I just got home from a 1600 mile trip, on mile 200ish I turned the key and click... Tapping the starter is your best bet in this situation. It shocks the starter. Hope it works out. It worked out for me I made it all the way
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I just got home from a 1600 mile trip, on mile 200ish I turned the key and click... Tapping the starter is your best bet in this situation. It shocks the starter. Hope it works out. It worked out for me I made it all the way
replaced the starter, apparently advanced auto parts has starters (if it breaks we'll replace it) type deal
i sometimes can start the van in PARK, but sometimes I have to start it in NEUTRAL and move it into PARK. (weird) might have to adjust that cable.
From the forklift dealership: there is a positive and a negative terminal, because the negative post is slightly smaller. I believe the negative terminal part number is the same but ends with a 1 instead of a 0. It has a black plastic piece on the bottom side, where as the positive has no plastic. They do not last long at all, i think they are aluminized copper, so if they get corroded, they almost always have to be replaced with the battery.Quote:
Originally Posted by timsrv
Quote:
Originally Posted by timsrv
Three weeks later, when I got the one click sound again, I couldn't believe that the starter had died again. I kept turning the key, and after about the 5th time, it started right up, no problem, and I moved parking spaces. The next morning, however, we had the same problem. Click, click, click, start. The lights never dimmed, and when it finally did crank it seemed to have full power. So all that day we were able to start it after turning the key several times. The next morning, however, we tried many more times than usual, but couldn't get it to start. So I got under the car and removed the small ignition wire with the plastic clip, and touched that connection on the starter to the big command terminal on the starter. Doing that, it has started every single time, no problem. The trouble is, I don't like to have to crawl under the van every time it won't start, in a grocery store parking lot or after getting gas.
Someone posted this for a 91 Previa. would this work on my 1988 van. I'm just trying to get it home to be able to diagnose the starter problem.
Thanks :)
Based on what you said it sounds as if the starter itself is fine. Probably bad/failing contacts in the ignition switch or perhaps a bad connection somewhere else in the trigger circuit. With intermittent issues, the problem areas typically drop (lose) voltage while under load. The starter solenoid needs at least 10.5 volts to reliably engage, so if this circuit loses any more than 3 volts, the starter will become unreliable or not function at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by eb4973
I was also experiencing this same issue on my 86, but every time I started troubleshooting, the problem would remedy itself (sometimes these issues will vary based on conditions or other factors & can be hard to track down). Since I knew the circuit was functional (just weak), and since voltage loss is directly proportional to load, I took the load off the circuit by installing a Bosch relay. Now all the trigger circuit needs to do is activate the coil of the relay (very small load) and the relay supplies power to the starter directly from the battery. I can't guaranty this will work for you, but it completely solved my problem. Before the relay mod this was happening about once a week. I installed the relay over a year/15k miles ago and the problem hasn't come back since. Good luck. Tim
Quote:
Originally Posted by timsrv
Hi Tim,
I guess I'm not asking the question in the best way. My van is stuck down the road. It is the starter issue with the single click sound when trying to turn it over. The first thing I want to do is get it home. I't may or may not start when I get back to where I left it. So I saw this information about a Previa that was started by:
"So I got under the car and removed the small ignition wire with the plastic clip, and touched that connection on the starter to the big command terminal on the starter."
I'm wondering if I can start my van this way if it wont turn over with the key. I'm just trying to get it home so I can fix it. I have no money so this is an emergency fix on the fly. I have another started that was pulled from an 84. I think if my starter is beat I can replace it with this one.
Thanks for your time, eb4973
So I'm confused.........if you are saying it used to start this way but now it doesn't :cnfsd:, then you may have 2 problems now. If applying power directly to the trigger wire stopped working, assuming all your cable connections/terminals are clean and tight, then now it has also become a problem with the starter........tough luck. So after you repair/replace your starter you'll still have the trigger wire circuit issue to deal with. Good luck. TimQuote:
Originally Posted by eb4973
PS: In re-reading I can't help but think I still don't get it. Are you talking about 2 different vehicles? If you're talking about a Previa, it doesn't matter. Although physically non-interchangeable, Previa and van starters function the same (same rules apply to both). If the jumper wire trick and/or banging on the housing doesn't work, then you'll either be pulling your starter in a parking lot or you'll be having it towed.
