1986 stalling issue

[Metalghost]

Okay. I'm back. Got all the codes cleared.

Code 2 and 8 were cleared by taking out the Air flow meter and cleaning the connections and moving parts. Then changing out all vacuum lines. Pretty clean so not sure what was really wrong but error codes went away.

Then got Code 6 and cleared that by changing out the distributor. I suspect the new dizzy wasn't sending the Ne signal to the ECU while cranking. Changed out plugs and wires just for good measure.

Now I am code free but still stalling. Does worse if I give it gas. Youtube link to the way it starts up below. I've checked my fuel pressure and it is 41PSI and flowing good. Haven't pulled the injectors but they seem to be working since it turns over. I don't have reason to believe the ECU is the issue anymore. Tried to adjust the timing but it doesn't seem to resolve the issue. This is pretty much as good as I can get it.

Idea's of what to try or chase next?


1986 Toyota Van stalling issue - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ALZe8-EDrIs)

or cut and paste below.

https://youtube.com/shorts/ALZe8-EDrIs?feature=share

[Headhunter38]

Is it possible you just aren't cranking it enough? Compared to my van it seems like not enough

[Metalghost]

If I keep the key cranked the starter grinds. Also if I give it gas it dies.

is it possible to have too much gas? The new plugs are pretty black already.

[Headhunter38]

Yes but that would be from regulator failing but it would still run albeit probably roughly. You are going to have to check each system listed in code 6 here http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?195-Diagnostic-Codes-for-Toyota-Vanwagons-all-years. I believe in this video https://youtu.be/KDzT9ku7kpk he says he experienced a similar thing where the engine would fire a couple of times in the beginning like yours does before it stopped altogether and only cranked. You could have the same issue.

[Metalghost]

Well I’m in the right track then. Per the code list, I’ve changed the distributor, coil, wires, plugs and changed out to new vacuum lines. That seemed to stop it from throwing codes so got those problems solved.

Watched the link and I’ve already replaced the part he did and confirmed I have spark with a in line spark tester and also since it turns.

ECU? Even thought I’m not getting a code? It is advanced all the way forward with the distributor groove just to get it to turn over. Possible the ECU isn’t doing the start timing job and I’m doing to compensating manually?

The plugs are a little black but not sure if that is from all the cold starts and restarts with fuel from the last stumble and stall? Does seem rich though since it does if I give it gas.

Uhhhggg. Really need some thoughts on this.

[Burntboot]

One of the reasons the search function is a little clunky is sometimes people make multiple threads, all on the same subject.
I am having a little trouble following you trajectory as to whats been done and when, flipping between different threads doesn't help.

So far, as much as I can tell, you have changed the distributor and have to have it cranked all the way to the end of the slot.
That only happens when the distributor is installed 1 tooth off from where it should be.
If the distributor is off by one tooth, it will never, ever run right, period.

This has to be sorted out before you can do any further diagnosis.

[Metalghost]

Burntboot.

Thanks this is what I was looking for. I'm going to go back and see if I can redo this. It does seem off that I'm maxed out on the timing adjustment.

Sorry about the subject bump. I wanted to move the chat so people could find the problem under the different problem descriptions as I am past the original problems. But for a historical look I will describe it all together.

The van was my fathers and had sat a long time. And when I got it first thing I did was drain the fuel, put a new fuel filter on and put on a new battery. It cranked but didn't turn over.

1) I dove into the pump as the first thing to check. I did the pump short to verify the pump works. The did work and I could hear fuel in the return lines. So I checked the regulator by checking the pump PSI. It was 41 (range for my year is 31-38) Tim said that was fine. I also verified the flow was adequate. At least before the injectors and at the cold start line.

2) I checked spark next with a in line spark tester. I saw sparks on all 4.

3) For air, I couldn't changed out the air filter.

4) At this point, I didn't see anything obvious. But found out there is a way to check stored codes. Hadn't seen the engine light on before this.

