Wheel noise?

[abracadabra]

Here's some more info, I had a moment at my folks place here (out in the country!) to get the jack out and lift the front wheels for a quick diagnostic.
Both wheels have the same free play when grabbed at 12 and 6, just a touch, I'm thinking this is normal.
When spinning the wheels they are not silent, there's a rubbing sound, the same on both sides, maybe the brakes? I don't know.
It made me think of something though:
I just replaced the front pads a few months back myself, got the real Toyota ones, and using my FSM it was a real breeze. However I remember not seeing all the parts listed in the manual.........there are some "anti squeal" and "anti rattle" parts and springs that I didn't have, they weren't on the van to begin with. So I just figured that was fine and replaced the pads. I can't remember if some/all those parts where gone, but it was the same on both sides so thats that.
Could those missing parts cause the issue I'm having, or does that not matter?
mark

[abracadabra]

Folks-
For as long as I've had my van, less than a year, there's been a sound that I hear that seems to be wheel related but I may be wrong.
It comes from up front, it speeds up ands slows down with the speed of the ride, it kinda sounds like a bad tire or something, just a whump whump whump, not real loud but it does seem a little louder now than it did a year ago.
I suspected wheel bearings at first but after REALLY listening to the sound, windows down, different speeds, there's nothing metallic or grindy at about the sound, which seems to be the things you associate with bad bearings. I do have a receipt for new bearings/grease from some previous owner, done 20K ago or so. That of course doesn't mean they were done right, but at least I know they're not original.
The tires are brand newish, Hankooks, great tires. The sound didn't change from the old tires to new tires, so I know its not a tire issue.
Not sure what this could be, any leads?
Everything else is good on the van, the previous grindy noises I heard up front that made me suspect bearings turned out to be the wear indicators on the pads, replaced those, that sound went away. Gas mileage is good so I don't suspect a dragging shoe or anything. 22-23 on the highway.
thanks for any help!
mark

[timsrv]

Problems like that can be really hard to diagnose without hands-on. Does it change at all while in 4wd?

[abracadabra]

Ah yes, before I head back to the city I'm gonna do a quick checks.

Test drive in 4WD, the quick checks w/ bar for upper/lower ball joints, then have someone rock the wheels at 6 and 12 and see if I can see where the play is.

Loose bearings: would the wheel only be loose at 12 and 6 or why not at 3 and 9 too?

We'll see what I turn up here.

mark

[timsrv]

Rocking the wheel at 6 & 12 is typically for checking ball joints & rocking at 3 & 9 is for checking Tie rods. Of course loose bearings will be part of whatever play there is in both tests. If you're just feeling a small amount of play and it's the same on both sides then that's a good indication it's normal. If a large amount of play is detected, then you need to get a helper to wiggle the wheel for you so you can get down there to see exactly where the play is coming from.

Having a small amount of play from your wheel bearings is nothing to be worried about. For most vehicles with this type of tapered wheel bearings it's normal. On the 4wd van Toyota recommends torquing the spindle nut to 11 ft lbs, but having torque here (even 11 ft lbs) will accelerate bearing wear. It's my experience that torque on that nut will not stay anyhow (after a few hundred miles the torque will be back to 0). When I set these up I usually torque the nut, spin the wheel by hand to seat, then back it off to hand tight before setting the lock nut and bending the locking tabs.

FWIW, bad ball joints won't make noise that changes with speed. Other than clunking on bumps, you wouldn't normally hear them. Noises that change frequency with speed are typically associated with brakes or drive train. If the noise goes away while in 4wd, then you've ruled out the brakes. Tim

[abracadabra]

Okay found the problem.

In 4wd the noise was still there.

However, after checking the ball joints I tried to spin the front driveshaft. It was engaged. I lifted the right front wheel and spun it, the CV turned, this wheel isn't disengaging. The other wheel is fine but now after using 4wd it makes a noise like a baseball card in the spokes, but ONLY when up off the ground, not while driving.

How can I get the right front wheel unlocked? I've been wanting to upgrade to the manual hubs anyway but if there's a way to get it disengaged in the meantime that would be great.

Its been driven like this for many many miles, across the country too. Any potential long term damage?

mark

[timsrv]

Since it is just a standard differential I doubt it hurt anything (other than gas mileage). I never liked auto hubs for this very reason, so I agree this would be a great time to upgrade to manual. The good news is these hubs are the same as all the other locking hubs Toyota used in this era so they are common and plentiful. You can purchase new Warn (and other brand) hubs almost anywhere, but I prefer the original Aisins. They usually sell for about $75 a set on eBay but I would watch craigslist (last pair I got I paid $25 for off of craigslist). Tim

[timsrv]

When switching over, other than purchasing the actual hubs, you will also need nuts, washers and the 54mm socket. Here's a kit that has everything together (except the actual hubs). I have purchased from these guys before and was happy. http://www.wabfab.org/component/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,77/category_id,98/flypage,flypage.tpl/page,shop.product_details/product_id,702/

PS: Ignore the picture in their listing.........I think they got the wrong one posted. Here's a couple of hub listings on eBay.....these are just a couple out of many.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/91-TOYOTA-PICKUP-LOCKING-HUBS-/130587406374?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AToyota&vxp=mtr&hash=item1e679db026#ht_2771wt_1396

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-pickup-Hubs-/170749851543?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item27c17bf797#ht_162wt_44

UPDATE 8/24/14: Before ordering from WabFab check THIS POST (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2227-My-experience-with-Wab-Fab-the-Wabbit-will-fab-it)

[abracadabra]

Oh yeah thats a great price for the kit w/ socket, I'll have to go that route. I think I found some good hubs, we'll see if I can get the price down.

You gotta love the WabFab site, "the Wabbit will Fab It", just classic!

Oh, what about gaskets? Any gaskets needed?

thanks a bunch

mark

[abracadabra]

Yes I am on the hunt now for some of the Aisin hubs. Gotta be some local ones if I dig, in fact a buddy of mine told me he knows a guy with a 4wd parts van.....too bad I just lost my cell phone!

Funny thing about this, my gas mileage is good, I get 22-23 very consistently on the highway, I thought this was normal, and if fixing this hub makes it better, well, thats awesome!

Oh, here's something I'm gonna have to track down:

What are the Toyota part numbers for the 54mm nuts and washers I'm going to need? My local Stealership is terrible to deal with unless I have an actual part number. I think I need 4 nuts and how many washers?

thanks!

mark

[timsrv]

The WabFab kit is the way to go (link above) as you get everything including the socket. If you go to Toyota you will probably pay more and you won't get the socket. If you really want the Toyota stuff, here's what you will need:


(qty: 2) 90214-42030 WASHER, CLAW (FOR STEERING KNUCKLE WASHER)

(qty: 4) 43521-60011 NUT, FRONT WHEEL ADJUSTING

(qty: 2) 90215-42025 WASHER, FRONT WHEEL ADJUSTING LOCK

Here is a link for purchasing a socket separately: http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/otc1901.html (2-3/32" is the same as 54mm)

[timsrv]

BTW, there is a gasket behind the hub, but it usually stays intact and can be re-used. It would probably be a good idea to have these on hand just in case. It's Toyota #43422-60020 GASKET, FRONT AXLE OUTER SHAFT FLANGE (1 per side). Since you're in there it would also be a great time to inspect and repack the wheel bearings. If you do this you'll also need some grease and the grease seals. Grease seals are Toyota #90311-66002 SEAL, OIL (also 1 per side). Have fun! Tim

[timsrv]

Okay, a little more detail and a few more thoughts. There's also a gasket between the hub body and the face that can usually be saved and re-used but might not be a bad idea to have on hand for the upgrade. For the sake of simplicity I marked up a diagram with part numbers:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/4wd%20specific/4wdhubmanual-1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/4wd%20specific/4wdhub-1.jpg

Another thought regarding the noise, there's a spring clip on the diagram above that keeps your axle from moving in & out of the hub (it's marked #43413B). Make sure that clip is there as I've seen these make noise before when this clip was missing. Also make sure that the bolt marked #90119-08468 is there and snug. Tim

[Burntboot]

Tim is right again.
Red was missing the clip and the shim (43213C), though I had no noises to indicate anything was amiss.
At the time I just installed a new clip and shim but wish I had looked further at the time as there was damage in there.
Have since overhauled the spindles with new bushings/bearings and was able to save the axles, but it was close.

