Van sputter and hesitation after hauling a##.

[Cornato]

I was late for work today and was speeding, around 85-87 mph. For a few good miles or so. And when I let off the gas and pressed the gas again, I instantly felt it lose power. At the light it sounded like it was gonna die on me. It feels like a John Deer and sounds like one. A horse and buggy could beat me off the line. No power no acceleration, sounds and feels terrible. It vibrates a lot, like visibly shaking if viewed from the outside.

Now I thought the problem was because 2 days earlier I seafoamed the crankcase. But as soon as I got off work I changed the oil. And it didn't fix it. But my power steering started working!!

I'm thinking fuel filter but I don't want to drop the tank if I don't have to. Help.

[timsrv]

Please elaborate on "it sounds like a John Deere". Could you hear lifter noise (clickity clack)?

[Cornato]

I guess, I'm not sure. I've never heard a lifter noise before. It sounds like an old boat. Like a rhythmic cough, plop plop plop plop plop....etc. Sort of like how a super tuned dragster sounds when idling. My friend thinks I have a dead cylinder and it's just on 3 that's why it's so weak. I'm about to change the plugs and check vacuum hoses right now. I also order new wires, air filter, and fuel filter.

We hope it didn't jump timing or burn a valve. I'll let you know more later.

[timsrv]

If the oil pressure was gone it would make lifter noise and you might also hear rod knocks. If it was close to seizing up then the power would really suck too. That's probably not it though, was the temperature normal?

[Cornato]

Yes, temp was norm. I'm thinking it was vacuum hose the busted loose. Because I can hear a sucking or hissing sound from the engine bay when the hood is up.

That makes sense to me. I was going fast=high rpms=high vacuum. Then I just let off the gas completely=less vacuum-aka- more pressure=a ruptured or crack hose.

Is my logic correct here?

[timsrv]

Yes, it's true that a vacuum leak will make the van suck for power and can cause it to run rough. Check your air tube to the throttle body too. Tim

[Cornato]

Wrong, my logic was flawed.

Why I don't know. I just replaced all the hoses I saw coming off the engine. They were hard and brittle and I thought I saw a crack in one hose. But They did nothing.

I replaced the spark plugs and hoses, except the brake booster hose, but it's still putt-putting. Tomorrow I'll replace the air filter and spark plug wires.

I'm narrowing down what the problem could be, but also running out of solutions.

I'll try to take video and post it so you can see what I'm taking about.

[mbc]

Sometimes the EGR valve can stick open (causing an excessive lean mixture) when the Van is driven hard; especially if there is a lot of carbon buildup in it.

Try TAPPING the top of the EGR with a small hammer and see if that helps... that is assuming you haven't bent any valves. You could try cleaning out the modulator next to the EGR valve

Just a thought.

[Cornato]

OK, but where is the ERG valve or the modulator. I don't have a reference, so I need a picture or at least a rough description before I use a BFH.

[mbc]

Scroll down to EC-3.

[Cornato]

Welp, I replaced all the vacuum hoses, spark plugs, spark plug wires, air filter, and checked/cleaned the modulator. It wasn't too dirty. I smacked on the EGR valve, no avail.

Still running crappy and I have to drive it. I can't not. I'm about to take it to a shop. Tired of headaches.

WFH do I do now?

[Cornato]

I'm about to do a compression test, change the PCV valve, and change the cap and rotor. So maybe that'll help.

I'm gonna have to take off the seats and other engine panel. So I need a couple more hours than I had today. More info tomorrow.

[Cornato]

UgghhHHHhhh.....:wall:

I changed the cap and rotor and PCV valve today and it didn't do crap. They both looked terrible, so I was like eureka!!! Friends and the auto parts store guy all agreed the cap and rotor was the problem. I thought I solved this problem. Wrong.

I even took the valve cover off and cleaned it out really well. I made sure all the vacuum channels were clear. I ordered a new valve cover gasket and stem gaskets.

I didn't do the compression test like I should have. But i don't know what to do next.

Here's a review of what I've done.

