Timing process questions; timing light questions

[joegri]

am waitng for a new timinglight to come in the mail maybe today ! i have a new cap and rotor to insall also. my question is when im shining the light on the pully do i lock the dist when it reads 12degrees or zero degrees? i thought i read 12 is number. and jump out the same plug that the code checking takes place? i know it sounds silly but i want to be sure i got this motor timed correct. thanx for any replys.

[timsrv]

Yes, you jump the "check engine connector" then set the timing to 12 deg. After the distributor is locked down at 12 deg, pull the jumper from the "check engine connector" and check the timing again. If your advance is working correctly the timing should have jumped to around 20 deg.

[joegri]

tim thanx so much for the responce! i did get the t light today and i,ll have a lil time tomorrow to do a cap n rotor n timing job. but more imporantantly is my head gasket test. yesterday i did a pressure test to 18 lbs and a slight leak at the heater hose. fixed that but still a low coolant level. no coolant in the oil and no leaks at the motor????? so i,m prepin for a motor swap or a head gasketr job. thanx so much for the help. i do count on you guys for any info and tips. the wife said i should think about getting a new van. my retort " ARE U CRAZY" i love these vans. ive been drivin these for close to 10 years now and people know me as that guy in that crazy van!!! they are a good advertisement tool. works good for me cuz i do heating repairs and carpentry and has the abilty to carry tools, lumber and anything i can fit in it!!

[americapitalpaul@gmail.co]

Is it necessary to use a tachometer when adjusting ignition timing? If so where can I get a tachometer that is made or can be used on 1987 Toyota Van Le? Any recommendation of brand model even a picture of how it looks like and where I can get one would be greatly appreciated. If it is not necessary to use a tachometer, is it okay to use a cheap $20 timing light from harbor freight to adjust ignition timing? I finally got my van to pass emissions, but the ignition timing is off. Need to get this thing to pass before next week due to a new job and only form of transportation. Thanks everyone ahead of time. Paul

[timsrv]

It's a good idea to dial in the RPM before setting the timing. If the timing is really off RPMs will change when you dial it in. Sometimes you need to adjust timing & RPMs more than once to get it dialed in. It's not absolutely necessary to use an RPM gauge but it can be helpful. Most auto parts stores & perhaps even places like WalMart will sell inexpensive RPM meters for tuning an engine, so if you don't feel confident using your ear you could get one of those.

I don't think it matters how "cheap" your timing light is. As long as it works it should be accurate. Tim

[americapitalpaul@gmail.co]

Thanks Tim. I'm going to do this job tomorrow and hopefully pass smog. Paul

[fuquan]

Yes, you jump the "check engine connector" then set the timing to 12 deg. After the distributor is locked down at 12 deg, pull the jumper from the "check engine connector" and check the timing again. If your advance is working correctly the timing should have jumped to around 20 deg.

Finally bought a timing light! Now, when I jumper my check engine connector my idle drops, then I set my timing at 12 deg. When I remove the jumper my idle does not rise and timing stays at 12. I have a code 11 for TPS. Is a bad or improperly adjusted TPS likely the sole reason that timing does not jump to ~20?

[timsrv]

Yes. The electronic timing advance will not function if the TPS is bad or improperly adjusted. If you have a code 11 & no advance it's a pretty safe bet you need a TPS. Tim

[fuquan]

Yes. The electronic timing advance will not function if the TPS is bad or improperly adjusted. If you have a code 11 & no advance it's a pretty safe bet you need a TPS. Tim

The new TPS fixed the problem. Timing now jumps from 12 to 20 for the first time since I have owned the van.

[timsrv]

:thmbup: :dance2: :sfr:

[happycloud]

I am working on timing the van and I borrowed an induction timing light which has 4 cables. The thing doesn't appear to want to go in timing mode and the only thing I can figure out is that I need to connect the 4th wire which says to connect to the "tach side of the coil". Is there even a way to do that on the van? (87 4ye)

[originalkwyjibo]

There is a service connector between the distributor and the engine block for this type of use. It is held with a small bracket under one of the distributor cap screws and has a plastic cover snapped on over it.

You can see it clearly in this picture.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/IMG_1479.jpg

[happycloud]

Ah great that was it. Thank you!

