was piston slap for what that is worth.

We will do what BB suggested this weekend with the stethoscope to see if we can locate the knock.

If anyone wants to comment on this pressure information, please do. Since most of our vans are getting up there in miles this additional information may be helpful.

Again, thanks to all of you.

Mt - A lot of what was said rings true till you get to that last comment about oil pressure.

Toyota's of this era are known to be bullet proof, there are no "bottom end issues".
While a drop in oil pressure at idle CAN be an indication of loose bearings, that would only apply if using a true mechanical gauge and reading actual oil pressure.
But if we are talking about low oil pressure as per the dash gauge then it becomes a whole different ball of ear wax.
This is a classic symptom of the sender, they get tired over time and consistently read low at idle, the cure is to replace the sender or ignore pressure at idle.

Back in th '80's we had a blow up party on a RWD corolla, thing was trashed from bumper to bumper and we felt it a fitting end.
We did everything to that poor little motor, drained the oil , drained the coolant best we could do was get it to seize but the damned thing would always restart after cooling down. We did manage to grenade it, but it took an entire can of ether, at full throttle!

Back in the mid '90's Jag had so many customers complain about the (oil pressure) issue they brought out a "fix" which consisted of a new sender and in-line resistor.
Essentially they turned it into an idiot light that displayed as the gauge at 1/2 way.
Stupid in my mind, but the customer is always right, even when they're wrong.

That said, I suspect you are overthinking the issue, and I should know, as I always overthink everything :)
Cheers
BB

BB:

When he says main bearings is he talking about the bearings on the connecting rod to the crank shaft or is he talking about the bearings that hold the crank shaft in the block?

I may just go put a real good oil pressure gauge on it and see what the pressure differential is with that. Great idea.

MT

Main bearings would indeed be crank to block, sounds like he already replaced rod bearings (rod to crank).
The upper end of the rod has a press fit pin that retains the piston.

Thanks BB, so the ones in the piston are wrist pins right? At least that is what they call it in the airplane side.

Let's hope I can find the noise on top.

BB:

Just an update. We did verify the knock is piston slap. It was not any of the other symptoms you suggested.
So I did what you said and went through a long interview process with several people here in Daytona Beach that do engine work. Tons to pick from here at Dayton of course. Man you were so right. Some of these places I would not be able to tell you what was the floor and what was the bench. However others were like hospital environments. I found the biggest input was the owner and their response to all of my questions. I found one that clearly out performed all others. Instead of telling me to junk the TV, he did a very intensive look through to see just what the project would involve. He replaces about 200 engines a year so has some pretty good background on the art.

He also told me that his local machine shop that works with him does a great job but is slow and costly. Typically about $2500. Then there is rest of the transplant.
He recommended a place that sells Remanufactured engines he has used before. I asked him about their work and parts quality and told me that he has not taken them apart but the ones that he has installed went well with no problems, came with a 5 year or unlimited mile guarantee . He believed with this track record and the guarantee it was worth checking it out. So I will reach out to them for pricing.

So it looks like we will move on engine replacement along with all the other goodies at the same time.

Thanks for the help and will keep you posted.

MT

Long time, no see. So I finally dug out the screw driver bit I dropped in the engine earlier this year. Toyota had no intention of you taking the oil pan off when the engine is installed apparently. After 1.5 hours trying to find the bit it was hidden in a bunch of black gunk that I have no idea where came from. This engine only has 500 miles on it and I had changed it after I did the head gasket. I checked the oil pump and it's doing its job so next step is to follow the oil and see why it's not getting to the top end. And I just realized I don't have a radiator fan shroud, might explain why it was over heating..

https://i.imgur.com/QyqBzLn.jpg

Terrence,

After giving it some thought, I agree with the previous poster who suggested your cam bearings may be installed incorrectly. When those are pressed into the block, it's critical the oil holes line up with the holes in the block. If they are not lined up, the result would be no oil to the top end. I have personally never seen this done (so didn't think of that initially), but it makes the most sense to me. Unfortunately this will not be easy to remedy and will likely require the engine be removed. Good luck. Tim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timsrv

Terrence,

After giving it some thought, I agree with the previous poster who suggested your cam bearings may be installed incorrectly. When those are pressed into the block, it's critical the oil holes line up with the holes in the block. If they are not lined up, the result would be no oil to the top end. I have personally never seen this done (so didn't think of that initially), but it makes the most sense to me. Unfortunately this will not be easy to remedy and will likely require the engine be removed. Good luck. Tim

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How would you inspect that, aside from just pulling the thing apart?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terrence

How would you inspect that, aside from just pulling the thing apart?