Add me to the list of can't figure it out. I'm about to by-pass the whole system. For the past year my van, that I've only been using on weekends, has had the click issue. I did what I always do and blamed the starter since that is exactly how the issue presents itself. Went from having to tap it gently once every 50 starts to having the beat it every other start. My free times been a little short the past six months and we do have another vehicle that runs fine so it was put on the back shelf.Quote:
Originally Posted by trestlehed
Yesterday I got around to replacing the starter. I pulled it and put in the new one with less then the usual amount of swearing. So that went pretty smoothly. Got out from under the van, hooked the battery back up and she fired over. Yeah, big smile on a job well done. So, I shut her down and went ahead and put all my tools away. Came out a few minutes later and "click". That's when the swearing really began. I've already apologized to the neighbors for the rapid and long string of expletives that followed.
I went to get my wife so she could crank it over while I tapped the BRAND NEW starter. One little baby tap and it kicked right over. Now I can't re-produce the issue. As you all know the issue will wait till the best time to present itself. I'm willing to bet that time will be when I'm up in the mountains fishing with not a sole around. My vans evil like that.
I didn't think to check the site until after I got the van fired back up and now I can't re-reproduce it to follow Tim's guide for diagnosing. I'm gonna go out and trace and volt meter what I can and see if I can find anything. And keep starting the van to see if I can re-produce to make my life easier with chasing this thing. Any ideas are welcome.
@trestlehed, the reason I quoted you was I'm to lazy to sign up for the other site and read your adventures. So how exactly did you bybass the system?
Thanks guys.
If you bypass the system, you will also be bypassing safety protocols. Probably not a big deal if you're the only one to drive, but bad things can happen if it's allowed to start while in gear. This is why I fixed mine by installing the Bosch relay (my post #41 this thread). I recently explained it in more detail on another thread:
http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...0678#post20678
Since you're having the same problem with a different (new) starter, this makes me think your problem is the ignition switch or perhaps an "accumulation" of losses in multiple parts of the circuit. This is the perfect scenario for the Bosch relay mod. Mine used to act up with about the same frequency as yours. Since adding the relay it hasn't acted up once......and that was over a year ago. Tim
BTW, if you haven't already, make sure your battery posts & all cable connections are tight and clean. The big cables should be checked for tightness/cleanliness at the other ends too (both positive and ground).
Quote:
Originally Posted by timsrv
Thanks for the input Tim. I should have pointed out that all posts where clean and tight. Grounds are oversized and clean and tight as well.
I was able to reproduce the issue just now. I went to the starter trigger wire and had my wife turn over the van. 11.85 at the trigger wire. Then I went to the ignition switch to check there. 11.85 and 11.95 so there within .1v of each other.
Thanks to your guide I'm pretty sure I just got a bad starter. Now to go yell at the auto parts store.
Thanks again man.
Yes, unfortunately these starter cores are getting old and even after "rebuild" they can be problematic. After experiencing this a few times myself, I actually consider the old OEM original units better than the rebuilds. This is why I recommend replacing the contacts & maybe the plunger rather than changing starters. If by chance new contacts and plunger don't solve, and you can verify correct trigger voltage (like you just did), only then will I give my OEM starter to the parts guy as a core........just pull your new parts out of it before letting them have it :wnk: Good luck. Tim
So happy I got to rip out this starter bypass hackjob today!!! Having to push in a finnicky high current switch every time I started the van was getting old. Tim's lengthy post in this thread was very helpful.
Attachment 5696Attachment 5697Attachment 5698
I had to make up a wire that goes from the harness to the small signalling connector on the starter. I am not too satisfied with using disconnects/spade connectors like I did though. Feels kind of flimsy. Does anyone know where I can get the male end of these connectors? Pick n pull my only option? This is probably an obvious answer but some quick web searching and a trip to the auto parts store didn't yield anything. I have circled said connector in the photo. Thanks!