5) There was a code 2 and code 2 and 8. So I replaced vacuum hoses and took off the flow meter and cleaned the connection and oiled the movements. Reinstalled and that cleared the codes. But now was getting code 6

6) For Code 6. I first tool the distributor (I think original) on there checked connections. I moved the TDC and found that when I moved it all the way advance it would turn over but die. Still had the code and thinking it wasn't getting a signal still I decided to put in new plugs, wires and distributor assembly (with coil). That has cleared up the code. But curiously the new distributor is still cranked all the way advanced.

Now that I am here. I can check the distributor again and see if I can get it more centered. At least to the point where I have the full range to adjust the timing.

Also a question. There are two plugs on the engine right inside the dizzy. One is a spade and one a green connector to sensors going into the block. Anyone know what those are. I think a temp sensor and something else? I broke the green connector wire when taking the dizzy in and out. I am in process of repair it. Want to make sure that isn't complicated the start and running. Not getting a code so reasoning it isn't part of the ECU inputs right now.

I will keep you all informed on how it goes. I did see someone else had a similar issue and that it was solved when he had the dizzy reinstalled and it was noted it was hard to get aligned. So hope this is it.

[Burntboot]

First off the diagnostic system in the van does not function the way you hoped.
Its more Stone tablet than iPhone X

Having codes with no MIL is condition normal and why we always tell everyone to check for codes before doing anything else, just in case.
And a code only identifies a system that isnt functioning normally, not a part that needs replacement.

"I moved the TDC and found" - you cannot move TDC.

TDC means "Top Dead Centre" and references the position of the piston, in the cylinder, at the top of its stroke.
You will need to find TDC in order to set the distributor correctly.
That procedure has been well detailed in the past, you will have to search for the procedure, as I don't have time to do it for you.
You will also need to verify the integrity of the harmonic balancer (not spun)
Yikes, more threads to look into.

Not sure on your connectors question, but any connection INSIDE the distributor will be required for function.
Off the top of my head I don't remember anything other than the engine wiring harness plugging into the distributor,

There is a green plug on the side of the dizzy that provides an RPM reference signal, but that is all I remember.
Mine never had a factory tach and I used that port for a signal.
I have no idea if the factory tach models used that port, or not.

[Burntboot]

And why could you not access the air filter?
Its a Pita agreed, but it must be inspected.
If an engine can't breath, it cant run and given that it was in long term hibernation, anything is possible.

Mice and chipmunks really enjoy making nests inside of well protected "caves"
BTDT2

[Metalghost]

Well made some progress.

Burnt boot you were right I was a tooth off on the distributor install. I realized that cause I took the distributor clamp down bolt out and rotated it way beyond the slot adjustment and it seemed to get better. So I took it out and redid it a few time and the rotor ended up a bit advanced to the #1 cap position. So with the distributor in it’s adjustment slot range, it cranks and starts up but still dies after a hot second or two. No error codes reporting. Going through the trouble shooting manual now. But any tips would be greatly appreciated.

The air filter sentence got cut off. I meant to say I couldn’t get to it but after I took all the stuff off I got it changed. Had to take off the air meter, cleaner hose and a bunch of wiring to get the lid off. No nests but I once found a nest and mouse in my air cleaner of my minicooper I drove everyday but parked outside.

So my big question is what is the green sensor below the oil pressure sender plugged into the passenger side of the block. Same wire harness as the oil pressure sender plug. I canÂ’t find it in the manual. I broke it and need to fix it but want to know if it is part of my problem. No error codes so thinking it isn’t part of my issue.

[MarkH]

One should be the temperature to the computer and the other is the temperature sender to the gauge in the dash. I'd still try jumpering the fuel pump test connector and try starting the van that way to rule out a bad fuel pump switch on the air filter housing. If that switch doesn't detect airflow, it immediately shuts off the fuel pump. Of course if the spark timing is way off, it won't run even if everything else is perfect.

[Metalghost]

Here is where I am with this now. Reinstalled the distributor position per the manual positive I am in the right spot, tooth and stroke. I verified by opening the oil cap and confirming the two valves were closed during the upstroke before TDC.

NO error codes still. So I worked down the list and no vacuum leaks, I have spark on all 4 and pump is working by jumping the pump test connector. I did test the air meter pump cut off and that seems to be working. I took off the hose to the air meter and when I push the meter flapper in, I could hear the fuel. So pretty sure it is doing it's job.


