Power steering using alot of fluid! [Archive]

abracadabra

07-29-2011, 02:30 PM

Okay folks, got a little issue I'd like to nip in the bud before it turns into a bigger issue.

My power steering unit has been using ATF fluid. Seems like I need to top it off every few weeks to a month. I didn't think much of it, heck, just top it off every so often no big deal.

Today, I'm under the van because I have this pesky coolant return hose clamp that likes to loosen up and drip coolant. The radiator light went on around a corner and when I popped the engine compartment open, sure enough there were some drops of coolant around that hose and I got a few turns on the clamp with a screwdriver.

Thats how I got here. I went under the van with my flashlight just to make sure there weren't any other drip spots and I noticed my alternator has ATF (cherry juice!) on it.

Now that kinda sucks! Now the whole issue with the power steering seems a little more serious since it seems like my alternator is getting a bath it doesn't want!

I know there's a hose that can go out and do this, but, I'm pretty sure the previous owner of the van replaced this hose with the expensive factory one before I bought the van. I need to check my papers on this but I seem to remember this.

Any other places to look for as far as leaks w/ the power steering? I couldn't see much underneath. Right now the power steering is empty, I ran out of ATF, so I don't think its leaking too much but it has leaked enough over the past months that there is still some on the alternator.

Any leads/ideas would be great!

mark in Philly

1987 4wd runnin' strong!

abracadabra

07-29-2011, 06:34 PM

Oh, on the same topic but in a different direction, I thought why not disable the PS by removing the belt and then dealing with it later?

Then I saw a post elsewhere that said this about the topic:

"every one in this comunnity knows about the recal on the bevel gear of the generation 2 vans cuased by the lack of assitence when turning the wheel with the engine stopped.
i think that was the description on the nhtsa report.
no ps assit; turn the steering wheel enough times; the bevel gear develops a stress crack and you end up twisted like a pretzel around a light post
so i suggest you keep the ps pump running. different steering systems but why agravete the situacion?"

Is this really true? Thats kinda scary.

Oh I did check and it looks like the return hose and another hose where replaced very recently but not the pump.

mark

timsrv

07-30-2011, 05:29 AM

Here's a thread on power steering system leaks: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?317-Power-Steering-Leak . I agree with the other poster about the recall. IMO it's unlikely to you'll destroy the gear box, but why tempt fate? Besides, the van is more fun to drive when you have working power steering. Good luck. Tim

abracadabra

07-31-2011, 10:41 AM

Well I found the leak.

Its coming from the outlet of the pump where the pressure line comes out. You can see ATF seep out when I turn the wheel, dripping fluid right in the vicinity of the alternator. Shoot!

It sorta seems like there is enough room to get at this section, but I'm not sure what rings/gaskets are in that section, and if I can order them through Toyota (there's a dealer a few blocks from my house).

Also would it be just a matter of undoing the bolts there and replacing the gaskets? I've never had to remove a pressure fitting like this before.

Also, in the pic you'll see a metal tab/bar the spans the pressure line nut to the bigger nut thats on the body of the pump. Whats this for?396

thanks for all the help so far!

mark

abracadabra

07-31-2011, 10:46 AM

Oh I'm looking at the FSM and it shows an O-ring in the outlet there where the pressure line hooks up...whats the part number for this guy? I'd love to be able to do this with the pump in the van, maybe save my alternator for a little longer.......!

mark

timsrv

07-31-2011, 02:49 PM

That tab on the banjo fitting is there to keep it's position in relation to the pump. When the bolt is tightened the fitting tends to rotate and that tab also prevents that. There are several potential parts that can leak in this area. The banjo fitting has 2 copper washer (one on each side of it). These are Toyota part number 90430-16242. These are not likely to leak unless the banjo bolt is loose, so check that 1st. There are also 2 o-rings that seal the pressure port to the pump (see diagram below)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/powersteeringpump.jpg

The big o-ring is Toyota part #90301-22001 and the small one is #96711-19014.

I'm not sure why, but Toyota uses several different pressure hoses (depending on year and model). The hose they call out for an 87 4wd with automatic transmission is #44410-28110. This is an expensive hose (around $100) and probably no longer available. If the hose is the problem then the best thing to do is remove it and take it into a hydraulic hose shop. They can repair it by replacing the rubber parts of the hose. Good luck. Tim

abracadabra

07-31-2011, 03:49 PM

Tim-

Thanks for the info RE: parts numbers.

I'm pretty sure the hose is fine as I can see the fluid weeping out of the port when the engine is running. I'll order the O-rings tomorrow and maybe the washers for the banjo bolt too (do they have parts numbers?).