[JPERL]

I am hearing this second hand, 89 Van was said to fail emissions because the ignition timing could not be checked due to the Idle being at 900 RPM's, that just does not sound correct to me. Sounds like bull anyone else agree?

[Rudy]

The manual states that the timing must be checked at 850 rpm (it may say 800, not 100% sure...I don't have my manual on me). When the idle is higher, it will advance the timing slightly. I just went through this process on my van. At 900 rpm, I don't see a big problem with setting the timing. It doesn't advance all that much with a 100 rpm increase. It likely won't even register an increase.

For example: I just cleaned my intake and throttle body. Often times, that creates a higher idle at about 1000rpm until it's been driven a bit. That is what happened with me. I did my timing chain too, so I needed to set the timing. I set my timing just barely above the 12 BTDC mark. Maybe about 12.5-13 degrees, so that when my idle creeps back down to 800-850 there will be a tiny bit of retardation to push me to 12 BTDC. It may not make a difference, but I was trying to be exact.

Short answer: Bull! It's too close to regular idle to say that the timing can't be set.

[JPERL]

I did my timing chain too,
Short answer: Bull! It's too close to regular idle to say that the timing can't be set.

Did your timing chain break or get real loose and rattling? These are beefy chains can't imagine one breaking

[Rudy]

Since I was doing soooo much work to the van and had it torn apart, I thought I would do the timing chain for piece of mind. I had no idea if it was the original chain or not (250,000 miles), and I wanted the piece of mind to have a fresh chain for the next 100,000-250,000. It was a bit loose too...moving the crankshaft 12 degrees before the rotor would spin.

I don't think it was the original chain, BTW. But I'm happy with the result. Plus, my crank seal was leaking.

[JPERL]

Confusing Instruction

Step 9b says 12 degrees BTDC
Step 10 says 20 degrees BTDC @ idle

My confusion is that in Step 9b when setting the timing at 12 deg BTDC isn't this being done at Idle?
Is the distinction the service wire? in other word with terminals T-E1 shorted set the timing at 12 deg BTDC and then set timing at 20 deg. BTDC with terminals not shorted?

[terrence]

You set the timing 12* BTDC at idle after you short the terminal out. Then when you remove the jumper wires and check the timing it should be at 20* BTDC at idle.

MOD EDIT — To clarify, the above applies to the 4Y-EC engines only; 3Y-EC engines are timed to 8° BTDC

[rcf_1989]

Hi,

My 89 cargo van, 48k miles, began pinging. I borrowed a timing light to make the adjustment. Took a long time to clean the grime away to see the marks on the side of the engine. But, I could never see the mark on the pulley.

I could not fit my hand, much less a socket, to rotate the engine (I wanted to paint a mark on the pulley). I tried from both above and below. Actually, I couldn't even fit underneath to see the pulley.

What are the tricks I couldn't figure out?

Two side questions:
1) when I jumpered the computer bypass, I got a lean mixture error code. Could this be triggered by the timing being a little advanced? Other than air filter, what are common causes?

2) In the interim of timing adjustment, I switched from regular to mid-grade gas. Pinging went completely away. Do most of you use the low octane gas? Would summer blend gas be more likely to ping?

Thanks for any help.

[PNW vanwagon]

i've got the exact same van (1989 cargo 73k miles) and the exact same problem: light pinging under load just recently.

i've been swamped with work so i did the same: switched to mid-octane and has 100% fixed problem until i can buy a timing light and adjust timing

it might be a dumb question: but it sounds like you've had trouble finding space to rotate the distributor - were you able to remove the passenger seat and engine cover to gain access to that side of the engine?

i did some research on pinging and a few common reasons:
lean mixture, over advanced timing, carbon deposits in combustion chambers, EGR valve etc

http://www.onestopauto.com/What-causes-spark-knock.html

^ article mentions minor pinging is acceptable - which is the type i have. but i'll still get after adjusting timing as soon as i can. along with an oil change and front brake pad replacement

keep me posted on if you get your's solved - and i'll do the same. i'll be curious to see if slightly retarding timing cures the pinging and allows me to switch back to 87 octane fuel

[rcf_1989]

There is no problem with pulling the right side engine cover (other than perpetually wondering why it wasn't set up like
the left side since most tune up steps require access to that side of the engine).

There is only a very narrow visibility passage for the timing light to see the marks on the engine, so I need to make the
pulley mark as obvious as possible.