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http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...d/IMG_1535.jpg

The big hole on the left is where your cam goes. If you look close you can see the oil hole in the bearing (there's another hole in the block that lines up with that). When a block gets hot-tanked, the cam bearings and soft plugs are removed. Afterwards new cam bearings and soft plugs are installed. They install the first few from the front and the last couple from the back, then they install a soft plug in back of the engine that blocks future access. With the engine is installed your transmission would be blocking access to that rear plug and the rear cam bearings.

After further thought, I don't think this would explain your issue because those holes only supply oil to the cam bearings. The top end gets it's oil from the lifters. The lifter bores also have oil holes. These line up with the smaller diameter of the lifter, then enter the lifter through holes in that smaller diameter section. After that the oil passes through the lifters, goes up-through the push-rods and sprays out through the holes in the rockers. Sorry about the false alarm, just sort of thinking out loud. I'm really hoping you get this figured out. You've certainly put enough blood sweat and tears into this project. Tim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timsrv

Tim

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Thanks for the input Tim; do the lifters get their supply through a channel in the block?

Yes, the lifter bores in the block all have oil holes. These line up with the smaller diameter section in the middle of each lifter. Each lifter has an oil hole in the side of this smaller diameter section. After that the oil passes through the lifters it goes up-through the push-rods and sprays out through the holes in the rockers.

Terrance - I am not sure how you have managed to keep your sanity this long, 2.5yrs without resolution is maddening.
I am not sure I would have had the tenacity to stay with it this long.

Looking at that puddle in that oil pan looks vaguely familiar.
It's been bugging me all day but from reading your entire thread, twice, it finally twigged.

There are a couple of things that stand out from the story, to recap:

Post #1 "Well, I have decided that the strange engine noises within the motor finally warrant a tear down"
Post #5 "The entire lower and upper intake manifolds were covered in this black sludge"
Post#48 "One thing that really caught my attention when I pulled the head was that there is a lot of carbon build up on the pistons for a motor with only 600 miles on it."
Post #111 "After 1.5 hours trying to find the bit it was hidden in a bunch of black gunk that I have no idea where came from. This engine only has 500 miles on it and I had changed it after I did the head gasket."

But I keep landing on Post #7.
"That residue looks suspiciously like the result of a leaky cold start injector. Tim"

I cannot find any reference of you having verified the status of the cold-start injector.

Fuel contaminated oil will wash out the compression rings (making for low compression), it can cause excessive wear (old camshaft?) it can cause lifters to "bleed down" when sitting (as the viscosity is so low it just runs out of the lifters), sludge build up, poor running, misfires, stumbles, hard starts and overheating are all potential complications.
Best of all, in a fairly tight engine, oil pressure can appear to be within spec!

I think it might be worthwhile taking a look at the fuel system and see if there is a potential problem lurking there.
If nothing else, it will give you a break from tearing apart the valve train :)

I'll consider anything at this point. Unfortunately we completely missed fall here in the South East and its been 40* and raining all week so I haven't had a chance to tinker with it. But thanks for the input.

I went ahead and pulled a lifter and spun the oil pump and, well as you can see nothing happens. I am assuming oil should be coming up through this hole?

I shot this while turning the oil pump with my drill:

https://i.imgur.com/tkBtocU.gifvhttps://i.imgur.com/tkBtocU.gifv

I've never tried it like that before (never had a need too), but assuming the pump intake is submerged in oil AND there's pressure to other parts of the engine, then yes, there should be oil squirting sideways into that lifter hole. Tim