My working theories now are the fuel injectors or idle? But here are my questions around that.

Is it possible that the is starting up off the cold start injectors and the 4 main injectors and just not doing their jobs? This care did sit a long time. I know I can check the signals to the injectors but not that they are actually squirting into the chambers unless I take off the whole intake manifold and fuel rails right?

Any ideas forum?

Start up stall issue. Any suggestions? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Qe4JUnG_8zU)

or cut and paste below.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Qe4JUnG_8zU?feature=share

[Headhunter38]

have you checked the air intake in front of the air filter all the way to the end is clear? the intake is decently long and just changing the air filter would not be enough if there was an obstruction farther up.

[MarkH]

To verify if it's a fuel delivery problem, I'd try spraying carb cleaner or something flammable into the intake when starting and see if it continues to run (probably roughly), while continuing to spray.

[MarkH]

One last thing, if there are any splits in the rubber intake hose (which can sometimes be hard to see), it can create enough of a vacuum drop in the intake that the fuel pump switch flap can't stay open and the fuel pump shuts off.

[Metalghost]

Thanks Headhunter and MarkH. Going to check the intake feed first. It is a long run!

I did previously try to run it with the air cleaner hose off and manually pushing the flap open. I could hear it open the rail soon as I posted it open. Like trickling water. I am guessing that is pressuring down since this was before I turned key and got the pump going. I am becoming suspect that I have pressure and fuel at the rail but nothing or not enough is getting past the injectors. It does turn over though but I’m wondering if that is just from the cold start injectors or an initial amount but they can’t keep up. Something else I noticed is that if I try and start it a second or third time it gets progressively worse. Meaning it dies sooner or takes won’t turn over at all. I was wondering if it had power issues so I put on a start charger and it does the same thing. Does anyone know how the cold start injector works. For example does it give a shot to start with each key turn or just additive to the injectors shot?

Also Mark to try the carb cleaner or start. Should I just take off the air hose cleaner hose and shoot it in there? I guess it won’t matter that the flapper switch for the fuel won’t be on. Since I am bypassing the fuel all together.

Wish me luck will these next.

[MarkH]

I have a 1st gen van (1985), so things might be slightly different with your 1986 2nd gen, but as far as I know, opening that flap in the intake to turn on the fuel pump switch shouldn't do anything except allow the fuel pump to run when the key is in the running position. I'm not sure what the sound you heard was. For spraying in the carb cleaner, you could manually hold the flap open to keep the fuel pump running or spray the carb cleaner through a vacuum hose (which might not allow enough atomized spray in, but it might cause the van to sort of stumbly-run and let you know that it would run properly if more fuel was properly getting in if that makes sense). As for the cold start injector, without checking the manual, I think it just gives a quick spray of fuel into the intake on startup when the engine is cold. I've disconnected mine at the wiring connector before, and the van still started fine. I wonder if yours could be leaking by and dumping too much fuel into the intake making the mix to be too rich. You could try disconnecting the wiring connector to the cold start injector and see if the van starts and runs any different. It's a long shot, but it's a quick and easy check. As for the main injectors not firing, you could try starting the van, cranking it over a few times after it stalls and then remove the spark plugs and see if they are wet and smell like fuel.

[MarkH]

Also Mark to try the carb cleaner or start. Should I just take off the air hose cleaner hose and shoot it in there? I guess it won’t matter that the flapper switch for the fuel won’t be on. Since I am bypassing the fuel all together.


Actually, that would be a good idea too, to try the carb cleaner by itself without the fuel pump running. This could rule out too much fuel being dumped through the injectors.

[Metalghost]

Ah. Excellent ideas.

As to the flapper on sound. I have the key in and in position two and when I press in the flapper I hear a trickle. So I am assuming the pump is on and I am hearing the fuel in the return. Something for sure is happening when I press it in and key in start position.

Your reply gave me some ideas. I’m going to try and start it without the cold start connected and see if it does the same thing.

Then I will try to wet the spark plugs by cranking after it stalls. This may help me see if they are working at all.

