Roger that VanCo. Today should be an interesting day. They have had the van now for 7 weeks:pissed:. And they are still lost.
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Roger that VanCo. Today should be an interesting day. They have had the van now for 7 weeks:pissed:. And they are still lost.
Occasionally I'll run into something odd that stumps me. If/when I find myself in that spot, I've discovered it to be very valuable having parts vans around. If you have that luxury, then I'd recommend swapping parts. Swapping of parts may be a form of cheating, but in those rare times I've resorted to that, it's helped me figure things out very quickly. If you don't have a parts van around, then not such a good strategy as some of these parts are very expensive (if you can find them).
If you do have another van with these parts, I'd probably start by swapping the distributor (with the coil in it), then move to the igniter, then the ECU. Although it doesn't seem likely to be these parts, they all control some aspect of your your ignition system, so any or all could be suspect. Tim
Yea, it may get to that Tim. I was busy yesterday and did not have a chance to check in with them. I think they are getting tired of the job. His last comment after I relayed VanCo input on the matter was they were checking the electrical signal on the #3 injector. Then he texted me and told me he was checking the EFI resistor, what ever that is. But I am gravitating to your comments. I don't have any of the old parts, it was 4 months ago I did this. So I guess I will have to pull the ECU out and get the part number and see if I can find one. As for the rest of the goodies I can still buy from RockAuto I guess.
EFI resistor, huh, anyone ever here of that? I will check the Service Manual. Maybe I can find something in there on it.
Thank all of you. We will get this and we will all know what to do should it occur again.
MT
Just found it. He is nuts. They are in series with each batch of injectors. The problem is that the plugs are always wet with fuel. So they must be at least turning on, why would he even think this would be a suspect? I don't know.:no:
MT
injector stuck open?
The resistors are there to ohms match the low impedance injectors to the ECU injector drivers.
If a resistor is bad it usually creates an open circuit and the corresponding injector won't open.
A stuck injector can either be mechanical (e.g. pintle stuck) or electrical. If an injector driver was bad it would affect other injectors since it's batch fire.
It is simple to diagnose. Disconnect power to the injectors and coil and crank. Pull plugs, if all cylinders are dry except #3, then #3 is mechanically stuck. If all are dry, there still could be a trigger issue. They could swap injector plugs to see if they can get a different cylinder to act like the problem one. Since it's batch fire swapping them for diagnostics isn't a big deal.
This whole thing seems silly to me. With the proper tools, knowledge, and a standard "flow chart" this shouldn't take more than a few hours to diagnose. These van, though they look weird, are still regular internal combustion 80's EFI vehicles. There are no flux capacitors, and it isn't powered by a Mr fusion.
I really do wish you luck.
Yep, I am with you on this all the way. A bit of deductive reasoning should have nailed this. I have this crap feeling that I will be driving it away on 3 pistons and doing it myself.
They have over 1K into now and there is no way I am paying a nickel.
Thanks guys, will keep you posted, great input
MT
Still putting me off. They said I need to replace these also. Never saw these before. He said they are on most 2.0 engines spark plugs. Can anyone tell me what these are called?
MT
Spark plug tubes/gaskets. They pull right out if the spark plugs are out. If you haven't replaced the gaskets, they're probably dried up and hard/cracked and worth replacing since they may leak and should be very cheap--mine came with a valve cover gasket set. Toyota part #90430-31141. I don't know of any reason to replace the tubes themselves, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MyToy
That's a spark plug tube, Toyota P/N 11191-22010, and the black o-ring at the top is the spark plug tube gasket, Toyota P/N 90430-31141. (Same part numbers for all vans, all years.)
Gwen
The tubes are held in place by the spark plug. If the spark plug is over-torqued the aluminum part of the tube under the spark plug gets squished and can tear out. If/when they leak oil into the tube, excessive oil build-up inside the tube can interfere with spark, causing a rough running issue. If the bottom area where the plug grabs is damaged replace the entire tube. If that's okay, then just replace the o-rings where the top of the tube seals to the head. TimQuote:
Originally Posted by eightysnix
PS: The tubes should be flat on the bottom. The one in the picture (above) looks like it's tore up on the bottom (classic issue caused by over torquing the plug). For this reason I like the older style plugs with the bigger base (13/16" instead of 5/8").
Thank you everyone. Thanks Gwen, these tubes cannot be purchased by way of normal places. I did find them at a fork lift site. Thank you so much for getting me the part numbers.
Still no word on Cylinder #3. All suggestion have been checked including timing and cam. I think they have just put her aside and doing nothing. I was able to see #3 plug and it looks like it came right out of the box as new. Shinny and clean with no activity. How could this possibly happen? Tons of spark, tons of air, and tons of fuel and only on #3 and not on its matching batch plug #1.
So so disappointing. The van is about 85% finished and now a major delay:doh:
This is one mystery we will all learn from.
MT
I'm not sure if it's been covered (usually ruled out in the beginning of the misfire flow chart), but misfires can be caused by vacuum leaks. Basically too much air sneaking in throwing off the air fuel ratio. There are three places a vacuum leak can occur that will impact a single cylinder on these engines. The gasket where the plenum meets the intake, the gasket where the intake meets the head, and the injector where it seats into the intake.