This seems pretty straight forward right? I cover the alternator with bags to protect it from ATF, I disconnect the banjo fitting, I get the pressure fitting bolt off, pull it out and replace the O-rings, then put it all back together.....am I missing anything?

mark

timsrv

07-31-2011, 04:17 PM

the washers for the banjo bolt too (do they have parts numbers?).

90430-16242

abracadabra

07-31-2011, 04:42 PM

Looks like the hose is still available through a few places 44410-28110, but the cheapest price I've found is $242!!!!!!!!!!

I'm gonna be real careful when handling that sucker, geeesh!

mark

timsrv

07-31-2011, 05:28 PM

Wow! I knew it was expensive, but that's ridiculous. Another option might be this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Omega-Hose-Mfg-83836-Power-Steering-Pressure-Hose-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aToyotaQ7cModelQ3aVa nQQhashZitem2eb566a440QQitemZ200611898432QQptZMoto rsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_972wt_11 65

abracadabra

08-03-2011, 11:18 AM

Okay, update on this front.

I ordered the two O-rings plus two gaskets for the banjo bolt from Toyota. They showed up today, I paid too much for them but oh well, thats the way it goes!

This was a straight forward procedure, which was nice.

I got the radiator overflow out of the way first, this makes it easier to get at.

Then I covered the alternator with a few plastic bags and then put a big rag under the pressure port to catch fluid. My system was low on fluid because I didn't top it off knowing I would have to do this, so not too much fluid came out.

Then its just a matter of getting the banjo bolt off, which is easy, then the big pressure port bolt which was good deal tighter (I actually had to break it with a few heavy blows of my large wooden mallet!).

Then that big bolt comes out, there's the small O-ring on the bolt itself and the large O-ring seals the bolt to the body of the power steering unit. In my case the smaller O-ring looked okay but the large one was quite flat like a pancake and just seemed suspect.

After replacing the rings and gaskets I got everything snugged up and it doesn't appear to leak. I topped off the fluid and I'll monitor in the next few weeks to be sure.

And after inspecting my alternator visually it doesn't look like it has received too much of an ATF bath, hopefully she wasn't hurt too bad!

thanks!

mark

RangerJoe

11-01-2013, 12:41 AM

I too have to add ATF about every 2 tanks of gas and it creates a mess under the hood on that side.

Have any of you had success with the after market ebay pressure hoses? Toyota wants way too much money for this part.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291004600237?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

If the hose is crap it is not worth the effort to install and I will just keep adding ATF and park over cardboard!

timsrv

11-01-2013, 04:12 AM

Here's a better solution: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?143-88-2WD-LE-Power-Steering-Pressure-Line-Fix

End cost will be about the same as the eBay hose, but this is a better fix and actually easier to do. The factory hose is somewhat of a PITA to replace (due to length). Repairing is less involved.........especially if you do it the way I did and use compression fittings (no brazing or soldering required). Tim

Sam_Slaby

01-18-2019, 03:16 PM

My van has leaked power steering for the past year. Until recently it lost about a quart a month. Small price to pay so I just accepted the cost and topped it up about once a week. Now the reservoir empties after a few days of driving so I need to address it if I'm going to keep the van.

The leak is coming from somewhere in the vicinity of the rack, not the pump. I attached a few pictures of what I saw when I removed the driver side wheel. Can anyone tell where exactly the leak is coming from? I have never done PS work so it's hard for me to visualize the system. I also attached a picture posted by Tim in a different thread. He was able to take a clear photo of the PS rack because he had the engine and radiator out of that particular van. Can someone point out to me where on Tim's pic my leak is likely coming from?

Any help is much appreciated!

Sam

Sam_Slaby

01-31-2019, 12:06 PM

I went ahead and ordered a remanufactured power steering rack. I'm gonna do the job myself but I need some guidance on the process. It looks pretty straightforward looking at it under the van but there can always be bugaboos! My understanding of the sequence is roughly this: remove inner and outer tie rods, disconnect hydraulic lines, disconnect steering wheel shaft/linkage, unbolt rack itself...installation reverse of removal etc. Any tips? Tricks? Challenges I should know about?

phychotron

10-08-2019, 01:59 PM

Just replaced the alternator that finally went out because of all the power steering fluid. Was wondering what I would need to repair/replace to get the leak to stop. Its coming out of the hose on the top from the looks of it.

phychotron

10-08-2019, 02:20 PM

some photos

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Burntboot

10-09-2019, 07:44 AM

Phycho -
It could be the clamp, or the hose or the O-ring or .....

It needs to be shampoo'd and then rechecked.

phychotron

10-09-2019, 10:50 AM

I tried to tighten the clamp, nada.