After that I’ll try the carb cleaner in the cleaner hose (with flapper pushed in) this will help me zoom out and see if I have a fuel system problem.

I’m starting to wonder if there is something happening at the ECU after it starts up. Like the idle timing is off or something ECU controlled.

no codes yet so I’m hoping the ECU is not it.

[Metalghost]

Also going to carefully tap 12v on injectors 1 and 2. See if I can hear them open and close. Maybe they are stuck one way.

[Metalghost]

MarkH,

Progress. I pulled the cold start and it didn't turn over at all. Then I tried spraying starter fluid (not for long) into the air cleaner hose. Once with the flapper pushed and once without. Both times it ran great and stayed running. I also have checked fuel at the cold start connection with 45 PSI and assume the pump filter and workingfine. ALso assume it in the rail since I can hear the pressure regulator give some back to the return.

So, I think I am looking and the fuel injectors are not doing their job. This thing did sit for a very long time. I am going to try and confirm by letting the engine stall and pulling the plugs to see if they are wet and putting 12V on the injectors to see if they actuate before I jump into a fuel injector change, I want to be sure.

My only issue is I can't tell is if they plugs are wet, then is the problem the volume is right (or too much). Or worst off is the ECU is doing something to cut off the injectors after it starts up.

Any ideas before I go big on changing the injectors?

Thanks, and feeling encouraged now that I know it can run...

[MarkH]

I've never done this before so I don't know if it would work, but maybe try disconnecting the wiring to the injectors, putting a volt meter on the wiring, try to start the van and see if there is a voltage coming from the wiring. I'm not sure if you would get an accurate reading from a digital voltmeter since the signal is in pulses, but an anologue meter (with a needle) should show a voltage. That would tell you that the ecu is sending a signal. There should be a way of testing the injectors (resistance, etc.) according to the factory service manual. I'll check when I get home and post the pages. The cold start injector can be removed from the intake and tested by starting the van and watching the spray pattern into a glass jar, but the main injectors might be difficult without rigging up some kind of test manifold. I'd be surprised if all 4 injectors failed or were clogged all at once. My van sat for 8 years in a field before I got it. The fuel in the tank was like varnish. With new fuel/filter/pump, the old injectors still worked fine.

[Metalghost]

MarkH, I found the resistance test. Basically between 3-5ohms. The ones I could get to were good. cols start, and #1 and #2.

I am also suspect on all 4 are plugged or stuck. But I am sure that I have fuel on one side of the injectors. Just not sure why they aren't getting to the other side. I worry this is an ECU issue or worse wiring in between. I'm going to try and wet the plugs first with the cold start unplugged. I dread if they are wet and somehow the injectors work on cranking but not idling. It does turn over so I know one or two are firing so maybe one or two are working and 2 aren't. I am going to try everything I can to verify the injectors before I tear into them.

[MarkH]

11859
I attached the EFI portion of the factory service manual for the 1986 vans. The picture below is from page 36 I think:11860
Here are some pictures from the same manual for physically testing the injectors. This test seems like a pain since you have to rig up some new piping/hoses:118631186211861118641186511866

[Burntboot]

In addition to what MarkH has highlighted, you may want to have a read thru this thread and confirm the tests that Tim suggests

Thread: fire but no fuel (been sitting for years) (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2032-fire-but-no-fuel-(been-sitting-for-years))

[Metalghost]

Okay. Getting closer.

Got a noid light and plugged into the FI1 plug. No signal while cranking. Tried FI2 and same. So the injectors are not firing due to lack of a signal. Checked the plugs and they are fairly dry. I think the cold start injector works. Which would explain it turning over then dying.

Need to make some measurements but I suspect the ECU. There is 12V on one side of the plug and the other is no voltage. From the diagram I think both would be high if the other plugs are in.

Strange thing is. I don’t see or measure anything wrong with the ECU. Ideas in ways to check the ECU before I buy one to try?

[Headhunter38]

I would at least open it up and see if you can visually see anything wrong. It might be repairable.

