Refreshing the engine (rebuild and aftermath)

[terrence]

Well, I have decided that the strange engine noises within the motor finally warrant a tear down. I am going to an engine builder to take care of the long block so my questions concern the rest of the engine. This van has never had overheating issues, so I am going to risk just flushing the radiator out really well and replacing every coolant line. I also am going to do the rear heater delete to save some headaches in the future. So here is what I am replacing:

radiator Hoses
coolant and vac lines
water pump
thermostat
alternator/power steering/AC belts
motor and transmission mounts
air/fuel/oil filters
spark plugs and wires
clutch kit
resurfacing the flywheel
alternator

Now my question is, what am I missing? I have combed thru a few of others users rebuild blogs/threads and I don't think I have overlooked anything. Or if anyone has any recommendations of stuff that should be done while the motor is out.

http://i.imgur.com/NPcp26R.jpg?1

[Rufus]

Distributor cap and rotor.
Power steering pump pressure and return lines.
Rear differential oil.
Transmission oil.
Transmission input and output seals.
Rear Main Seal.
Power steering pump. (If it whines and leaks)
Radiator cap.
Fan clutch.

[timsrv]

I'm assuming you read my ENGINE OVERHAUL (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2041-Blew-the-rear-main-oil-seal!-Engine-Overhaul) thread......That one outlines all the usual things (including rear heater delete). I put part numbers and links throughout that thread. Tim

[terrence]

Distributor cap and rotor.
Power steering pump pressure and return lines.
Rear differential oil.
Transmission oil.
Transmission input and output seals.
Rear Main Seal.
Power steering pump. (If it whines and leaks)
Radiator cap.
Fan clutch.

Thanks for the suggestions.



I'm assuming you read my ENGINE OVERHAUL (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2041-Blew-the-rear-main-oil-seal!-Engine-Overhaul) thread......That one outlines all the usual things (including rear heater delete). I put part numbers and links throughout that thread. Tim


I did! It is a very helpful resource.




*Edit: found the part I was looking for..

[terrence]

New parts are starting to roll in and in the mean time I am trying to fix all the little things. But this poor van is such a turd. Somehow the previous owner sheered off the transmission fill plug and it had to be JB welded back into it. Here it is screwed all the way in:

http://i.imgur.com/0KYit0u.jpg



And who knows how I am going to get this intake cleaned out. The entire lower and upper intake manifolds were covered in this black sludge that doesn't exactly just rinse out.


http://i.imgur.com/2D057hX.jpg

[Rufus]

You should look for a fire damage restoration company in your area that has a large ultrasonic cleaner. I had one ultrasonic ally clean all of my metal engine parts for my airplane. There is no chemicals (they use water), there is no loss of parent material (no sand blasting), and the parts came out spotless. I paid about $200 to have the crankcase halves, carburetor parts, cylinders, accessory cover, and a few other parts done. Great deal. It removes paint and everything. Even from the impossible to reach areas.

[timsrv]

I would also recommend having your injectors (especially the cold start injector) cleaned & tested. That residue looks suspiciously like the result of a leaky cold start injector. Tim

[terrence]

I would also recommend having your injectors (especially the cold start injector) cleaned & tested. That residue looks suspiciously like the result of a leaky cold start injector. Tim


I am going to just upgrade the injectors the the 4 port jams.

[terrence]

I finally got my motor back this week. Apparently the camshaft was shot so a new one had to be ordered and that was what was causing the "hold up". Anyway, it's all pretty and new looking:


http://i.imgur.com/itGfSdj.jpg


And here it is before it went into the van. It's all bolted up in the van currently, still need to bolt up the transmission, fill fluids and all the other little things. Should be done next week!


http://i.imgur.com/FsqQR2F.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PKxkoPz.jpg

[djshimon]

She's a beauty!

[timsrv]

I see the upper half of the intake is already "installed". Is it just temporarily sitting there, or actually bolted down? If bolted, how do you plan on hooking up injector connections? Did you make a removable injector harness? Tim

PS: Very nice looking engine! I like these type projects :thmbup:.

[terrence]

I see the upper half of the intake is already "installed". Is it just temporarily sitting there, or actually bolted down? If bolted, how do you plan on hooking up injector connections? Did you make a removable injector harness? Tim

PS: Very nice looking engine! I like these type projects :thmbup:.

I took inspiration from your injector harness and made one for my van. I'll take a better picture of it when I get out there and finish the install.

[timsrv]

I was wondering about that. Very cool! :thmbup:. When I build an engine I want it completed BEFORE installation. The removable harness connection here also serves to electrically access all injectors in the event of future troubleshooting. I have already used this once while I was troubleshooting a clogged injector (due to contamination in my fuel system). It was nice taking the guess work out of the troubleshooting. I mapped all injector pin locations prior to installing so I know where each pin on each injector is from my remote harness connectors :yes:. Tim

[Carbonized]

Sweet! Too nice to hide under the van. You need to make clear Lexan engine covers and keep pass. seat out!:thmbup:. Out of curiosity how much are you into it for? I'm looking at doing something like that after I'm done with the chassis:doh:

[Ian R.]

Awesome! I wish I had the space to pull the motor and send it out to rebuild. Would have saved me some $$$. What clutch kit did you go with?

[terrence]

I was wondering about that. Very cool! :thmbup:. When I build an engine I want it completed BEFORE installation. The removable harness connection here also serves to electrically access all injectors in the event of future troubleshooting. I have already used this once while I was troubleshooting a clogged injector (due to contamination in my fuel system). It was nice taking the guess work out of the troubleshooting. I mapped all injector pin locations prior to installing so I know where each pin on each injector is from my remote harness connectors :yes:. Tim

Yea, I wanted to completely assymble the motor before it went in so the harness was not an option for me. It was pretty simple, used a cheap 8 pin connector and my new injectors came with new plugs so I needed to replace them anyway.


Sweet! Too nice to hide under the van. You need to make clear Lexan engine covers and keep pass. seat out!:thmbup:. Out of curiosity how much are you into it for? I'm looking at doing something like that after I'm done with the chassis:doh:

Well, it was $850 for the rebuild plus an extra $240 for a new camshaft. It took much longer than expected but I really can't complain (so far) about the work. They removed broken studs, replaced everything, gave me a gasket set and a fresh coat of paint. That with fluids, and replacement parts I have about $2000 in this project.



Awesome! I wish I had the space to pull the motor and send it out to rebuild. Would have saved me some $$$. What clutch kit did you go with?

Exedy, I have used them in many other vehicles and love them.

[Carbonized]

Yes, you cannot really complain about the price. I don't know where in the US you are but here in Screwyouland $850.00 would barely cover the freeze plug and disposal fees:LOL2:. Looking at the last 2 pictures, your own elbow grease is definitely worth a "pretty penny" too! Great work, hope she runs a good as she looks for you! Yours is a lucky van!

[terrence]

Engine is all in and almost done. Got a timing issue or something, not starting. But something to tackle tomorrow.

http://i.imgur.com/iAR7mv9.jpg


Here is the 8 pin injector harness plug, along with one of many homemade cable straps. We figure that one of the previous owners pulled the head and just did a crap job putting it back together. Lot of missing parts and bolts.

http://i.imgur.com/1CDOoWo.jpg


Almost a van again!

http://i.imgur.com/oLuU7FV.jpg

[Ian R.]

Epic! She is a beaut!

[terrence]

Got it fired up finally. Ran like crap making an awful noise from the head. Sounded like a generator was running under the seat. Limped it home about 15 miles and let it sit over night. Fired it up the next morning and it ran as smooth and quite as could be. No idea what happened but it hasn't made noises in the last 40 miles I've put on it. Going to order an oil pressure and water temperature gauges just to keep an eye on things but, fingers crossed its good to go.

[timsrv]

That's weird, perhaps some of the lifters were not initially pumping up.........or perhaps they were pumped up too much??? Did you put them in dry or did you fill then with oil before installing?

[terrence]

That's weird, perhaps some of the lifters were not initially pumping up.........or perhaps they were pumped up too much??? Did you put them in dry or did you fill then with oil before installing?

I didn't do the rebuild, had an engine shop perform that bit. But 117 miles on it so far and no more issues yet.

[terrence]

Spoke too soon. The red "oil" light on the dash lights up after after driving for 15-20 mins and then goes off and on. I have both a low oil pressure and low oil light sensor on my van, but I only have a the one red oil light on the dash. So I am not 100% certain what it is in reference too. I ordered an oil pressure gauge and water temp gauge so I'll know for sure what is going on when that all comes in. Got inspection done today too and it started leaking coolant from around the intake. I cannot see where it is originating from but it comes through the little hole on the bottom of the intake and runs down from there (this was taken on the underside of the van):


http://i.imgur.com/BT28S9M.jpg

[timsrv]

There are the coolant bypass hoses on your throttle body, hopefully it's one of those.........because the only other place is the air valve between the intake manifold halves. If the hoses on your TB are okay, then you will likely need to remove the upper half of your intake manifold to access the air valve hose. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/cooling%20system/IMG_3259_zpst6qweov0.jpg

[Suzu]

That sort of looks like that "hose of death" thing...

[timsrv]

That sort of looks like that "hose of death" thing...

Yeah, it takes the same hose here too. The hose in this location is fairly well sheltered and seems to hold up well. I've never had one of these leak (yet), but I always replace these when I have the manifold apart. I also use the Toyota hose and the factory spring clamps here. I used to think the factory spring clamps were junk, but experience has taught me otherwise (there's an advantage to OE clamps). As the hoses get hotter/softer and the metal expands/contracts, and the hoses slowly give way to the external/internal forces, the spring clamps self adjust (always exerting a slight tightening pressure on the hose). It's this constant pressure that makes them superior. The stainless screw clamps seal initially, but as things heat, cool, settle, and slowly degrade due to external & internal forces, they do not self adjust and this leads to leaks. Not a big deal to re-adjust them when there's access, but a very big deal when there's not.

The down side to the stock spring clamps is you'll need to use the Toyota 8 mm ID heater hose. Standard 5/16" ID heater hose is identical (regarding ID), but the OD varies depending on what brand of hose you get. Since the spring clamps will only work correctly with a specific size & wall thickness, it just makes sense to stick with OE hose. Even though I happen to believe the Gates heater hose is better quality, the wall thickness prevents the spring clamps from working properly. You could probably get aftermarket spring clamps for the Gates hose, but why reinvent the wheel? Tim

[terrence]

A few of the OEM hoses are not available anymore unfortunately. I'm using silicon hose for most of what I couldn't get through Toyota.

[timsrv]

That particular hose & the hose of death are not available in OE anymore, but Toyota does sell this same hose in bulk. The OE HOD actually did have a slight bend formed into it, but it was so slight, the bulk hose has absolutely no problem conforming. You can buy in pre-cut lengths, but I usually buy in 300 mm (about 1') and cut to size. It's Toyota part number 99556-10300 (the 300 on the end is length). And yes, being OE it's ridiculously expensive ($8.53, ~71¢ per inch), but it's worth it to me for the piece of mind...........especially in those hard to access areas.

BTW, this hose is also available in 200 mm lengths (about 8") Toyota part number 99556-10200. Price works out about the same per inch, but I've found the 200 mm piece just slightly too short to make into 2 hoses of death. If you buy the 300 mm piece, you can get 2 HODs out of it (less waste). If you purchase from one of those on-line Toyota parts sites, you can save ~30% on price, but the shipping will usually make up the difference. Tim

[terrence]

Fixed the coolant leak awhile ago and forgot to update. It was the exact hose you pictured. There was a screw left in the intake manifold that was backed out just far enough to rub a pin hole in that hose. No idea why the screw was there but it was.

I have also installed a coolant temp and oil pressure gauge. Shortly after warm up the van gets to 240* F and stays there. Which is about the position it is on my van's gauge (even though there's no temperature values marked). My guess is that that old radiator needs to be replaced. I hoped a good flush would have fixed it but, not this time. Oil pressure seems fine, around 20 psi idle and 60 - 40 psi while driving. But those darn lifters are still so noisy even after about 1000 miles on this new motor. They do quiet after 30 minutes of driving but that is just not acceptable for a rebuilt motor.

[timsrv]

240° F is way, way too hot.........especially for a new motor. I personally would never run one of these above 230°. I will run them up to 230° but only very occasionally (like climbing a hill or something) but only for short spurts. As a general rule, you want to keep it below 220°. There's a few good threads here that will help you sort out your cooling system issues. Here's a recent one with links to some other good ones. Tim

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?4028-Coolant-everywhere!-(Overheating-duh)

[terrence]

After letting this thing sit for awhile I finally tore it open to see where that damn noise was coming from. Not to my surprise 3 lifters are really bad and one moves just barely. I am going to attempt to pull them without pulling the head but I'm afraid that may not happen.


https://youtu.be/FLhAgjeWyK0

[timsrv]

They make a lifter puller tool that will go down inside there. If you pull the spark plugs and the spark plug tubes this helps immensely with access.

[terrence]

Lifters came out easy. I got 8 new Meller lifters from autozone and put them in today. The toyota van fsm said to soak them in diesel fuel before installation but I just primed them in a cup of oil before hand. Getting the rocker arms and push rods all in together was a real aggravation. I ended up zip-tieing the rocker arms together in pairs in order to keep everything aligned. Then I fired it up and... sounds just as bad as it did before, loud clattering, and it bogs down at idle. I have no idea where to go from here.


https://youtu.be/DWO_QsNYRcQ

[originalkwyjibo]

Have you checked actual cam lift? Maybe you have some flat lobes. I'm not positive of the oiling circuits on these but the fact that all the loose rockers are together would make me wonder if you spun a cam bearing.

[timsrv]

Flat camshaft? Check travel with a dial indicator. Also, make sure the rocker shaft is right side up.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1007-Noisy-Valve-Train-Troubleshooting

[terrence]

Flat camshaft? Check travel with a dial indicator. Also, make sure the rocker shaft is right side up.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1007-Noisy-Valve-Train-Troubleshooting


Camshaft was replaced when the motor was rebuilt supposedly. Rocker shaft is correct, it was what I thought the problem was originally.

Thanks for the recommendations though guys.

[timsrv]

it was what I thought the problem was originally.

Thanks for the recommendations though guys.


So you were able to correct the problem? What was it?

[terrence]

Kinda, not really though. It was way out of time, fixed that. But there is still a lot of noise, my pops seems to think it's just old and that's how it sounds. Are 4ys normally noisy?

[timsrv]

Noise like that is caused from excessive play in your valve train. These parts will wear very quickly if you don't correct it. Something has thrown off your valve geometry. If you're sure the cam is okay, you have good oil pressure, the correct parts were used, and assembly is correct, then it could have been a machining error. If it's a machining error this can be corrected by getting custom push rods.

I haven't run into this issue in years, but way, way back in the old days, on some of the old-school engines (with non-adjustable valves) we could order push rods in different lengths as it was the only way to adjust valves. Some auto manufacturers used to offer them in different lengths too. If we had a noisy valve train, and a push rod was too short, we'd put a longer one in. I don't think Toyota ever offered this, but there are some specialty shops you can go and get these made. Here's one: http://www.pushrods.net/pushrods.html (I'm sure there's more). Of course before they could help you would need to take & record precise measurements so they would know the length to make them. Basically you position the cam so the lifter is on the base of the lobe, then measure the free travel between the rocker and the push-rod. Since you want the lifter to operate @ approx 1/2 of it's internal travel, you'd add .09" (full internal travel of our lifters is about .180"). Take the number you come up with (play + .09") then write "+.xxx" on a piece of tape and attach to the push rod. You should then write down the full desired length (push rod + play + .09") on a sheet of paper and make a note of which position in the engine it goes (this will be very important when installing the new custom push rods). Repeat this with the other 7 push rods. If you run into one with no free play you could skip it (probably okay), but I would rather get a complete custom set. Measuring is a little more complicated if there is no free play, but there are ways to do it. By the sound of that video, I'm guessing all your push rods are too short. Once you have all your numbers recorded, send you push-rods into the shop and they'll change the length or make you a new set.

For more information about the 4y valve train, ready my blog: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/entry.php?127-4yec-Engine-Rebuild-part-13. Tim

[terrence]

I checked after letting the motor run a bit and the lifters seem to be doing their job.
The rock arm assembly thing is on and in the correct position.
Push arm's are straight, but no idea about correct length's.
I have an oil pressure gauge hooked up and its reading anywhere between 40 and 60 psi.

So let's assume that the cam the engine builder got was wrong or defective; how would I even go about checking that without pulling the motor? And by "free-play" do are you referring to when there is no tension on the push rod and it can be moved by hand or something?

[timsrv]

If the engine has quieted down since that video was taken, then perhaps it was just due to the lifters not being "pumped-up" yet. If however it still sounds the same, then there is a problem. These are hydraulic lifters and there should be zero lash. This means there should never be any space between a lifter, a push-rod, the rocker arm or a valve. Matter of fact, there should be about .090" pre-load on the "self adjusting" piston inside the lifter. If the lifter is at the base of a lobe and you can move/rattle a rocker arm by hand (in it's normal direction of travel), then there is too much slack and something should be done to correct it.

When I said possible machining error I was refering to things like decking the block, shaving the head, grinding valves, etc. If the camshaft is new, then it's very unlikely it's defective (it's almost unheard of to see machining errors on these type parts). Still if you have excessive valve noise, part of the troubleshooting process is to rule things out. Cam lobe condition and lift can be checked with engine assembled if you have the proper instruments. If you don't have these things they can be picked up on Amazon and eBay for a reasonable cost (your time is likely the bigger investment). I use a dial indicator with a long extension. I have a mount bracket I made to bolt the mounting arm to the engine and it can be adjusted into place for each lifter. Specs for the camshaft are in the service manual. Tim

[terrence]

Finally got around to the van again. And you are absolutly corret Tim, the push rods are all to short. OEM are 6.380" in length all of mine are roughly 6.366 to 6.368". I think I am going to just order new OEM push rods and hope that does it.

http://i.imgur.com/bGhJw3s.jpg

[amcneill]

did the longer push rods fix your problem?

[JPERL]

That is way noisy. I have had about 8 different Vans and not heard a 4Y sound like that except for really cold starts and lasting about 10-15 seconds and that is on high mileage engines. Kind of reminds me of the sound a playing card would make in the spokes of a bicycle wheel

[terrence]

Push rods finally came in; no difference. I shot another video of the van idling. It's just as loud and sputters a lot.


https://youtu.be/JzaNu79J6KU



After running for a few minutes I noticed the low coolant light was on. And, well this is what my oil looked like:

http://i.imgur.com/Nn46OVj.jpg


It wasn't there the last time I worked on the van. I checked compression on all 4 cylinders and it's around 130psi on each one so I didn't blow a head gasket. But it's getting in there some how. I changed the oil and filter with some cheap crap just to flush it. I also took the valve train out again to inspect the rocker arms and shaft. The shaft had a lot of debris and gunk built up inside it so I cleaned it with mineral spirits and put it back in. I have installed the valve train so many times I have a pretty good system now. I ziptie the rocker arms together to keep them where they need to be on the shaft and then bent a bunch of old wire to hold the push rods in place. It works like a charm and makes the job really simple.

http://i.imgur.com/ETZGGCi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/To2Hd8c.jpg

I don't really know where to go from here. I have replaced and checked everything in the valve train at this point and the problem is still there. Plus now I have coolant leaking into the engine. I have had pretty bad luck with this van and the idea of cutting my losses and selling it may have to be an option. I have sunk a lot of time and money and I don't want to have to do that, but I don't have much time or money to throw at it anymore.

[timsrv]

I'm very sorry you're going through this. I know what a disappointment it must be. If you had this professionally rebuilt, then this should be on them...........all of it. I suspect the coolant in the oil is most likely due to a crappy aftermarket head gasket, but it could also be due to it overheating (I recall you saying earlier it was getting extremely hot). Other ways coolant and oil can mix is crack(s) in the head or casting flaws (if it's a new one). Another thing that can happen is cracks or pinholes in the block between the water jacket and the cylinder bore(s). That last one is not uncommon on some high performance engines, but I've never seen it on a 4y. The 4y is a heavy duty industrial quality engine so I don't think that's likely. Still, if there was a casting flaw, and the block was bored, it's possible a breach could have occurred.

Regardless, whatever the reason, none of your options are that great. With all these issues, it it were mine I'd probably pull the entire engine, disassemble, and go over everything with a fine tooth comb. If I had paid somebody to do the work and they wouldn't make it right, I would probably return the engine to them via a trebuchet (not advocating any violence here).

As for your push rods, when you posted above I was afraid the old ones were not off far enough to make a difference, but without measuring/checking all parts & geometry before making changes it's all random (it's better to measure twice and replace parts once). Tim

[JPERL]

Terrence

You mentioned that you were getting 130 PSI compression on each cylinder. 128 psi is the minimum. The spec range is 128-178 PSI I would expect a newly rebuilt engine to have at least 175 PSI per cylinder. I would think faulty head gasket is the cause of the low compression uniform in all cylinders and thus coolant getting into the oil

[terrence]

I'm very sorry you're going through this. I know what a disappointment it must be. If you had this professionally rebuilt, then this should be on them...........all of it. I suspect the coolant in the oil is most likely due to a crappy aftermarket head gasket, but it could also be due to it overheating (I recall you saying earlier it was getting extremely hot). Other ways coolant and oil can mix is crack(s) in the head or casting flaws (if it's a new one). Another thing that can happen is cracks or pinholes in the block between the water jacket and the cylinder bore(s). That last one is not uncommon on some high performance engines, but I've never seen it on a 4y. The 4y is a heavy duty industrial quality engine so I don't think that's likely. Still, if there was a casting flaw, and the block was bored, it's possible a breach could have occurred.

Regardless, whatever the reason, none of your options are that great. With all these issues, it it were mine I'd probably pull the entire engine, disassemble, and go over everything with a fine tooth comb. If I had paid somebody to do the work and they wouldn't make it right, I would probably return the engine to them via a trebuchet (not advocating any violence here).

As for your push rods, when you posted above I was afraid the old ones were not off far enough to make a difference, but without measuring/checking all parts & geometry before making changes it's all random (it's better to measure twice and replace parts once). Tim






You mentioned that you were getting 130 PSI compression on each cylinder. 128 psi is the minimum. The spec range is 128-178 PSI I would expect a newly rebuilt engine to have at least 175 PSI per cylinder. I would think faulty head gasket is the cause of the low compression uniform in all cylinders and thus coolant getting into the oil


That's my suspicion as well, so I pulled the cylinder head...

http://i.imgur.com/gHtWSBL.jpg


I don't see any immediate issues in the head gasket (other than it needs to be replaced now) but I also haven't checked the head for any cracks or warping. While I have everything apart again I am going to just bite the bullet and replace the rocker arms and shaft since everything else in the head is new. As well as there was some scoring on the shaft from oil starvation. I think I will pull the crank shaft and check to see if it's the correct one since the builder installed it when the motor was rebuilt.

One thing that really caught my attention when I pulled the head was that there is a lot of carbon build up on the pistons for a motor with only 600 miles on it. I think that it may be from the valves not opening all the way if the lifters weren't function correctly, but I could be wrong. I am also going to replace the radiator while I'm in there and put in an oem thermostat since it over heated the last time I drove it and it has me concerned.


http://i.imgur.com/G9kkxY4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/W8or94x.jpg

[terrence]

Well, it's been awhile but I finally ordered parts and tried my luck at this van again.

I ordered a Chinese made cylinder head off ebay from a reputable seller since it came with valves, valve springs and all new rocker arms and shaft installed. Everything looked good on it and overall I was pleased with the head.
The only issues I ran into were the holes for the exhaust/intake manifold studs were off just a hair and I had to enlarge the hole on the manifold to clear the studs. Also a hole for one of the fuel lines was missing but it's secure enough for it not to be a concern. I replaced all the gaskets and installed a Toyota head gasket this time around.



http://i.imgur.com/N3znLjS.jpg



After new filter, oil and coolant I fired it up. It hesitated but finally ran. And... nothing changed. Same noise coming from the motor, same sputtering at idle. Only thing that has changed is that the oil is clean of coolant. I let it run for 5 minutes and it never got quite or anything else. So I let it sit for a few days out of frustration. Went to start it again to check compression and now it won't run at all. Cranks all day but won't fire. Timing may be off but I'm pretty well fed up with this thing. The only thing I haven't replaced or checked in the valve train is the camshaft which the engine shop said they replaced. I guess all I can do is check timing, compression and after that I am out of ideas honestly. Such a bummer.

[terrence]

Flat camshaft? Check travel with a dial indicator. Also, make sure the rocker shaft is right side up.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1007-Noisy-Valve-Train-Troubleshooting


Bringing back this thought, but how would you go about measuring the travel exactly?

[timsrv]

It's a shame you had the head off and didn't do it then (easy). It can still be done, just a bit more complicated. I'd pull the rocker assy back off, then use a dial indicator on the push-rods while rotating the engine by hand (removing spark plugs will make rotation much easier). Cam specs are in the FSM. Tim

[terrence]

Could I not just do it on the rocker arms? The clearance should be the same since they are on the pushrods.

[timsrv]

You could, but there will be the variable of the lifters potentially compressing with the spring tension and the lack of oil pressure. It would be more accurate to take the load off the lifters before measuring.

[terrence]

Aww, that does make since. Alright I'll give that a go.

[spacecruisers]

Sucks having the van sit while you bang your head against the wall over and over like that - keep at it and it will all be worth it once its running again :thmbup:

[terrence]

The only specs I could find for the Cam are the lobe height. I can only measure the lobe lift.

Edit: Well, I found online the "OEM" specs for lobe lift on the parts description for a replacement camshaft. According to there specs OEM lobe lift is .239" on intake and exhaust. I am measuring from .228" to .236" on mine.

So if I am understanding this right, and OEM intake lobe height should be from 1.5205" to 1.5244"; or on average about 1.5224" and the minimum lobe height being 1.5063" (according to FSM).
Thus the difference in height being .0161"

Therefore if the lobe LIFT of an OEM spec'd cam is .239" and the lobe lift of my intake lobe is .228", then my cam is .011" shorter than OEM cam lobe lift.

[timsrv]

One in the same. Lobe height is the difference from the base to the tip............which is also lift (as measured from the lifter or the push-rod during engine rotation). Just remember that it takes 2 crankshaft revolutions to complete 1 camshaft revolution. Tim

[terrence]

I just zero the dial gauge and turn the crank over by hand until the dial hand stops increasing and goes back to zero and record where it peaked at.

Edit: I just measured them all. Out of all 8 lobes all but one is within tolerance. There are a few close to the minimum height allowance and one is .0002" away from it. But would that be enough to be causing my issue?

[timsrv]

No. With hydraulic lifters there's quite a bit of leeway. The cam lobes would need to be much worse to make that kind of noise. Camshafts are case hardened, meaning the hardening only penetrates down into the metal a few thousandths of an inch. Typically it takes years and many hundred thousand miles to wear through the hardened surface, but once that happens, the lobe(s) will go flat amazingly fast (like in ~ 50 miles). Since yours all measure so close, I would think the cam is fine.

About the only thing left is to check (if you haven't already) is play/looseness between the rockers and the push rods. In that video it sure sounds like valve train noise........but hard to zero in on it from a video. Tim

[terrence]

Huh, well if the lifters, pushrods and rocker arms are all brand new then where would the play be coming from? Also, thanks Tim for all your expertise and input. I really appreciate it and would have probably thrown the towel in awhile ago without it.

[Burntboot]

Sorry to hear about all your troubles Terrance, having been down similar roads, I remember all too well how frustrating it can be.

As I read thru your story it sounds like you have replaced everything at least once and sometimes twice and nothing has effected the sound.
Given all the issues you've had with the rebuild, it does sound as though they may have taken a short cut here and there (AM h/g...)

I did note that you said the engine shop replaced the camshaft already?
Is there any possibility they used either the wrong cam (3Y vs 4Y, don't know if theres a difference or not) or possibly put in a regrind??
Back in my speed shop days, there weren't a lot of performance cams available and those that were available were incredibly spendy.
We often had cams reground and while some worked out sweet as pie others had excessive valve noise.

Given how far you've gone on this, it might be worth finding out what they put in, even if just to eliminate one more possibility.
BB

[terrence]

4y and 3y cams share the same part number so I'm not worried about that. But being that the clearance is within tolerance I assume that it's not the problem? I had this thing rebuilt over a year ago so I'm not sure they even would know. On my receipt it just shows "cam" and the price for they charged me for it (around $200). I guess it wouldn't hurt to give them a call.

[terrence]

Is it normal for the CEL to not come on when you turn the key to start?

I'm trying to check for codes since the van won't start now but I can't even get the light to come on with just the key in the ignition. Nothing changes when I jump the check engine connector.

None of the fuses are blown, battery is full and all the grounds are good.

[originalkwyjibo]

Sounds like you may have a bad bulb or possibly a computer or wiring issue. The CEL should illuminate with the rest of the warning lights when the key is in the "run" position with the engine NOT running.

[terrence]

Bulb is fine, I guess I'll have to pull the ecu and see if it's getting power and whatnot.

[timsrv]

Hello Bala. 1st thing we need to do is make sure you are jumping the correct connector. On your van the "Check Engine Connector" is among a group of 3 dead-end terminals right behind the air flow meter. It's the medium sized one and the only one with 2 wires going to it. One wire is brown and the other is gray with a black stripe. Here are some pictures of the "check engine connector":

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0104.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0106.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0107.jpg


If nothing happens when you jump those wires (no check engine light and no change in idle), and the connector is in good shape, then this indicates a problem with the ECU or the Check Engine circuit somewhere in the harness. You could try swapping ECUs (if you happen to have an extra one laying around) or you could test the harness with an ohm meter at the ECU connectors. Since you probably don't have an extra ECU, then you'll need to gain access to your ECU (mounted in the D/S pillar behind where your seat belt retracts to), and unplug the harness. Now you can test for continuity between positions "T" and "E1" in the harness. Here is a map of the ECU connections:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0116.jpg


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0118.jpg

With the "check engine connector" empty there should be no continuity. With it jumped there should be. If the harness tests okay, then the problem is in your ECU. If you are not getting continuity between these 2 pins with the jumper in, then your problem is in the harness. If this is the case, your choice would be to find the fault and repair the harness or you could cut some insulation off these two wires at the ECU and touch them together. Touching them together at the ECU will have the same effect as jumping the engine connector, but would be somewhat of a "hack" thing to do. If you go this route, just be sure to tape them up when you're done.

If none of this works, tell me what you did, what you found, and we'll move on to a couple other things you can try. Tim

PS: When you changed the TPS did you adjust it per specs using an ohm meter?

And here's a link to a thread where a member repairs his own ECU:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?3617-Check-Engine-light-what-check-engine-light

[terrence]

Amazing, thank you.

[terrence]

Pulled ecu and check for continuity at those pins and it is getting continuity when the jumper is in the check engine connector. So I guess it's an ecu issue? I cracked open the ecu and there's no visible issues, the board actually looked really clean. No blown caps, corrosion, burn marks or loose contacts. I guess one evening I'll sit down and check every component. Not much else I can do at this point..


That post is really informative Tim, but unfortunately the 3y ecu looks nothing like the 4y:



http://i.imgur.com/4he3jhu.jpg

[terrence]

Anyone know anything about ceramic capacitors? I have 2 that look bad but I can't figure out what kind they are besides 1000pf capacitors. One has a B (or an 8) about the 102 and the other has a 6 above the 102. Searching around online hasn't turned up anything.


https://i.imgur.com/I14pYt6.jpg

[terrence]

Well, turns out the ECU had nothing to do with the starting issue. After going through the wiring and double checking fuses and relays the damn thing just worked all of the sudden. So something got knocked loose and it fired right up. Still sounded terrible though. So it dawned on my that maybe the exhaust manifold had gotten warped over time so once again I pulled everything apart and lo and behold it was warped pretty bad. Got it ground flat and put everything back together and of course little to no change. This van still runs like roflroflroflrofl and sounds like a tractor. I made a small video of it today idling and revving. When you give it gas the engine shakes and sounds terrible. I have no idea why this thing runs so poorly, why it sounds like this and what to even check next. I made a list of what has been done to date:

Engine overhaul,
rebuild cylinder head,
new pushrods
new lifters

Water in coolant...

new cylinder head, rockers, rocker arm shaft,
new spark plugs
machined exhaust manifold



https://youtu.be/rZICqX3rzlg

[timsrv]

Still sounds like excessive valve lash to me.......perhaps accompanied by a miss. A miss can be caused by low compression in a cylinder, no fuel in a cylinder, or no spark in a cylinder. I'd take care of the racket 1st. If indeed it is valve lash, then fixing this may even take care of the miss. No fuel to a cylinder could be an injector and no spark to a cylinder could be a defective plug wire and/or damaged plug. Did you ever measure lift and check for excessive lash? Have you checked compression? Tim

Edit: just wanted to say it's impossible to tell from a video........Everything I said is just a hunch/best guess. It's up to you to do the actual investigation and/or hire somebody. Tim

[terrence]

Still sounds like excessive valve lash to me.......perhaps accompanied by a miss. A miss can be caused by low compression in a cylinder, no fuel in a cylinder, or no spark in a cylinder. I'd take care of the racket 1st. If indeed it is valve lash, then fixing this may even take care of the miss. No fuel to a cylinder could be an injector and no spark to a cylinder could be a defective plug wire and/or damaged plug. Did you ever measure lift and check for excessive lash? Have you checked compression? Tim

Edit: just wanted to say it's impossible to tell from a video........Everything I said is just a hunch/best guess. It's up to you to do the actual investigation and/or hire somebody. Tim


I have looked everywhere in the FSM on valve train clearances and I can seem to find anything other than oil clearances. Beyond that its just how to slap it all back together. How would I go about check lash if I'm not sure what I am check for?

As for compression, I haven't checked it since I got it running again. When the rain lets up I'll check it.

[timsrv]

I'm sure I made at least one "long winded" post previously in this thread explaining how to measure/adjust valve geometry. Not sure how it could be off, but something is making a racket. No way to know for sure until you measure for lash (excess play) at each rocker/push-rod. If it is off, then the simplest solution would be to get custom push-rods (pretty sure I gave a link or 2 previously). FYI, this is not a common issue, but I've run into it before. It's usually caused by a machinist who wasn't properly trained and/or wasn't aware these valves are non-adjustable. If it's an aftermarket head, it's also possible there's dimensional errors in the height of the rocker arm mount bosses. Maybe the wrong lifters??? (who knows). Whatever the reason, if it's loose valves, then you'll need to have some custom work done. Over my career as a mechanic, I've only ran into this once. It was on a Ford 460 (also hydraulic lifers with non-adjustable rockers). In that case I was able to shim each rocker stud to obtain correct geometry.

That engine had individual rockers/fulcrums though. Since the 4y uses a common rocker shaft, the only way to adjust would be with custom length push rods. With some careful measurements, math, and some custom push-rods it could be dialed in. Of course that's assuming it's a valve lash issue causing all that racket. Tim

[Burntboot]

Terrance - Everything Tim says is spot on (no surprises there)

All I can add is my own experiences, I once had a customer with a 22R that had replaced his own VC gasket.
It kept leaking and he kept tightening. Brought it in with a sound just like yours.
Replace the A/M gasket and torqued to spec and all noises went away (valve train had been hitting the cover due to the over torqued, cork gasket)

Have you gone over it with a stethoscope? I would want to nail down just where the sound is emanating from, before doing anymore explorative surgery.

Way, way back, we had a customer that used a TV for drug store deliveries. That van led the hardest life of all.
At one point it bent a pushrod (don't remember the specifics of how or why) but as it was a weekend repair and had no parts available, we ended up swapping in a SBC pushrod, had to cut it down a wee bit and brazed the ball back on.
I never expected it to work for long but they put another 100K on it with no issue.
Pretty hack stuff and not something I would recommend, more just a food for thought type of thing.

Given how loud it is you should be able to at least track where the noise is coming from, that will be half the battle.

[terrence]

I'm sure I made at least one "long winded" post previously in this thread explaining how to measure/adjust valve geometry. Not sure how it could be off, but something is making a racket. No way to know for sure until you measure for lash (excess play) at each rocker/push-rod. If it is off, then the simplest solution would be to get custom push-rods (pretty sure I gave a link or 2 previously). FYI, this is not a common issue, but I've run into it before. It's usually caused by a machinist who wasn't properly trained and/or wasn't aware these valves are non-adjustable. If it's an aftermarket head, it's also possible there's dimensional errors in the height of the rocker arm mount bosses. Maybe the wrong lifters??? (who knows). Whatever the reason, if it's loose valves, then you'll need to have some custom work done. Over my career as a mechanic, I've only ran into this once. It was on a Ford 460 (also hydraulic lifers with non-adjustable rockers). In that case I was able to shim each rocker stud to obtain correct geometry.

That engine had individual rockers/fulcrums though. Since the 4y uses a common rocker shaft, the only way to adjust would be with custom length push rods. With some careful measurements, math, and some custom push-rods it could be dialed in. Of course that's assuming it's a valve lash issue causing all that racket. Tim

Tim, as always thank you for your advice. I am still not sure how I can check for lash on this thing other than seeing if a feeler gauge fits under the valve spring side of the rocker arm (since the pushrod sets inside of a recess in the rocker arm). You said these things are zero lash, which makes since, therefor there should be no clearance between the rocker arm and either the pushrod or valve spring? The lifters have measured and replaced the lifters (I actually have 2 different sets from different manufactures) and it made not difference.


Terrance - Everything Tim says is spot on (no surprises there)

All I can add is my own experiences, I once had a customer with a 22R that had replaced his own VC gasket.
It kept leaking and he kept tightening. Brought it in with a sound just like yours.
Replace the A/M gasket and torqued to spec and all noises went away (valve train had been hitting the cover due to the over torqued, cork gasket)

Have you gone over it with a stethoscope? I would want to nail down just where the sound is emanating from, before doing anymore explorative surgery.

Way, way back, we had a customer that used a TV for drug store deliveries. That van led the hardest life of all.
At one point it bent a pushrod (don't remember the specifics of how or why) but as it was a weekend repair and had no parts available, we ended up swapping in a SBC pushrod, had to cut it down a wee bit and brazed the ball back on.
I never expected it to work for long but they put another 100K on it with no issue.
Pretty hack stuff and not something I would recommend, more just a food for thought type of thing.

Given how loud it is you should be able to at least track where the noise is coming from, that will be half the battle.

The valve cover gasket caused an issue? I'm guessing something to do with crank case pressure? I can take my oil fill cap off and it doesn't make a bit of difference to the way my engine runs. I don't have a stethoscope but maybe I should invest in one..

[timsrv]

Tim, as always thank you for your advice. I am still not sure how I can check for lash on this thing other than seeing if a feeler gauge fits under the valve spring side of the rocker arm (since the pushrod sets inside of a recess in the rocker arm). You said these things are zero lash, which makes since, therefor there should be no clearance between the rocker arm and either the pushrod or valve spring? The lifters have measured and replaced the lifters (I actually have 2 different sets from different manufactures) and it made not difference.

If you don't have an adjustable magnetic mount and a dial indicator, you could measure lash between the rocker and the valve. However, this will only work if the rocker shaft (pivot point) is the exact center between the push-rod and valve stem. If it's off-center, it could still work, but you would need to measure how far off-center it is, then use math to determine lash on the push-rod side. If you have a suitable dial indicator and magnetic base, set it up so the business end of the indicator rests on the rocker arm (directly above the push-rod). With the lifter sitting on the base of the cam lobe, grab the rocker and rock it back and forth (hand pressure). The indicator will show how much slop (if any) is on the push-rod side.




The valve cover gasket caused an issue? I'm guessing something to do with crank case pressure? I can take my oil fill cap off and it doesn't make a bit of difference to the way my engine runs. I don't have a stethoscope but maybe I should invest in one..

I've seen what Burntboot was referring to as well. it was almost common on the 22R's with the rigid aluminum valve covers. When DIY/amateur mechanics over torque valve cover nuts it can cause an issue. Since the valve cover studs are also the rocker shaft studs, high torque on the cover can tug on the rocker shaft enough to create valve noise........but nothing like what you're experiencing. I'm not convinced the 4y stamped steel cover could transmit that much force without 1st bending/collapsing. Tim

[terrence]

Well, good new is that all cylinders have the same compression psi. Bad news it's still only 120psi. There was some oil on the #1 spark plug tho.

I pulled the valve cover and if I am understanding you right Tim, I am measuring the push rod when it's as high as it can go (on the cam lobe)? If that's the case then there is no movement in the rocker arm at all. When the cam is at its lowest point, that's a completely different story. I don't know if I should be able to push down on the lifters but the push rod can be moved down 1/4 to 1/2".

[timsrv]

120 psi isn't bad, the important thing is they're all the same. Valve lash is measured when the cam lobe is at it's base (and the valve is closed). Your push rods will be their lowest (loosest) when the cam lobes are at their bases. I personally like to rotate the engine to position the particular lobe (for the valve I'm measuring) at it's very base, then repeat X 8 (but that can be a little time consuming and not completely necessary). If you put the engine on TDC, you can measure the lash of 1/2 the valves (the loose ones). Then rotate the crank 360º and measure the other half. Tim

[Burntboot]

Terrance - Hydraulic lifters shouldn't have any play when the pushrod is at its lowest point of travel.
When you say you can push down the pushrod (1/4-1/2in), is there resistance or is it sloppy?
Neither one is right but slop is excessive play whereas squishy resistance is a bad lifter.

I've only done a couple of lifter replacements and that was a long time ago.
We used to pump them up in a can of oil till hard, prior to installing and I remember them being a b**** to do.
I wouldn't think you'd be able to get enough purchase to compress a good lifter, when its installed and pumped up.

[timsrv]

To expand on what BB said, once lifters are "pumped up" (interior filled with oil), due to the check valve inside they mimic solid lifters (oil has nowhere to go unless more oil is being pumped in). On engines with non-adjustable valves (like ours), it's not a good idea to manually "pump them up" before engine assembly. Other than external lubrication, I always installed them dry, as they will find the correct adjustment spot faster with less stress on the valve train. If you manually pump them up before installation, the valves can be over extended (at least initially) and that can make them fail to seal and/or can even result in a burnt/warped valve. In some extreme situations it's conceivable they could even contact pistons (causing extreme damage). I don't think that's what's going on here, I just felt the need to explain why they should not be pre-pumped.

If you position the engine so that any given lifter is on the base of it's cam lobe, there should be no lash (play) between the rocker arm and the valve stem. If there's enough lash to put a feeler gauge between the rocker and the valve, and the lifter is fully extended, then there's a problem. If you find excessive lash, use a flashlight to look down at the lifter while you work the rocker by hand to make sure the play is not internal to that lifter. If the push-rod is loose, and the inside of the lifter is fully extended, then you will need custom push-rods. Tim

[Burntboot]

Tim - Thanks for the education on lifters. My experiences are over 30 yrs out of date and back then I tended to do as instructed.
Always nice to learn proper ways, even if a "little" late.

This whole thing doesn't make any sense, it would seem to be that everything measures within spec, everything that should be a problem has been replaced and yet the noise still persists. After rereading the entire saga, trying to make sense of just what the heck is going on, I find myself coming back to post #22 and #35

"Got it fired up finally. Ran like crap making an awful noise from the head. Sounded like a generator was running under the seat. Limped it home about 15 miles and let it sit over night. Fired it up the next morning and it ran as smooth and quite as could be. No idea what happened but it hasn't made noises in the last 40 miles I've put on it. Going to order an oil pressure and water temperature gauges just to keep an eye on things but, fingers crossed its good to go."

"Lifters came out easy. I got 8 new Meller lifters from autozone and put them in today. The toyota van fsm said to soak them in diesel fuel before installation but I just primed them in a cup of oil before hand."

My first thought was they installed a reground cam and if it wasn't re-hardened, that might explain the 40 miles of quietude but if that were the case, the lift would be way out of spec (wiped out lobes).
Then I decided that it must be those A/M lifters causing an issue, but the issue was present before installing them so that would indicate that the lifters were never a part of the problem, as the likelihood of 2 different sets causing the exact same issue is longer odds than winning the lottery.

I know the vid sure sounds like valve train noise but is there any chance the noise is coming from elsewhere?? did you verify source(s) with a stethoscope?
Maybe timing chain slapping the case or even the distributor not properly seated? Is there lots of oil at the rockers when you pull the Valve Cover?
Something has to be seriously messed up to cause that much noise.

I once had a bad bottom end knock going on at #4, thought for sure I was in for a new bottom end.
Then the clutch started slipping and as I needed the ride but didn't have time for engine R&R, I tossed in a fresh disc & PP.
I did find springs in the bottom of bell housing on disassembly, and once all back together, my "rod" knock disappeared too.
Shocked the heck out of me, but just goes to show, sometimes, noises can travel and send one down the wrong rabbit hole.

[Burntboot]

And just for moment I wanted to question that head from China, maybe not machined to exactly the correct height or ???
Then again, IIRC, noise was present prior to head replacement.

Out of curiosity, how did it run before the engine was rebuilt?

Sorry, just ran out of straws to grasp at.

[timsrv]

Sorry, just ran out of straws to grasp at.

And that's where I am. I get interested in things like this and can usually get to the bottom of these issues pretty quick. Unfortunately It's not here for me to play with, so all I can do is speculate. And like you said, sounds can transmit from other locations, so I don't have a lot of faith in my gut. But based on that noise in the video, it's the only thing that can think of. Bottom line? Somebody needs to start ruling things out. Checking lash isn't all that difficult, so I'd recommend checking that 1st (because it sure sounds like valve train noise to me).

Speaking of hard to diagnose sounds, I've had similar experiences. I was chasing a noise once that I was sure had to be a wrist pin, but ended up being a defect inside the alternator. I figured that out only after running it without belts. Another time I found a loose torque converter that was rattling and it sounded like a rod knock. At this point it all boils down to process of elimination. Check the easy stuff 1st and work your way down to the more difficult things. Tim

PS: I could be wrong on some points I made regarding lifters, but this is the way I understand things. Regarding pre-pumping, I used to always pre-pump SB Chev lifters as those rockers are adjustable. We'd start the engine with all the valves a little loose, back off the rocker nut until it made a racket, slowly tighten just until the racket stopped, then tighten an additional 3/4 turn. This would put the piston part of the lifter near the middle of it's range.

[terrence]

Burnboot, this issue has been here since the motor was installed after the rebuild.

I also noticed the cylinder closest to the front of the van had some oil on it, may explain my misfire. I don't think the spark plug tube rings ever get replaced so I ordered a set to see if that fixes it.

Tim, its almost as if the lifters are not getting "pumped up". When they are at the base of the came they are all squishy feeling. If I am reading your response right then that shouldn't happen? Here is a video I took when I was first delving into this issue last year. It's like the lifters aren't getting oil at all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=FLhAgjeWyK0

[timsrv]

Okay, so that's really weird. I don't recall seeing that video before so I went back and sure enough there it was on page 2 (somehow I missed it before now) :dizzy:.

I couldn't recall seeing lifter pistons so easily compressed so I grabbed some new ones and tried to compress them. The Federal Mogul brand I have are rock solid and will not compress unless extreme pressure is applied. I also have some new Engine Tech brand so I checked those and found they are easy to push and will spring right back (consistent with your video). So, my conclusion is lifters vary (a lot) from brand to brand. That being said I'd have to assume the play you're experiencing is normal for that brand (at least when new & dry -but- once they are full of oil they should be much more solid). If the van was previously running, even if you are able to manually compress, oil should be coming out the rocker arm (at least the 1st couple times you push after engine shut-off).

So this makes me think you may be correct suspecting an oiling problem........perhaps a blocked oil passage somewhere??? If you can't verify oil comes out when manually compressing, then I'd start the engine with the valve cover off. If the lifters are getting oil your rockers will spray oil like crazy (like enough to empty your engine of oil in minutes). So, before you do that, rig up some sort of shield and take precautions to minimize the mess. When you start the engine oil should start spraying out of all the rockers almost immediately. It will likely be extremely messy, so only run it long enough to verify oil comes out of all rockers.........especially the ones that were easy to push. If there are any that don't spray oil, then I'm thinking it's an oil starvation issue.

I'm assuming the engine has oil pressure and you've previously verified that............right? If not check that 1st. Tim

[originalkwyjibo]

I seriously think it spun a cam bearing. I mentioned this a while back after watching this video the first time it was posted. My dad bought a used Ford Bronco II with a solid lifter 2.8 V6 that had valve noise due to heavily warn lash adjusters. The dealer said they would pay to have them replaced. We replaced the adjusters at the shop I worked at as a teenager only to have them wear again pretty quickly. After running it with a valve cover off it was quickly obvious that oil was not flowing to those valves and after consulting a lubrication diagram figured out that those valves were all connected to the same cam bearing. Oil was getting to the cam but the oil hole in the bearing wasn't aligned with the oil gallery in the block cutting off the flow to some of the valves. I would definitely agree with Tim on starting it with the valve cover off but I would think you should be able to produce enough pressure to check this flow just by cranking it with the ignition disabled. Maybe a little less messy that way.

[originalkwyjibo]

I just reread the post just after you got it home and the sound miraculously went away but then came back. Maybe there is some debris clogging the oil gallery that moved at some point. If you confirm no oil flow to those lifters, maybe you could remove them and crank the engine to pump oil through and try to flush it out while the lifter isn't in the bore covering the oil port.

[timsrv]

If you verify there's oil pressure, but no flow through some (or all) of the lifters/rockers, let me know and I'll dig a 4y block out (I have a bare 4y block buried in storage) and I'll map the path oil flows for you. Armed with this information you'll know where to look. I agree with Original that something like a spun or misaligned cam bearing could be to blame. Could also be a piece of debris stuck in a passage hole somewhere.........Tim

[MyToy]

Wow, what a story. Terrence has really done such a great job documenting all of this not to even mention his persistence, Kudos to you for sure. With my recently purchased 86LE having a knocking sound when cold forced me to read this entire thread. Clearly not a chatter noise like Terrence but more of a nasty knock but goes away after she warms up. 268K on the engine.

I guess my question would be, after reading this entire thread, does anyone think that maybe purchasing a new engine would have had better results? I found a couple of fork lift engine firms here that sell 4Y's long block. If they are the same engine as ours maybe?????

https://store.intellaliftparts.com/p/11030-23340/toyota-forklift-engine-4y-11030-23340.html
and here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4Y-NEW-Forklift-engine-Fits-all-forklifts-with-a-4Y-Motor-Long-Block-/252448536083?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

Just thinking out loud. Man, I am tired for Terrence just reading all of this. This guy has stamina. Need a job???:wnk: How I would love to hire guys like you.

[Burntboot]

MT - Fork lift engines are the same (4Y) but the internals are different. That and fork lift parts are more expensive.
There are no "new" engines. Toyota hasn't had a long block in stock for over 10yrs
The only options out there are rebuilt engines. Like all things, a rebuild is only as good as the sourced parts and labour that goes into it.
If you sell rebuilt engines for a living, would you be installing the best parts money can buy or the cheapest part the will work?
Unless you have someone you trust to do the rebuild, your best best is to do it yourself.

[Burntboot]

Terrance - any updates on this issue? would love to hear you finally solved it.

[MyToy]

Thanks Burntboot:

Now that I did not know about fork lift engines having different inners.

Would you have any suggestions as to who you would recommend for a rebuilt 4Y?

[terrence]

Problem still persists. Last time I went to work on it the ECU wasn't getting power again. One of the relays comes loose every now and then and just needs to be fiddle with. So I haven't started the van to see if oil is pumping in the head yet. I picked up a 98' dodge mini van for dirt cheap and have been working on it in the mean time. I kinda sunk a bit when I transferred the insurance over to it from the Toyota van. It has been really cold in around here lately and I am just waiting for a warmer day to mess with it again. It is looking like I am going to have to pull the cam to inspect bearings though, so I have just been putting it off.

[MyToy]

My my my, what a pity. Chapel Hill huh, hmmmmm. Man if I had some spare time I would fly up to check this out with you. But even here in Florida it is so cold I am not sure the Lycoming engine in the plane would even turn with oil like molasses anyway.

So the beat goes on in search for best place for rebuilt 4Y engines. I did find these guys last night. Would like to here from Burntboot on this.

http://remanns.com

As for my knock exhausted my efforts to find any more on this on TVT. I will start a new post on this if anyone has any input.

Stay warm everyone!

[Burntboot]

MT - A heavy knock when cold that disappears as it warm is usually caused by piston slap.
Piston slap can occur for a very long time with no apparent repercussions, then again it can also break piston skirts when really bad.
Before declaring it terminal it wouldn't hurt to do an engine flush, it may not help at all but its worth trying as it is one of the cheapest things once can do.
Also pay attention to the oil and filter your using, synthetic is great stuff but on an old engine with noises I would use a quality Dino oil.
As crazy as it sounds, I also use OEM filters, for the very reason that I have had issues with AM stuff even the supposedly high end stuff.

On my Suzuki, I picked up some A/M filters dirt cheap (good name, good rep)
First one went on and I immediately had issues with the timing chain tensioners bleeding down.
I swapped out the filter for OEM and all the noises went away and then I threw out the 3 other cheapie's.
Sometimes I have to relearn lessons, but is usually sticks the 3rd or 4th time around :)

As far as reman places, I have no idea.
Murphy was a close relative and I seem to have inherited his genes.
Every time I get a remained part I have issues, so I have gotten into the habit of doing everything myself or going new.

As far as what parts to use, I am a fan of factory stuff as it is brainless (right stuff that fits everytime)
If availability/cost is a factor then research Tim's blog where he details a 4Y rebuild, the parts he used and the problems he ran into.
Sadly, there is no "easy" solution.

If you are going to go with a rebuilder, ask around and talk to everyone you know (in person, preferably) and find out their experiences.
And if you have no friends to ask, try going where the gear heads get together for coffee.
Most people will be more than willing to share experiences, once you get some recommendations, go to those shops, meet the owners/staff and get a feel for them.
If you want to spend serious coin and the owner isn't willing to give a shop tour, thats a red flag for me.
Insurance regulations are always cited, but a shop that does good work and is proud of their product is going to be happy to show you why your money is best spent at their establishment.
Don't be intimidated but do be friendly. And when you do find the right shop, treat them well.
What I mean is, if your dropping by to check on progress, take enough coffee for the staff, maybe some donuts or cookies too.
You will be amazed at the dividends those little courtesies can provide.

Generally speaking an engine is an engine and a competent rebuilder will be able to work on anything.
Most of the problems occur when time is the driving factor, thats why doing it yourself can yield a better end product.
By doing it yourself you will take the time to do everything right even if it means wasting an hour or 2, the rebuilder won't.
I have seen newly rebuilt engines with broken rings, rings misaligned, wrong gaskets, ... the list is endless.
He's not going to chase threads, use never seize where appropriate, replace incidentals while its easy (like that little hose under the intake...)
Thats not saying you can't get a quality rebuild, I just have no idea where to find one.

The only suggestion I can make is don't price shop your rebuild.
If the going rate is $3000 and you find one for $2000 you gotta ask yourself where they are saving the money.
They only care that it lasts as long as the warranty and even if there is a problem, they will start with blaming the installer, thats just the way it goes.
Saving a thou is useless if you end up with more problems than you started with.
And you don't want something that will last for 1-2 yrs, you're likely wanting something that will last another 300K

All these potential issues are why many people go with JDM engines, they are a good option if you can find one, but they are getting harder to find.
Importers are in business, they bring in what sells and there isn't a lot of demand for 4Y's any more.
BB

[Burntboot]

And the other thing to consider about a cold engine knock, don't overlook the possibility of a cracked exhaust manifold.
The don't always exhibit as an exhaust leak, sometimes they will present as a loud knock that goes away as it warms (manifold expands and crack closes)
It is NOT an uncommon problem on TV's, so very much worth investigating.
BB

[MyToy]

Thanks BB:


This van sat in a barn for 20 years. The previous owner is pretty sharp. Before storage he drained all the gas out, ran the system dry then with a tad of lubricant. He topped the oil, meat ball, and transmission. Then every 3 to 4 months he would move the van back and forth about 50 feet to keep thinks wet. Cranked motor with starter.
Fuel pump, filter, starter, alternator, water pump, and radiator replaced after taking it out of moth balls.

When he took it out she started right up with no issues. Not sure if the knock was there before or when he took it out. I can ask. We have a running dialogue as I make the van ready for every day use.

He had a head gasket failure about 120K ago so in doing that he also replaced the rings and bearings.

He was a fanatic about maintenance. So much so that he installed a Hobbs meter so he could track time and milage for Oil changes.

He also used special hydraulic fluids for all the brakes similar to 5150 we use in airplane.

I think the van needs motor mounts now since it vibrates a lot when kicked into reverse when cold. He told me they were original.

As for rebuilding, I don't have the luxury of time to do it. I would love to but owning 3 corporations does not give that space.

I bought two of these when they were new in 1986 and 1988. They were both the best driving machine I ever had and I have had a bunch. But the vans were part of my company and when I sold they went with it. So I know the potential of the vehicle and that is why I want to get it back.

I don't have a problem sinking some dollars into a good rebuild. I thought I was doing better thinking that I could buy new from the fork lift guys but you put an end to that wish.

I am not sure if flushing would help since the past owner was so annal. He always used Castrol 10/30 all these years and replaced it all again before we shipped it to Florida.

So I thought of going Mobil 1 but you say I should look at Dino. What is that? Sorry, not in my word lib yet.

Thanks so much for you insight. I will no doubt replaced the motor one day for sure. I budgeted for that. Just reading Terrance's thread made me realize I should study this a great deal.

Thank you so much
MyToy

[Burntboot]

Given that info, I think you need to diagnose your actual problem before you jump to a conclusion about the engine's integrity.

A stethoscope is an indispensable and cheap tool for diagnosing noises.
Once you figure out where the noise is the loudest, you can formulate an appropriate attack plan.

Here's hoping its just the exhaust manifold, you'd be amazed at how much they can sound like an internal engine knock.
BB

[oli larsen]

I'd be suspecting the rebuilder used tones of cheap hylomar or other instant gasket in the place of factory seals. I've taken a fair few engines apart after "rebuilds" and found tonnes of sealant clogging up oil ways and filters. have you pulled the sump and found any evidence of this? it would explain the huge valve clearance. even with an incorrect cam profile, pushrod length or bent rocker you should still have an acceptable clearance if the lifters are getting oil pressure. it just will result in less lift! I can only think it's an oil pressure issue at the lifters.

[MyToy]

Thanks BB

I will try to get some further diagnostics complete before she goes into the paint shop for her face lift this week.

Along with the stethoscope I will also use Tim's tool of pulling the spark plugs to see if one cylinder responds to that.

As for the exhaust manifold leak, I am not sure except to just pull it, although I may be able to hear it with the stethoscope.
My IA has one and has a lot of experience with it. I will give him a call today and ask him. Will keep you posted.

MT

[MyToy]

BB:

One more thing, you did not respond to my question on what was Dino. Can you educate me on that?

MT

[PNW vanwagon]

dino: slang for non-synthetic motor oil - regular old plain motor oil
btw: if you google "what is dino motor oil?" you get the answer right away

been real interesting reading this thread - lots of knowledgable insight for engine noise.

[MyToy]

OMG regular motor oil?????

Yea know on the aviation side of the equation things are much more precise due to the FAA having their nose into everything.
In fact, I cannot even change one screw in the entire aircraft without a field approval. So when we speak TV's I tend to come down to earth (no pun intended) a bit.
Thanks I will stay away from Mobil 1 then.

Thanks!

MT

[Sharn]

Hello all and Hi Terrance..
I am very new to this forum though over the past few months i have been read many articles and benefited from the wealth of knowledge here whilst trying to understand better the two vans i now own - especially after having various common problems over the time i've owned them.
Im writing because ive been reading this thread -and though i have only a very basic understanding of these vehicles - i thought id offer an experience ive just recently been through with my van;
Basically the Head gasket went on my 88 Space cruiser which was running sweetly beforehand though it was losing water somewhere (which i now realise was probably the early signs of the head gasket going) and i was foolishly careless and forgot to top the coolant up before a long journey and it cooked.
But obviously this is not the usefull part with regards to this tapping/ticking/knocking problem happening here..

So.. i had the head gasket replaced by a highly recommended work shop and it was what was found after doing this that i thought might be of interest -
Basically i got the van back and it was not the same sweet - purring engine as i had before and it was now idling badly - stuttering and struggling and MUCH louder than i remembered with a tapping/ sound a bit like what i heard in your video.
I took the van back to the garage and said something wasnt right and it was not like this before ( in all fairness they couldnt have known how sweet it was before i suppose) So they investigated further and diagnosed a warped/corroded/ damaged 'Inlet manifold' i believe it was?? (sorry if that's wrong) This is where i must apologise that i dont exactly know what was the problem nor can i describe it visually because i never even saw it.. but all i know is it fixed the problem completely and now the van purrs like a kitten and is a real joy to behold - thank GOD .. it all cost me £1500 all together!
So as i understand what was explained to me was this-- Theres two parts attached together which when doing the head gasket they only had to take off as one single piece - (and so didnt diagnose this problem at first he said) I think im right in saying it was the inlet manifold??
Which the exhaust manifold attatches to?? ( i think?)
Anyway.. i think it was that and we had to order a brand new one and the part alone cost around £260 brand new. It was the cause of both the bad idling and the loud noise and the ticking/tapping sound ( as someone mentioned a cracked exhaust manifold?) But im pretty sure this wasnt the exhaust manifold on mine.. (though they told me that one of the Exhaust manifold bolts had sheared off and still is missing i believe) But whatever this thing they replaced totally cured everything and you wouldnt believe how different it is now to how it came out after the head gasket. I wish i knew more so i could speak more accurately about it. But i think it was the 'Inlet manifold'??
Does that sound possible to anyone?
Sorry if this is nonsense
And i hope you find the cure.
All the best
Regards,

[MyToy]

Interesting story Sharn:

After digesting what BB and Kyle had to say and knowing I must do some better diagnostics for the knock issue I decided to contact the owner I purchased the van from. Since he did the previous work on the engine I thought he may be able to shed some light on all of this. This is what he came back with:

"The piston rings were std size installed on the original pistons. No boring of the cylinders was done. I did lightly hone to the cylinders to allow for break in of chrom moly rings. There was no cylinder ridges when I took out the pistons other than a light carbon build up.With the re-ring job I also replaced the rod bearings with again std size. I remember plastic gaging the rod bearings and they were within std size. The main bearings do need replacement since the oil pressure drops during idle. Low oil pressure during idle and normal pressure above 1500rpm is a classic symptom of a large gap in the bearing area. This is a push rod engine so the cam is in the block, I did not look at the camshaft to see what wear occurred there but there is no valve adjustment for the lifters and they don't make noise so the cam and cam bearings are probably alright. "

What I find interesting is the oil pressure comment. I was not aware of this pressure difference nor was I aware of any main bearing problems. Like I said, once she is warm the knocking goes away. He also mentioned in an earlier email that he believed the problem was piston slap for what that is worth.

We will do what BB suggested this weekend with the stethoscope to see if we can locate the knock.

If anyone wants to comment on this pressure information, please do. Since most of our vans are getting up there in miles this additional information may be helpful.

Again, thanks to all of you.

[Burntboot]

Mt - A lot of what was said rings true till you get to that last comment about oil pressure.

Toyota's of this era are known to be bullet proof, there are no "bottom end issues".
While a drop in oil pressure at idle CAN be an indication of loose bearings, that would only apply if using a true mechanical gauge and reading actual oil pressure.
But if we are talking about low oil pressure as per the dash gauge then it becomes a whole different ball of ear wax.
This is a classic symptom of the sender, they get tired over time and consistently read low at idle, the cure is to replace the sender or ignore pressure at idle.

Back in th '80's we had a blow up party on a RWD corolla, thing was trashed from bumper to bumper and we felt it a fitting end.
We did everything to that poor little motor, drained the oil , drained the coolant best we could do was get it to seize but the damned thing would always restart after cooling down. We did manage to grenade it, but it took an entire can of ether, at full throttle!

Back in the mid '90's Jag had so many customers complain about the (oil pressure) issue they brought out a "fix" which consisted of a new sender and in-line resistor.
Essentially they turned it into an idiot light that displayed as the gauge at 1/2 way.
Stupid in my mind, but the customer is always right, even when they're wrong.

That said, I suspect you are overthinking the issue, and I should know, as I always overthink everything :)
Cheers
BB

[MyToy]

BB:

When he says main bearings is he talking about the bearings on the connecting rod to the crank shaft or is he talking about the bearings that hold the crank shaft in the block?

I may just go put a real good oil pressure gauge on it and see what the pressure differential is with that. Great idea.

MT

[Burntboot]

Main bearings would indeed be crank to block, sounds like he already replaced rod bearings (rod to crank).
The upper end of the rod has a press fit pin that retains the piston.

[MyToy]

Thanks BB, so the ones in the piston are wrist pins right? At least that is what they call it in the airplane side.

Let's hope I can find the noise on top.

[MyToy]

BB:

Just an update. We did verify the knock is piston slap. It was not any of the other symptoms you suggested.
So I did what you said and went through a long interview process with several people here in Daytona Beach that do engine work. Tons to pick from here at Dayton of course. Man you were so right. Some of these places I would not be able to tell you what was the floor and what was the bench. However others were like hospital environments. I found the biggest input was the owner and their response to all of my questions. I found one that clearly out performed all others. Instead of telling me to junk the TV, he did a very intensive look through to see just what the project would involve. He replaces about 200 engines a year so has some pretty good background on the art.

He also told me that his local machine shop that works with him does a great job but is slow and costly. Typically about $2500. Then there is rest of the transplant.
He recommended a place that sells Remanufactured engines he has used before. I asked him about their work and parts quality and told me that he has not taken them apart but the ones that he has installed went well with no problems, came with a 5 year or unlimited mile guarantee . He believed with this track record and the guarantee it was worth checking it out. So I will reach out to them for pricing.

So it looks like we will move on engine replacement along with all the other goodies at the same time.

Thanks for the help and will keep you posted.

MT

[terrence]

Long time, no see. So I finally dug out the screw driver bit I dropped in the engine earlier this year. Toyota had no intention of you taking the oil pan off when the engine is installed apparently. After 1.5 hours trying to find the bit it was hidden in a bunch of black gunk that I have no idea where came from. This engine only has 500 miles on it and I had changed it after I did the head gasket. I checked the oil pump and it's doing its job so next step is to follow the oil and see why it's not getting to the top end. And I just realized I don't have a radiator fan shroud, might explain why it was over heating..

https://i.imgur.com/QyqBzLn.jpg

[timsrv]

Terrence,

After giving it some thought, I agree with the previous poster who suggested your cam bearings may be installed incorrectly. When those are pressed into the block, it's critical the oil holes line up with the holes in the block. If they are not lined up, the result would be no oil to the top end. I have personally never seen this done (so didn't think of that initially), but it makes the most sense to me. Unfortunately this will not be easy to remedy and will likely require the engine be removed. Good luck. Tim

[terrence]

Terrence,

After giving it some thought, I agree with the previous poster who suggested your cam bearings may be installed incorrectly. When those are pressed into the block, it's critical the oil holes line up with the holes in the block. If they are not lined up, the result would be no oil to the top end. I have personally never seen this done (so didn't think of that initially), but it makes the most sense to me. Unfortunately this will not be easy to remedy and will likely require the engine be removed. Good luck. Tim

How would you inspect that, aside from just pulling the thing apart?

[timsrv]

How would you inspect that, aside from just pulling the thing apart?

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/89%20cargo%20van%204yec%20rebuild/IMG_1535.jpg

The big hole on the left is where your cam goes. If you look close you can see the oil hole in the bearing (there's another hole in the block that lines up with that). When a block gets hot-tanked, the cam bearings and soft plugs are removed. Afterwards new cam bearings and soft plugs are installed. They install the first few from the front and the last couple from the back, then they install a soft plug in back of the engine that blocks future access. With the engine is installed your transmission would be blocking access to that rear plug and the rear cam bearings.

After further thought, I don't think this would explain your issue because those holes only supply oil to the cam bearings. The top end gets it's oil from the lifters. The lifter bores also have oil holes. These line up with the smaller diameter of the lifter, then enter the lifter through holes in that smaller diameter section. After that the oil passes through the lifters, goes up-through the push-rods and sprays out through the holes in the rockers. Sorry about the false alarm, just sort of thinking out loud. I'm really hoping you get this figured out. You've certainly put enough blood sweat and tears into this project. Tim

[terrence]

Tim


Thanks for the input Tim; do the lifters get their supply through a channel in the block?

[timsrv]

Yes, the lifter bores in the block all have oil holes. These line up with the smaller diameter section in the middle of each lifter. Each lifter has an oil hole in the side of this smaller diameter section. After that the oil passes through the lifters it goes up-through the push-rods and sprays out through the holes in the rockers.

[Burntboot]

Terrance - I am not sure how you have managed to keep your sanity this long, 2.5yrs without resolution is maddening.
I am not sure I would have had the tenacity to stay with it this long.

Looking at that puddle in that oil pan looks vaguely familiar.
It's been bugging me all day but from reading your entire thread, twice, it finally twigged.

There are a couple of things that stand out from the story, to recap:

Post #1 "Well, I have decided that the strange engine noises within the motor finally warrant a tear down"
Post #5 "The entire lower and upper intake manifolds were covered in this black sludge"
Post#48 "One thing that really caught my attention when I pulled the head was that there is a lot of carbon build up on the pistons for a motor with only 600 miles on it."
Post #111 "After 1.5 hours trying to find the bit it was hidden in a bunch of black gunk that I have no idea where came from. This engine only has 500 miles on it and I had changed it after I did the head gasket."

But I keep landing on Post #7.
"That residue looks suspiciously like the result of a leaky cold start injector. Tim"

I cannot find any reference of you having verified the status of the cold-start injector.

Fuel contaminated oil will wash out the compression rings (making for low compression), it can cause excessive wear (old camshaft?) it can cause lifters to "bleed down" when sitting (as the viscosity is so low it just runs out of the lifters), sludge build up, poor running, misfires, stumbles, hard starts and overheating are all potential complications.
Best of all, in a fairly tight engine, oil pressure can appear to be within spec!

I think it might be worthwhile taking a look at the fuel system and see if there is a potential problem lurking there.
If nothing else, it will give you a break from tearing apart the valve train :)

[terrence]

I'll consider anything at this point. Unfortunately we completely missed fall here in the South East and its been 40* and raining all week so I haven't had a chance to tinker with it. But thanks for the input.

[terrence]

I went ahead and pulled a lifter and spun the oil pump and, well as you can see nothing happens. I am assuming oil should be coming up through this hole?

I shot this while turning the oil pump with my drill:

https://i.imgur.com/tkBtocU.gifvhttps://i.imgur.com/tkBtocU.gifv

[timsrv]

I've never tried it like that before (never had a need too), but assuming the pump intake is submerged in oil AND there's pressure to other parts of the engine, then yes, there should be oil squirting sideways into that lifter hole. Tim

[terrence]

I've never tried it like that before (never had a need too), but assuming the pump intake is submerged in oil AND there's pressure to other parts of the engine, then yes, there should be oil squirting sideways into that lifter hole. Tim

Hmm, I guess I'll have to charge the battery so I can read oil pressure while I run the pump. I know it's got oil in the pan, I just filled it.

[timsrv]

If the pump is doing it's job, it will take some torque to turn it. If not, it will spin easily...........is your drill working hard?

[terrence]

If the pump is doing it's job, it will take some torque to turn it. If not, it will spin easily...........is your drill working hard?

I started the drill with the clutch on low and worked it up until it stopped stalling it out. It spins it without stalling at about 12 out of 15 on the clutch dial... whatever that means.

I can see oil moving down the hole where the distributor came from, if I spin the pump fast enough it almost comes up out of the hole. Would the fact that the distributor is not in prevent the oil from getting where it needs to go?

[timsrv]

If I had an engine in a state to easily duplicate what you're trying, I'd go out and perform the same test, then report back. Unfortunately I don't, so anything I say is speculation......So here's my speculation: Based on what you said, I believe you're building pressure AND I would expect to see oil spraying out the side of that lifter bore. FYI, the problem you're experiencing is NOT common so I have no actual experience troubleshooting. Since there is no oil coming out the lifter bore, I suspect there could be a blocked oil passage somewhere in your system. Another possibility could be an open or unrestricted passage that should be closed or restricted. Since fluid flows the path of least resistance, it might be bypassing the lifter bore holes and just dumping back into the pan through another path less restricted. I would also remove and take a close look at the oil filter housing. There is a high pressure bypass valve with a spring inside there. I would inspect to make sure it's assembled correctly.

If the engine were out and stripped down to the bare block it would be much easier to verify the oil passages. If that were the case you could blow compressed air through all the oil holes to confirm they are clear......hopefully it doesn't come to that. Good luck. Tim

[terrence]

Just to clerify before I pull the trigger and tear this stupid thing apart again, the lifters are fed from the rockers to the pushrods to the lifters? Not that it would change anything but just curious.

[originalkwyjibo]

No. Other way around.
I have been trying to find an oil flow chart for the 4Y since you started posting about this again with no luck. Looking at Tim's pick I'm noticing what looks like an oil gallery plug which I circled in red. It may be that the oil flow is to the camshaft bearing and then to this gallery which would flow to all lifters. Your pic of the rear of the engine in post #9 appears to have a plug in the same location. They both appear to be in line with the lifter bores. I suspect on one of the cam bearings oil is pumped to the cam through the hole I circled in yellow and then carried around the cam journal to the lifter oil gallery. I strongly believe after watching your last video that you either have a significant blockage in this oil gallery or are missing the oil gallery plug which would likely allow the oil intended for the lifters and then on to the pushrods and rockers to flow into the timing chain case and back to the pan.

[Burntboot]

When I get frustrated over things like this, I often find that I can get a bit of tunnel vision.
I can convince myself that I know exactly where problem lies and proceed to overlook all other possibilities.
I have learned to go for a walk, sometimes a very long one, until I can wrap my head around things better.
I would hate to see you pull the motor apart, yet again, only to find nothing conclusive.

I am with Tim on this one :
"I would also remove and take a close look at the oil filter housing. There is a high pressure bypass valve with a spring inside there. I would inspect to make sure it's assembled correctly."
If that all checks out okay then I would be dropping the pan, pulling the pump and checking the relief valve in the pump.

The only definitive test I can think of short of disassembly, would be to check actual oil pressure where the sender screws in, at least then you might be able to ascertain where the problem is or isn't.
I would think that if you have good pressure at the sender fitting, then the problem would be above that point and would effectively eliminate either the pump or the by-pass.

From what I can discern, the previous engine had a noise and the cam was wiped out.
The "new" engine has been noisy from the get-go.
Assuming that the current problem is a result of poor assembly (goop in a passage...) may be folly.

Given that both the oil filter housing and the oil pump would be re-used during an overhaul.
I would be wanting to verify both of those valves, before digging any deeper.
BB

[terrence]

When I get frustrated over things like this, I often find that I can get a bit of tunnel vision.
I can convince myself that I know exactly where problem lies and proceed to overlook all other possibilities.
I have learned to go for a walk, sometimes a very long one, until I can wrap my head around things better.
I would hate to see you pull the motor apart, yet again, only to find nothing conclusive.

I am with Tim on this one :
"I would also remove and take a close look at the oil filter housing. There is a high pressure bypass valve with a spring inside there. I would inspect to make sure it's assembled correctly."
If that all checks out okay then I would be dropping the pan, pulling the pump and checking the relief valve in the pump.

The only definitive test I can think of short of disassembly, would be to check actual oil pressure where the sender screws in, at least then you might be able to ascertain where the problem is or isn't.
I would think that if you have good pressure at the sender fitting, then the problem would be above that point and would effectively eliminate either the pump or the by-pass.

From what I can discern, the previous engine had a noise and the cam was wiped out.
The "new" engine has been noisy from the get-go.
Assuming that the current problem is a result of poor assembly (goop in a passage...) may be folly.

Given that both the oil filter housing and the oil pump would be re-used during an overhaul.
I would be wanting to verify both of those valves, before digging any deeper.
BB





Noted, I'm willing to do what I can before it comes to stripping it to block.

[terrence]

Well, I haven't touched the van in awhile but its been on the back of my mind. I was thinking the other day, what are the chances of taking a hand oil pump and connecting it to the block where an after market sensor would go and just pumping the engine with oil and try to unblock a passage or see if anything comes through the head at all?

[originalkwyjibo]

You could pull the distributor and rig up a shaft to turn the oil pump driveshaft with a drill and do the same thing. This is common practice to prime new or rebuilt engines prior to initial startup.

[originalkwyjibo]

Priming as I suggested above is likely preferable in your situation since it mimics the normal operation of all the engine parts. A priming tool for a small block chevy may work on the van and should be readily available at most auto parts stores. The other option would be to modify a used distributor. The SBC requires the distributor body be in place or a bushing to mimic it in order to complete the oil circuit to the top of the engine. I'm not sure if the van needs this or not.

[Toni]

Hello
I`m new in this forum, but hav been following this thread.

My guess your problem is in camshaft bearings. i have 2y engine in garage in peaces for overhaul and was cheking how the oil goes to lifters. From camshaft bearing no.4. same oil hole goes to Crankshaft bearing and to cylinder head.

And when you prime the engine whit the drill you don`t need distripution body in place. And when you pump the oil should come out from lifter/rod`s end.

So try cheking oil pressure from that channel:
In outside of engine is oil pug where you can add oil pressure gauge. from the pic left of the red circle.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/IMG_1798_zps98c2699e.jpg



So hope this helps you out.

[Jdelgado]

There are the coolant bypass hoses on your throttle body, hopefully it's one of those.........because the only other place is the air valve between the intake manifold halves. If the hoses on your TB are okay, then you will likely need to remove the upper half of your intake manifold to access the air valve hose. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/cooling%20system/IMG_3259_zpst6qweov0.jpg


Those 2 thicker hoses above the coolant lines, I cant remember off hand but those are vacuum hoses right? :cnfsd:
I dropped off some parts at my mechanic for an unrelated issue and noticed these were rock hard and should to be replaced.
Any information on what to replace them with would be greatly appreciated, Thank you!

[timsrv]

Those hoses are included in my breakdowns on this thread: https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?342-Top-End-Rebuild, the question is whether or not these parts are still available through Toyota. Hopefully yes, but if not you'll need to either re-use the old (if they can be saved) or you'll need to find other type hoses (like molded heater hoses) you can cut from to make it work............good luck. Tim

PS: Please post your solutions in that other thread (linked above) :). Tim

[Jtbechtold]

Wow! it seem like I am having the same issue and the original post.