dead van...

[bald josh]

the brother in-law and i will be going to retrieve my dead van in the AM.
story goes, replaced
cap
rotor
plugs
wires
thermostat
in and out coolant hoses
and cleaned up alternator and harness
drove her for 200 flawless better than ever miles and then...
small hiccups on take off, got worse as the day progressed, just a flutter of a no power, not a shudder, no noises, just like the damn thing was burping, got worse and worse till the engine finally just shut down( mind you, i was trying to make a ferry) got towed to town and dropped off at the local NAPA no noise from the fuel pump. road side i dropped the tank and replaced the fuel pump @#$%$#***&^%$# no buzz THEN checked the wire harness to the pump, no power...hot wired the pump and buzzzzz, my vans fuse block has seen better days, when i got it there was alot of burnt roflroflroflrofl that i worked around but this ones wierd, fuses blow, they dont shudder tilll they die

any thoughts????
j-
p.s. the dog didnt give a roflroflroflrofl492

[bald josh]

should add, no check engine light on. all seemed to be working fine, and within the course of 20 miles it all went to h e l l , s h i t just checking the kid safe stuff, uygyuygiuyiuygytgitgiyghuj man 2 weeks back into the tv thing and pissy boo poo blah , i love her and shes got a new $235 fuel pump so i aint givin up, but it kinda takes the polish off
j-

[timsrv]

Fuel pump doesn't (isn't supposed to) run unless ignition switch is in the "start" mode or the engine is running. To test the fuel pump circuit you jump the "fuel pump test connector" (picture below) and turn the key to "run". Only then will you hear the sound of fuel flowing through the system (I hope you didn't change a good fuel pump).

The way you described the break down sounds suspiciously like a bad coil. Check the fuel system the way described above and then check for spark. Good luck. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/13IMG_9014.jpg

[bald josh]

I did the fuel pump test on the side of the road afterbreaking down and heard no pump noise. Obviously it was a pretty crappysituation so I suppose I could have missed the sound but I was in a remote areaso there wasn’t any background noise. After being towed to town I confirmedthere was no pump noise so I replaced the pump. Still the pump wouldn’t runwith the turn of the key, didn’t think to do the pump test again as both myselfand the tow truck driver confirmed no sound from the tank, with the key on. I jumpedthe pump motor from the battery and the pump started working but the van wouldn’tfire so figured something electrical that controlled both pump and ignitionsystem, but to track that down might be a lot on the side of the road, so I baggedit for the day .yesterday we towed it home and then started the search for theproblem.
As I said in first post theres been wiring issues with thefuse block so we focused in that area and finally found the “open circuit relay”(in manual) “circuit open” (on relay)was not getting power when the key isturned on, so I suspect another fried wire. The wiring schematic in my manualwould suggest that this relay directly affects fuel and spark so I will jump itto confirm and and then go to the junk yard and perform the oh so pleasant taskof replacing the fuse block and any fried connectors (theres at least one thative seen)
I also performed the pump test again, since getting it homeand the pump runs, so im a little lost, but my only thought is the pump goingout (shorted?) fried the wire at the same time or the wire frying killed thepump. Id like to think I didn’t replace a good pump, but the old one is in thegarbage a ferry ride away so maybe ill never know.

[timsrv]

Josh, regarding your posts I wasn't clear on the way you performed the pump test (did you jump the "fuel pump test" connector?). If the pump ran for your last test, then it sounds like you must be doing it correctly. Did you test it this way every time?

You are correct about the "circuit opening relay" controlling the pump. This relay has a single set of contacts but has 2 coils. Each of these coils will independently close the contacts when activated. One coil is powered up via the ignition switch (only becomes energized when the key is in the "start" position). The other coil relies on a switch inside the AFM (Air Flow Meter) to close the circuit after start-up. In order for the AFM to close the circuit there must be enough air flowing for the engine to run (this is why the "start" position of the ignition switch temporarily activates the pump during start-up). The "fuel pump test" connector is simply a bypass of this switch inside the AFM. To test the system, disable your starter by disconnecting the small trigger wire then turn your ignition switch all the way over to "start". You should hear a click followed by the sound of fuel flowing in the system. If that checks out, put the jumper wire in the "fuel pump test" connector and turn your key to the "run" position. At this point you should hear fuel flowing again. If the fuel flows then start your engine and pull the jumper wire out. If it dies when you take it out, then the AFM is faulty.