Attachment 5699
I've had this same problem of the starter only occasionally working on 2 of my vans. Selenoid would click but starter would only crank if I jumpered a wire to it. Previous owner had one rigged up with a push button start. After tracing the circuit (provided by Tim, thanks), cleaning, temporarily bypassing fuses, pulling and checking neutral safety switch, etc., what seems to have worked is I left the rubber seals out of the connection to the neutral safety switch. I could be entirely wrong and something else was corrected in the process but it worked on both vans. It might be something worth trying (not too difficult) before you get too far involved. Jim Z
:whs:
Mine started acting up as well and the voltage drop was in a wire connected to the neutral safety switch, once the corroded wire was removed/replaced and all cleaned up the van is starting the way it should:dance2:
JDM
my van recently had intermittent starting issues. turning the key all the way to turn the engine over resulted in nothing but dash lights. moved the steering wheel mechanism up and down, checked the battery connections and inspected the ignition switch harness. only happened rarely and then got progressively worse. worrisome for my wife and kid getting stranded
it was the two electrical connections to the starter! the maintenance records i inherited with my van showed the valve cover gasket replaced couple years ago. there was some crusty goo on some of the underside of the van. i cleaned the connections to the starter with electrical cleaner and a brush.
all has been good since then!
That could have been the problem with mine and just working with the plug jostled the wires inside but I really didn't find corrosion anywhere - I cleaned anyway. Jim Z
p.s. tore the starter apart and cleaned contacts, tore into ignition, took apart fuse block (behind p.s. resevoir) etc. etc. etc. - click click no start - bang head, bang head:pissed::pissed::pissed:, go at it again and again and again - then it works with doing something simple :):):). Jim Z
i've done a lot of research recently on installing a bypass starter switch - to get a better power draw to the starter and as a theft deterrent. i think i roughly understand how to install myself:
do you just run an appropriate gauge wire from positive battery terminal into a push button / switch and then run another wire out of the switch to the big fat post of the starter? do you turn the key and flip switch simultaneously with this set up or just flip switch to start?
while its probably not 'safe' mine came with a remote starter switch and ive left it...you want to wire from fat terminal to switch back to smaller spade...when you unhook the trigger wire going to the starter spade the key no longer activates the starter..so keu to on then hit your remote button to start...problem is, the engine will crank anytime the button is pushed regardless of key on or off..
Tim, mind if I ask the length/gauge of wire you used? What about the lugs, what size are those? seems like 3/8" and 5/16" are the common sizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by timsrv
I'd like to fab up a new negative battery cable, my original cable is showing its age.
If its not too much I might do the positive battery cable as well, how long is that one and where does it run? Sorry, id go look but I don't have a garage so my vans sitting in a snowy/muddy driveway right now :P
Toyota uses metric wire size, so not exactly sure what that was, but their battery cables fall somewhere between #6 GA - #4 GA. For battery cables, I'm all for overkill, so I went with 2/0 wire. Here's a picture of the ground cable I fabricated (sitting next to the original) :wnk:. I don't remember size of eyes, just go with the smallest size that the bolt/stud will fit through.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...l/IMG_2393.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...l/IMG_2394.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...l/IMG_2396.jpg
Regarding the Bosch Relay mod, I didn't take a picture of that, but it's a simple mod so I just drew it up (electrically) from memory and attached it in a PDF format here: Attachment 6445.
It doesn't matter where you physically put the relay, but I'd try to find a cool & dry location. I ran a separate 12 GA wire directly from the battery to the relay, but you could also grab that power from the big starter wire (then 14 GA would be fine and you'd have everything right there). Good luck and please post pics/give updates with your results. Tim
Looked for this in DIY and in this section but didn't find a mention which likely means my ability to use the 'search' function is pretty bad. My starter now has to be tapped on with a screw driver to bring it back to life. Wondering if anyone has a source for starter contacts or has done this to cure the problem I am having.
Prior to this, it took numerous tries to get my van started (after sitting for a day or two) which I assumed was due to not getting fuel or drain back (or both). Now that my starter isn't working when I turn the key I hear the fuel pump priming, which lets me get gas up to engine, then go tap on the starter and thing fires up right away. So in addition to my starter motor sounds like I have a fueling issue, though the only item I have read about is a possible faulty cold start injector.