From page FA-60 of the service manual - install a small pair of vice grips to the axle end bolt and pull (22ft-lbs of force),
insert a feeler gauge between the washer and spindle outside bushing.
fr drive shaft thrust clearance: 0.075-0.690mm (.0030-0272in)
Spacer is available in 2 widths 1.80mm(.0709in) and 2.25mm(.0886in)

Glad you found your problem.

BB

[abracadabra]

Tim , thanks for the diagrams/parts numbers.

I'm gonna be bidding on some good used hubs today, I think I'll get them for less than $50 shipped which is a good deal I think.

Then I just have to assemble the parts and find time to do the job, which requires a trip back to my folks place in the country, no biggie!

My real hope is to get this done before the snow/ice hits in January/Feb.

Oh, what does one use to clean up the old bearings and races? And any wheel bearing grease is okay?

thanks!

mark

[timsrv]

Any grease rated for wheel bearings is okay. I used to only use the black moly grease, but recently switched to the expensive red synthetic stuff. Due to possible compatibility issues, if it's your 1st time repacking a particular vehicle, then it's important to clean out all the old grease with solvent and blow dry. Mineral spirits paint thinner is a good solvent and will work well to clean. When you blow dry be careful not to spin the bearings with the compressed air. You can get these things spinning incredible speeds and this is dangerous (they can fly apart and cause injury).

Over time the grease gets pushed/slung away from the roller bearings (where it needs to be), so repacking is simply to put it back where it belongs. If you already know the type of grease that's there (and if bearings look clean/undamaged) you don't need to wash them with solvent. Just pack more of the same kind of grease back into the cage with the roller bearings. Some newbies will pack the entire hub full of grease, this is messy and unnecessary. Too much grease can also create other problems like contaminating your brakes (be very careful not to get any grease on your brakes). It's a good idea to wipe just a tiny bit on the lip of your grease seal before sliding the hub back on, but other than that keep the grease inside the hub.

When it comes to your locking hubs, make sure they are clean inside and move freely. They don't need a bunch of grease, but there should be a thin film on the axle splines and on any areas where there's moving parts. Oh the joys of repacking bearings :wave1:. Enjoy!

[abracadabra]

Can I let the bearings air dry? I don't have compressed air unless buying a little canister of it will do.

One thing I thought of, I still have the receipt from the place in Portland where some previous owner had the bearings repacked a few years back, I can give them a ring and ask them what grease they use and if its what they have been using for awhile. Anything to save me some time, I just don't have any to spare!!

mark

[Burntboot]

On jobs like this I have found it prudent not to try to "save time" as it always ends up costing me in the long run.

I washed mine with solvent then a quick blast of brake clean because I didn't have compressed air available, lots of wiping was done during the process. I don't let them "air dry" as bare metal can start to rust very quickly. Rusty bearings are not good, get them into grease as soon as practical.
Inspect the bearings carefully, the rollers should be smooth - no ridges, rings or scratches. They should also be nice and shiny, almost chrome in appearance, if burnt they will have a visible blackish hue and must be replaced.
Keep all the bearings in order (ls/rs, inner/outer) and put them back in the same position they came out of.
If you replace the bearings, make sure you replace the races inside the hubs.
And always use new seals, it isn't worth trying to reuse, they will get damaged on removal.

I made the switch to synthetic grease years ago because we found it stays in place longer and will handle more heat.
As for packing, you can buy yourself on of those fancy gadgets they sell at auto parts stores, I prefer to do it by hand so I can see that the grease has fully penetrated and no dirt or air spaces remain, those gadgets also waste a huge amount of grease and I am cheap.

I have found the best method is to place a golf ball sized blob of grease in the palm of your wrong hand, holding the clean bearing in your predominate hand, push the bearing (on a slight angle so that the grease is pushed into the space at the bottom (wide end) between the race and cage) into the grease and give it a little twist as you go. You will see the grease start to walk up thru the rollers and squeeze out the top side of the bearing between the cage and the race. Keep turning the bearing as you go, you will likely see some dirt push up (at first) as you work your way around, just wipe it off with a separate rag and keep packing till you get clean grease, a thin wipe over all surfaces and place on a clean rag, do all the bearings at the same time, once your done, take all the excess on your hands and use it to wipe a thin layer on all surfaces - spindle, seal edge, hub.... then go wash and get ready to assemble.

If you work carefully you will be done in no time and know everything is 100%.
It really isn't the sort of thing you want to have to do again anytime soon so don't cut corners or take chances, Murphy is never far away.

I highly recommend a torque wrench too, knowing that you set the torque to the exact spec is comforting. Even more so if problems develop down the road, nothing worse than wondering if you screwed up, better to know you did everything by the book.

BB

[timsrv]

Great response BB :whs:

The other reason for compressed air is it helps blast out the grease that hides in the cage. But if you don't have it perhaps air in a can will do. Tim

PS: Mark, did you end up with those eBay hubs (my 2nd link)? I see everybody waited until the last minute to bid, and then they sold for more than the guys BIN price :?:.

[RawbSpear]

Check your transfer case, it may be loose.. If there is any play it will make a clunking sound, Cruising at low speed practically at idle. Sound goes away under power.

nothing you can do about it. my van does it, had it checked out and they said deal with it.

[abracadabra]

Yeah I am still KICKING myself on those hubs you linked too, Tim!!

I waited of course like everyone else and the suckers went up and up. What a bummer!

Anyway I haven't seen a deal as good as that so I ended up picking some up for $100 shipped, which isn't a great price ,but its not a terrible price either. I need to get it done and I was tired of waiting for the "dream" cheap set!

I'll update as I proceed, hopeufully in a week or two I'll have everything I need and if the snow continues to hold off then I can get the job done!

I was hoping to not have to buy a torque wrench, I totally lost the last one I bought, I know I need one but....

mark

[abracadabra]

I just checked for parts for the conversion with the Stealership.

I ordered the WabFab kit which covers alot of the stuff.

But for the gaskets/seals:

43422-60020 is apparently NLA
90311-66002 are $28 each? Is this is a crazy price? If I can buy these cheaper elsewhere I'd love to know about!

So now I just have to pick up a torque wrench and some grease and I'm good to go. End of next week will be the procedure!

mark

[timsrv]

Your dealer is a major rip-off. My guess is they don't sell the one gasket because there's not enough profit in it. That part number has changed, but it takes almost no effort for them to get an updated number. If you get these from Toyota, use an internet site like www.1stToyotaParts.com (there should be one like this closer to your location). Here's a copy/paste I got from their site:


GASKET FR AXLE OUTE [New Part# 4342260010]
Quantity: 1
List Price:$1.03
Your Price:$0.74


SEAL TYPE T OIL [New Part# 9031166002]
Quantity: 1
List Price:$19.08
Your Price:$13.76

It's possible that part is NLA from Toyota, but considering the wide range of applications, I'm guessing aftermarket would be readily available (and for less $$$). Check with your local Napa or other auto parts store. Stick to the stores that employ seasoned automotive oriented workers........Example: if a pimply kid asks "do you want fries with that?" you're in the wrong place. :wnk:. Tim

[timsrv]

As you know I prefer genuine Toyota, but I'm not extremely loyal when it comes to parts like this. I just checked on www.rockauto.com and see that seal is available for a lot less than Toyota. Here's a copy/paste:

BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0523500 More Info
[Front Wheel Seal]; All Wheel Drive [Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty] (Only 10 Remaining) $2.56

They didn't show the gasket, but I'm almost certain Napa or another competent parts store could get that. I agree it would be nice to have on hand before the job, but it's likely you won't need it. Chances are the old gaskets will come off intact. Just have a razor blade handy in case it sticks. With a little care I'm sure it could be saved.