There are several ways to test for this. My favorite is a tool that pressurizes and introduces smoke to the intake system. Wherever the smoke is escaping, there is a leak.
VanCo:
How unbelievable you just mentioned this. I just built one of these with a pickle jar, an old soldering iron and some hoses. I own a Porsche 911 with the old CIS injection system. Air box is alway a worry should it crack during any backfire. So I built one of these over the weekend and did the same thing. Closed off all areas to the outside world and pumped it up with a bicycle pump. found 3 leaks, Injector, Elbow hose, and rubber coupler.
Question is where would we stick it into the system. It would have to after #3 injector and before it hits the intake valve. Not sure about that, any thoughts?
Here is a pic of my smoker.
One is static and the other is after 5 minutes the iron is on. You can see the smoke build up. I used an old sock and baby oil
MT
That's awesome!
You could use that smoke leak detector. Try removing the intake boot and plugging the throttle body. Hook the detector up to the brake booster vacuum line, or pcv valve. If a leak is large the bike pump may work. You might need more flow though. Possibly an air mattress pump? I use an air compressor with regulated low pressure. If you do pump more pressure in, take off the oil cap. The blow by past the cylinders can create excessive crank case pressure and blow seals.
Since I have a turbo I have run a version of this method to 15psi to look for boost leaks. You shouldn't really have to build any pressure, and if you do, only go to 5psi max (plus who knows what a pickle jar can handle).
Oh, if your smoke ends up just going straight out of the exhaust, that means the engine is positioned so that one of the cylinders has its valves overlapping. Just give the engine a 1/8 or so turn and it should be good.
we used to install pop off valves in the airbox when i worked at the Porsche shop way back....Quote:
Originally Posted by MyToy
Yes, I am very familiar with the pop off. I have one and never installed it. I am just so scared of cutting a hole that big into my airbox. But I think now is the time. My leak was from the rubber elbow that spans the fuel distributer to the air box. I purposely keep the hose clamps loose so in the event it back fires the rubber elbow blows off. It has worked for 30 years. But I lose performance so I am thinking I will install it now.
Latest on the van. NOTHING!!!!!!!! I told them about VanCo's idea and told them I already had the smoker. They don't take my suggestions very well, but if they don't get it by the weekend, I am going to drive her out of there on 3 cylinders and do it myself.
They only work on it now if they have little work, so I am shelved half the time.
Thanks again to all of you.
MT
I'm late to the party and I read the spark plugs were wet and they put in new injectors so I'm most likely wrong...but I had the same problem after my rebuild and it was a clogged injector. Hope I don't send you on a wild goose chase. Good luck and I really hope it gets figured out.
I think that has been covered a few times now. They are new but who knows. The amount of stuff done this week is mind boggling. They mentioned something about the timing of the injectors upon key start. Then they thought is was a bad ground to chassis. So they replaced the minus battery cable. It was 5 ohms they said. But of course why would that have anything to do with why on cylinder is not firing? Then they said they found a splice issue. Well the only thing I can think is spliced are the new connectors on the new injectors. Then they felt that there was too much emissions from one spark plug wire causing interference. OH BOY. So new plug wires and dist cap replaced with is really OK, have to start swapping out stuff as per Tim's suggestion.
So I really don't know how it was left Friday. I was to busy at work to be concerned.
So tomorrow morning will be a fact finding mission. I will go over here and see what the hell is going on. What a joke.
Hey, I know this is a stupid question but do you think the injectors are polarized?
Wouldn't that be goof if they were and they reversed one. I really doubt it. Maybe they are diode blocked.
Will keep all posted on this one.
Thanks again
MT
I don't think polarity matters. I've always hooked them up exactly like Toyota did "just because", but I've test fired them both ways. In testing there was no noticeable difference in current draw or spray pattern regardless of polarity. Tim
Thanks Tim. Well I will cross that one off. We will see in the morning.
Let's see, you are in the north west right.
About 6 AM your time look to the south east. If you see a bright ball of fire, That's me.:pissed:
MY
Looks like the mystery has been found with the fuel.
You may all want to do this.
The van was stored for 25 years. The owner was very careful when storing.
Loading up oil and fluids. Draining fuel tank, cleaning and then preserving the inside with some kind of preservative product. He was an engineer for Pratt and Whitney .
All fuel lines were drain and blown out with compressor.
After engine rebuild 6 months ago cylinder 3 went bad.
They said inject 3 bad. Replaced all injectors. Ran for 15 minutes and went bad again. Only this time cylinder was always wet (fuel). After looking at everything and testing everything include all the suggestions here, there was no conclusion. Then when he took the injectors out for the 4th time he saw this. The one half way covered is#4 and the one fully covered is #3.
Rust city. From where???? New filter installed after engine rebuild. Why only 3 and 4?
Turns out that the fuel pressure regulator is positioned just in front of injector feeding pipe and filter. Took regulator out and it was dirty with rust. Cut it in half and it all just poured out. This was the one area that did not get drained or blown. The rust went into the pipe an hits 4 first then 3. # three was so loaded with rust it stayed open causing it to be wet.