Thanks for reading, any advice appreciated. -Josh
BJ,
It is filed under articles -> Tim's Tech Tips -> Starter Clicks but won't crank. :wave2: I referred to this article before.
Tim is so good with the details.
Cheers, SoORYotas
Josh,
I'm hoping to tackle this job once I get my van back on all 4 wheels after I finish my bearing press job from hell finished. I bought this kit from Amazon, the job looks easy enough, if Tim's article and the rebuild videos on YouTube are any indication. If you go this route, would you mind posting back here with details on the job? If I get it done before you I'll come back and do the same.
Ok this job was crazy simple, if you are mechanically savvy enough to remove and replace a starter you are more than capable of replacing the contacts. I'll share a couple of pointers from when I did this job but it's real straight forward and Tim's article hits all the high notes.
First, that starter rebuild kit I bought was basically worthless. The plunger was too long and one of the replacement contacts had a weird crescent moon shape to it. I imagine this contact would have been fine on either side but it didn't seem to fit well and since only one of my contacts was worn I cleaned up the other one, hit the old plunger with a little bit of sandpaper and electronic cleaner to get the shine back and used that. If I were to do it again, I would just buy this bag of contacts and call it a day.
There is a thin wire on one side of the contacts, be real careful not to hit or sever this wire. It's attached to a little plate that goes between the contact and the back of the bolt. This little plate was stuck to the bolt pretty good, I used a small tip screw driver in there and gently pried it apart. After that its remove, clean, and replace, being mindful of the order everything goes back together.
The whole job, including pulling the starter and putting it back in, took a little over an hour, but I took pictures and got a little OCD about cleaning the starter while I had it out. I took it to OReilly's and they must have tested it about 5 times and said it passed every time. I threw it back in my van and she started right up and my code 12 is now gone so totally worth it in my book.
Thanks, for the update. Just put my van on the lift over the weekend while trying to finish work on Montero for a trip in 9 days. Bout of stomach flu stopped progress on both vehicles. Hopefully finishing the Montero over the next two days after work and will then pull the starter motor on the van.
Josh
Quote:
Originally Posted by AD2101
I made this repair as well, hardest part was starter removal and reinstall (very greasy)--the starter disassembly and replace was a breeze. The copper "L" shaped connector on the "hot-side"--powered side was worn almost paper thin from use/arching. Cleaned everything, sanded magnets/armature, replaced those copper parts---no more hammer/pray to start. Cranks 1st time/every-time----cranks way faster too.
Ok, so add me to the list. Have the click, when turning the key. Checked the battery, yep 12.5vlts on the multi meter. Assume I need new starter contacts, order the kit (came w/a plunger as well, so replaced that to). Felt pretty good patting self on back yesterday afternoon. Go to start it today same click. After a string of expletives, I checked the battery, no it’s fine; crawl under the van and tap the starter with the handle of a screw driver. Turn the key and starter motor fires. More expletives, shaking fist toward the heavens, etc. Before we talk about power supply or grounding connections, let me preface this with the idea that I have already replaced ground cables with custom 2.0g wires, run tandem 2.0g wires w/copper terminals to both starter and alternator. Any idea what I have failed to do? thanks for listening
BJ - Have you done anything to the trigger wire circuit?
Sounds like you've eliminated all the other possible causes.
Start with checking trigger voltage when the starter won't turn
I'd be tempted to run a separate wire for the ign switch to the solenoid and try that out for a couple of weeks, if no further troubles present,
make that wire permanent.
Before doing that you may want to inspect the ign switch itself and make sure the contact for the "start position" isn't burned/corroded.
Perhaps even just taking voltage readings from the back side might shed some light
Seems reasonable enough, but I would have thought it is something with the starter given that I can get it to start by tapping on it w/a hammer?
Is there a tutorial on removing the ignition lock? Looked at it briefly when I was looking for the trigger wire at ignition switch. I could only find two green wires coming from back of ignition lock. Not sure where to find it.
thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burntboot
BJ - you don't need to pull the lock cylinder, the electrical portion mounts onto the end of the lock body.
From post #17 of this thread Ignition switch question.