If you can get the fuel to flow, but can't get the van started, then check for spark. If no spark is present then check for power in your AM2 & IG2 circuits. A good place to start is the fusible link box right behind the power steering reservoir. Make sure the 30A link labeled AM2 is not blown and physically check for power in the white/red wire exiting that box. If it has power then pull the lower cover off the steering column, turn your ignition switch to "run" and check for power at the ignition switch solder joint associated with the black/red wire in the harness.

I realize you may have bigger problems with the fuse box and associated wires, but sometimes it's easier to check/identify where power is/isn't, then work your way back as required. When reporting back, try to provide clear & concise information regarding your tests and I'll walk you through the next steps. Good luck. Tim

PS: For more troubleshooting information on this CLICK HERE (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?983-new-van-owner-needs-help&p=5742#post5742)

[bald josh]

Day 1
Side of the road I tested fuel pump using fuel pump testconnector – no pump noise
Got towed to auto parts store
Had someone turn key on and off- heard no pump noise
Disconnected fuel line – no pressure, tiny dribble of fuel
Replaced fuel pump
Turned key on-no pump noise
Wired pump directly to battery- pump worked
Cycled pump 3 times to prime (curiously pump just keptrunning as if it wasn’t building pressure like no fuel in tank but I can assureyou there was as im no whimp and it was a serious struggle to get the tank backup and mounted)
Left fuel pump running via battery and tried to start-vanwouldn’t fire (battery was fairly weak by now)
Gave up and went home
Day 2
Towed van home
Tested fuel pump using fuel pump test connector – pump ran
Checked for spark with timing light – no spark
Pulled and tested EFI and main engine (?) and circuitopening relays-all test good
Reinstalled all relays and discover circuit opening relay isnot clicking when key is turned on (others are clicking)

Today, I am going to the wrecking yard to pull the fuse box,I already have mine out and want to be comfortable with the state of myelectrics ( as you can see mine has had some trouble) if that doesn’t take careof it (I doubt it will but…)I will do the tests as described above and reportback.

Thanks for the responses and any future help
josh

[timsrv]

FYI, that burned post is for your heater blower motor. Good luck. Tim

[bald josh]

yeah i know, that burned post is the reason i jerry rigged the relay in order to have the blower motor work, but for 15 dollars at the wrecker i got a good condition box that im not worried about. since i cant see the innerds of the fuse box i couldnt be sure there werent some other issues in there.im used to fuse boxes with the blades on one side and the wires on the other side connected directly to the fuse recepticle so you know what and where you fried something. the wires into the back of this do not corelate with anything on front so lots of mystery.

So that being said if this post is a problem with the vans then i have a good way to bybass and get your heat back on, should i put up some pics or is this totally uncommon???
josh

[bald josh]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the fuse box changed nothing (but gave me peace of mind) so this evening i will run through your check list in previous post. when i was looking at the schematic it looked like power from relay to MAF but as you described power from MAF to relay makes alot of sense so ive got high hopes:)
thanks
josh

[bald josh]

disabled starter - fuel pump runs in start
fuel pump runs in run position but i have no spark to fire up van and pull wire from test connector to test for MAF failure.

there is power all the way to the key but the black/red wire has power in run AND in the off position???
josh

[joegri]

i have been watching this thread with great interest. looks like this will be a great learning experience for everybody. trouble shooting is a method that i have a hard time with and its great to have guys here that can at the very least give you a suggestion where to start. josh sounds like he has this under controll but it,s not gonna be easy!! best of luck to ya bald josh but i think you have this 1 all the way!! please continue to post where yer at. just would like to see this figured out and up and running again.

[bald josh]

think i found a problem !!!, fried coil, it looked fairly rough when i replaced the cap rotor, etc, but coil didnt seem very available, or cheap so just reused it. maybe with all the new parts it was getting alot more power flowing through there and fried it faster or ??? does the coil need to be operational for the van to pump fuel (safety thing, dont want to pump fuel if your not gonna burn it ?)

[timsrv]

Yeah, that looks fried. The next test was going to be testing for power to the coil and the igniter. With the way that thing looks I'd just skip to replacing it. Hopefully your next post will be "That was it!" :).

[bald josh]

Just remenbered in Tims first response to my problem he mentioned that it sounded like a bad ignition coil!! Man ive been beatin my brains out on thi and Tim gave me the answer right off the bat, think i was focused on the fuel, thats why this AM i decided to focus on the spark viola TIM, YOU ARE THE MAN hpefully its all related to the coil,
josh

[bald josh]

Hey Tim, the manual says take it to TDC on 1 and remove the distributor ??? i can access the coil without all that, cant i just swap coils without all that???