Changed air filter
Changed spark plug wires
Changed spark plugs
Changed Cap and Rotor
Changed PCV valve and grommet
Changed vacuum hoses
Changed Oil
Fresh tank of gas
Checked EGR modulator

I've read tons of threads on here and TVP and other sites. I have a lot of the same symptoms as other peoples vans. But don't know what applies to me. EGR? TPS? Fuel filter? Bent Valves? Piston Rings? Intake manifold? Head Gasket? ECU? Gremlins? Demons? Karma? WTFFFFFFF??!!?! Help. :cnfsd:

[timsrv]

Are there any codes stored in the ECU?

[Cornato]

I don't have a code reader or know how to check for codes.

Also note that before the problem started;
I used Seafoam in the gas tank and engine crankcase day prior to this problem.
I was going very fast(almost floored) then let off the gas quickly.
I had done nothing to the engine except change oil since i got it.
I was told it sat for months before I bought it.
Most everything on the engine was factory.
I have no idea of the vehicles maintenance history.
It does not have a cat converter
I use cheap gas
I usually run the tank almost dry before refueling
There seems to be a hissing noise when I apply throttle in the engine bay.


I know not very smart. But the engine was so perfect when I got it, I was focusing on the interior first.

[timsrv]

You don't need a code reader for these as they have a self diagnostic system built into the ECU. To learn how to read codes CLICK HERE (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?196-Engine-Service-Connector)

Did you check the air intake tube to the throttle body? They tend to tear near the throttle body end and on the back-side (where it's hard to see). To check for this start the van and while it's idling grab the tube and squeeze it. If the van stumbles or stalls then the tube is leaking air. A leaking air tube will make the van run bad because the air flow meter needs to monitor ALL the intake air to function correctly.

Here's a picture of a really bad air tube:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IntakeHoseCrack.jpg

Even one that's just barely cracked will make the van run bad......especially when in gear at low RPM or at an idle. This is because the engine torques to the side when it's in gear.........and this sideways torque makes the crack open bigger.

[Cornato]

I think the air intake tube has been replaced before as it seems in pretty good shape but I'll reinspect just to be sure.

And my check engine light is working but does not come on. It actually came on once for about 10 seconds the other day while I was on the interstate. But other than that it has never came on.

And what do you mean by "jumping" the connectors? Like shorting them out?

[timsrv]

If the light came on that means there is a code stored. On these vans the light doesn't typically stay on, it just comes on for a moment to let you know a code recorded. Use a paper clip or a piece of wire to connect the two terminals in that are in that plug. The code may or may not be related to your problem, but it's easy to check and just might hold the answer you seek. Tim

[Cornato]

Quick question, I used bulk hoses to replace the vacuum hoses. Just whatever size that fit I used. I didn't think it mattered, but the parts store guy said it'll close on it's self.

Should I buy factory replacement hoses or will these suffice?

[timsrv]

:cnfsd: I guess that depends on what you got. If it was designed for this purpose I doubt it would do that. Tim

[Cornato]

I think some of them are fuel lines, some are water lines. I don't know. I was just grabbing at hoses. No problem so far. But they are flexible. I'm worrying about them hardening and cracking.

Anywho, I'm gonna do a lot of tests and clean some stuff today after work. And take advantage of the long weekend, will post tonight hopefully.

[Cornato]

Ok Tim, I got everything taken apart and the first thing I did was jump the connector and I think the idle changed a little. It's even worse now. What was the point of that? The check engine light didn't come on and don't know I was expecting to happen.

[Cornato]

Ok, sun's going down here's what I've done so far. I took the valve covers off because my new valve cover gasket came in. It's looking good. I cleaned the air intake throttle body. I checked for vacuum leaks via propane enrichment, put a tube over a propane torch and check for change in engine idle. Attempted to take the fuel filter off, it's pretty jammed up, sprayed deep creep on it and waiting. And attempted to take EGR valve off as well but it's impossible for me to get to it. I took the cold start injector off and sprayed it out with carb cleaner and brushed it off and the hole it goes into.