4 still got some but not enough to screw things up. 1 and 2 had none. I had a new regulator. It is all being finished today after they re-blew the lines clean again with the 4th intake manifold gasket.
Should pick up by tomorrow.
I will tell all of you how it runs when I get it.:dance2:
Yes, your pics (above) are a very familiar sight to me. Diagnosing was a bit strange/troublesome, but without hands-on things can be hard to figure out. For some reason it's always #3 that gets plugged up 1st. For you (or anyone with this problem) I would highly recommend replacing the factory fuel filter with one like I put on. It's been covered in detail HERE. FWIW, with the factory filter mine was clogging #3 injector every 5k miles. After the filter mod I installed a pressure gauge to verify pressure/flow and I thought it would give me an indication of when the filter was beginning to clog. With the new filter, pressure remained constant and van ran good for 50k miles. Unfortunately #3 injector did eventually clog again (@50k miles), but considering it made it 10X longer, I considered it a success.
I think it's also possible I could have avoided (or at least prolonged) this issue had I changed filter elements on a more regular basis. Since the last episode I've begun replacing that filter element every 10k miles, but it's only been about 15k miles since then, so it will be at least 2 years before I hit the 50k mark again. Good luck. Tim
PS: As you can see in that thread (linked to previously in this post) the tank was cleaned thoroughly. The 1st clogging after that cleaning I attributed to rogue particles left over in the tank. After the next 3 episodes I started thinking there to be a hard caked-on residue inside my fuel lines. Each few hundred miles of constant flow likely dissolves and releases more particles into the system. On mine there is still ~3 feet of old steel line after the filter, and that could account for the last clogging of #3. Eventually I'm hoping this will clear itself up, but so far it's still been an issue (although much less after the filter mod). Tim
Thanks Tim:
Why not just stick another glass filter in place. I use that on my plane. It allows me to see the if any dirt or rust in in the fuel line. This one is very critical since 99.5% of all airplane crashes are due to fuel.
Each time in use it gets purged so it never has a molecule of dirt in it. But the glass filter really does a nice job.
I think I may just stick that in line as a safety getting that inject out is a SoB.
MT
If you can find one that's rated @ ~100 psi, then that could work. Our fuel systems are regulated to ~ 40 psi, but the pump is capable of much more. If the fuel pressure regulator fails, it's conceivable pressure could approach 100 psi, so I'd want my filter housing to be rated for at least this much. The filter system I'm using is rated for 200 psi. TimQuote:
Originally Posted by MyToy
Well Merry Christmas to all.
The Van has been picked up and is at least running. After 38 hours of labor and $780 in parts it runs on all 4. Started it up and the entire drivers seat shook so much it knocked the piss out of me (literately). I was so frustrated I just could not leave it there another month. Bunch of clowns. It seems to have all the power back, it is just the loud rush noise and vibration when given gas. I looked at it and it looks like it s a major exhaust lead under the driver seat. How could anyone return a vehicle to service like this?
Then there is the transmission. It is now jumping in and out of gears with throttle changes. Even when in over at 40mph and up. Then there is the idle that seems to gain as much as 500 rpm when at full operating temp. So still things to do that I will do myself. I will tap into the appropriate threads on these other subjects. At least it is home and will be given TLC.
Thanks to all
MT
Well I hope they didn't actually charge you for all that labor. FYI, I'm a technician by trade and run a repair business. If/when something throws me for a loop (like this obviously did them), after all is said and done I calculate how much the job should have been (based on hindsight). Since everything was new from the recent rebuild, I would probably have charged 6 hrs (and ate the rest). I consider losses like that to be incentive to become a better tech. If unnecessary parts were put on, if it's too labor intensive to retrieve them, I eat those too. It hurts, but IMO stupidity is supposed to hurt.
FWIW, Injector problems are pretty basic. Since your van had a recent rebuild, a seasoned tech with hands on should have been able to figure it out without lavish tests like checking timing on each cylinder (that's pretty much hard wired into these). But, because the van is odd, for a decent ASE tech not familiar with the van layout, I'd be generous and give them as much as 10 hrs. If they messed up other things during the very lengthy & unnecessary "troubleshooting", then I'd be livid. Tim
Thanks Tim:
Well no I have not paid them yet. The last time I went to pick it up I was so upset since it took them 4 weeks to put the injectors I I told them I would pay them the following week to give me drive time. They agreed and I never made it out of the lot. Now another 5 weeks have past and this is what I got. He told me to pay him what I thought was reasonable. Hmmm. Don't push me.
I went under neath to see if I could find this horrible noise and I found one fitting on the exhaust fitting that was leaking air. I could put my fingers around it and feel the the leak. But I think the noise is so bad it may be more. Transmission is also leaking now. Had them change the pan gasket and now a leak, not sure where yet.
And then there is the jumping in and out of gear deal.
So I will deal with all this. The van did not deserve such bad treatment. Here is a pic. I am building a show for the restoration that I will share when done.
Merry Christmas to all.