[timsrv]

Yeah, if you can do it that way then sure. I always pulled the distributor, so I can't speak from experience. It's been long enough that I don't remember if there's a reason (other than convenience) to pull it out. If you can do that then you won't need to mess with the timing. Tim

[bald josh]

dead no longer!!!! replaced the coil and she fired right up, cant tell you how relieved i am right now, thanks for the help and quick responses Tim!!!
the really awful part is that when i originally did the tune up i could see how ugly the coil looked but the guy at my auto parts store said they were really expensive / unavailable, coils dont fail very often so just reuse it. when i went back today a different guy looked it up and says 35.00 and weve got it on the shelf! i almost lost it right there but people make mistakes, just happens that this one lost me 21/2 days work, my weekend, 300 dollars in parts for the fuel pump and supplies and 100 dollars for the ferry ride, food etc for me and the bro -in-law to tow it home. Im tired ! should have done more home work on the coil in the first place but the guy with bad info is very knowledgable so i trusted him, but he was trusting the wrong info he pulled up in the computer.

josh

[timsrv]

Absolutely not a problem :). I'm glad you got it worked out :thmbup:. The coils are not an uncommon failure on these vans. I've had one fail and several others have too. Tim

PS: were you able to swap coils without pulling the distributor?

[bald josh]

Sorry, forgot to respond, i was so happy to have it all together and drivin around, in regards to coil replacement without distributor removal...
Sure was, little more work than i thought it would be but alot easier than pulling the whole unit. the upper 2 screws were easy, the lower passengerside screw i needed my 1/4 drive socket with phillips head (or one of those 90 degree screw drivers would work) in order to get in between the coil and fuel filter. the lower drivers side i had to unbolt the dipstick and fuel line from block and flex out of the way a little to slip a driver between them and the block, that left very little room to turn the driver. all the other three felt like they were barely seated, but of course the last, with the least room and no line of site was very tight, started to strip out but finally came. I thought about using a replacement allen head bolt on this one so in the future i wouldnt have this problem but figured i probably will never replace it again.

[joegri]

it lives!!!! b josh i,m really glad to hear that the van is up n running again. it sounded like you were up against the wall but, all came out good in the end. when a van goes down and ya dont know what the heck is wrong its cool to know that other vanner feel yer pain and can help with any straw you can pull at. roll with it!

[eddieleephd]

yeah Toyota put the safety feature in their vehicles that if there is no spark there will be no fuel.
And vise-versa no spark. basically if it does not sense one it will not give the other!!!

[timsrv]

yeah Toyota put the safety feature in their vehicles that if there is no spark there will be no fuel.
And vise-versa no spark. basically if it does not sense one it will not give the other!!!

When the engine stops, so must the fuel pump. This is a "fail safe" safety requirement designed into the system. With engine driven mechanical fuel pumps this action is automatic. Not the case with electric. To achieve this goal some manufacturers use a motion sensor on the flywheel (to detect engine rotation). As long as rotation is detected, and the ignition switch is in the "run" position, the pump circuit remains enabled. For our vans, Toyota went with a switch inside the AFM. The AFM switch requires more air flow than can occur by cranking the starter. To temporarily enable the circuit (for starting), the pump is triggered by the momentary "start" position of the ignition switch. The existence (or non existence) of spark does not play a role in this. Nor does pump operation play a role in the production of ignition spark. Tim

[eddieleephd]

Are you completely sure? Not really doubting you, I do know on the Toyota's I am used to working on that if the engine does not find spark it will shut off the pump. maybe this was a 90's feature that started. Reason was to limit flooding and other mishaps. and with no fuel pressure there will be no spark had nothing to do with the pump. Again I know this to be true on the 96 and newer Toyota's.
Basically it is not the pump or the coil that determine the spark or fuel, but the pressure and actual spark sensors.
So yes this is possible to have changed to this in the 90's.

[timsrv]

I am not (nor do I claim to be) a modern automotive mechanic. My comments were directed at these pre-historic Toyota vans & other vehicles that roamed the earth in the beginning age of EFI :wnk:. I quit working for Toyota around 1991. I am still working as a tech (I run my own business), but specialize in RV repair (things like LP gas furnaces, refrigerators, water heaters, AC/DC electrical systems, plumbing, etc). After I left Toyota I have very limited experience in the modern automotive service world.........so I wouldn't know.

Makes sense I guess. Modern stuff has more sophisticated control circuits and it wouldn't surprise me if you are correct. Tim