Anyone know how to get to the EGR valve? That nut on the base seems impossible to get to without cutting into the wall or removing the intake manifold.

more later.....:dance1:

[Cornato]

OK, last night Grant P. came over and we put our heads together and collectively found a vacuum leak on the new PCV valve I put in. So we smeared it in Black RTV sealant and and decided to wait overnight because that HAD to be the problem.

Well the leak IS fixed but didn't fix the problem. So I Decided to do a compression test like I should have earlier, and they seem fine.

Cyl #1 @ avg 167psi
Cyl #2 @ avg 162psi
Cyl #3 @ avg 168psi
Cyl #4 @ avg 160psi

I don't know what they are supposed to be, but there isn't a dramatic drop in pressure between cylinders so I'm fine right?

And also I had noticed and mentioned before I heard a sucking and hissing noise from what seems to be the back of the engine. Is there a vacuum hose on the back of the engine that I missed? And I feel like I'm just talking to myself here anyone got any suggestions for me? Comments? Experience?

[djshimon]

I think the brake booster line goes behind the engine, right by the hose of death, but don't hold me to it. Also, when I had my power steering lines off (the two that connect to the power steering pump and look identical, maybe 1/8inch) my van ran like crap and I could hear it sucking. this probably won't help you, but it's what i got
-also, what happened with the intake hose? it's good? because that one definately cracks and sucks too.
-aaron

[Cornato]

Well I replaced the brake booster line that I could see but I can't see where it terminates. And the intake hoses is showing signs of crack, very very miniscule though. No effect with propane testing.

I think I'll start to post how-to's from what I've done so far because I haven't found any help directly related to certain procedures on TV's out there. Like I've never checked or even heard of what an EGR valve is before. And someone would say "check the EGR valve" and I'm just scratching my head. So I started matching info from other vehicles and figuring it out my self. This could help someone else in the future who doesn't know much about cars or TV's in general.

[Cornato]

OK sun's going down, wrapping stuff up. Tried to test the TPS with voltmeter and crap, but the instructions are only for certified mechanics or electricians. My Dad is both and still couldn't understand WTF they were saying. So I'm just gonna try and put it back on in the original position and buy a new one just to be sure. I think it might be the problem but need to know how to adjust it. I don't know what else to do. I need instructions with laymans term, very easy to understand. I'm smart but don't have all that much mechanical knowledge. I'm just getting frustrated and tired.

:drunk:I'm going drinking.

[Cornato]

OK, after a full day away from the van I've calmed down a little and began to review.

Sorry if I seemed angry or ungrateful, I appreciate all the help ya'll have given me. It's just frustrating when I can't fix something right away. This never happens to me, I'm always "johnny on the spot" with repairs.

I've been looking over threads from TVP and this site and have a few more things to test and replace. I ordered a new TPS, throttle body gasket, thermostat, O2 sensor, and coil.

I found an easy way to adjust the TPS on TVP. And I'll do it all this this weekend as I'd rather knock it all out at once. So hopefully I'll have an update on saturday.

Long weekend was supposed to be fun. Not for me. :(:

[joegri]

cornato i,ve been painfully watching this thread and it touches a nerve in me cuz i too have had some issues over the years with these vans but, some how they get worked out eventully.for me i dont trust a mech in a shop cuz they could say "it cant be fixed" but you and i know better! you,ve spent alot of time and money to fix ,er and no results. i know it,s hard but maybe you could seek out a real pro in yer area and bite the bullet n have them fix it.the worst thing that it could be is "it cant be fixed" at least you,d be back to this spot in time.it,s frustrating i know. "nobody can hear you scream when yer in outer space" just a thought. best of luck to ya. i feel yer pain man.

[Cornato]

After 2 sleepless nights of searching forums for the dumbed down version of how to check Diagnosis Codes. I checked it today and got the following:

5 blinks

Pause

6 blinks

Pause

11 blinks

Ok, so what does this mean? I see people saying they have code 23, 51, and other bigger numbers. Mine doesn't. I'm gonna still try and find a code decipher thing. any help would help.