The problem was that I could not see the timing mark on the main pulley and could not reach my hand, or a socket, between
the engine and fan from above in order to hand-turn the engine to search for the mark and put a dab of paint on it. I also could not get my
head underneath in a position to even see the pulley from below. I think you'd need jack stands to get enough clearance. (Even so,
no flat ground to work on.)

I'm mainly hoping that someone could describe the particular contortions needed to see the pulley clearly and to rotate it to find the timing
mark. (And a clue about the typical cause for a "lean mixture" error code. Air filter was new not too many miles ago. I am wondering if the timing
being off confused the computer.)


i've got the exact same van (1989 cargo 73k miles) and the exact same problem: light pinging under load just recently.

i've been swamped with work so i did the same: switched to mid-octane and has 100% fixed problem until i can buy a timing light and adjust timing

it might be a dumb question: but it sounds like you've had trouble finding space to rotate the distributor - were you able to remove the passenger seat and engine cover to gain access to that side of the engine?

i did some research on pinging and a few common reasons:
lean mixture, over advanced timing, carbon deposits in combustion chambers, EGR valve etc

http://www.onestopauto.com/What-causes-spark-knock.html

^ article mentions minor pinging is acceptable - which is the type i have. but i'll still get after adjusting timing as soon as i can. along with an oil change and front brake pad replacement

keep me posted on if you get your's solved - and i'll do the same. i'll be curious to see if slightly retarding timing cures the pinging and allows me to switch back to 87 octane fuel

[Rudy]

Bump the starter so the engine rotates a bit. When it stops, can you see the mark on the pulley? If not, bump it again and see where it lands. Eventually, the pulley should stop a location that you can seen the mark.

1.If I remember correctly, a lean mixture coming out the tailpipe is from retarded timing. Google that one.

2.I use regular octane, but I use non-ethanol gas. It is a significant improvement in terms of a smoother running engine and no heat soak issues.

[rcf_1989]

Thanks.

I tried bumping the starter a handful of times and didn't get lucky. I guessed (wrongly I suppose) that it tends to land
in preferential spots. Sounds like doing that more patiently might be the only way.

I am curious to see about the non-ethanol gas. I can try a tank next time. I think that the mid-grade and non-ethanol regular
are not that different in price though.

And, yes, retarded timing and lean running tend to go together. I will double-check the vacuum hoses and air filter. I did test
the primary O2 sensor and it passed.


Bump the starter so the engine rotates a bit. When it stops, can you see the mark on the pulley? If not, bump it again and see where it lands. Eventually, the pulley should stop a location that you can seen the mark.

1.If I remember correctly, a lean mixture coming out the tailpipe is from retarded timing. Google that one.

2.I use regular octane, but I use non-ethanol gas. It is a significant improvement in terms of a smoother running engine and no heat soak issues.

[Rudy]

...or take that plastic guard off below to get a better look
or feel for it with your finger
or try to give one of those extendo mirrors a shot

Just throwing out ideas. Good luck!

[originalkwyjibo]

It is definitely a pain to see the timing mark especially with a timing light. Just a heads up though, some other members here have had issues with the rubber bond between the two halves of the harmonic balancer deteriorating to the point that the outer portion, where the timing mark is located, has moved in relation to the inner portion and the crankshaft. This causes the timing mark to potentially be way off.
Here's a good timing mark visual from Tim's engine rebuild blog:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/89%20cargo%20van%204yec%20rebuild/IMG_1967.jpg

[rcf_1989]

Thanks.

[djshimon]

It is definitely a contortion but I did use a socket wrench to turn the crank but I can't remember which size it is-pretty big one, maybe a 19mm? I don't think I removed the fan shroud but that would make it easier.
Also I used an orange marker pen to mark the notch on the crank pulley so I can see it when doing the timing.

[rcf_1989]

It is definitely a contortion but I did use a socket wrench to turn the crank but I can't remember which size it is-pretty big one, maybe a 19mm? I don't think I removed the fan shroud but that would make it easier.
Also I used an orange marker pen to mark the notch on the crank pulley so I can see it when doing the timing.

Thanks, I couldn't fit my socket between the pulley and radiator. I wonder if the gap was larger in an older van? Like you, my plan
is to put a paint mark on the pulley. I'll try again this weekend and see if I can make anything fit.