Carbonized

10-09-2019, 11:46 AM

From the look of it, the clamp has been moved once down the neck of the hose barb fitting. You can see in-prints in the rubber just above the hose clamp. This kind of clamps can mash a rubber hose (old rubber, hydraulic fluid, 1000's heat cycles) to a pulp. Over tightening the clamp can only make it worst. I would bet that the section of hose above and in the clamp is now porous and slowly oozing fluid. Now, like Burntboot said the only way to tell is to clean the area with something like Simple Green and a pain brush, rinse with water and start from fresh.

Cali Cruiser

10-09-2019, 07:36 PM

Replace the power steering return hose with a 15mm hose. It seems like everywhere suggests 5/8" hose, but that fits too loosely. Everything is metric on the van!!! Don't use 5/8"...the hose clamp must be put on too tightly and will eventually dig into the hose and damage it.

15mm hose will fit better and you will not have to overtighten the hose clamps.

While you are at it, replace the o-ring on the underside of the metal bracket that the return hose connects to.

phychotron

10-11-2019, 11:07 PM

Ok, i'll try that. Anything special about the O ring? I saw the rebuild kit was $2 to 20. Wasn't sure what the quality difference was. (rockauto)

Cali Cruiser

10-12-2019, 07:29 PM

If i remember correctly, I was NOT able to use an O-ring out of the universal multi-size o-ring box that you find at Harbor Freight...the o-rings that were the correct diameter were too thick.

The easiest option is to just order the correct o-ring or purchase the power steering rebuild kit, since you may end up discovering the leak is coming from elsewhere...or there are multiple leaks. It took me 3 attempts to get it right. Now, I can remove the power steering pump like a pro!!!

phychotron

11-10-2019, 07:49 AM

Conductive metal, such as foil turns out to not be such a great idea as a shield. I was inspecting the area and started moving the foil a little bit accidentally and it slid onto the + terminal on the alternator and started a little fire I was able to blow out real quick. It looks like it had been connecting a little bit for awhile now based on how much carbon is built up. I replaced it with a thin plastics film.
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AnotherUser

12-10-2019, 06:42 PM

I have a 86 2WD maunal, is there a certain kind of fluid to use in the power steering reservoir?

Should I stay away from the generic "power steering" fluid?

llamavan

12-10-2019, 07:52 PM

Click on Advanced Search (upper right of the screen)
In the Tag field, enter "power steering fluid (ATF)"

:clap:

Gwen

AnotherUser

12-10-2019, 08:20 PM

For those using the search function and not tags:

Other posts are saying to use ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) rather than generic power steering fluid.

Power steering fluid shouldn't hurt anything. It's nice that the system was designed for Dexron ATF as it's cheap and plentiful. Power steering fluid will do the same job, it just costs more and comes in smaller quantities...........just don't put any in your transmission . Tim

Yes, even the owners manual tells you to use Dexron II Automatic Transmission Fluid. When Dexron ATF was discontinued (about 10 years ago), Dexron III superseded it.

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2641-Will-this-work-for-Power-Steering

So it sounds like Dexron 3 Automatic Transmission Fluid is what you should use for the power steering fluid.

timsrv

12-10-2019, 11:31 PM

So it sounds like Dexron 3 Automatic Transmission Fluid is what you should use for the power steering fluid.

:thmbup: :yes:

phychotron

12-12-2019, 06:58 AM

timsrv

12-12-2019, 02:42 PM

Any idea where I could find 15mm hose that can handle ATF? I see 5/8's is the standard in all the stores.

Yes, please tell. If it can be had I'd appreciate knowing where to get it. FWIW, I've been using 5/8" ID hydraulic hose for over 5 years with no leaks, but if it ever starts leaking I'd rather replace with something that fits exactly right. BTW, 15mm = .5905" and 5/8" = .6250" (a difference of .0345"). That's not a lot, but I agree that finding a perfect fit is preferable. Tim

Carbonized

12-12-2019, 03:42 PM

Just make sure you use these. The hedges are rolled and the slots are indents: Nothing there to cut into the rubber if slightly over tightened,https://images.globalindustrial.com/images/275x275/PG84590.jpgfor safety use a pair side by side to cover more hose area.:thmbup:

Cali Cruiser

12-12-2019, 07:43 PM

PCV Emissions hose 19/32" (15mm)

Found at most auto parts stores and sold by-the-foot.

Before concerned individuals ask if this hose is safe as a LOW-PRESSURE RETURN LINE for the ATF fluid that is used in our power steering systems, I will outline reasons that I feel it is a safe option.

...ATF is simply a lubrication oil with additives, such as rust/corrosion inhibitors, detergents, etc.

...PCV hose is a multi-purpose hose that is made of Nitrile Rubber (SYNTHETIC RUBBER) and safe for gas, diesel, E85, oil, and LUBRICATION OILS. The hose is reinforced with synthetic fibers.