[timsrv]

Sounds like you have a bad TPS and a bad o2 sensor. Not sure about the code 6 but that could be there from trying to start with the igniter or something disconnected. Here's a link to the what these codes mean: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?195-Diagnostic-Codes-for-Toyota-Vanwagons-all-years

Before replacing stuff though you should clear codes, run it, then check them again. Then only address the ones that come back. Having a bad o2 sensor and a bad TPS will certainly make it run like crap. Tim

[Cornato]

Ok, just reset them and will wait til tomorrow after work to check again. I already ordered a new TPS, igniter, O2 sensor and throttle body gasket. So those should take care of any codes I have I think.

Those were the last things I could think to fix anyway.

Maybe and update tomorrow or this weekend.

I join the Navy officially this Friday! Need to get the van running right before I leave him.

[timsrv]

The o2 sensor is straight forward. The TPS will need to be adjusted to spec when installed. Just remember a new but mis-adjusted TPS is no better than a bad TPS. Tim

[timsrv]

Here's a video I took the last time I replaced a TPS. Enjoy :)>:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/th_MVI_0426.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/?action=view&current=MVI_0426.mp4)

[Cornato]

Great video Tim! Hopefully my TPS will come in tomorrow so I can do it all on Saturday. Shouldn't be to hard. I just imagine the igniter may be a little difficult to get to. But I read a thread on an easy way to get to it so I'm not worried.

I'm about to check for codes again then head off to MEPS to determine my future.

Next time you hear from me I'll be gov't property. :wnk:


Sidenote: Great sound track to the video. Haha.

[timsrv]

I think that's great you're joining the military. I encouraged all of my kids to join as I think it's a great way to learn self discipline and get a start on a career. I was an Air Force guy and my oldest daughter decided to go that route as well (she is currently a USAF SSGT). My youngest daughter is in the USMC and just completed advanced combat training OORAH! Unless your job specialty is permanent latrine duty you will most likely find you have many more job opportunities open up for you after your discharge. Plus you will have the pride of knowing you served your country.

Other than me talking I wasn't even aware the video had a soundtrack. I had to watch it again to realize I had left my radio on while I recorded it. :doh: Tim

[Cornato]

I just got my MOS and ship date yesterday. I will be an Advanced Computer and Electronics Technician and will leave on January 11, 2012. So I got plenty of time to fix up Tex and go on some roadtrips.

I'm about to change out the 02 sensor and TPS. I also have the igniter to replace, but I don't think I want to take off the engine cover today because I don't think the igniter is the problem. So I'll just just fix the codes it's throwing.

I also had some other questions about stuff. I can start my van with a screwdriver, can take my keys out while driving. I can shift out of park with out touching the brake pedal and there's a lot of pressure when I open my gas cap. Just thoughts....

[llamavan]

I can start my van with a screwdriver, can take my keys out while driving.
True of most of these vans now.


I can shift out of park with out touching the brake pedal
Haven't seen this, but also only have one A/T (with low miles).


and there's a lot of pressure when I open my gas cap.
All of mine have pressure and hiss upon removing the gas cap; not sure whether you're experiencing something different or not.

Gwen

[Cornato]

Thanks llamavan, just wondering if anyone could shed some light on that stuff.

Now to the fun stuff...

Well just changed the 02 sensor and TPS. Dialed the TPS as per Tim's instructions. Felt very good about this because those were the codes I was throwing.

The 02 sensor code went away, but the TPS code and RPM code are still hanging around. I removed the fuse like you should to reset the ECU.

Now I don't know why it is still showing the TPS code. I bought a brand new one and set it right. It feels like its running a little better, but not like it was.

So what is up with the TPS? and can the TPS connector go on both ways, like upside down? Could that be messing me up? Is the connector bad?

I'm soooo helpless....Everytime I think I've figured this out I get so excited, and it doesn't work...I get super depressed. It's not a healthy relationship right now. :cry:

[Cornato]

Ok, just rechecked what codes mean what. And the TPS code was the 11 and it was resolved.

So the TPS is fine. But it's still blinking 5 and 6. So the 02 sensor code is still showing up and the RPM code too.