Since you're going to be in there anyhow, it might not be a bad idea to consider the subject matter in this thread: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?173-metal-knocking-in-4wd. Of course it will take a bit more effort to get the axle out, but if you're already that far in it might be a good idea. Have fun. Tim

[abracadabra]

Ah, I did end up picking up all the parts for a fraction of the price the dealership quoted. Thanks Tim!

I do have a question for folks, I read through the FSM today for the whole procedure that lies ahead. I think I have a good grasp on everything and have all the parts/tools I need, except one:

the manual mentions using a SST for getting the bearing grease seal in . What do I use for that?

I haven't checked the link in the last thread yet, I'm afraid to!!

thanks again folks!

mark

[timsrv]

I haven't checked the link in the last thread yet, I'm afraid to!!...........k

:LOLabv: I hear you, but there's really nothing on these vans that's too bad. At least these were made to be serviced and not "throw-away" like a lot of modern stuff. I like www.1stToyotaParts.com and used to purchase almost everything from them. It's their shipping that sucks. I got a gasket once they could have put in an envelope and got it to me for the cost of a postage stamp. Gasket cost $3 but the shipping was $10. I also don't like the way they calculate shipping on other things. I forget the exact numbers but they calculate shipping based on a percentage of your total $$$ (not weight). I guess it works out okay in many cases but it sucks when you get a $500 part that only weighs a couple lbs. So then, the same rule should apply on heavy items.........right?, WRONG! they make you pay extra for those :(:. Okay, so I realize I'm ranting......sorry, had to get it out. In the end it's all okay because due to their shipping policies I found a local dealership that beats their prices (partly due to my high volume purchases) :)>:.

As for SST tools, I have been working on Toyota vehicles for years and years and to date have only purchased 1 SST. It's kind of nice to have a special tool, but most of the time it's an unnecessary expense. I have a Bearing and Seal Driver Kit (http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-bearing-race-and-seal-driver-set-95853.html) that works for many things (and works exceptionally well for this). Because I'm a professional tech, most of my tools (including this) are Snap-On or a similar grade, but for very occasional use I think Harbor Freight would be fine. For all I know theirs is every bit as good as the Snap-On??? If you don't plan on doing this again, then I wouldn't even spend the $35 on the cheap set. Just cut a chunk of 2x4 and lay it down on the seal and beat it down evenly. Once it's sitting mostly in the bore use your hammer to lightly tap directly on the outside edge of the seal. Work it around the periphery to keep it even and stop when it's flush with the hub. Tim

[djshimon]

This thread is awesome, thanks everyone for the contributions because I know I'll be going through my manual hubs at some point. But anyways, I used a 1 and 1/4 inch wooden dowel that I partially hollowed out to use as a bearing press for my pilot bearing-just sayin.

[abracadabra]

Yeah the 2X4 and hammer is right up my alley, I can make that happen!

mark

[abracadabra]

Man, I've been having bad luck getting the Aisin hubs! Missed out on a few good deals, then bought some and they never showed.

Anyway, since the issue is with the right front auto hub not disengaging, how hard would it be to remove the hub and just get it to release, put it back on, then at least be able to drive the van without the wheel engaged until I get the Aisin hubs.

Seems like I'm not gonna have to deal with snow until next winter so maybe I'll wait until I can find some cheap hubs.

Anyone mess with the auto hubs? Basically I just need to make it 2WD and i won't touch the 4WD until I get the manuals but the auto hubs seem complicated.......is the brake part sticking? Do I just remove the hub and check out the parts?


mark

[timsrv]

I never really messed with auto hubs except to see how far I could throw them. I'm really surprised you can't find them. I just checked your craigslist and found THESE (http://cnj.craigslist.org/pts/2800149706.html) for $60.

[djshimon]

I thought if you put it in reverse for ten feet it takes it out of 4wd. Not sure but it's worth a try, for free even. Maybe try it twice? I miss Jersey.

[abracadabra]

Tim I did see that listing, but those are for solid axle vehicles correct? I thought I needed the later 86-95 hubs.

I've looked on Craigslist, I've called scrapyards, I've hounded Ebay where you can get a pair for $125 plus but I'm trying to find them cheaper. I did and then they never showed. Bummer!

I'm going to look at the manual today and see whats involved w/ the auto hubs. Its not REALLY a can of worms I want to open but I'd really like to unlock the wheel.

I have tried reverse, I've gone on back country roads and tried reverse in varying speeds and distances, it won't unlock.

I can go into 4WD and the other wheel locks and unlocks.

mark

[timsrv]

Oh yeah, sorry I missed that. Everything seems pretty dry right now. There's some on eBay but the prices are high. There's the one set with a BIN for $89 but he's trying to pull a fast one and rape you for shipping. Then there's THESE (http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Aisin-manual-4x4-hubs-Toyota-Pickup-84-88-Toyota-4Runner-84-89-Excellent-/110827013260?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AToyota&vxp=mtr&hash=item19cdce048c#ht_500wt_1180) but you have to wait and they'll likely go high.

If you need the van, then I'd just do what you said........just seems like a waste. Tim

[abracadabra]

I might have a lead on the hubs, but I'm still curious about unlocking the auto hub.

Now after looking over the FSM procedure on the auto hubs I know I DO NOT want to touch these things in regards to fix/overhaul.

But, if someone has successfully unlocked a wheel by some "shade tree" method involving a hammer or something, then I'd be interested in trying just to have the dang thing unlocked.

One thought I had was, if you lift the wheel off the ground and spin it backwards like its in reverse could you do something where you had someone hold the propellor shaft in place to try to unlock it? Could this damage anything? I'm just thinking there has to be a way to force the thing unlocked without thinking at all about making it functional.

mark

[timsrv]

I say take it off and survey the problem. Most of the time things become crystal clear once you can visualize. I'm sure you'll easily figure something out when you can actually see in there. Tim

[abracadabra]

Yeah I thought it would be a good idea to get it off and look at the mechanisms involved, however, after looking at the FSM the procedure isn't so straighforward....actually it looks a little scary to me, but, maybe its not so bad as it seems?

mark

[abracadabra]

537Okay folks I FINALLY got the Aisin hubs, they're in my hands as we speak.

The only issue I have is there seems to be missing a small metal piece that fits in the rear of the hub.

I have one hub with both pieces and the other hub has only one. These pieces come out. Can I furnish a new one with the appropriate length/diameter steel rod? Do I even need it? I took a pic, the metal pieces fit in at 3 and 9 on the pic, mine at 9 is missing.

Gonna knock this procedure out w/ wheel bearing repack next Friday!!

mark

[timsrv]

Those are dowel pins or "locator pins". They're really not necessary but they help hold the hub in place while you're getting the cones and nuts put on. Arguably they do add strength to the hub, but the strength of the 6 studs is already overkill for the power of a 4yec. The automatic hubs probably still have them so just rob from those before you test out your throwing arm :wnk:. Those hubs look a little gritty inside. Be sure to wash them out good with solvent (mineral spirits paint thinner works good) and blow them with air before greasing and assembling. Don't overdo it with the grease, just a light film is good. Tim

[abracadabra]

Man, this whole process has been crazy. The original Aisin hubs I picked up never showed up and the seller credited me, thats why I picked up the set seen in my last post.

