Broken bolt extractor in bolt nightmare

[SpaceToaster]

Got the gaskets installed and engine mostly back together with little hicups; cept for this...
3255
First I broke the bolt
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Then I broke the bolt extractor...

-then using a chisel to try to knock out the bolt extractor messed it up so it was flush with the bolt
3258
Finally I drilled a hole with a carbide bit and tried to use a chisel to turn the bolt but all Ive accomplished was deforming the bolt.(after reading on another form I should heat it with acetylene first).

I dont think I should just connect the water outlet with one bolt, since it's pressurized, but could I get away with it and sticking quicksteel in the hole?
Should I just buy a new headblock since it'd cost less than buying a plasma cutter?

I feel stymied here.

[brentlehr]

So the extractor tip is stuck in the bolt? I'd say drill it out but not sure how to go about that with a hardened bit stuck in there. Very tough situation for sure. I'd pull it and take it to a machine shop before getting too ambitious. I'm sure there are ways you could tap smaller holes closer to the water outlet or use an epoxy but that's a temp fix.

On another note, seeing this post made me decide to totally drill out a broken lower shock bolt on my van. It's in there good and I've been on the fence about using an extractor for this reason.

[timsrv]

Can't offer much at this point. I never liked that type of easy-out and it looks to be a bit small for that bolt (biggest you can fit in there is the one you want). Of course the problem you have now is that chunk of easy-out inside the bolt hole. As I'm sure you're now well aware, hardened steel is a roflroflroflroflrofl to drill. If/when you get that out, here's a post that should help:

Note: If you click on the blue arrow next to my username it will take you to the original post.

Here is my Snap-on Easy-Out kit.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/86%20LE%20rebuild/IMG_3105_zpsb0da5ccf.jpg

This kit is very helpful when removing broken studs. The reverse ground drill bits can be very helpful too. Sometimes studs will come right out while drilling.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/86%20LE%20rebuild/IMG_3106_zpsc0567594.jpg

Here's my one-handed technique for drilling and using easy-outs :)>:. Camera was in my left hand drill was in my right. Enjoy :dance2:

http://youtu.be/QxemmCudtZw

Heat can also help, but you need to be very careful when applying it to aluminum. Propane won't likely get hot enough to damage, but doesn't get quite hot enough to do much good (depends on how badly the bolt is stuck). Acetylene will definitely get hot enough, but can easily get too hot. Too hot is bad as it has potential to destroy your head (everything seems fine until your work area becomes a molten puddle). If you don't want to take the chance, you might contact a mobile welder and ask if he has the ability to burn it out. It always amazes me what those guys can do (the ones who know what they're doing). Best of luck. Tim

[Rufus]

Mouse milk, left hand drill bit, and heat.

[timsrv]

Here's a thread that might give you some more ideas: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?5-A-few-tricks-for-removing-broken-exhaust-studs. Due to your circumstance (hardened steel in the bolt hole) you will have a hard time keeping the drill bit centered (will want to walk on you while drilling). If I were extracting in this location, I'd probably take a plate of aluminum and make a custom "drill block" out of that. A drill block is basically a plate with a drill bushing in it. You can index and bolt/clamp the plate to the engine as required to keep it stationary. Then you don't need to worry about the sideways movement of the drill bit. Then you can drill without concern of sideways "walking" of the drill bit (concentrate on downward force). Tim

[Rufus]

A drill block is a really good idea.

[SpaceToaster]

Ive got everything else on this van great but this bolt is still plaguing me. I can drive without it but i leak coolant and need to constantly top off.

I followed one friends suggestion to go at it with a die grinder and try to make a screw slot but it was already too deep for that.
I tried going at it with acetylene but as Tim said, it got a bit too hot and seemed to melt the bolt to the hole.

Next I got a good high quality set of cobalt drill bits but walking was a problem and I hadnt thought to use a drill block.