RPM code, which may be caused by the igniter failing. I'm hoping can be fixed. But why is the 02 sensor code still around? The sensor was bosch and the plug matched up right but the sensor head didn't look the same. Does that matter?

[timsrv]

It's a keyed connection to the TPS, so it won't go on wrong unless there's damage to the connection. The last time I did this (the one where I shot the video) I also got a TPS code afterward. I then checked the timing and checked for it to advance when I pulled the jumper out of the "check engine" connector. The timing didn't advance so I was like "damn, did I get a bad TPS?". Upon further inspection I realized I had forgotten to plug the harness into the TPS :doh:. I'm happy to report the problems went away as soon as I plugged in the TPS. You should definitely check the condition of the harness connection there. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Sometimes these type issues can be a real PITA to diagnose and repair. The good news is you're starting to run out of things to fix. Once you find and fix the real issue you'll have a practically new van :)>: . Tim

[Cornato]

You're telling me. Jesus Christ.

Well how do you check the ignition timing? And I also think maybe not all the VSV's are working correctly. Which I turn the key I can only hear the one near the filter box click.

[llamavan]

Check the O2 sensor wire to make sure it hasn't been compromised. If there's a break in the connection, the ECU will throw the O2 sensor code. That may not be your van's problem, but it's always best to check the easy things ...

Gwen

[timsrv]

I had missed the post you made about it not being the TPS..........I think we were posting at the same time. So anyhow, that's good the ECU is no longer throwing the TPS code. Did you clear codes AFTER you installed the new o2 sensor? Keep in mind the ECU needs to be cleared after repairs or it may continue to display the same code (even after the fault is gone). If you verified the o2 code was gone then came back AFTER the new o2 sensor was installed, then it's very likely the harness connection to it is messed up. Inspect it closely to make sure the wires and connectors are in good shape. Tim

[Cornato]

Yeah I didn't inspect the harnesses, TPS or 02 sensor. I'm getting so tired of spending every weekend working in my van.

And it would be pointless to take it to a mechanic because I've run every test and replaced everything he would. SO I'm so far into repairing it now I might as well finish it.

Good god how great it is gonna feel when I finally get it fixed. Tex will be invincible when I get him fixed. That's the only hope I'm holding on to.

[Cornato]

So I just went to a Toyota Specialty mechanic just to get an opinion, and he said they don't even work on these vans anymore! He said his mechanics would go on strike if they took another van in for repair. Haha.

He said to check the MAF though. He said they wear a grove in them from constantly moving and can stick. He said to open the part on top that you're not supposed to, and just caulk it back. I don't really like how that sounds. Thoughts?

[Cornato]

Ok, distractions this week prevented me from getting anything done. So tomorrow I'll swap out the igniter and maybe check the timing. After that I'm completely lost. I ordered a shop manual from ebay. So maybe that can help.

And by the way, right when I bought the van there was a van that just got to the pull a part by me. So I checked it out not knowing anything about the van just grabbed a cupholder. I went back yesterday after 6 months thinking I'd grab a few parts to keep in reserve....

Good God.

It looked like a burned out car in Iraq. That thing was bare metal. I don't know know how someone pulled a motor, tranny, a/c, suspension, etc with cars on all sides 2 feet away on gravel. Somebody really wanted EVERYTHING. Guess I underestimated how rare these things are. :shock:

[RawbSpear]

Here's a video I took the last time I replaced a TPS. Enjoy :)>:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT pics/Engine/th_MVI_0426.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT pics/Engine/?action=view&current=MVI_0426.mp4)

I love you Tim!!!. My 87 4wd van, 160k miles, "Sola Thumper" has been having the Hesitation when cold issue. i started checking everything and it came down to my TPS, code 11. (i keep thinking about TPS reports)....anyway i got mine out today and it sounded like a baby rattler. This vid was instrumental on the repair. I'll find out tomorrow morning if it all worked out. Funny part is van seems to run great after it has 20+ miles on it and is completely warmed up. The first 20 miles i thought the van was going to stall out if i hit a stop sign.