Today the original ones showed up! Totally out of the blue. They're in better shape and not as gritty as the other ones.

I guess I'll sell the one set and keep the nicer ones and call it good.

Tim, I was wondering, when cleaning the hub do you soak the whole thing in spirits or just wipe it out w/ a rag?

thanks!

mark

[timsrv]

I use a drain pan along with a course bristle solvent brush. Submerge, splash, brush or whatever to clean it. Once the grit is gone blow dry with compressed air. Tim

[Harbilly]

Best thing I did to the van was toss the auto hubs. Good luck!!And enjoy!

[timsrv]

The other cool thing about manual hubs is everybody recognizes them. "Wow, I didn't know they made those things with 4wd" is a comment you'll hear more frequently with manual hubs.

[abracadabra]

Man this whole topic outlines months of trying to figure out getting all the parts together for the Aisin hubs which I thought was solution to the "wheel noise" I was having (stuck auto hub/engaged driveshaft)

So it should come as no surprise after all this that the day comes for the procedure and things certainly do NOT go smoothly at all.

I took the best looking/feeling pair of hubs I bought out to my folks place in the country. After breakfast I tore down the passenger side wheel, removed the bad auto hub (which wasn't straightforward as one of the torx head screws was stripped and I had to drill the head out to remove the brake assembly!)

Getting the bearings out/cleaned/repacked was no problem even though I never did it before (although I read the procedure over many many times)

Then putting everything back together with the new parts from the WabFab kit, I get to what I THOUGHT would be the easiest part, installing the manual Aisin hubs. I bolted down the hub body and when I went to put the dial on, exactly according to the FSM in the "free" position, it wouldn't be totally "free".....the driveshaft wouldn't turn but there was a clicking sound which made it obvious that the clutch in the hub was touching the axel.

Anyway this just tripped me out. The guy I got the hubs from sold them as working and they were clean and smooth, so I didn't rebuild them. I took the dial off and re-did the whole tension spring/pawl/large spring setup according to the FSM, and still when I put the dial on it wasn't "free".

Also in the FSM, in the section under tearing down/building up the manual hubs it says to check the dial in the body to make sure the bearing in the body moves smoothly in the "free" setting. These didn't do that, either hub. I should have tried this at home, but like I said the guy said they worked....

Anyway after hours of putzing around and blowing my brain about why they didn't work I was losing sunlight and had to get back to Philly for work. I put the hub dial on the body without the clutch and spring so I could at least drive home.

Now when I get back to Philly I have the 2 other Aisin hubs there, which I should have brought for comparison. I tried them in the "free" position....the bearing in the hub body moved smoothly.

I took the dial/clutch off the working ones, put it on the body of the one I was mounting, it worked.

What the hell?

Here's the answer: there are two different size clutches!!!!! The ones I was mounting have a thicker clutch which makes it so you can't totally disengage the hub! Its an obvious difference, see the pic.

Which tells me these hubs I was trying to install, which supposedly worked, could NOT have worked, ever. They must be mismatched? Anyone have an answer for this?

Well at the end of the day my right front driveshaft is now FREE, so I expect my gas mileage to go up.

BUT...........the noise I originally started this post about.....ITS STILL THERE!!

Man, you gotta love this stuff!

PS in the pic the one that works is on the left, I haven't measured but thats quite a difference I think!

Mark547

[Harbilly]

I got a noise like that but only in 4wd and it was the big bushing thing we talked about on another thread here. In 2wd the problem was ball joints. Tim will come along and give you some clear ideas now that your hubs are known good and you can disengage 4wd and compare sounds.

[Burntboot]

Buying stuff off the net can be a mixed bag sometimes. Sad part is, sometimes people lie.

You need to lift the rear, UNLOCK the fr hubs and engage 4wd, put it into 2nd gear and let the clutch out.
This will get the entire driveline spinning (except the fr wheels) and you will be able to listen for the noise in question.
If your noise is at the wheel, check out the other thread for parts and procedures.

If your noise is in the diff, well, that would just suck.

BB

[Harbilly]

...and then report back. My bushings on the front axles (inboard ends) made noises only while driving, intermittently and often only while locked but not in 4wd. BB is spot on. Now you can really do some tests. Wheels up. Driving. 2wd. 2wd but locked. 4wd.

[timsrv]

I agree with BB & HB. You need to do some more testing. You might also want to check out that thread on the bushing/bearings I linked you too earlier in this thread. I don't know what to make of the different hub internals. I can only assume somebody swapped parts over from something other than Aisin IFS hubs :dizzy:. Tim

[abracadabra]

Well okay I will have to do some more testing for sure. Time is something I don't have much of, unfortunately.

The noise...I did drive a few months back w/ 4WD and the sound was still there, actually thats how I ended up finding out the right front hub was stuck and the driveshaft was turning. So if the axle issue makes sound in 4WD then probably I'm okay on that front.

I did run through the ball joint checks a while back too, using the bar to check for play on upper/lower. They seemed fine.

I'll have to see if I can find time to lift the back end after I finish up the other wheel/hub next week.

mark

[abracadabra]

To be clear though on the safety of this: I have an auto, so, if I get the back off the ground on jack stands I just get it in drive with 4WD engaged but the front hubs set on "free", and thats the deal? Listen for noise in the front end? I haven't done this sort of thing before so I don't want to injure myself or my father!

mark

[Harbilly]

Well Mark,
I'm going to bet on the bushing that toyota morphed into a small bushing with a needle bearing and maybe the inboard end of your driver side front axle being chewed if the noise is 'tap,tap,tap' of metal on metal and speed related with hubs locked.
But I'm wrong lots of times.
Test in the real world. Drive in 2. Drive locked. Drive in 4. Note the differences. Report back. Takes no time to do this testing!
Harbilly

[abracadabra]

Ah yes once I get the other hub done I will do this sort of drive testing 1st.

But to clarify, the noise isn't metal on metal at all. Its more like wump wump sort like a bad tire or warped wheel or something except that I've already ruled those out because the sound was there before I had a new set of Hankooks installed so....can't be the tires.....

mark

[timsrv]

Yeah, just make sure the hubs are free. Of course always take precautions and plan for the worst (don't put yourself or others in harms way). You never know when something unexpected might happen. Tim

[Harbilly]

Ah. Whump, Whump?
That would worry me (but I worry about everything). I would be imagining anything from jumping steering rack or front suspension parts or steering gear to a relatively innocent dead shock.
Once I was convinced that I had damaged the unit body at the front and I had flex. But I was wrong. Which was good.

Are you sure about the rims and rubber being sized right? Or that the rims are factory for the van? Or true? I run on tracker rims and keep waiting for the inevitable split to happen!

Tim is right, with a weird running noise you have to be thinking anything could happen.
We lost a rear wheel in the mojave once and got to thump down, slide to a stop and watch the tire (with axle still attached) burn about 50 yards off the highway where it had come to rest.

Of course, that was an overloaded Ford!

Anything can happen. Be safe!

[Burntboot]

Mark - Just to clarify, when you had the RS hub off, you verified that the axle cir clip and spacer were there, yes? (see Tim's diag on p1, pts# 43213C & 43413B)
The cir clip secures the drive-axle in the stub axle. The bearings and bushings we are referring to are inside the stub axle.
It is surprisingly easy to miss this, I did the first time around and only realized it once I got the other side apart.

The sound you have could be many things so the testing needs to be done in a logical manner to help narrow the search.