...According to the SAE J30 Standard for fuel, oil, and emission hoses (which includes the PCV hose), the operating pressure is up to 145psi. The operating temperature is -40 to 257 degrees Fahrenheit.

...According to the SAE J189 Standard for a low-pressure return hose, it is made of a synthetic rubber. The operating pressure is only 100psi when hose clamps are used. The operating temperature is -40 to 250 degrees Fahrenheit.

...I personally have been using the 19/32" (15mm) PCV hose as a return line for some time now. In my opinion, it is the same, if not better than a so-called "power steering return line". I have experienced no leaks, no fluid "sweating" out of the hose itself, no bursting or bulging of the hose. No other issues to speak of. On the other hand, the 5/8" return line that I replaced was leaking, deteriorating, and had the hose clamps digging into the hose. When I initially purchased a replacement 5/8" return line, it fit loosely and the clamps dug into the new hose immediately when tightened. I felt that this was unacceptable, so I researched and hunted for a safe alternative. This is what I found:

PCV Emissions hose 19/32" (15mm) made by Gates.

I am sure there are other brands, yet have no opinion on any hose brand being better than another.

phychotron

12-12-2019, 11:24 PM

I sent Gates's engineering department an email asking if their PCV hose is suitable for Dexron III in low pressure applications. I hope they get back to me before my new alternator arrives. I'll keep you posted what they say.

19/32" hose is 15.081 mm. 5/8" is 15.875 mm. A difference of .8mm. There should be a ~.44mm gap around a 15mm barb when using 5/8" hose. Whereas the gap of 0.04 mm for 19/32". Which is about what would be needed to put it on easily.

timsrv

12-13-2019, 03:40 PM

For what it's worth, I used Parker Push-Lok 801-10 5/8" (16 mm) ID 250 psi hose. It's reinforced synthetic rubber hose for use in pneumatic and light hydraulic applications. I used the narrow stainless worm drive hose clamps and mine hasn't leaked a drop since I installed 75k miles ago (back in the spring of 2014). I got mine in black, but it's available in different colors. It can be found for ~ $5 per foot, but for ease of purchase it might be worth paying a little extra to get from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Parker-801-10-BLK-RL-Push-Lok-Multipurpose-Hose/dp/B01GEQU29W#feature-bullets-btf. I purchased a 4' piece and trimmed it to fit. Tim

phychotron

12-15-2019, 04:17 PM

It pays to shop around. Called 5 local auto stores, only one carried 5/8" power steering hose, at $28/foot. That Parker hose 4' section on amazon would have been $33. I almost ordered it there but they only had 3' in black, 2' in red (which I wanted to match my van) and plenty in blue. Usually when someone tells me to check Amazon I go to eBay and can usually find it for cheaper, or slightly more but free shipping (some people use their prime account to sell amazon stuff on ebay that way)

This time I found a 10' blue section for $30. I'll have a spare, or be able to sell the rest. Plus it should be here before Christmas, something amazon wasn't sure of.

I went with that Parker hose because of the braided reinforcement. All the other power steering hose was reinforced with just a few strands, and $20+ anyway.

Cali Cruiser

12-15-2019, 06:12 PM

Just some points to ponder...

250psi hose that has braided reinforcement is simply overkill for this application. You are replacing a LOW-PRESSURE RETURN LINE. This hose will never see pressure in this range, not even close.

In addition, the hose clamps along with the loose-fitting 5/8" hose will be your "weakest link" and eventually be your source of a leak.

The 15mm hose doesn't even need hose clamps because it fits perfectly snug, although I put them on anyway for good-measure.

In my opinion, the 5/8" hose fits too loosely for this application, and is not the best long-term option.

I'll try to remember to update if/when my 15mm hose leaks in the next 30 years. Maybe all of you 5/8" hosers can do the same. :sfr:

phychotron

12-18-2019, 06:06 AM

Couldn't find 19/32" PCV hose anywhere in stock. One store suggested it calls for 9/16" hose (14.3mm)

Andywear

12-18-2019, 10:21 AM

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?6703-Power-steering-hose-failure

wheres all the humbug about hose type and size in my thread?? :)>:

Drop down to 1/2" hose and apply pressure until its on???

ps... the mechanically correct answer has been provided as well as options. now everyone is spiting hairs on what is less then a 1/16" I.D. of a rubber hose which no doubt has a larger tolerance from the manufacturer than that. haahaha....

phychotron

12-18-2019, 08:48 PM

Replaced the hose today, it was a snap. The Parker 5/8" hose fits on snug. Feels like it will last a lifetime.

My question is about the curvature in it, will it matter that its a bit wavy? Should I try and level it out a little bit? I tried to slide the foam off the old one to get it to fit in the bracket but they seemed stuck on. I was thinking about getting a piece of pipe insulation next time i was at home depot.

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