"To rule this out, make sure your battery is good and fully charged, then rig up a voltmeter to your small solenoid wire (at the starter) and have somebody try to crank. If you see above 10.5 volts and it's not cranking, then the problem is in your starter. If the voltage is below that, then the problem is somewhere in the starter circuit. If the problem is in your starter, pop the solenoid cover off and inspect the contacts before condemning the entire starter. Tim"
That is where I would want to start the investigation, having that answer (trigger wire voltage) will direct where to go next.
If the problem is in the starter, worn brushes or worn bearings are repairable but if the commutator is damaged its time for new.
The manual dedicates 12 pages to the starter and they quote specs for just about every imaginable thing you could want to inspect.
Not that it applies, but when I went down this road I hadn't yet found Tim's plunger contact repair and went with an OEM factory rebuild.
IIRC, I got a full 2 weeks before the click came back.
-only to say that my issue probably had nothing to do with the starter, as every time I thought I had it repaired, it would only be good for a few weeks at best.
I'd also try to rule out bad starter unit (while it's still connected to the van) v bad wiring by sending POS voltage directly to the starter.
If it doesn't turn this way, I'd suspect something with the starter unit is no good.
I've done this with jumper cables running from the battery, under the van, and to the contact on the starter.
I copy/pasted this (my experience/post) from an older thread:
I had the same problem back in 2008 when I bought my van. After replacing the ignition, neutral start safety switch, rebuilt starter, and going thru the whole system with a fine toothed comb, my mechanic concluded that there was a small voltage drop somewhere, so he installed a starter bypass switch.
http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...starter+bypass
As an update re-hecked the trigger wire from ignition switch and have a 2g wire going directly to the starter from the batt.
I find that if I put it in gear and let off the ebrake so it moves slightly against the gears it will fire up.
I think at this point I just need to get a reman denso at this point.
thanks
BJ - getting the starter to hook-up by loading up the drivetrain makes very little sense, unless it is actually helping to complete the ground circuit
Given that you've replaced everything on the positive side, any chance something has been overlooked on the negative side
Way way back, V12 Jag sedans could develop a stiff accelerator pedal, replacing cables was only a temporary solution.
Turned out the accelerator cables were completing the ground circuit, heating up in the process and partially melting the sheathing and causing the cable to bind.
Beefing up all the engine to chassis straps ended up being the final solution.
So when I ran the 2 gauge wire to the starter and to alternator, I also replaced all the ground wires at the same time with 2 gauge. At a loss?Quote:
Originally Posted by Burntboot
so I've ready thru this entire post and everyone says the symptoms are a click and no spin - mine is different.
I get a nice click/spin every time I turn the key - but the first 2-3 times it just makes a whirring noise but never seems to engage anything. After the 2-3rd time, it engages and starts right up like normal.
Any ideas what would cause that?
Have you checked the starter and flexplate / flywheel for broken teeth?
Maybe it's just not hooking up?
I agree. The ring gears are pretty tough on our vans, but it's conceivable one or more teeth could be damaged/broken. It's much more likely a starter issue (specifically the solenoid not kicking the "starter drive" out all the way or the starter drive itself could be messed up). You will need to pull the starter, then inspect the teeth on the ring gear and the drive gear. Once the starter is off, look up in the hole where it mounts and check the teeth on the ring gear. Use a socket/ratchet to slowly rotate the crank shaft 360° while checking for damage. If that's fine, then either repair or replace the entire starter. If the ring gear is damaged, well, lets just hope it's not (that's a much bigger job). TimQuote:
Originally Posted by pinkgrips236
ok, great. Will start there.
I had somehow imagined that it might be an electrical thing since the manual says if the car is in gear there is a "safety" switch which will prevent it from engaging (?).
As soon as it spins around a few times it finally catches - which aligns with what you guys are suggesting.
Thanks!
The safety switch (if it were bad) would not allow anything to happen. Since the starter is spinning, we know power is making it through the safety switch. Your problem has to do with engaging/meshing of the gears. IMO the most likely cause is a failing starter drive. If you check the pics in that listing you will see the smaller gear on one end. That gear can break teeth and/or the ratchet mechanism inside can get gummed up & cause grinding and/or slippage.
Due to our disposable society most people just replace entire starters. This makes individual parts more expensive, therefore further encouraging replacement of complete assemblies (in this case the entire starter). Tim