Get the LS sorted out, make sure you check the axle endplay while you're in there, then head out for the test drive.
Take a pad and pencil and write down your findings as you go.
Pick a place where you can do back to back test drives over the same circuit, that way you eliminate road conditions as a possible cause.
Drive in all modes 2wd, 4wd, locked and unlocked, also do it with windows up and windows down and take notes.
This may sound intensive but will only take about 20 mins and will provide most of the info you will need.

Once your back in the driveway, put the front up on ramps. lift the back and put stands under the rear axle.
You are trying to create the same attitude as when driving (weight on fr wheels).
The ramps aren't really required but make it a lot easier to get underneath.
This is where you must have the fr hubs unlocked otherwise really bad things will happen.
If you're not using ramps, make sure to chock the fr wheels.
So now you put it into 4wd (fr hubs unlocked) and trans in drive and slowly release the brake, van should not move but all the shafts should turn.
Also a good time to listen to all the drive-line components while you're under there.

Let us know how you make out.

BB

[abracadabra]

Well I'm narrowing this down I think. Yesterday I had the front wheel up so I could swap out the Aisin hubs with the correct working unit. I noticed that when I spun the wheel, there as a rubbing noise every half rotation or so. I don't think its the calipers rubbing but today I'm going to get the wheel off and get the caliper out to verify.

I think I have done a bit of testing with driving in various scenarios, the sound is TOTALLY connected to the wheel moving, it slows down/speeds up exactly with the wheel. So drive axel is out right? And other things that aren't connected to the wheel itself?

The drag I'm seeing/feeling in the wheel seems to slow the wheel down too.

I'm thinking MAYBE the brakes are dragging or perhaps I have a bad wheel bearing (I did have them out for cleaning/repack and I didn't see anything obvious but I'm not a pro so?? Also it seems you could have a bad bearing and it might not seem like you do)

But if the sound is coming from the wheel/hub, what else could it be but bearing or brake drag? I'll check today and report back.

Oh, if I do new bearings/races for that wheel what do I use for driving in the new races (FSM mentions SST)

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh, to respond to a previous reply, I did check/verify the presence of the C-clip and bolt on the axle, all good.

And you may wonder, if I'm hearing a wheel noise when spinning the tire, why didn't I catch it when I did the bearings/hub? Well, I ran out of daylight when trying to figure out the bunk Aisin hub dial, and had to get the thing together to drive.

mark

[abracadabra]

Okay so I just got back from checking some things out, beautiful day here in Philly.

I lifted the RF wheel and spun the tire, rubbing sound like I mentioned. Pulled the wheel and caliper, no sound. The pads are rubbing. I know a l little bit of rub is okay but I think these are rubbing quite a bit. I can spin the tire but the rubbing slows the wheel down eventually.

I checked w/ the other wheel, to compare, lifted it and spun, much freer spinning, just a slight drag, probably normal.

Glad that it doesn't seem to be the bearings.

Can brake drag make noise like I've been hearing?

I replaced the front pads maybe 6 months ago and I know my calipers were crusty, I thought to myself next time I do those pads I'm gonna have to replace the calipers.

Any thought?

mark

[timsrv]

That's hard to say. You could manually expand that caliper then take for a quick drive being careful not to touch the brakes (at least not initially). If the noise is gone then comes back AFTER applying brakes, then perhaps the caliper is to blame. I'd be a bit surprised if that is it, but at this point you need to look at everything. This type of troubleshooting is all about eliminating possibilities one at a time. Good luck. Tim

[abracadabra]

Yeah I really feel like this isn't the issue, I mean it should drag so much but it also doesn't seem like it would make the sound I'm hearing.

Also I realize today that just by spinning the wheel and having nothing but smoothness/no play that doesn't mean my bearings are out of the loop, since once the weight of the van is on the wheel/bearings it might be a different story.

Ah, wish it were simpler, but whatcha gonna do?

mark

PS the post about the wheel falling off got me kinda worried, I always felt that the noise I'm hearing is something that is amiss but it also doesn't sound/feel like something awful, like I should be scared to drive or fear for the safety of my family....but I guess driving in general is a risk anyway......

[Burntboot]

Tim is right on, again.

Mark - It's good that you've narrowed it down.

What were the pads like that you took off?
Was the material worn evenly or tapered along their length, inboard vs outboard and LS vs RS?

You mentioned the callipers seemed crusty, did you service them while you were in there?
You likely had to compress the pistons in order to get the new pads installed, did all the pistons move freely and equally?
Did you crack the bleeder screws loose to push the pistons back? If so, what did the fluid look like?
At one point you mentioned some missing pad hardware, has that been corrected and does it affect the RS?

What does the rotor surface look like? Any rust/pitting/pad imprints?
Did you replace them or have them turned?

Is the noise a sound only or do you also feel it, either through the brake pedal, steering wheel or seat/floor?
Does it pull or fade to one side while braking?
Does it track straight when not braking?
And most importantly, does the noise change when you brake.
BB

[Harbilly]

I had this once on a chevy. Out of round rotors and loose callipers. Every half turn the pads touched, the callipers moved (whump) but........
Could pad movement do this in case the calipers are good? Ie: touch, move, let go, touch, move, let go. If your pads are shimmying around perhaps? Seems far fetched, though.
But DO conduct the test outlined by Tim.
I had a dragging brake on the Van a few months ago and it was just hot and killed mileage. No 'whumping'.

[abracadabra]

Answers to the post below
-I don't remember the pads that I took off, the worn ones, I don't think they were obviously more/less worn on either side (but they were both low enough that the wear indicator was making noise)
-I didn't service the calipers, I did compress the pistons but they weren't easy to move (used a C clamp), I didn't open the bleeder just took the lid off the res.
-I haven't remedied the missing brake hardware(mostly because I didn't think it was an issue, maybe I'm wrong?)
-the rotors are worn but don't seem warped, some very minor pitting, I don't see pad imprints, I didn't have them turned
-I can sorta feel the sound but I can't say whether its through the steering or anything specific.
-it doesn't pull at all when the brakes are applied, thats why I ruled out warped rotors
-it tracks pretty straight when not braking, it wanders a tad but nothing I've ever worried about
-The noise doesn't change at all when braking, except for the fact that it changes with the wheel rotation, so, when the brakes are applied the wheels slow down so does the sound

Tomorrow I'm going to check the lowest common denominator: the rim/tire

I've mentioned before that I got a new set of tires put on last year and I thought I heard the sound before that, BUT after talking w/ my wife, who drives the van as much as me, we can't TOTALLy be sure that we heard the sound before/after getting new tires. So I figured I can't REALLY say for sure its not that, so tomorrow I'll throw the spare on and see what happens.

mark










Tim is right on, again.

Mark - It's good that you've narrowed it down.

What were the pads like that you took off?
Was the material worn evenly or tapered along their length, inboard vs outboard and LS vs RS?

You mentioned the callipers seemed crusty, did you service them while you were in there?
You likely had to compress the pistons in order to get the new pads installed, did all the pistons move freely and equally?
Did you crack the bleeder screws loose to push the pistons back? If so, what did the fluid look like?
At one point you mentioned some missing pad hardware, has that been corrected and does it affect the RS?

What does the rotor surface look like? Any rust/pitting/pad imprints?
Did you replace them or have them turned?

Is the noise a sound only or do you also feel it, either through the brake pedal, steering wheel or seat/floor?
Does it pull or fade to one side while braking?
Does it track straight when not braking?
And most importantly, does the noise change when you brake.
BB

[abracadabra]

Well I ruled out the simplest possibility today, for sure. Put the spare on, same sound.

Its funny, as silly as I would have felt if it turned out the problem was the wheel/tire I've been secretly hoping that it was the solution....what an easy fix it would have been.