This last 2 weeks of trouble shooting i have replaced the Cold start thermo time switch(bad numbers on ohm meter, cheapest on amazon.com), the temp sensor(broke in half when i tried to take the connector off(rock auto), the t.p.s.(amazon.com), and the o2 sensor(rock auto). I also super cleaned out the throttle body, totally dirty, replaced vacuum lines, and cleaned out the egr regulator filter. Van seems to be running better than ever.

other recent repairs (5k miles): swepco oil change with oil improver, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, pcv valve and grommet.

Excited to drive it tomorrow and see if this project is completed.

[timsrv]

Thanks for the kudos. I hope that did it for you. Nothing like a correctly running vehicle. I got a crash course in GMC throttle body injection this past weekend (makes you REALLY appreciate Toyota quality). I challenge anyone to work on a 91 TBI 454 in Chev P-30 chassis. Seems like everything was an "afterthought" on this vehicle. I did finally have success and the vehicle was purring like a kitten when complete (thank God). Now I'm gunna go drive it up to the station and blow $300 on gas :doh:.........Tim

[RawbSpear]

van works better than ever but still hesitates. First, it only did it when it was cold. Now it only does it after initial warm up and then works fine after its been driven 10 miles or more. Only hesitates when i first run car that day but not on later missions. Any ideas?

[timsrv]

Vacuum leak? I don't know. Intermittent issues are the hardest to chase down. Good luck. Tim

[RawbSpear]

the MAS was showing bad numbers 28ohms instead of 200-400, on one of the connectors. Replaced it yesterday. Before i bought a new one i opened it up and found a broken solder connection. I repaired it but that did not fix the numbers. Van drove very well last night. Hoping i get better mileage to offset these sensor costs. Have to try it cold and see if still hesitating...crossing fingers.

[RawbSpear]

hesitation problem continues.
Im getting burnt and broke from this project. At least the van runs better even if the hesitation issue persists....

I dont get it. Ill bet its that stupid air sensor that make you have to remove the upper part of the motor to replace. Problem is everything i test says its supposed to be replaced.....

[timsrv]

Oh the joys of vintage vehicles. Things get old & need replacing. You test the things you can & scratch your head on the others. Sometimes these type runability problems are the end result of several smaller issues. I doubt it's the air valve though......unless there's a broken hose or vacuum leak. Sometimes when I get these type problems I just start swapping parts until I stumble across the culprit. I know it's not the most professional way to diagnose but if the part already has a couple hundred thousand miles on it I figure it's time anyhow. If the new part doesn't change anything then I'll save the old one as a spare :dizzy:. Eventually you have enough spare parts that you can swap them around to test future issues :lol:. If you have the space, having a parts van around can be very, very beneficial at times. Good luck. Tim

[RawbSpear]

I just found a thread on the other van site and it suggested the ignitor. The thread said it was temp sensitive. 400$ part....jeez.....may go to JY for this part just to try it.

My van has only 161k miles.

[timsrv]

Here's some: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=toyota+van+ignitor&_sacat=0. I always pick these up when I find a van in the salvage yard. Sometimes the yard will get greedy (those times I leave them behind), but I typically pay around $10 for these............and yes, the coil & igniter can be sensitive to heat & or moisture. These however are not the type of parts I'd associate with a hesitation.........but I've seen stranger things. Tim

[RawbSpear]

I got it!!!

it was the "idle up temperature switch". its one of the three sensors next to the radiator cap. The 2 other switches were bad too and have been replaced

Got it for 50 on eBay but 1sttoyotaparts.com had it for $90.

list of parts to make my van run better than ever. Everything here was broken at 160k miles:
M.A.S.- 225 eBay, Python remanufactured
T.P.S- 125 Amazon
Idle up temperature switch- 50 eBay
cold start timing switch- 130 rockauto
temperature switch next to 2 above switches- rockauto
o2 sensor

also cleaned Air filter -k&n
replaced vacuum lines
super cleaned throttle body

The new MAS has a rich/lean adjustment my old one did not have.

:rol: For the first time ever I dont have any knocking or pinging. :rol:

:bluevan:
755