[MarkH]

According to the wiring diagram, the cold start injector doesn't go through the ECU so that would explain why it is firing and not the main injectors. Here's the link again to the section from the factory service manual for the fuel/ECU system:11877

Here are the relevant pages for testing the ECU terminals:118781187911880

A quick check would be to check that the 15A EFI fuse isn't blown and the ECU is actually getting voltage.

[Metalghost]

Status

When key is in run position

The ECU is getting the proper 12V power supply. As it should be.

At the FI1 and FI2 plugs I am measuring 12V on both pins. As it should be.

But with the either FI1 and FI2 plug out I am seeing 35ohms unplugged between +B plug and ignition. So I think I have leakage path there. Not sure this is enough to keep the ECU from pulling down the 12V and fire the FIs.

I have a friend coming with a scope to see if we can figure out if the ECU is doing it's job. But Frankly I"m in a bit of disbelief, this was the last thing on the troubleshooting list and would be surprised if an ECU went out over something mechanical. But currently where I am at. I know for sure the FI are not firing. Assumed that it is not getting the power pulse to actuate the solenoid. So ECU right? or is it possible the ECU isn't getting the signal about cranking and to fire the injectors?

I did try to start it with the pump test connector jumped. Didn't help but wasn't surprised as the pump runs but it just sits the rail.

Any thoughts out there?

[MarkH]

I'm not aware of any details about how the logic of the computer works (I don't think it's in the manual), but if some signals to the computer are not there, the computer should still let the van run in a "limp home" mode. For example the 02 sensor and airflow meter, etc. I assume there are still some signals to the ECU that have to be there for the injectors to fire. I'm guessing that the starter signal during cranking should be there otherwise the computer doesn't know that you are trying to start the van. I'd try and verify the voltages at the ECU terminals as much as possible according to the Factory Service Manual in one of those pictures above.

[MarkH]

Particularly the STA-E1 should have 6-12V during cranking.

[Metalghost]

Got through the troubleshooting checks for the ECU. All the inputs are per range but there is no signal triggering the FI coming out of the ECU. I even shorted the pin to ground to check the wiring to the FIs and when grounded it does pull down the 12v on the FI and fires them. But for some reason when cranking there is no signal/pulse generated from the ECU to pull down the 12V. Got the scope out and chased down the no signal all the way back to the main chip. But still hard to say the chip isnÂ’t producing the pulse or if it is still missing an input. I am being led to the ECU being the issue but the only thing nagging me is that the ECU looks fine and no burned up parts or broken components, no errors. So without seeing anything wrong I donÂ’t have any evidence (aside process of elimination and being out of ideas) that the ECU is the issue. Already covered the basics and pump works and have 36PSI at the rail, 15A breaker is good(checked with continuity), the open circuit relay is right and feeding power to the pump.

Anyone know what tells the ECU to start sending the signals to the FI? Is it a signal from the distributor? Would make sense as it has to be timed and if the dizzy is spinning then FI should be going too.

[Metalghost]

Sta-E1 was good just under 12V. 11.5v.

The AFM was also good in open and closed position.

TPS was good open and closed.

Ground was solid.

[Metalghost]

Finally figured it out.

After going through the TSM troubleshooting and doing the last ditch "try another ECU". There was still no change. I knew there was still no signal to the FI from the ECU but not sure why. All the inputs the TSM listed were there. But after thinking about it and the troubleshooting there wasn't any mention of testing the signal from the distributor/ignitor to the ECU. We saw an ING and IGT signal but there was a white wire coming off the ignitor called Ne. So chased that and saw the wire was not ohming out. Dig out the bundle and saw the problem immediately. The bundle passed through a sheet metal hole and the protective cover came off and the wires had been slowly cut the white Ne wire. Patched that break up and turned the key and it fire up fine and is running great now. So, this single wire that wasn't really covered in the TSM can be a source of no FI signal. I had to look up the Ne wire purpose on another Toyota site but sure enough it input the signal that was the FI. https://www.toyotaguru.us/engine-control-systems/input-signals-required-to-pulse- (https://www.toyotaguru.us/engine-control-systems/input-signals-required-to-pulse-injectors.html)
Anyways van is running strong now. Thanks for help and hope this helps someone else out there.

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