Oh well, back the to drawing board!

In a few days I'll be finishing the wheel bearings/Aisin hub install on the other side and then I'll hopefully have some time to do some more testing.

I've begun thinking about taking the van in somewhere just to have the sound diagnosed. We're on the verge of moving to Maine, its not a long or hard ride but I need to be sure things are sound before we load up and go. I hate paying someone a bunch of $$ for this but I'm also coming up stumped and just don't have the time/knowledge to spend on checking things out.

mark

[Burntboot]

Too bad, that would have been nice.
At least you have ruled out the wheel, 1 less thing to worry about.

Diagnosis needs to be done in a logical manner, where you rule out things as you go, as well as correcting the things you find along the way.

On the brakes, having missing hardware could impact performance and safety, so it needs to be corrected.
Will it fix the noise, probably not, but it will eliminate 1 more thing and increase your confidence in the rig.

Unless you have a mechanic that you know and trust, you should find the time to do this yourself.

The fact that the noise does NOT change when braking, I would think that the brakes are not the source of your problem.
But until you correct the LS hub and bearings, there is little point in going further, maybe the LS is locked up too?
For the record, if the fr hubs are unlocked and the TC is in 2WD, you should be able to spin the fr propshaft and fr axles by hand, without the wheels turning.

As to the bearings, if the were shiny and smooth (no radial ridges/grooves on the rollers or the races) then they should be okay.
If they had a blackish hue to them, (races and/or rollers/cages) then they are burnt and require replacing.

Also of note, the RS has new bearings,the LS does not, your spinning resistance test is not based on sound principles.
The side with freshly packed and adjusted bearings will have more resistance than the side that has not been serviced.
BB

PS warped rotors will not make the brakes pull, but the will induce a vibration felt in the steering wheel. Movement in the brake pedal would indicate rear drums out of round.
Pulling or fading to one side, is usually associated with pads/shoes not moving freely and evenly.

[timsrv]

:whs: Great info from BB. I can tell he's been around the block (more than once) and knows what he's talking about. Thanks BB for your informative posts :thmbup:. Mark, good luck with the diagnostic work. I'm hoping you have the time to finish yourself. If you do, hang in there (you'll be a better man for it) :). Tim

[abracadabra]

Well, I took the van in to have someone look at it, just to diagnose. They're not Toyota pros but they have a super solid and loyal following here in W. Philly, they're within walking distance, and they're very friendly and straightforward.

With that said, they just called and can't find anything wrong except a bad lower ball joint on the left side (not where the sound is)

They also said there is play on the driver side wheel (the side I haven't worked on/repacked yet) which will be fixed when I do those bearings.

They said are you sure its not the wheel bearing?

What issue would a wheel bearing have to have in order to make the sound I'm hearing. Like I said I didn't notice anything with the wheel bearings after they were cleaned, but, can one be bad without seeing that its bad? Should I just replace the bearings/races to be sure?

I'm sorta running out of time, gotta take care of so many things before I leave. I can certainly make time to finish the bearings/hub swap but man this is kinda driving me nuts!

mark

PS As far as bearings/races go, I'm kinda confused when I look at a place like Rock Auto. Do they come with races or are those separate? What do I use to drive in the race?

[emma'87]

I havn't done my vans wheel bearings but have done them on several other vehicles including a 4WD truck, a good shop manual with a picture is worth a lot, the wheels come off and the outer bearing comes off in your hand as you pull the wheel off the spindle, watsh the order of the washers and any spacers and once off pry the seal out of the hub and access the inner bearing, if your careful you can reuse the seal but why would you there cheap. anyway, clean the whole thing up all the grease and such maybe in a can or shallow pan with some kerosene and a good stiff bristle brush, blow out with compressed air if you can. when clean a good visual inspection, look for heat discoloration and pitting, and if you find any thing other then a easy spinning nice looking bearing replace. as for the races, you can buy a brass drift from an auto parts store and use a decent size hammer with the drift to tap out the races. you can see a slight lip where you can catch a little bit, work your way around and tap, tap. if you need to replace them buy them as a set and tap the new ones in, when you repack the bearings with fresh grease use a rubber glove to avoid some mess and get grease in every little place u can:yes:. it's easy, the only extra tools are the drift and the air compressor.

[timsrv]

Mark, I'm a little confused. Are you saying you cleaned and repacked the bearings or not??? Did you do just one side? If just one side did you do it on the side with noise or the other side?

Assuming you already cleaned, inspected, and repacked the noisy side, then I would have to say it's not the bearings. In order for a freshly packed bearing to make a noise that loud, it would have to be in really bad shape. I couldn't imagine you not noticing if the bearing was that bad. There would likely be very obvious damage (like chunks missing and parts falling out during removal). Not to mention it would feel rough like gravel when rotating by hand. Did the hub feel smooth and quiet when rotating? If so then it's not the bearings.

It seems odd to me that a professional shop can't hear or locate the problem. Just how loud is it? Do you hear it while driving with the windows up? If it's that loud then it should be easy to isolate. At this point I think you should finish the repack and hub conversion. And then (if it's still an issue) complete the troubleshooting as outlined earlier in this thread. If the bearings look good then I wouldn't replace them. If you do find a bad bearing or just want to replace for the heck of it, a bearing and seal driver kit (like I linked to earlier in this thread) is the cat's meow. There are other ways to do it, but you need specific diameter disks to apply even pressure while you drive them in. It can also be done with a hammer and a punch, but you need to be patient and slowly work the punch around from one side to the next. The races are hardened and pretty tough, but if you get impatient or hit the punch too hard you can still cause damage. Tim

[abracadabra]

Okay to clarify, sorry to be confusing:

The passenger side wheel has been cleaned/repacked/etc. They bearings did look fine, the wheel spins smooth with no noises. I only mentioned replacing the bearings because I can't seem to find another cause!
The driver side wheel will be finished next Monday. Then I'll do some test driving like mentioned before, and if I have the time I'll bring the back end off the ground and do the other test.

The noise is audible when the windows are up. It SEEMS like the sound is coming from the passenger side wheel, especially since it sounds like a "rotational" issue and its certainly not coming from the driver side wheel (which would be obvious since I'm sitting right over it!)

The shop did say they didn't think the sound was serious, which I agreed with, but, that doesn't mean I want to just ignore it!

Mark

[abracadabra]

Folks-

Big news here, the sound that I started this topic about is gone, hopefully for good.

Today I finally had the time to finish the Aisin hub conversion on the drivers side. Things went smoothly enough, I had to drill out all 3 torx bolts that hold the auto hub brake assembly in, but, since the thing went right in the garbage can I didn't mind a little destruction!!

The 1st thing I noticed once everything was off was that this side of the axel was missing the C-clip and spacer/bushing thing that goes on the end of the axel. The axel bolt was present. I thought, aha! This might be the source of my sound!

So I cleaned up the hub and bearings (which all looked good), got everything back together freshly packed and adjusted per the FSM, and then went for a test drive.

I was fully expecting the sound to still be there since I thought the sound probably was from the missing parts.

Guess what? The sound is gone, totally and completely gone, and the van drives totally smooth and silent.

Pretty awesome huh? Must have been something w/ the auto hub or bad adjustment on the bearings or?? Who knows?

Anyway all is not totally clear as I did hear another sound....I'm not sure if this is a new sound or something we just didn't hear because the old sound covered it up. It was not consistent, and can only be described as sorta sounding like I was dragging something under the van, it wasn't real loud and I couldn't tell if it was rotational or not. I even pulled over at one point because I thought I was dragging something, but I wasn't. Whats more, this sound only happened a few times and only at lower speeds. Highway speeds were smooth, great.