Sadly things have gone from bad to worse.
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I have a month to get this van running well enough to drive it across country.
Im really seeing two options at this point, as deep as Ive got it and as much as Ive deformed the hole;
buying a new cylinder head on ebay for $200
or dismantling everything and taking it to a machinist to bore out the hole and threat a new one, which may end up costing just as much.

Is this salvageable?

[brentlehr]

Yep, that's pretty gnarly. I'd go the replacement cylinder head route. No telling what results you'd get at the machine shop and the price might get pretty close to the used replacement cost. But if you're going to pull the head, you could always have them look at it to give you an estimate. You might want to have the replacement head checked out first if you plan to go that route too.

[timsrv]

The good news is the seal takes place around the big hole, so damage around that little hole isn't going to matter much (as far a sealing goes). The bad news is that's a blind hole (isn't drilled all the way through). Because it's blind, it would make burning it out a bit challenging, but still, I've seen welders with the correct equipment do some amazing things. It might be worth calling a mobile guy & at least discuss the possibility. If you have a drill bit that's actually hard enough to drill through that, then a drill block and bushing could still work as well. I've got a whole assortment of weird and unusual drill blocks I've made for doing that type of extraction, and they can work good. The part that might be hard is finding the hardened bushings that you'll want to use. I get all my stuff at Boeing Surplus for cheap, but you can also get new from McMaster Carr and/or other tooling supply places (do a Google search for McMaster). Once you have it drilled out, then just use an easy-out like the type I posted in the pics above. If it takes excessive rotational force, then assist by heating the area while trying to remove.

Even if the hole and/or threads get messed-up, as long as you're not breaking chunks off it, you should still be able to use a Helicoil or a key-insert to repair.

As far as this type problem goes, you're lucky that it's in an easy to access spot (with the PS access cover off). These can look ugly, but still be salvageable. I've done a lot of broken bolt/broken tap removals, and although this one looks challenging, I'm still pretty confident it could be repaired without head removal. There's no substitute though for proper tools, so unless you get the right stuff and/or hire the right people, continuing to mess around with it will likely only make it worse.

Of course I can also understand the money issue. Putting another head on it might make more sense to some. Good luck. Tim

PS: Most of your better auto parts stores (like Napa) usually have counter people who know about the local talent. You might go into a place like that and ask if they know anybody that is talented at extracting broken taps/bolts. It's very possible they can direct you to somebody who has the tools & skills to get the job done for a reasonable fee. If the auto parts place doesn't know, then your local mechanic should know (I'm guessing he's been there done that more than once).

[SpaceToaster]

The left handed cobalt drill bit has had no problem going through it, my problem has just been walking. I found some cheap aircraift drillbit bushings online and will put in an order; some even already in a jig. They sell a tool for turning the extractor at O'reilly's so Ill get that if I have success with the jig.

It'd be a pain to replace the head if I dont have to.

[timsrv]

I went on youtube and found a situation similar to yours. This guy admits he's not a welder, and he has some fails, but he gets success. This demonstrates one method of extraction using a welder. FYI, the video is rather drawn out, the part you want starts at 9:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejG5zWo0cYY&ebc=ANyPxKre6jMC4iVXztDtOn_b4Am5IrhP2Q9yoYHLVrr7i2 PRt52V4RhcjxRnZSPHL1-KwBQHg79-

The drill block method takes a lot more set-up time and is rather complex, but can also work well. If you go this route, take a 3/8" aluminum plate that's cut just a little bigger than the flange. Trim as required so it sits flat on the flange (without interference), but leave excess wherever possible. Measure the spacing between the 2 holes there, then put 2 holes in the plate (drill them to be the exact distance apart of the holes on the flange). One hole should be only big enough to fit the bolt through (so you can thread it into the undamaged hole). The other hole should be big enough to press a hardened drill bushing into. The ID of that bushing should be the recommended hole size for the easy-out you intend to use. The easy-out should be the next size down from the minor diameter of the broken bolt. Once you have the plate drilled and bushed, put it in place and use the good bolt to hold it down. Tap/bump it around as required to make the bushing align with the damaged hole. Once aligned, tighten the bolt, then use a scribe to scratch a line into the plate (from underneath) that shows the periphery of that flange. In some instances, spray Dykem or even quick drying spray paint may work for areas you don't have good access. Sometimes I'll use Hi-Spot Blue (or similar) to help transfer surface of flange to underside of plate. Regardless of what you use, the object is to put a "picture" of the flange onto the bottom side of plate. Once you have a good "picture" drill and install the locating dowels.