[Ace MM]

switched to mid-octane and has 100% fixed problem until i can buy a timing light and adjust timing
i'll be curious to see if slightly retarding timing cures the pinging and allows me to switch back to 87 octane fuel
In another car, I have this issue.
Retarded timing is likely the cause.
Runs so much better on 91 vs 87 octane

Curious to what plugs your using.
On my car, I recently tried some platinum tips and have less pinging under the same conditions.

[PNW vanwagon]

In another car, I have this issue.
Retarded timing is likely the cause.
Runs so much better on 91 vs 87 octane

Curious to what plugs your using.
On my car, I recently tried some platinum tips and have less pinging under the same conditions.

i used NGK Platinums as they were available from my local parts store.
that was a few months ago i installed new spark plugs, spark plug wires, distributor cap and rotor

it's a very recent occurrence: very slight tapping sound when under load. like a muffled typewriter

just for clarity sake: are you saying i should adjust my timing to be more advanced? i had read pinging can sometimes be solved by going the other way : retarding the timing one or two degrees

thanks for clarifying - it'll be good to know when i get to work on my engine

[rcf_1989]

Hi all,

Thanks for all of the replies to my questions. I had time yesterday to take another look.

Key help was to remove the plastic shroud over the fan. Two bolts at the top on either side.
The bottom of the shroud is removeable to slip it around the fan for both removing and reinstalling.
The clips holding the bottom in place are set up so that you don't have to remove it completely. You can
disconnect it on its top on either side of the upper part of the shroud. The lower clip lets it
pivot just enough to guide gently past the fan blades.

Once the shroud was removed. it was easy to rotate the crank. The timing mark was actually
very clearly marked with a white painted triangle (looked like from the factory). Now that I knew
it was there and what it looked like, I went back to checking the timing.

I think a second key thing that helped yesterday was that it was no where near as bright out
as on the last time. (No garage, I have to work in my driveway.) Even knowing the timing mark
existed, it took a lot of experimentation to light it with the strobe. There seems to be exactly
one viewing position that allows you to see both the engine mark and the timing mark. If the
light rotates even a few degrees, the timing mark disappears. It was pretty ethereal in the daylight.
I bet everything is easier if you can work in a garage or carport.

So, I think it was a combination of not knowing what the timing mark would look like, too much ambient
light and not getting the strobe in exactly the right position that frustrated me before. There was no need
to clean the pulley, so that mark was viewable the last time; I just didn't find it.

After all that, the timing was, as far as I could tell, dead on. It might have been slightly retarded
(11 deg instead of 12 deg). But, that was because it was hard to make sure that I was getting a
nice direct view of the two marks from above. After removing the jumper, the timing shifted to about
18 deg, which as I read the manual, is OK. It just says that it should shift to near 20 deg.

The timing light I borrowed was one that allowed me to adjust the triggering so that I only need to look
at the TDC mark. I think that type would be easier for this vehicle since the engine doesn't even have
a -12 deg mark.

Remaining questions:

1) No pinging at all using the mid-grade gas. Pings on regular.

2) Still getting the "lean mixture" error code. (I did reset it last time.)

3) I pulled the #1 spark plug. Looked good to me, normal wear. NipponDenso P16R. I looked
closely at it and I think that it has platinum discs on both sides of the gap. Since the engine
runs great and since all the plugs are the same age, I didn't bother looking at the other three.

Can anyone come up with a reason why pinging and a lean mixture code would occur? Or, should I
assume that they are separate issues?

I ran the O2 sensor check and it seemed to be functioning as described in the manual. Any reason
to try replacing it?

I didn't see any disconnected vaccuum lines. The hoses looked OK to me.

Thanks again and I hope the above is helpful.

[PNW vanwagon]

^ i researched some on running lean causing pinging. possible causes:
- low fuel coming thru due to clogged fuel injectors or fuel pump
- small air leak in one of the various air hoses
- MAF mass air flow sensor malfunction

i'm wondering if my main air intake tube has some small crack. i replaced my air filter a couple months back and had to disconnect that big main air intake tube. it looked to be in perfect condition but i'll have a closer look while i'm checking my timing. maybe re-tighten the clamps while i'm at it

i'll probably retard my timing a little bit even if my timing seems right on and see if it helps.