I wonder....what sounds are associated with the missing axel clip/spacer?

Which leads me to the next question, what are the Toyota part numbers for these? Is there just two parts, a spacer and clip?

I attached a pic, to help.

thanks everyone!!

Mark584

[timsrv]

Tim is right again.
Red was missing the clip and the shim (43213C), though I had no noises to indicate anything was amiss.
At the time I just installed a new clip and shim but wish I had looked further at the time as there was damage in there.
Have since overhauled the spindles with new bushings/bearings and was able to save the axles, but it was close.

From page FA-60 of the service manual - install a small pair of vice grips to the axle end bolt and pull (22ft-lbs of force),
insert a feeler gauge between the washer and spindle outside bushing.
fr drive shaft thrust clearance: 0.075-0.690mm (.0030-0272in)
Spacer is available in 2 widths 1.80mm(.0709in) and 2.25mm(.0886in)

Glad you found your problem.

BB

Emphasis on the 1st part of his statement :LOL2:. Okay, the spring clip (snap ring) is Toyota part #90520‑27023. There are actually 3 spacer sizes available. They are as follows:

90560‑27005 T=2.0, T=2.0
90560‑27010 T=1.8, T=1.8
90560‑27011 T=2.25, T=2.25

These are cheap (probably a couple bucks each), so personally I'd get one of each then go with the one that fits the best. You can get all scientific with a fish scale or dynamometer, but I usually just pull the vice grips with one hand and insert the feeler gauge in with the other. Glad you're making progress, it sounds like you're just about there. Tim

[abracadabra]

I just ordered the parts.

Do I need a special pliers to install the clip?

And I'm wondering, I can get at this by not tearing everything down, right? Does the wheel need to be up or can I just get the 4WD hub off and do the procedure? Its just trickier to find a good spot to do work in the city, which is what I'll need to do in this case.

thanks!

mark

[timsrv]

There are probably other ways to get it on, but I'd highly recommend a special pair of pliers for this. Here's a picture of a nice/expensive pair, but I think you could probably find a cheap pair someplace that would get the job done.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/IMG_1518.jpg

You can do this without jacking and removing the wheel. Just pull the locking hub and get-er-dun :thmbup:. Tim

[abracadabra]

Would the pliers be called "snap ring" pliers?

mark

[Burntboot]

Mark - Glad you found the source of your aggravation.
As to what to do now, I realize you are looking for the quick fix but having already been down this road I would highly recommend replacing the
internal bushings and bearings as outlined in the other thread.
Mine was missing this part on the right side, I corrected mine as you are planning to do and all was good until I out it into 4WD and that was how I found out the rest of the parts needed attention.
The danger here is that with the bushing worn, the axles will be the next thing to get trashed, at $800/side I would be looking to salvage them.
I got really lucky, while there was a little scoring I was able to clean it up with #600 wet paper
At this point we know that you have been driving around with the fr hubs in locked position due to your defective hubs so excessive wear is already an issue. The fact that you had a noise, would make me think your bushes are already toasted.

As to your question, yes, pulling the hub is all that is required if you plan on installing a spacer and clip, no special tools are required.
As to getting the spring clip on, spread it just enough to get it onto the end of the axle, then slide it down into place.
I would do it on the ground or on ramps as you don't want the wheels to be hanging as it will change the angle/load on the axles and you may not get an accurate read on the required shim thickness. As to guessing, place the clip in the groove (not installed) while simultaneously pulling the axle while measuring with the feeler gauge and a shim, helps to have a helper as you will need at least 3 hands, you should be able to get close and only have to install the clip once.
If you do pull the axles, you HAVE to have the weight on the front wheels or you cannot get the axles out, I learned that one the hard way.
Check out the other thread for part numbers and tools.

As to finding your new noise, go back to the procedure outlined for finding noises earlier in this thread, it will allow you to pin point where the noise is coming from. Being cab forward design, just about everything is behind you and noises have an odd way of travelling, but you already know about that, because your previous noise was form the RS, but disappeared when the left side was actioned.
If your current noise is occurring without the huns locked then you should be able to diagnose it prior to actioning the axle as the loose axle is not in play when in 2wd. The fact it 'disappears' at faster speeds doesn't mean it is gone, just the frequency is high enough
Your new noise could be coming form anywhere but going through the steps in a logical order should allow you to zero in on it quickly.
BB

[Burntboot]

Tim is right AGAIN. Those are the pliers to use.

If you are buying a pair of pliers do NOT get the ones with changeable tips, they only seem like a good idea until you try to use them.
Then you get to drive back into town and buy the correct ones, wasting more time and money.

[timsrv]

Would the pliers be called "snap ring" pliers?

mark

Yes, but there are many different types of snap ring pliers and you will be looking for a specific type. You want the "flat nose expanding type". I'm not sure if that's the correct name, but that's what I call them. The ones shown above are nice because they give you the mechanical advantage. This means better control & reduced risk of damage due to over expanding of the clip. A pair of piston ring pliers might work too. Tim

[timsrv]

Tim is right AGAIN..........


LOL, I can never get enough of this :rol: :lol: :LOL2:

[abracadabra]

Shoot, I was hoping the $2 Harbor Freight pliers with the changeable tips would to the trick! Anyone have a brand to buy thats not a million dollars? I don't plan on doing this again, hopefully.

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh about the axel bushing issue with these vans: I've read up on this, I'm not afraid of the work but its over $100 in parts, and, isn't the noise associated with these going bad only audible in 4WD? The new noise that I hear, which is low and intermittent, is in 2WD only.

mark

[abracadabra]

Okay, here's the real question in regards to installing the snap ring:

Can I just use a wood or rawhide mallet and tap the ring in place, just get the open end in place and be gentle?

I'm looking at all these different (cheap) pliers at places like Harbor Freight and I have no idea which one would work, and time is a major issue. The parts are on the way, should be here on Monday, and then I need to get the job done and finish packing, move to Maine.

Any thoughts would be awesome!

mark

[Burntboot]

Just about any set of (snap ring) pliers will do, as long as they are "normally closed" as you need to expand the clip.
You don't need to spread the clip much, just a little, if the tips are flat it will be easier than if they are round, but they will both work.
Avoid the wood and mallet, once the clip is sprung onto the axle, you can push it into place with your thumbs.
Hammers are best left aside, too easy to inflict damage on unsuspecting things, like threads and fingers.
Also, being a spring, it will resist the hammer and keep popping off causing more frustration.
BB

[timsrv]

Lol, I'm spoiled. I went out and bought the pair pictured twenty something years ago for the 1st one of these I did. So I've never had to "make due" or improvise :wave1:. Nothing like having the right tool, but of course I do this sort of thing for a living...........so it makes sense for me. I realize it wouldn't make sense for most other folks. Always having the right tool isn't always the greatest thing........my wife almost divorced me when I was in my "tool collecting" mode :lol:. Tim

[Harbilly]

1. Abracadabra: yes. That noise is 4wd only. Well, locked hubs only.
2. Tim: I had that same wife+divorce issue over firearms. I already had the tools when I met her but she couldn't see the rationale for different guns for different jobs. I had to stop buying them. I just couldn't get her to see that a muzzle loading black powder side by side 12 gauge, a break action single shot 12 gauge, a clip fed pump action 12 gauge and a semi-auto 12 gauge was not needless duplicatio, for example.

[timsrv]

Yeah, wives can be so closed minded at times :LOL2:. Just for grins I went to www.snapon.com and looked-up my pliers. They still sell the exact ones for $55 https://store.snapon.com/Snap-Ring-Pliers-Pliers-Snap-Ring-Straight-Tip-P647707.aspx . I think mine were more like $30 back in the day, but $55 still doesn't seem unreasonable (considering how much everything else has gone up). Every time I use them I still get that happy giddy feeling of knowing what a PITA the particular job could be without them :dance1:. Tim

[Harbilly]

I know exactly what you mean. The right tools make all the difference in the world.