Locating dowels are just pins that will hit up against the flange (in key areas) to make it fit tight and hold in place..........that magic place where the drill bushing perfectly aligns with the messed-up hole. Once you have good lay-out marks, drill holes and install dowels. In a pinch, you can use anything for dowels. You can grab a dull drill bit, break it and use the pieces. I've even threaded holes and used screws to locate. When it's all bolted down, secure, and the bushing is aligned with the hole, using an appropriately hardened drill bit (same diameter as the bushing ID), drill through the broken bolt/tap. You should use a cutting oil to lubricate and cool the drill bit. Once the hole is drilled, remove the drill block and use the easy-out. If rotational force is too much, don't risk breaking easy-out.........apply heat to flange (to aluminum around bolt hole) and try again. Good luck. Tim

[timsrv]

Oh, thought I would add that when making a drill block it's important to drill the holes straight (especially the drill bushing hole). With care this can be done with a hand drill, but if available, a drill press will do the job quickly and accurately. Tim

[pinkgrips236]

What about skipping trying to remove the broken bolt and welding threaded rod onto of the broken bit.

So instead of using a bolt you just thread a nut on?

[SpaceToaster]

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It's slow work but here is what ive come up with after shopping for mobile mechanics and deciding to go it again myself.

[89TownAce]

I can't really tell what you've done in that last pic, but let me tell you how I solved the same situation several years ago.


I used a BIG ASS drill bit and drill right through the broken bolt/extractor and took out all the existing threads. I then tapped that big hole for a Extra Heavy Duty Keensert which is a threaded insert with the correct size internal thread. Worked like a charm.

EDIT: OK I see you made a drill guide now. That might work, but I'd still just oversize the hole and install an insert.

[timsrv]

That looks good SpaceToaster. There should be some sort of stop to prevent movement, but that's pretty much what I was describing. I'm hoping your next post will say "It's Fixed!" Tim

[SpaceToaster]

the bushing had a similar outside diameter to the bolt hole and sits inside the top after I hammered it with a rubber mallet.

Unfortunately, Ive gone through about 4 cobalt drillbits, a coulple left handed hardened steel bits too and the hole doenst seem to have gotten anywhere, just looks "cleaned up"

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[Chi-Town]

Look into a mobile edm service. That extractor is harder than any drill bit you'll find retail. An edm can buzz through it in minutes and not touch the threads.

[SpaceToaster]

The broken extractor is long gone.
At this point Im just trying to get through the bolt.

[brentlehr]

Pull the head and take it to a machine shop.. hopefully they can tap it. If not, find a used or new replacement. Seems easier than everything you've tried so far.

[timsrv]

The broken extractor is long gone.
At this point Im just trying to get through the bolt.

That sucks. I've never had problem drilling through standard bolts, but easy-outs are are near impossible to drill (that was my initial concern). I'm thinking there must still be some easy-out left in the hole. I assume you're using a high quality cobalt??? Here's the ones I'd recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/TTP-HARD-drills-Imperial-Stainless/dp/B010TC6W0K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1460861681&sr=8-2&keywords=ttp+hard+drill+bits#customerReviews

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQyCdwpBQe0

[SpaceToaster]

things have gone from bad to complete and utter hell after I drilled all the way through the bolt and got a much larger, much deeper, and much harder (undrillable) bolt extractor stuck in the bolt.

3683

I can say that at least I tried but at this point I might have to just swap out the head.