[abracadabra]

Well the snap ring and spacers are showing today, and I just picked up a middle of the road set of snap ring pliers, Craftsman, $20, think they'll do the job.

The new noise I heard, which was more metal/scraping noise, had disappeared until I got in the van today to drive to Sears to pick up the pliers. The whole way there I heard the noise, kind of a dragging/scraping sound, only while the van was moving but I can't really tell where its coming from other than front end.

This got me pretty bummed out, we're leaving for a 500 mile trip in a few days.

Of course, when I got back in the van to drive back to the house, the sound was COMPLETELY gone again!

What the heck? I lifted both wheels when I got home, one at a time, and spun/checked for play (just to see, make sure my repack/adjustment was good) and it was all smooth, no play.

I'm hoping that I can replace this snap ring/spacer on the driver side and the sound goes away.....but I haven't heard folks mentioning noise associated with the missing clip, or have they?

I'll update after I do the clip/spacer....

mark

[abracadabra]

Well now, got the parts in the mail.

Turns out after seeing the spacers and snap ring with my own eyes that I actually removed these when I did the hub overhaul. You see, there was a 3 week lapse in the doing the two sides, the first side I did slowly and it had the snap ring/spacer, and the second side (drivers side) I was sorta rushed. My mom was having all my grandparents over because we weren't going to be out there again before leaving for Maine, and I was trying to get the job done before lunch, kept pushing back the time, didn't want to do anything wrong but in the end I removed this snap ring/spacer thinking it was part of the Auto 4WD hub brake assembly.

So....now I ended up spending $$ on the parts AND the pliers (the wrong ones, they worked but it was a pain) and I never should have had to do it!

I kept the parts I removed from the van originally, so I had the original spacer, put that on, wrestled with the snap ring/pliers (ended using a screwdriver too to get it on) and the axel is now tight and within spec clearance wise.

I was surprised actually at how much the axle could move in/out of the hub without the snap ring/spacer.

I took a little drive with the fam for some dinner, we didn't hear any sounds, but then again the new sound was intermittent so I won't believe its all fixed until I do some real driving, which will happen Thursday, 500 miles to our new little farm in Maine.........

mark

[timsrv]

Lol, you must be an honest guy. I consider myself honest.........but I would never admit to something like that :lol:. Oh well stuff happens. Let's just hope this is the end of these noises :wave2:. Tim

[abracadabra]

Well we're in Maine, the van was a real trooper on the way up, 23 MPG fully loaded!

However, the "new" noise was present at low speeds, getting on/off the highway etc.

Once we got unloaded I did some checks on the country roads here.

You know what I found? For whatever reason, this new sound I hear goes away when the drive axles are engaged (hubs in "lock"). Specifically, the passenger side one makes the sound go away when engaged.

This is really kinda hilarious, as I changed out the auto hubs to begin with BECAUSE the passenger side hub wasn't disengaging and the drive axel was turning.

Why would this sound go away with the hubs/axel engaged? I'm just driving with the one engaged, to not hear the noise.

mark

[timsrv]

It's gotta be something touching/rubbing between the hub and the axle when disengaged. You got an extra set of hubs, right? try swapping one of them with the noisy one. When you open it up look very closely for shiny spots and or any other indication of contact. Tim

[Nater]

Just ordered all the parts and tools to begin this undertaking. So appreciative of all the info here! :thmbup:

All of the Aisins on eBay are very expensive and pretty beat ($200 for a rebuilt set w/o hardware, ~$130 for individual grimy ones), so I'm going for Warns ($160 brand new) and banking on the lifetime warranty.

I'll try to document the process as I go... and hope to not screw it up!

[Chardog1971]

I think I am in the same boat. I have a, new to me, 87 manual with the dreaded auto hub set up. after a top end rebuild, I took her on her maiden voyage. aside from the air bubble in the cooling system, everything seemed smooth for a van that sat for a while. There was some slight vibration ,which I attributed to flat spots on the tires. started to get worse. not present while coasting. put it in gear and it really shakes at this point. Heading home I decided to try the 4WD. find some mud and engage the lever. Indicator light comes on. No 4WD. try lo range to no avail. It did drop into lo gear, just no front engagement. off with the hubs I guess.:redvan::yellowvan::greenvan:

[Burntboot]

Chardog - I would suspect you have (at least) 2 problems going on.

From what you describe, your vibration is ever present, I would be looking at the back end, verifying oil in the diff and checking the rear propeller shaft/U-joints specifically.

Fr auto hubs are likely toast but as long as they aren't keeping the fr axles engaged they won't cause you any more grief than not having 4WD accessible.

[Chardog1971]

Your right about the u joints. I went to move it last night and it did the same thing. I pulled up on to a curb, so I could see whats up. Sure enough the rear joint is trashed. I remember checking it out when I bought the van last fall but, I must have failed to notice or else it was so worn that it broke loose during the test drive I took when I first put it back together. Either way, easy fix, so I am happy as a clam.:dance2:or maybe i'm just bananas.

I am still confronted with the fact that the POS auto hubs dont work. I use the 4WD alot this time of year, mud season, so its important that I get this fixed soon. at least its not the daily driver. I Will start checking e bay for some ASIN manual lock hubs. There are a couple of guys across the street who are into the Japanese (ie. right hand drive) Toyota 4WD trucks. I wonder if they might have something? Looks like the same hubs but, who knows?

Thanks all for the collective knowledge:redvan::yellowvan::greenvan:

[AD2101]

Ok guys, hoping someone can help and I figured I'd try and hijack this thread instead of starting a new one. It is with much resignation that I've come to believe that my rear driver's side wheel bearing is on it's way out. It's a constant "whirring?" sound that only seems to be getting more pronounced and concerning. I was hoping it was coming from my rear drums, which needed attention anyways but weren't the cause of the noise. Then I was hoping my rear diff fluid was low (it wasn't, plus the fluid in there is less than 2 years old), and finally, with my dad rolling around in the back of the van, he was able to narrow the noise down to the rear driver's side wheel.

I've found the relevant section in the FSM, and oh boy do none of these steps sound fun. Remove brake return spring (grr (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?5454-Drum-brake-return-spring-issues)), disconnect the brake line (not difficult I know, but I've had to bleed the brakes 4 times in as many months for various reasons), and THEN the fun stuff happens. Per the FSM, I am then supposed to take a grinder to the bearing inner retainer before attacking it with a hammer and chisel. THEN, for the replacement bearing inner retainer, it says I am supposed to "heat the bearing inner retainer to about 302° in an oil bath," then use a press on this part while still hot. Seriously??

I lack a press, so parts of this job were going to be outsourced anyways, and I imagine the machine shop wouldn't scoff at using an "oil bath." I've looked online for hours, and haven't been able to find anything useful in regards to a DIY solution. Has anyone tackled this job before and know of any tips? Alternatively, might this be one of those jobs where its just a better idea to pull the axles out myself, drop them off at a shop with all new Toyota parts, and let them figure it out?

[timsrv]

Here's a couple of threads where we've had that discussion:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2509-Pressed-rear-wheel-bearings

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1358-Wheel-bearing-parts

[AD2101]

Thanks Tim, not sure how I missed both of those threads but they had exactly the information I needed. I may be psyching myself out but this job feels a little outside my comfort zone, I'm just going to pull both of the axles and bring my bag of new parts to the machine shop and let them sort it out. Hopefully that and some fresh diff fluid get rid of this noise in my rear end :rol: