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austinfromflorida
01-07-2016, 04:07 PM
Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Rufus
04-09-2016, 07:22 AM
I want my air conditioner charged with R12, lol. I can't find any shops here in Texas that use it, nor in California where I live. But if Austin doesn't want it, I'll sell it to you.

Riverology
04-09-2016, 09:37 AM
Rufus, I think you have to buy the r12 from eBay and then find someone to service it. HAven't looked lately, but I did see that it was available. I'm in the same boat and trying to decide weather to junk the working AC or not. I hear the conversion to r134 is expensive and cool at best.

timsrv
04-09-2016, 12:29 PM
I want my air conditioner charged with R12, lol. I can't find any shops here in Texas that use it, nor in California where I live. But if Austin doesn't want it, I'll sell it to you.

You can still get r-12, but it will cost you. If yours is just low, buy a couple cans off of eBay or craigslist and use a cheap piercing tool to put it in. That's what I did before I had the fancy equipment and it worked well. Just clean the sight glass on the drier/receiver, turn the AC on (both front & rear if equipped), fan(s) on high, set RPMs to about 2k, then get under and while watching the sight glass add the freon to the inlet port. Watch the sight glass for bubbles & stop adding when the bubbles go away. When you get back inside the van it should be blowing cold. Tim

http://www.onecraigs.com/craigslist-search/index.htm?cx=015798947652255651354%3Acymayug0us8&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=r12+freon&sa=Search&siteurl=www.onecraigs.com%2F&ref=&ss=3985j5093957j9

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1312.R1.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.TRS5&_nkw=r12+refrigerant&_sacat=0

Some of the eBay sellers will say you need to verify you're licensed, so I usually avoid purchasing from there. I have chanced it before though and nobody ever pressed the issue (even the ones that said they would). I think they list that way to avoid scrutiny. Tim

PS: If pressure in your system is really low, compressor won't initially come on (there's a pressure switch in the system that prevents compressor when low). Assuming it's only that, the compressor will come on when pressure starts coming up, then it will suck it in quicker. That's what my 89 did when I got it. It was too low for the compressor to run. Half way through the 1st can it took off & system was full & working by the end of the 2nd can. After charging that once, I used that AC for years without another need for freon. Tim

originalkwyjibo
04-09-2016, 03:44 PM
You can also use a jumper wire to bypass the pressure switch. I helped with a few a/c services at a shop I worked at as a teen and I remember doing it that way when the pressure was too low. This was when you could still get r12 at the local Kmart.

timsrv
04-09-2016, 04:37 PM
Lol, one of the old 14 oz cans I found in a box of stuff from ~30 years ago still had a K-mart price sticker on it..........$1.77 :yes:

Rufus
04-09-2016, 09:08 PM
Ok, so if my system is low, how many cans should I buy to fill up one van? I have two vans that need a recharge.

tbkilb01
04-10-2016, 01:17 AM
Ok, so if my system is low, how many cans should I buy to fill up one van? I have two vans that need a recharge.
The Sight glass is a good indicator of refrig volume in system.
3 cans charged my system really good last year and its still cooling. I did put a couple of cans of sealer conditioner first to rejuvenate the o ring seals etc...i really dont use A/c too much and let the system run really low, I even thought it had leaked out.. I actually couldnt remember the last time I had checked it. When I did finally use it, it felt really weak at best... When I started the system the compressor would not cycle until past the first can, then it started doing it's thing. I "guessed" 3 cans, actually only used 2 1/2... :dance2:

timsrv
04-10-2016, 04:52 AM
Ok, so if my system is low, how many cans should I buy to fill up one van? I have two vans that need a recharge.

Regarding volume, that will depend on what options you have & how low the system is. The service manual lays it all out, so if you don't already have one, get one and read the AC section. If serviced properly, the system should be evacuated and held at vacuum until nothing remains. Drier/receiver should be replaced, then vacuum reestablished. Once it is determined how much freon/oil the system requires, that exact amount is put back in (usually by weight). Pressure gauges should also be used to verify correct system pressure (high & low sides). Topping off or charging without pressure gauges (sight glass only) works, but there's no real way to know how much oil is in the system and/or how much freon you'll need. I've always been pretty lucky with the low tech/low budget approach, and if that's all I had available I wouldn't hesitate to give it a shot. For our vans, I would probably want ~36 oz present before attempting, but 24 would likely do the job. If you run out you can always get another can and top off later. If you lose the freon again right away, then I'd get some dye and chase it down that way.

FYI, it's very possible for a system to lose freon and not have anything wrong with it. A common reason is long periods of non-use. Rubber hoses are porous and will allow freon to permeate through them. If the AC is used frequently the oil circulates & coats. Once coated the oil plugs the pores and helps seal the hoses. When the AC doesn't get used, the oil eventually settles and the pores begin to open. This allows the freon to permeate out. I've seen perfectly good AC systems lose their charges over a 3 or 4 year period of non-use. This is why it's a good idea to turn on and run your AC for a few minutes each month (even when its cold outside). Tim

Rufus
04-10-2016, 04:20 PM
Thanks you guys. I will be looking into this as soon as I get home.

Riverology
04-10-2016, 07:44 PM
Just turned mine on to see today driving around... blows nice and cold still, though I have what must be the bubble (?) in the gas passing the sight glass every few seconds or so when the van is off. Probably needs a top off, and probably a good idea to go ahead and buy a few cans of the R12 now while there are a few to be had still.

NWVanner
04-12-2016, 12:41 PM
I've used Enviro-Safe/RedTek in my van last year and using the front and rear AC about froze me out of there. I believe Enviro-Safe used to be called Freeze12. I've used this stuff in just about every car I've had that uses R12 for like the past 10 years and have never had a problem. Works well and claims to be compatible with R12 refrigerant and oils. My experience has been good. :thmbup:

I ordered a case of the stuff a few days ago.:)>: I'm excited to top off my van and cruise cool! :wnk:

Riverology
04-18-2016, 08:37 AM
I haven't been able to find anyone in New Mexico yet who will deal with the R12 any longer. Mine is still blowing cold but I know is going to need some love this spring before things heat up too much. I was thinking of using the Redtek (?) R12 replacement in mine as the reviews I've been reading mostly sound positive... and cold. Let us know what you decide to do. -Harv

Burntboot
04-18-2016, 10:06 AM
I was skeptical at first, but after much research I did give it a go on our old Jag.
We drove it for years without the AC working and on a whim I tried Redtek one day.
Results were very satisfactory.
Ice cold air and no leaks (it has a heavy Pine sent, that is unmistakable).

A conversion would have meant new receiver/dryer at the very least and I didn't want to spend gobs of money, only to find a failed evaporator or condenser (both common failure points)
Repair quotes were all over the place with the cheapest interrogation being over $100, the Redtek experiment only cost $60.
The charging parts that come in the kit are a little on the cheap side and I did have to heat the cans to fully empty them (wrapped with a hot/wet towel)
But the price was right, as was the outcome.

Just remember, it is Propane based, so all appropriate safety precautions should be exercised.

BB

brentlehr
04-21-2016, 04:00 PM
Was reading through this and thinking about going the RedTek route but searched my local craigslist for R12 just to see and I found someone with seven 14 ounce cans. My system is intact so with any luck I can get it charged up and I'll be set for years. Just picked up a can of Toyota OEM charge oil on e-bay too.

I bought a charge adapter off ebay a while back. Should I try this myself or find a shop that is certified in R12?

timsrv
04-22-2016, 01:31 AM
Was reading through this and thinking about going the RedTek route but searched my local craigslist for R12 just to see and I found someone with seven 14 ounce cans. My system is intact so with any luck I can get it charged up and I'll be set for years. Just picked up a can of Toyota OEM charge oil on e-bay too.

I bought a charge adapter off ebay a while back. Should I try this myself or find a shop that is certified in R12?

Assuming the system was properly charged before it lost freon, I would not add oil. Freon will permeate out (go away) over time, but the oil should still be in there. If you're going to do a complete evac and/or replace components, only then would I add oil. Tim

brentlehr
05-07-2016, 05:46 PM
I happy to report that after 2 cans of R12 my AC is blowing cold! Only took 6 years and 90K miles to get around to it. It took about 30 minutes to take both cans, and about 10 minutes or so before the compressor kicked in on the first can. Seems much longer than when I've charged new vehicles. Could this be a sign of a worn compressor or just a result of it sitting so long?

timsrv
05-07-2016, 07:43 PM
Not sure, but if it only took 20 minutes to compensate for 6 years of neglect, then I'd say you did good :yes:.............success even! If it blows cold, the compressor must be fine. Now the real test is to see how long it works. Watch your temp gauge! The van will heat up faster & have more tendency to overheat with the AC running. Tim

robgagnon
05-07-2016, 10:09 PM
Greetings from Mexico, where R12 is also not readily available. After spending nearly countless hours researching on the internet, I decided to charge my working, but somewhat undercharged R12 system by adding a propane/butane combination. It cost me less than $15 for everything and works excellently. As an engineer, I am skeptical by nature, but having read in a multitude of sites that these are compatible with R12, and the lubricant for R12, and that the head pressure required is less than that of R12 (so easier on compressor), I decided to try it. Yes, it is flammable but so is R12. I am a risk taker. Fine, you can call me crazy if you like.

Anyhow, I found a camp stove canister with the propane/butane and connected it to a torch head I had cut the flame nozzle off, cut an R12 charge house, coupled them with a hose clamp, and set the can in a bath of warm water. The system charged in about 30 minutes, not all the bubbles in the site glass disappeared, nor do you want them to. The system is efficient with some bubbling.

Now on to my perplexity. My fridge cools even when AC it turned off and rocker switch on fridge is in off position. Hmmm. Compressor engaged obviously, but cycles a lot. Is this normal? I doubt it. But when I turn climate AC on, I can feel the compressor kicking in as if the system was calling for more cooling. Can someone please describe in detail how a normally operating AC system with fridge is suppose to work? Should I be able to chill the fridge without having the interior AC on? Should I be able to have the interior AC on and not the fridge? Thanks!

timsrv
05-08-2016, 01:16 AM
That's interesting. I had heard that some of the newer "greener" AC Freon substitutes were based in butane/propane, so it makes sense. Even though R-12 is flammable, since it was originally intended, as long as I have easy access I'm sticking with that........but it's nice to know there are other alternatives available. I'm not worried too much about contents of the system being flammable. It's inside a sealed system and requires oxygen before it can ignite. If a leak occurs, it's a very well ventilated area & unlikely a spark will occur at the right place & time (any such leak would dissipate quickly, leaving a very narrow window for combustion).

I heard they were experimenting with some additive in Germany that makes the propane based Freon non-flammable, but it was extremely toxic to humans and if inhaled it would stop your heart. Personally I'd rather take my chances with the flammable stuff. I work on ammonia absorption systems for a living and these use hydrogen (even more flammable). It's kind of funny because that system uses heat to circulate coolant. And how is the heat generated? By burning a propane flame under the boiler of course :yes:. The only thing separating the hydrogen from the flame is the steel tube the boiler is constructed of (which due to constant expansion/contraction cycling has a tendency to fatique & crack). Over my career (over 20 years now) I've had personal experience with fires on 3 separate occasions. Fortunately, on each occasion I was working on/testing the units at the time and was able to extinguish before things got out of hand. In my opinion, using a mechanical pump to circulate a propane based coolant, inside a sealed system, in a well ventilated area, is much safer than burning a flame under a steel tube full of hydrogen :wnk:. Tim

brentlehr
05-09-2016, 06:13 PM
I may have messed up... while charging I didn't have the rear AC turned on... just forgot. So while cruising around today with the front blowing ice cold I turned on the rear and it gets sort of cool. Now the front temp is blowing warmer. I haven't checked the sight glass again but my thoughts are that I should have had both running while charging so I get the correct level of refrigerant to run both the front and rear units. Correct? Not sure how or if they are separated when you engage the switches.

timsrv
05-10-2016, 02:14 AM
I'm not sure how much difference it makes, but when you're servicing the system, everything is supposed to be on and running. Since that's the way you're supposed to do it, I never tried doing it any other way (so I don't have similar experiences to share with you). Probably no big deal. Worst case scenario would be you under serviced the system. Like you said, turn it all on, & check again for bubbles. If bubbles are present, then add Freon until they are gone (or at least tiny).

FYI, even when properly serviced, the van AC never was all that great. If you're driving all day and the cabin temp has been maintained in the comfort zone, then the van AC is adequate. If however the van has been baking in the sun, and you turn it on for 1/2 hr drives, then you're asking too much and it won't be able to keep up. Tim

djshimon
06-15-2016, 05:03 PM
Did anyone worry about changing out the drier before adding redtek or more r12? Is it necessary?

timsrv
06-15-2016, 11:29 PM
Did anyone worry about changing out the drier before adding redtek or more r12? Is it necessary?

Good point. When servicing AC systems, it's always best to evac the system, replace the receiver/drier, pull a deep vacuum, then recharge the system with the correct volume of oil and Freon (either by weight or volume). Having a good manifold gauge set is also important as to avoid over/under charging and to help identify/troubleshoot problems with the system.

This thread though is more along the lines of trying to get away with cheating by simply adding more freon from a can. Assuming the system was properly serviced in the past, and has simply lost some freon, then this can be done with a cheap piercing tool, a can of freon, watching the sight glass of the receiver/drier for diminishing bubbles, and checking AC output temperatures. Tim

djshimon
06-16-2016, 01:51 AM
Great thanks. I'm going to go the Redtek route and add it to the system which I've read should work. I just got my a/c running last fall after I'm guessing 10+ years and it doesn't seem to stay cold for long on hot days, especially with the rear a/c on.

LateralTech
06-16-2016, 04:20 PM
Great thanks. I'm going to go the Redtek route and add it to the system which I've read should work. I just got my a/c running last fall after I'm guessing 10+ years and it doesn't seem to stay cold for long on hot days, especially with the rear a/c on.

I am interested to hear how the RedTek 12a project goes. Let me know when you get it done.

djshimon
06-17-2016, 02:14 AM
Will do.. I've read good things about it.

LateralTech
06-28-2016, 07:43 PM
I went the RedTek route and got some strange results. The front is blowing hot now 85+ degrees and the rear is blowing around 62 degrees.

From the bubble window, there is a frothy mixture. Should this be clear?

Update- I added the second bottle and reved up the RPMs to 2000. The front is now blowing at 65!
Its still frothy in sight glass though. Not sure I want to add anymore though without a manifold.

dirtritual
05-22-2017, 02:46 PM
thanks everybody for this extremely helpful thread! trying to figure out what the best refridgerant to use would be, but am a little confused since i don't have experience doing this before. I take it R12 and red tek are different? but when looking for red tek, found this: https://www.amazon.com/Cans-RED-Refrigerant-Freon-Replacement/dp/B00DJDYMEA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495421334&sr=8-1&keywords=red+tek+refrigerant

trying to find somewhere i can get something legit locally, rather not have to buy it online, but also need my air conditioning to get as cold as possible this summer cause i have skin issues that are really irritated from the heat.. already pretty miserable in over 90 weather. any info, suggestions?

also when i ran the a/c in order to check the sight glass, i did not have the rear a/c turned on. would this affect the reading? seems i have no refridgerant at all in there.

djshimon
05-22-2017, 06:02 PM
I still haven't added anything to my a/c-it was blowing mostly cold but cycling on/off until part of the compressor started making a horrible whining sound. I'm hoping it was just clutch mechanism but I'll have to figure it out soon because it's getting hot here(especially in the van).
I am now leaning towards straight r12 but became lazy when the weather cooled last fall.
Glad to hear the RedTek worked great for you LateralTech!

PNW vanwagon
06-22-2017, 09:54 PM
i did a charge using the RED TEK R12a Kit for 69.00. i used the included LeakStop and one of the cans of the R12a back in april. ran good and cold but might have started getting less cold a couple months later so added a can of Red Tek Pro Seal and another can of R12a

i'll see how long it runs cold this time. if it drains out by next summer i might try another Pro Seal can and possibly go back to older R12 freon - i've seen some for sale on local craigslist

95-le/sc-all-trac-rip
06-22-2017, 11:13 PM
I'm considering getting a vanwagon for a summer rig(live in the northeast), so i'd want the a/c working. Has anyone retrofitted to r134a?

JPERL
06-23-2017, 02:08 AM
I'm considering getting a vanwagon for a summer rig(live in the northeast), so i'd want the a/c working. Has anyone retrofitted to r134a?

Yes I have had (3) or (4) R134 retrofits and it works good not great like R12. You get the new R134 fittings a new A/C dryer and 3 lbs. of Freon if you have a dual A/C system and an ice box and your good to go. Sometimes its necessary to replace the A/C compressor if its been many years since the A/C was operational

95-le/sc-all-trac-rip
06-23-2017, 04:26 PM
is the condenser still available for the 2wd dual sunroof, cooler box ? Rockauto says not in stock. I don't have a vin # to check with a stealership on.

timsrv
06-24-2017, 02:10 AM
I used this one: http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=2994240&cc=1279751&jsn=12. It's a Denso, probably factory OE except with a decent price. Listing claims it fits 85 - 89 w/ ice box or without. I used it on my 86 with factory dual air (front & rear), but no ice box.

95-le/sc-all-trac-rip
06-24-2017, 09:02 AM
That is showing just the accumulator?







I used this one: http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=2994240&cc=1279751&jsn=12. It's a Denso, probably factory OE except with a decent price. Listing claims it fits 85 - 89 w/ ice box or without. I used it on my 86 with factory dual air (front & rear), but no ice box.

timsrv
06-24-2017, 11:21 AM
Duh, so it is........When I read your post, for some reason my brain interpreted condenser as accumulator. Sorry. What's wrong with the condenser?

95-le/sc-all-trac-rip
06-24-2017, 03:17 PM
I've heard that it can be a typical problem. Every Vanwagon that I look at has non-functioning a/c, I guess I want to prepare for worse case scenario.

dogger562
06-29-2017, 10:18 PM
Yes I have had (3) or (4) R134 retrofits and it works good not great like R12. You get the new R134 fittings a new A/C dryer and 3 lbs. of Freon if you have a dual A/C system and an ice box and your good to go. Sometimes its necessary to replace the A/C compressor if its been many years since the A/C was operational

What's the a/c dryer?? I'm thinking of going this route.

timsrv
06-30-2017, 04:26 AM
What's the a/c dryer?? I'm thinking of going this route.

It's also known as an accumulator or a receiver.

dogger562
07-05-2017, 12:09 PM
It's also known as an accumulator or a receiver.

Ok thank you Tim

dogger562
07-05-2017, 12:56 PM
Ok so my route changed from the last time I meet this nice a/c thech guy who was nice enough to explain to me the pro's and con on switching freon he said that he can do both but he recommends me sticking to R12 that our system was designed for or completely swapping everything. And or that he can sell me the cans and I can do it my self because he doesn't like working on those vans, !no offense taken!


Ok on the system. He recomends sticking to R12 to have full capacity 45-50 degrees, the other way that I'll be getting 65-70 and when it's really hot engine running for a while it was going to be tough.

Steps he was going to do. First and the most important was change the valves that 80% of leaking or bad systems go bad from there. if I dint know the history of the van witch I dint thethen he was going to vacuum everything out then put a leak and house refrigerator freon to inspect and make sure compressor works then take that out if everything is good then he would add the R12.

He was going to charge me $275 to do it but I also have a 84 Vanagon that need gas I just got the cans now in looking for gage manifold and vacuum you guys can see the R12 cans I gotin the classified section ill keep you guys posted also any tips or advice please post it I'm doing things that if it weren't for this Web site would almost be impossible. Thank you all and specially to the administrators

Ace MM
07-06-2017, 03:28 AM
R134 conversion.
Glad I paid someone and fortunate nothing was bad as it hadn't been used by the PO, who imported it.
Blows cold and when it's been 100+ it's quite nice inside.

dogger562
07-18-2017, 07:10 PM
ToyotaVanTech special 2) 14oz cans for 75 shipped or 3) for $100 both shipping included I can also throw a find leak for an extra $ 20 I found a good stash of this stuff, stock up for a rainy day these sell way more on E-Bay. If you can't service your van, ask your local shops that if you get them the R12 can they do it??? Most don't do it because they don't have the refrigerant

Bizcotch
07-27-2017, 12:51 AM
(I searched and searched but didn't find an answer. Now I'm left asking a dumb and newbie question) Any info on location of low side recharging port? Underneath passenger seat? 2. I read on here that it's recommended replacing dryer, does it require vacuuming system? Info: van has not ran in the past 11 years and AC was not serviced/recharged since mid 90's. However, AC button works/lights up and compressor engages when accelerating a bit. But no cold air. So... I bought a RedTek r12a kit and not sure where to begin. :?::cnfsd:

Any my info is greatly appreciated.

dogger562
07-28-2017, 04:00 AM
(I searched and searched but didn't find an answer. Now I'm left asking a dumb and newbie question) Any info on location of low side recharging port? Underneath passenger seat? 2. I read on here that it's recommended replacing dryer, does it require vacuuming system? Info: van has not ran in the past 11 years and AC was not serviced/recharged since mid 90's. However, AC button works/lights up and compressor engages when accelerating a bit. But no cold air. So... I bought a RedTek r12a kit and not sure where to begin. :?::cnfsd:

Any my info is greatly appreciated.
Maybe this helps.. off my 84 manual

Bizcotch
07-28-2017, 11:08 PM
Maybe this helps.. off my 84 manual
Awesome!! Thank you sir.

dogger562
07-30-2017, 03:19 PM
Ok, so I guess I wasn't one of the luckys that just threw refrigerant on their systems and just worked. I'm going share my troubleshooting and see if I can get to the bottom of it.... So after trying to charge system it wouldn't suck the refrigerant nor the compressor engage, compressor did cycle when I jumped it.. Things that I'm going to do, change dryer, change expansion valve, check breakers and relays. Thanks ill keep you guys posted

PNW vanwagon
07-30-2017, 03:50 PM
you might have already done it: but low side needs to build up certain amount of pressure before compressor kicks in. i remember it took longer than anticipated when recharging my system for the compressor to kick in and start pulling in the refrigerant - just wanted to put that out there before you replace a lot of other components.

dogger562
07-30-2017, 04:23 PM
you might have already done it: but low side needs to build up certain amount of pressure before compressor kicks in. i remember it took longer than anticipated when recharging my system for the compressor to kick in and start pulling in the refrigerant - just wanted to put that out there before you replace a lot of other components.Thanks, I left it for about 40min, the gauge would just retrieve to 0 from vacuum. Before I did anything a checked whit gauges and had cero lowside pressure and 150 highside.I checked manual and it indicates that refrigerant is not circulating plus those parts are common problem on almost the majority of issues might as well just change them, spent like $35 on both. Thank you much

timsrv
07-30-2017, 08:15 PM
If you're trying to service an empty system from the compressor port, that may be your problem. You could either bypass the pressure switch with a jumper wire or you could add freon from the intake port under the front of the van. Adding from the remote intake port will allow the system to take more freon and you'll satisfy the pressure switch sooner. Tim

PS: Of course I'm assuming you have remote ports. I know 86 - 89 has them, but I'm a bit unfamiliar with 84 - 85.

dogger562
07-30-2017, 08:47 PM
I was wondering what that nipple was doing there . 2 questions. If charged from the front I'm imagining it would be whit the lone hose right? I can keep the gauges on compressor to monitor because they wont reach and would bypassing the pressure switch be the same thing as bypassing the compressor because I already did, whit compressor lone wire and I did see the pulley rotate which im guessing compressor engaging and pressure switch bypassed if so? it dint work. But definitely ill try front port. Thank you much

timsrv
07-30-2017, 10:12 PM
I guess it depends on what you meant by bypassing compressor. If you applied + 12VDC directly to the clutch wire and the clutch failed to engage, then you have a failed magnetic clutch. As I said earlier, I'm not too familiar with the 84 - 85 vans, but 86 - 89 have both high and low pressure ports available under front of van. I always use those for charging/monitoring as there is less chance of slugging compressor with liquid freon if you're using those......plus, there's no need to remove the PS engine compartment (or even access the engine) :yes:. Tim

dogger562
07-30-2017, 10:35 PM
Ok, Ill try to make my question simpler. With out bypass, pulley docent rotate at all, when I do bypass it does rotate. Does rotating pulley usually equal compressor/magnet working or will pulley rotate whit out working compressor? Im trying to determine if compressor is good or not.

timsrv
07-31-2017, 12:29 AM
Yeah, if you hear a click and the pulley starts spinning, then the magnetic clutch is good. If it's spinning and you can't get it to suck any freon then it's possible the compressor is shot or there's a blockage somewhere in the system. Tim

scotty
08-11-2017, 11:39 PM
I was trying to get my AC compressor clutch to engage, by putting 12v to the wire that comes into it, and grounding to the ground wire, and nothing happens. Does this mean that the magnetic clutch is bad, or does the pressure switch need to be engaged, before the compressor clutch will function?

scotty
08-11-2017, 11:48 PM
Also, i checked the voltage from the power wire going to the compressor with the car running and the AC turned on, and it was aprox. 13.4 volts. Is that normal?

timsrv
08-12-2017, 01:44 AM
If you're measuring 13.4VDC between the magnetic clutch wire and engine ground, then the center of the compressor pulley should be spinning. If it's not, then the magnetic clutch has failed. These can & do fail. I should know as mine failed last week (hottest day of the year so far @ 105º F). That clutch came with my "new" compressor I purchased off of eBay 3 years ago. Rather than discharge, replace compressor (again), and recharge, I'm swapping my old OEM original Denso magnetic clutch onto the "new" compressor that's installed now. Having my AC back will be a welcome change as I'm tired of driving with my windows down :joy:. Tim

scotty
08-12-2017, 04:50 PM
Thanks Tim!!

scotty
08-12-2017, 05:00 PM
One more thing, is this the correct part number for 4wd dual AC? # 88320-0101-84

timsrv
08-13-2017, 11:18 AM
Update, I pulled my compressor clutch apart yesterday. There was oil on the "grabbing" surfaces and it was coming from the compressor shaft area. Oil here is bad as friction is required to make the clutch lock-up. So the question is........why is there oil here? In thinking about it I figured it had to be the oil mixed with the Freon that was there, and if that's the case I must be losing my Freon??? So I put a pressure gauge on the low pressure side (engine off) but I still have 80 psi.

When this happened it was the hottest day of the year (so far) @ ~ 105º F, so my working theory is perhaps after extended running at high temps, the pressure got extremely high and started leaking through the compressor shaft, then the clutch got wet with oil, the compressor stopped, the pressure dropped and it quit leaking. Speculation for sure, but it's the only thing that makes any sense. So I used some brake clean on the clutch "grabbing" surfaces and put it back together. AC is working fine again............but for how long???

I'll be ordering a new compressor today as I don't think this one is going to do it's job for much longer. Tim

PS: Scotty, I have no idea what that part number is. I typed it into a couple databases and came up with zilch. Exactly what part are you looking for?

scotty
08-14-2017, 12:05 AM
compressor for an '87 4wd with dual AC. maybe i can find a number on the old one when i pull it out tomorrow.

timsrv
08-14-2017, 01:21 AM
According to the EPC, the original compressor was Toyota part #88320-28090 and that's superseded by 88320-01011-84 (you were missing a 1). That would run you over $250 though, and it does not come with the clutch. My 86 2wd with dual air takes the exact same compressor. I just ordered this one: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=993210&cc=1279751&jsn=12. It's a Denso rebuild with the clutch, and I assume it's just as good as the one you'd purchase from Toyota.

The one I'm running now (the one that's failing) I purchased off eBay and got the cheapest one they had (~$150). This time I decided to spend a little more and get the Denso unit (actually rebuilt by Denso) as I've had very good luck with their rebuilds in the past. Tim

dogger562
08-14-2017, 01:57 AM
Tim, my compressor engages but it doesn't cool much.. I just want to get as much advice as I can before I spend more $.. when I install gauges I have way to much pressure on low side like 95psi and to low high side like 100 according to manual those readings indicate bad compressor.. Do you think I'm right??? If so I was thinking of rebuilding the extra compressor I have I was looking at some videos and it doesn't look that hard have you tried rebuilt kit from E-bay there like $25??? I did charge from front nipples and changed the dryer. Thanks

timsrv
08-14-2017, 02:43 AM
That certainly sounds like a faulty compressor. I'm all for rebuilding components and I'm a little embarrassed to be swapping a complete unit. My core units all have over 200k miles on them though and it's already a big job to discharge, pull a vacuum, add oil, recharge, etc. Then there's the cost of the Freon (I'm still using the ultra expensive R12), so I can justify it. I'm thinking I can trust this new Denso one and $200 seems reasonable (to me).

If you're disassembling the pump and repairing yourself you'll need to invest in some special tools. Once apart you'll need to make sure all the internal hard parts are good. It's one thing to change soft parts on an old working unit, but I'd think twice about spending time and money on one that doesn't pump. Good luck. Tim

dogger562
08-14-2017, 03:00 AM
Thanks, Tim yeah ill need ring pliers and that claw deal I seen a guy get away with a rubber hammer dough.. I'll see what I do its just ironic that I have like 40 cans of R12 and can't put one to use for me..LOL well at least I broke even from the ones I sold on Ebay

scotty
08-14-2017, 05:27 PM
Looks good Tim, Thanks. I'll get one of those too. I figured I'd change the expansion valve too. Are there two for the dual AC system? It looks like RockAuto has a few options for my model van, and one specifies its for the front and other say they are for the coolbox?

timsrv
08-15-2017, 12:03 AM
Depending on options there could be 3. The OE part numbers are as follows:

88515-87002 RR COOLER
88515-87003 COOL BOX
88515-87004 FR COOLER

Personally I'd leave them alone unless you're getting symptoms of a failure. It's been my experience these expansion valves are pretty reliable. It's the ones in the earlier Previas that were junk. Tim

ratatouille
08-16-2017, 03:17 AM
Just about to order this compressor as well thanks for info Tim. Any tips/tricks for the process of swapping this out is greatly appreciated! Just got back into town from driving across state with temps hitting 118 at times! Ready to have my AC back.

timsrv
08-16-2017, 05:44 AM
If I have some extra time I may take some pics and document the replacement/recharging. Tim

timsrv
08-24-2017, 05:25 AM
Update: I installed this in my 86 van on Sunday. It fit perfectly and has been functioning flawlessly (so awesome to have good performing AC again). I was a little pressed for time, so I didn't document to the degree I hoped (I need a Go-Pro and some editing software). Here are the highlights:

Shaft seal failed on my old compressor and was leaking freon/oil out & into magnetic clutch. AC was still working but clutch would completely release/slip if RPM's were increased too rapidly. For the 2 weeks I lived with this I learned how to make it work. I would accelerate normally, then shift to neutral (allowing RPMs to return to idle), then pull it back into gear. It would maintain grip as long as I made gradual changes in RPM. If I accelerated hard enough to downshift, I'd need to "reset" again. This was okay for a while, but cooling was diminishing/issue was getting worse.

Evacuation: I evacuated system using an old R12 processing/recycling machine I found on craigslist :).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4198_zpsl1nnlepi.jpg

This machine sucks freon out through system processing ports (using the valves on my gauge set), separates oil, runs it through a drier, then stores the freon in a tank. It has an accurate scale that keeps track of how much goes into the tank. Due to my blown seal I was only able to recover 2 lbs of freon (should have been 3 - 3.2 lbs). I recovered a little over 1 fl oz of oil while evacuating the system, then 1 oz more from the old compressor. Note: after removal, old compressor was set upside down over a drain pan, then rotated by hand to discharge oil. According to the manual, there should be a total of 2 - 3.4 fl oz of oil in the system. http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4175_zpsyxr04qxs.jpg

Lubrication: The new compressor was supposed to have oil in it already (which it did), but the installation instructions did not say what kind of oil it was :dizzy:. This is important because R12 takes a different oil than R134A (and the two are not compatible). Denso's instructions did call out Denso 6 oil for R12 (as did the factor service manual) or Denso 8 for R134A conversions. Since I'm still using R12 I need Denso 6. To measure the amount of oil in the new compressor and to get rid of it (because I don't know what's in there), I removed the sealed shipping caps and set the compressor upside down in a drain pan. I slowly rotated it by hand to help discharge the oil. After it was done I collected and measured it to be 2 fl oz. After installing the compressor, I poured 2 fl oz of Denso 6 oil directly into an intake port before closing the system. Note: new compressor comes with new o-rings for the intake and outlet ports. I wet the new o-rings in compressor oil before installing them (this helps them to set and seal).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4180_zpsmlx9omka.jpg

Deep Vacuum: Next I used my machine to pull a deep vacuum in the system and I let it run for 45 minutes. Note: FSM calls out 15 minutes minimum, but this is an older vehicle so I wanted it to be thorough. After 45 min I shut the service valves and monitored vacuum for another 15 minutes (this is to verify there's no big leaks). Note: for this level of service, it's a good idea to also replace the receiver/drier, but I just did that less than 3 years ago so I skipped it this time.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4181_zpspqayfegg.jpg

Charging: With a vacuum on the system, the pressure of liquid freon (~80 psi) is more than enough to force a full charge into it without starting or running the compressor (I prefer this method). To do this, I 1st attached a partial can of Denso 6 oil to my gauge set and used the vacuum in the system to suck the last fl oz out of the can, then I hooked my yellow gauge hose to a 30 lb cylinder of R12 and turned it upside down on a scale.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4183_zpsp0jtztkk.jpg

I set the tare weight to zero
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4184_zps0vr8x82d.jpg

By opening the high pressure valve on my gauge set, I allow the liquid freon to travel from the bottle and into the system. When the scale hit 3lbs 3.6 oz (3.225 lbs) I shut the valve. Note: I usually go slightly over what the book calls for because a little is lost in the hoses and a bit more is lost when disconnecting the gauge set.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4185_zpslob64yys.jpg

Checking pressures and temps: After system has been charged and valves are all closed van is started and throttle locked at ~2k rpm. AC is turned on and fan set to max. A thermometer is inserted in the vent (air discharge) to monitor temperature. After 20 minutes low side pressure is recorded @ 28 psi and high side pressure is 175 psi.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4190_zpslizodkax.jpg

According to the manual I should see low pressure side at 21 - 28 psi (good) and high pressure side at 206 - 213 psi (not so good). The service manual does not outline the scenario of normal pressure on low side and low pressure on high side, but it's 85 deg F outside and air blowing out my vents is 43 deg F (which is awesome), so I decided to ignore the lower than specified pressure on the high side (not much I can do about it anyhow).

Here's the box the new compressor came in (genuine Denso)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4200_zpsjieog1md.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4201_zps1e4ycfk9.jpg

Here's a picture of my wasted magnetic clutch (note the oil and debris coming from the shaft area)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/HVAC/IMG_4194_zpsym4tgg6l.jpg


Note: This van is an 86 LE 2wd automatic with dual AC (no ice maker). Different years and/or options may have different specs than what I'm posting here. If you service your AC system I recommend using the Toyota Factory Service manual for your year of van and follow the specs for your specific model/options. Tim

dogger562
08-24-2017, 02:48 PM
Nice, I'm going to do the exact same thing once i get my Denso compressor, good thing I have almost all the equipment dough I don't have the professional vacuum this one should do. I do have a question for all the HAVOC people. Is there a way to connect that vacuum/hose to a tank? Also ill post a pic of an 85 compressor part if any one ever needs it.

timsrv
08-24-2017, 02:56 PM
If you're using R134A you can let it vent. If you're using R12, it's not only illegal, but damn expensive to throw it away. I have a very similar pump, but I think it's only capable of moving freon vapor. With that type of pump, I beleive you're supposed to evacuate the system 1st (let all the pressure out), then you can use that to pull your deep vacuum. I think it can handle the little bits of oil and what not that will go through it. Tim

dogger562
08-24-2017, 02:58 PM
Of an 85

dogger562
08-24-2017, 03:18 PM
Also, to throw my 2 cents in. I was told by an A/C shop that was going to charge me$300 to do the job that “75%" of leaking systems do so threw the port valves and recommends changing them if we don't know the history. I know I dint know what they were maybe will help someone else.

ratatouille
08-25-2017, 01:33 AM
(I need a Go-Pro and some editing software)...

tim- ive got an old version gopro still works i dont use i can send your way if your seriuos about needing one to document van projects

- thanks for write up, just got my compressor in mail as well and ill see what i can also include here if anything . Ive got the 88 dual ac plus front fridge

timsrv
08-25-2017, 02:30 AM
I'll PM you :wnk:

bigeo
08-29-2017, 02:15 PM
I had a local shop resurrect the AC on my 87 4wd van last summer and it worked through the hot times. At the beginning of this summer I turned it on and got warm air, not cold. Took it back to the shop and was told the rebuilt compressor that they had installed was not doing the job and needed to be replaced. This time, I ordered a Denso rebuild from Rock Auto and they installed it. It didn't fix the problem which turned out to be a stuck heater valve. After replacing the valve I got cold air for awhile and then not. The shop now tells me the condenser is leaking. I have been searching online for a condenser (do the 4wd dual systems use a different one then 2wds?) without any luck. Any suggestions? Also, I have a rebuilt compressor from O'reillys that probably is just fine that I would let go for a bargain price.

timsrv
08-29-2017, 03:03 PM
Based on what you said, at this point I would have very little confidence in that shop & certainly would not trust their latest diagnosis. If you cannot do this yourself, I'd be looking for another shop to take it to. If you do indeed have a bad condenser, I would keep an eye out for salvage yard parts and/or "parting-out" posts on craigslist. Good luck. Tim

PS: Depending on where the condenser leak is, it may be reparable. Did they pinpoint the leak? Leaks are usually identified by putting dye into the system, then the leak(s) will usually become easy to spot. Tim

dogger562
08-29-2017, 03:04 PM
I had a local shop resurrect the AC on my 87 4wd van last summer and it worked through the hot times. At the beginning of this summer I turned it on and got warm air, not cold. Took it back to the shop and was told the rebuilt compressor that they had installed was not doing the job and needed to be replaced. This time, I ordered a Denso rebuild from Rock Auto and they installed it. It didn't fix the problem which turned out to be a stuck heater valve. After replacing the valve I got cold air for awhile and then not. The shop now tells me the condenser is leaking. I have been searching online for a condenser (do the 4wd dual systems use a different one then 2wds?) without any luck. Any suggestions? Also, I have a rebuilt compressor from O'reillys that probably is just fine that I would let go for a bargain price.
Just P.M you

bigeo
08-29-2017, 04:21 PM
Based on what you said, at this point I would have very little confidence in that shop & certainly would not trust their latest diagnosis. If you cannot do this yourself, I'd be looking for another shop to take it to. If you do indeed have a bad condenser, I would keep an eye out for salvage yard parts and/or "parting-out" posts on craigslist. Good luck. Tim

PS: Depending on where the condenser leak is, it may be reparable. Did they pinpoint the leak? Leaks are usually identified by putting dye into the system, then the leak(s) will usually become easy to spot. Tim

Since these guys got the AC working last summer for what seemed like a reasonable price and the fact that they have done other work that I was happy with, I have been giving them the benefit of the doubt. They haven't charged me beyond the initial repair and they have put a fair amount of time into it, so I don't question their honesty, but I have come to the conclusion that AC isn't their strong point. They did say that dye was used to determine that the the condenser is leaking. AC work is where I draw the line for DIY car repairs, so I guess I'm going to keep looking for someone to fix this for me or sweat out the next few weeks and just keep living without AC.
r
As for the condenser, would the one from my 86 2wd with front and rear AC work in the 87 4wd? From the notes on parts shown on Rock Auto (not available) it seems that a 4wd condenser would be different.

timsrv
08-30-2017, 12:55 PM
If both vans are there, get underneath and measure/compare. I'm guessing the 2wd has 2 condensers (both smaller) one vertical in front of the radiator and the other horizontal under the front. The 4wd probably only has 1 bigger horizontal one under the front. Tim

MyToy
05-31-2018, 06:30 AM
While overhauling my engine I decided to chuck the old AC compressor and go for a new one. The old one was making some rattling sounds and had 300K on it.
So the shop installed a new compressor and dryer. Evac the system converted to 134 and charged it up. Not real cold. I would say cool when at mid 80's outside. Being in Florida I need this thing to get cold. Am I dreaming here and this will never get cold? The guy told me that the 134 in these older systems is not as good as the R12 and will not provide the kind of cooling it was designed for. Wish I knew that before. So is the the deal or is there something we are missing to get this thing to at least be able to cool enough so I don't have to sit in sweat.

I insulated the engine covers with Dynamite Hood shield. Man that stuff works great. I would recommend it. The engine cover that was super hot is not room temp.

But still not enough to recover the ac.

I guess I will measure the cold output to see where it is. I know this is stupid since the air going in will be proportional to the air coming out but I can at least compare to other vehicles.

He did tell me to use both the front and the back systems all the time. That using both has little effect on the temp level. I did this but the rear one keeps blowing the CB. Schematic calls for a 30 AMP CB but the van only has 20 Amps installed. They look original. Anybody know?

MT

Burntboot
05-31-2018, 11:34 AM
I hate AC issues and am far from an expert but here's the little I do know

R12 is significantly more efficient, as a coolant, than R134.
Systems designed to run on R134 are designed to work efficiently with that freon. (changes to evaporators, condensers and compressors to name a few)
An R12 system thats been converted, has to work harder (compressor cycles more frequently).
The lubricating oil (PAG) is not compatible between the 2 freons and the R134 PAG oil will eat R12 o-rings.
The habit when converting, is to only replace o-rings that get disturbed.
I assume proper procedures were followed for replacing the compressor?
System needs to be vacuumed, compressor drained, correct PAG oil measured and added among a host of other things.

The actual R134 molecule is much smaller than the R12 molecule, as a result, converted systems often develop leaks soon after a conversion.
(Its a bit like running 0W30 oil in an engine designed to run on 20W50)

Even the best conversions won't be as cool as the original freon, IIRC we were getting vent temps about 5-10*F warmer than R12 specs.
Converted systems are also very intolerant of any deficiency, everything has to be working at its best.
When we first started doing them we had a lot of expansion valve failures and quickly got into the habit of just replacing them as a matter of course.
(fewer headaches and happier customers)
The expansion valve is located at each evaporator.

An AC tech that knows his stuff should be able to figure it all out but those guys seem pretty rare.
I would be tempted to replace both Exp valves, refill and retest function.

If you find that even with everything dialled in, cooling is still insufficient there is one other option but it's not for the faint of heart.

There is a product out there, the one I am familiar with is RedTek but there are others.
Essentially it is propane with a strong pine scent added, that way if you ever do spring a leak, you will know right away.

RT is as, if not more efficient, than R12 as a refrigerant and it won't be as prone to leaks and will provide full system performance.
I was skeptical in the beginning probably due to a bad propane BBQ experience when young, but then I looked into the flammability of R134 and realized that while it has a higher flashpoint it is not without issue and if it does leak, you can't smell it.
Propane is also heavier than air so a leak should just dissipate into the atmosphere below the vehicle.
I have never found an AC shop that will condone its use.

My personal experience was on our Jag several years ago, system had been condemned due to leaks and sucked dry and the estimate was north of $2K to resurrect.
As I had nothing to lose I felt it was worth the test drive and for $100 the system was back up and running in an afternoon with no hard parts replaced.
System was still running cold when we sold it 2 yrs later. YMMV
BB

MyToy
05-31-2018, 04:05 PM
Wow! Well the guy that did the work seems to know his stuff but is very conservative in his actions. He goes by the numbers for sure. Your suggestion to rebuild the engine was the best move I made and I thank you for that. Plus I learned a ton about the process. I was able to be involved with every aspect of the process. Man, tons of fun.
So when he was re-installing the engine he asked about the compressor issue. He suggested to splurge and get a new compressor since it had this chatter and 300K on it. So I did. He would not even think about going back to R12. It was a 134 conversion.

He did all the things you mentioned, even the O rings. But it just does not get real cold. By July it will be hotter than hell here and it will never recover at the rate it cools now.

So if I decide to go the RedTek product type is it another evac, dryer, O rings and compressor oil again?

I really doubt he would do it. But I have a friend that can evac it and I can put in the freon replacement.

I would just have to find a few pounds of the stuff.

Any input is always appreciated.
BTW, any thoughts on my Circuit Breaker value question?
I looked again today and verified that the service manual calls for a 30 amp breaker and not a 20 which is in there.

Thanks Again for your input BB

Burntboot
06-01-2018, 01:29 PM
Glad to hear the engine experience worked out well.

As to the CB, if the manual calls for a 30A I would change out the 20A to proper spec and see how it goes, I would not exceed the original spec though.

RedTek and equivalent brands are available at most autoparts retailers, up here CTC, UAP and a host of other places.
Shouldn't be hard to find if you decide to go that route.
As far as changing over, it only needs to be sucked dry, RT is compatible with both PAG oils.
One more consideration, going the RT route will likely void any warranties on parts and labour so you may need to consider that aspect too.

I would want to make sure that the system is operating as efficiently as possible and if either exp valve is compromised, the RT won't solve that.
You may want to talk to your guy and see if he feels there would be any merit in replacing them or perhaps he already has?

MyToy
06-01-2018, 04:17 PM
Wow, thanks BB. For sure the X valves have not been replaced. I will get those done and proceed.

scotty
06-04-2018, 03:06 PM
The RT, or what is propane and butane, seems to work pretty well in either system and with both oils. It's cheap and when I put it in, it pumps out pretty cold. My system was empty when i charged it, and I was using a new compressor, but I didn't change anything else. I just added some oil. My friend used it to top off his system and used it with R134 already in the system, and said they would work together fine. He works in the AC field, for a company that does AC system installations in camper trailers, and it seems to still be working in his car just fine after a year.

MyToy
06-18-2018, 03:22 PM
Still working on getting my air up and running. Now, after the engine has been rebuilt with a new compressor it has not been able to hold R134. They have refilled 3 times already and claim they cannot find the leak. They already replaced the o rings but nothing has been done in the evaporator cases.

By a stroke of luck I found a small shop that only works on Toyota's. I went to see him and he knew our van, in fact he own 2 of them. I told him the story and he told me that since they did not find any die leakage in the obvious spots it is most like in one or both evaporators. I asked him if he could service it and he told me that the parts are questionable. He claimed that even Rock Auto parts don't fit and you don't know it till you get them and put them in. He will not make shift it. It has to be the right fit or he will walk away.

Does anyone know where I can get the correct evaporators for my 1986 LE 2.2 van???

I will assume the worse in that both front and back may need replacing.

Any help would be so much appreciated. I am in Florida and I am cooking like a hamburger in my seat.

I already laid in Dyomat hood insulating material for both the seat engine cover and the extended cover also. This has reduced the heat substantially. With so much glass in our vans the AC is the thing left to get reasonably comfortable.

Thank all of you in advance

MT

Burntboot
06-25-2018, 09:58 AM
This is exactly why I hate AC system revivals.

That being said, if they put dye in, in HAS to be going somewhere.
Even if one or both of the evap's are leaking, even if hidden deep within, you'd think there would be some detectable evidence.
Are they leak checking with just a black-light or are they using a sniffer too?
Sniffers are really good at finding leaks in Evap's.

How fast does the freon leak out, like a day or a month?
Sealants(stop leak) are available and may be an option, but will depend on the severity of the leak.
Not too mention that stopleak after an expensive repair just doesn't seem right but...

ncbrock
06-25-2018, 10:06 AM
I just replaced my front expansion valve and still not getting any cool air in the front. I’m about to give up and let a shop handle it because AC systems are beyond my knowledge. None of the lines are clogged, my blower motor and evaporator are fine. I really don’t know what would be preventing the front from not producing any cool air.

MyToy
06-27-2018, 06:15 AM
Hey BB!

It was leaking out of the system in a few days. So I finally brought it to another AC guy that seemed to have his act together. He filled it back up with 134 and die and found no leakes anywhere. He knew it would come back so we just waited. I took it and it worked as well as it will ever with 134 but failed again in 4 days. But now all that die came out and he found it coming out of the new compressor. It was leaking with drips coming off the bolts.

So, since the compressor is under warranty a new one will be delivered, maybe tomorrow, and this new guy will install.

But I have learned a lot about the AC system it self. There is a bunch of plumbing but due to the twin system but that is understandable. It is actually pretty easy to work on with both evaporators being readily accessible and all the plumbing under neath. But I agree, this is for AC guys. Maybe we can charge with cans but that is about the limit.

Will keep you posted on the results.

MT

Burntboot
06-27-2018, 08:43 AM
Thats great news.
Fingers crossed that the new compressor solves all the issues.
BB

MyToy
07-03-2018, 05:05 AM
OK, the new compressor is in. Blowing cold but sure would like more. May go the TekRed route after I know this leak is over.

Will keep you advised.

Got another issue with Transmission. Have not found Jack on this issue in TVT, will start a new thread.

Thanks again BB

MT

PNW vanwagon
07-23-2018, 12:35 PM
just topped off with redtek. after 1.5 - 2 years AC had gone from cold to slightly cool air. added one can and it's blowing cold again.

one question: while charging i was getting about 38 - 40 psi on the low pressure side and i think tim said the correct range was 21 - 28psi?

i might have a faulty gauge ? but it's working well for now but if anyone has feedback please let me know

here's a photo while charging: the gauge has several color coded ranges for R134A, R12 etc

*also has a highlighted optimal area or 65 - 80psi?

7203

MyToy
07-23-2018, 02:11 PM
Fantastic!
I had another set back with compressor turning off due to low pressure. This I thought was solved with a new compressor. It did least get almost 2 weeks this time but far from being over. Getting under I noticed at the end of the low pressure valve a drip, kind of yellow/orange oil. Looks like it ran down the low pressure tube out of the front evaporator.
I think I must have told this guy 40 times "did you check the evaporator?" He always comes back saying no leaks. So where the hell is this oil coming from? And I had some oil residue on my dash right in front of my far right hand air output. Hello!!! What is this?

This air thing is killing me. At the rate I am going I am lucky to get air by the time fall comes. It is hotter than hell here in Florida!!!

Great News on the RedTek. Even when it was running for a week the output was poor. If at night or early morning it kind of worked full up. During the day it did nothing. So once I stop all these leaks I will do the RedTek.

Great input

MT

timsrv
07-23-2018, 02:47 PM
just topped off with redtek. after 1.5 - 2 years AC had gone from cold to slightly cool air. added one can and it's blowing cold again.

one question: while charging i was getting about 38 - 40 psi on the low pressure side and i think tim said the correct range was 21 - 28psi?

i might have a faulty gauge ? but it's working well for now but if anyone has feedback please let me know

here's a photo while charging: the gauge has several color coded ranges for R134A, R12 etc

*also has a highlighted optimal area or 65 - 80psi?

7203

The specs quoted in my earlier post were from the Toyota Factory Service Manual and is for R-12 Freon. Anything other than R-12 will likely have different pressure specs. You will need to refer to the specs of the specific product you are using (if other than R-12). I personally have only used R-12 in the van, so I am unable to comment as to what pressures you should see. It's good that it blows cold, so congrats on that. I'd be more worried about stress on the system (over time) if pressures are excessive. Tim

PNW vanwagon
07-23-2018, 06:54 PM
The specs quoted in my earlier post were from the Toyota Factory Service Manual and is for R-12 Freon. Anything other than R-12 will likely have different pressure specs. You will need to refer to the specs of the specific product you are using (if other than R-12). I personally have only used R-12 in the van, so I am unable to comment as to what pressures you should see. It's good that it blows cold, so congrats on that. I'd be more worried about stress on the system (over time) if pressures are excessive. Tim

yep i've been researching this some more - it's tricky using redtek and similar products as it's kind of in between the properties of r12 and r134a. i did find a chart for r134a calling for low side pressure to be 35 - 40 psi) but i'm not sure if redtek should be following the exact same numbers. the toyota manual says 28 max so i'll prob try and get the low side pressure down close to 28 and see how things go from there.

7204

Burntboot
07-24-2018, 12:12 AM
PNW - This is what RT has to say on the matter


AEROSOL CHARGING PROCEDURE


Follow all RED TEK® 12a safety precautions before initiating charging process.


1)
Before installing can taper (stock# 508) or Installation Kit (stock# 502) make sure valve is fully turned counter clockwise. Thread the can tap assembly on to the RED TEK® 12a can (stock# 301).


2)
Locate Low Side Service Port and connect hydraulic coupler by pushing onto male service port making sure hydraulic coupler is fully secured.


3)
Start the engine and place the A/C on maximum setting.


4)
Turn can tap valve clockwise into the can piercing the can seal.


5)
Invert the can. (Turn upside down). Make sure can is inverted through entire charging process.


6)
Slowly turn can tap valve counter clockwise allowing refrigerant to flow slowly into system.


7)
Continue with charging process as determined by the RED TEK® 12a conversion chart and adequate cooling is attained. Low pressure gauge should read between 30 and 38 psi. DO NOT OVERCHARGE! EXCEEDING 60 PSI ON LOW SIDE CAN DAMAGE COMPRESSOR!


8)
After RED TEK® 12a charging procedure is completed, turn can tap valve clockwise until valve is fully closed.


9)
Remove hydraulic couplers and charging hoses from low and high side service ports. Do not remove can tap if there is remaining RED TEK®12a inside can. Store unused RED TEK® 12a refrigerant in a well ventilated place away from open flames.


10)
Apply RED TEK® refrigerant identification tags in a highly visible area near charging port.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




MT - Sorry to hear about all the grief, that truly sucks large, hopefully you get it sorted soon.

PNW vanwagon
07-24-2018, 08:26 PM
^ thanks burntboot ! i did see that info on redteks website. wonder if that upper end of 30 - 38 psi range is too much pressure on our vans compressor. also saw some VW vans use redtek and they found 30 psi to be the sweet spot. i'll experiment and see what works best. if it blows plenty cold at 30 psi - i'll go with that

MyToy
09-25-2018, 04:46 AM
Hey BB!
Ok, I finally was able to replace the evaporator and refilled (for the 7th time) with 134a. Compressor came up and cold air was flowing again. Not the greatest but at least when it down into the 80's down here is works pretty good.
It has now been almost a month since the change and it is still holding. I think I am going to buy a set of Red Tek and wait till spring to install. If the system holds the 134 through the winter I will be more comfortable it will hold the Red Tek for some time.

Keep you updated but even a little cool is good:lol:
MT

ncbrock
10-23-2018, 10:04 AM
Well my brand new, OEM, Denso compressor failed on me after only 4 months of use. Yes I was using R134a, and I guess it's my own fault. They have a 1 year warranty but you have to have proof a shop installed it. This was an expensive mistake:wall:

timsrv
10-23-2018, 12:52 PM
That sucks. Do you think the system could have been overcharged? FWIW, overcharging is hard on compressors and is a leading cause of failure. Tim

VanCo
10-23-2018, 03:25 PM
I will admit I have made "shop" invoices for work I did myself to claim warranties. It has always worked, never once was I questioned. I would make a detailed invoice using a template I found online. To be clear, I never used actual shops information. I used all my own info, and made up shop name.

I figure I was a tech in a shop for several years, and ran my own auto repair business as a side job too. I feel I'm more than qualified to install parts. If they want to play games to save a buck, so can I.

ncbrock
10-23-2018, 07:48 PM
That sucks. Do you think the system could have been overcharged? FWIW, overcharging is hard on compressors and is a leading cause of failure. Tim

I used about 80% of the factory requirement recommended for a dual climate/refrigerator system. I believe I did everything correctly, but I have been using the crap out of the AC (daily driven and AC always on) so I guess I got my money's worth, but disappointed it didn't last more than a few months.

MyToy
02-01-2019, 10:04 AM
Still working my AC issues. When the system is fully charged and working the cooling is horrible. Checked everything from 134 levels to air routing but no help.
I finally went to another shop and I was told something I literally did not believe.
So if any of you heard this one please chime in.
He told me that the reasons why the 134 was not as cold as R12 was due to the condenser fan. Yep, he claimed that the fan was not cooling the condenser enough to make the AC real cold. He said it was all that was needed for R12. He believes a bigger fan would improve this greatly. Is there any truth to this??
If it is true, has anyone tried doing this?
I am getting close to heat down here in Florida and would love not to roast this year.

MT

ncbrock
02-01-2019, 11:25 AM
Still working my AC issues. When the system is fully charged and working the cooling is horrible. Checked everything from 134 levels to air routing but no help.
I finally went to another shop and I was told something I literally did not believe.
So if any of you heard this one please chime in.
He told me that the reasons why the 134 was not as cold as R12 was due to the condenser fan. Yep, he claimed that the fan was not cooling the condenser enough to make the AC real cold. He said it was all that was needed for R12. He believes a bigger fan would improve this greatly. Is there any truth to this??
If it is true, has anyone tried doing this?
I am getting close to heat down here in Florida and would love not to roast this year.

MT

He might be right to an extent, but R134 systems use a parallel flow condenser compared to an older serpentine style condenser like what is in the vans. The parallel flow condensers are a lot more efficient. I guess because the R134a isnt as efficient as the R12, it needs more cooling, but I'm not entirely sure a larger/better cfm fan would solve that issue.

Carbonized
02-01-2019, 11:32 AM
I'm working on cooling/ drying my compressed air with an automotive AC condenser right now, and from all I've been reading, it is the condenser itself that is the biggest culprit. The 134 is not nearly as efficient as the R12 was, so when the switch was made, the manufacturers went to stacked plates condensers instead of serpentine tubing condensers (lots more area). I do not know which kind we have on the van but it might be worth investigating. Then again, it doesn't matter how big is the cooling area is if you can't bring cool air to it so a good sized fan might be all that's needed!

Carbonized
02-01-2019, 11:33 AM
OOOPS ncbrock beats me to it :)

timsrv
02-01-2019, 01:10 PM
I agree with the above responses. The van's AC system was designed for R-12, so anything else you use will likely give you less than desired results. I'm still running R-12 and don't plan on ever changing over to anything else. That being said, even with R-12 the AC on these vans isn't the greatest. It's adequate for long drives, but not so great bringing a hot van down to a comfortable temp on the shorter drives. I would think anything less efficient than R-12 would make the system inadequate. Tim

MyToy
02-01-2019, 03:37 PM
Wow!!! You mean this guy could be right????

OMG, I thought total BS.

OK, so if that is the case what would happen if RedTech was used instead of 134?

Would both that and a bigger fan maybe get it cold?

Sorry guys, I am still nodding my head in disbelief.:no: Thank you so much!
I will start researching fans.

You say you are experimenting with an automatic condenser, what is that about. Is this something I can also capitalize on ?

MT

timsrv
02-01-2019, 04:14 PM
I'm far from an expert here because changing Freon types brings us back to the original engineering specifications (so it's an engineering question). The type of Freon used in a system is at the foundation of design and changing that creates huge variables. I personally don't think a bigger fan will completely solve the issue, but it would likely have a positive effect. Of course running a bigger fan would require more power and that could have other negative effects on the already weak charging system. To a small degree, this would also result in more heat generated in the engine compartment, and getting rid of engine heat is already an issue with these vans. Changing the condenser to something designed for 134A would likely have a bigger effect, but if you solve that problem, who's to say the evaporator(s) and/or the compressor wouldn't now become limiting factors. If going back to R-12 isn't an option then perhaps heat exchangers designed for 134A could be a solution. Unfortunately, unless you have the time, ability, tools, and materials to do this yourself I don't see it being a cost effective solution.

PNW vanwagon
02-01-2019, 06:34 PM
i can't find the link right now but if you get really desperate for cold AC i've seen a VW van with no working AC rigged up with an inverter generator on a rear rack powering a small regular portable AC inside the van that vents the hot air out a side window. the van's owners lived in the SW desert and needed AC big time in the summer and said it cooled off the van interior really well. AC ran off a remote control. obviously this is not optimal an optimal setup

ncbrock
02-01-2019, 06:57 PM
Wow!!! You mean this guy could be right????

OMG, I thought total BS.

OK, so if that is the case what would happen if RedTech was used instead of 134?

Would both that and a bigger fan maybe get it cold?

Sorry guys, I am still nodding my head in disbelief.:no: Thank you so much!
I will start researching fans.

You say you are experimenting with an automatic condenser, what is that about. Is this something I can also capitalize on ?

MT

I've heard amazing things about the red tek refrigerant. I believe it runs super efficiently and if I remember correctly you only charge it about 30% of the r12 value. I have cans of this ready to be swapped in in place of the r134, but the r134 worked well enough for me so I never swapped it out.

Tim is right, the AC system already isn't the best with R12, and with r134a it really isn't optimal. I'm not sure about my vent temps, but on a 90+ degree sunny day, the system can barely keep up, it's going to be a little uncomfortable (although still better than windows down). On an 85 degree cloudy day, it works decently enough to be comfortable. The sun is a killer.

timsrv
02-01-2019, 09:48 PM
Speaking of add-ons, Thermo King, Carrier, and possibly other manufacturers make add-on AC systems for vans and refrigeration purposes (catering and food transport vehicles). I was considering such a system for my van but these are commercial systems that come at commercial prices ($3,000 + for just the parts). The only one I'd seriously consider would be direct drive, meaning an engine mounted compressor with pipes carrying the Freon to and from the rooftop unit. If you could not do it yourself it would be a very expensive installation.

There are also RV type electric rooftop units, but these would only work when parked and plugged into power. A generator could be used to run during driving, but mounting, venting, rigging, sound proofing, etc would expensive and problematic (not to mention the space issue). There's also the possibility of powering off a large alternator with an inverter, but that's not without a large price tag and it's own set of problems.

Considering what a PITA add on vehicle AC systems can be, the type of system shown below starts looking much more appealing. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/redneck%20AC_zpscyaprlbl.jpg

Carbonized
02-01-2019, 09:58 PM
I'm not an expert and definitely do not have Tim experience with this, but it seem to me we are not trying to push more gas through the system, just to cool that same amount of gas better, so the compressor and evap. should be fine. No?

Carbonized
02-01-2019, 10:18 PM
MyToy, Your Van is a 2wd therefore the ac condenser is cooled by the mechanical engine fan pulling air through it. How does your guy propose to make the fan bigger?

timsrv
02-01-2019, 10:28 PM
I'm not an expert and definitely do not have Tim experience with this, but it seem to me we are not trying to push more gas through the system, just to cool that same amount of gas better, so the compressor and evap. should be fine. No?

Yes, I agree that a good efficient condenser with cool air moving past it is definitely the most important issue here. However, a properly engineered system is usually preferred over one that's been hacked and modified. Once you start making changes other unexpected things can happen (that was the point I was trying to make). If you find a way to retrofit a modern condenser/fan unit here (designed for R134A) I think you will see a marked improvement. Tim

Burntboot
02-01-2019, 11:03 PM
MT - I would have called BS on that explanation too, glad to know there are far more intelligent peeps around.

If the system's bits are now functioning as designed and there are no further leaks and you aren't bothered about warranties, then I would probably give the Redtek a chance.

Its easy and cheap and if it doesn't work, you can still re-engineer the system :)

Carbonized
02-01-2019, 11:07 PM
I totally get your point, but the hacking started with the switching gas and we are eternally going to be chasing the next weakest link :LOL2:

Andywear
05-28-2019, 12:17 PM
Its summer time again and wanted to top off my AC with R12.
Blows nice and cold when driving, not so much while setting still.

the first post has link to R12 for sale on ebay,
the last few posts in this thread talk about Redtek so searched it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RED-TEK-12a-Refrigerant-Replaces-R-12-Substitutes-134a-Runs-Colder-6-oz-Can/153132106036?epid=26024853930&hash=item23a7628134:g:iwIAAOSwKKBbTSoq:sc:USPSFirs tClass!74107!US!-1&frcectupt=true

I'm uncertain of how everyone says the R12 and R134 are not interchangeable and then we have bottles that say they are good replacements for both. :wall:
Even with the designation R12a R134a, doesnt make sense to me.


I could make a quick road trip.
https://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/pts/d/oklahoma-city-freon/6875745735.html

How is everyones Ac running the start of this summer?

timsrv
05-28-2019, 01:40 PM
If it blows cold when driving, that's about all you can expect. On these older systems, while sitting still you're not getting good air flow through the condenser, nor are you running the compressor at sufficient rpm, so it's not going to dump nearly as much heat (we all deal with that). If you put it in neutral and rev the engine above 2k RPM, then it should start working better, but it's really designed for doing it's job @ cruising speed with turbulent air (from moving) passing through the condenser. Personally, if it's cooling, I wouldn't "top off" unless I saw bubbles in the sight glass or I could see a pressure issue from a gauge set. Regarding other types of refrigerant, I've only used R-12, so I have no experience with the other stuff........perhaps one of the other guys will chime in.

So far (knock on wood), my AC has been working flawlessly since I reworked it in Aug of 2017 (as documented earlier in this thread). Good luck with yours :thmbup:. Tim

Andywear
06-02-2019, 06:51 PM
Took me this long to check my system, while sitting still, @2k RPM’s blows cool, no bubbles in sight glass, RPM’s @ 3K started to see bubbles in sight glass, which agrees with above statement. Gotta be at cruising speed to enjoy A/C the system will need to be circulating rapidly. Also means I’m not sufficiently low on R12.
Thanks Tim,
as that silly post that shows a generator and window unit on a car, I have now decided to try the air cooler, which looks to be a ice chest with a fan one it. Blows cool ice chest air. I have a over priced Yeti I can convert. These Sucklahoma summers can be very hot and muggy. And I travel with all 8 seats full and would like them to be comfortable.

https://youtu.be/ITtlxjvLQis

I’ll set it in the way way back, strap her down and run it off battery power, or the back seat cigarette lighter.

If if anyone is already doing this post up.

timsrv
06-03-2019, 12:06 AM
IMHO an ice based or 12V based cooler with a fan is a joke. There is no way you'll get the kind of BTU's needed to cool the interior of a van. Yes, I saw the guys thermometer with ~40° output temp, but he doesn't show ambient (inlet) air temp. I'm guessing he pulled that thermometer out of a fridge shortly before taking that video.

Flecker
07-08-2019, 11:17 PM
Just curious if anybody has gone this route???

I'd like to revamp my system and for this price it can't NOT be worth a try...

https://www.amazon.com/Enviro-Safe-R-134a-Refrigerant-Replacement-Repair/dp/B06Y5MNL1X/ref=pd_day0_hl_263_5/134-9358594-4697919?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B06Y5MNL1X&pd_rd_r=b384ce79-a1f7-11e9-9edd-f9a4489cb425&pd_rd_w=gXleG&pd_rd_wg=Ac4LA&pf_rd_p=ad07871c-e646-4161-82c7-5ed0d4c85b07&pf_rd_r=120T8DWXS93V2VR5H32G&psc=1&refRID=120T8DWXS93V2VR5H32G

Burntboot
07-09-2019, 06:51 AM
Looks to be along the same lines as the Redtek

Andywear
07-09-2019, 10:17 AM
Just curious if anybody has gone this route???

I'd like to revamp my system and for this price it can't NOT be worth a try...

https://www.amazon.com/Enviro-Safe-R-134a-Refrigerant-Replacement-Repair/dp/B06Y5MNL1X/ref=pd_day0_hl_263_5/134-9358594-4697919?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B06Y5MNL1X&pd_rd_r=b384ce79-a1f7-11e9-9edd-f9a4489cb425&pd_rd_w=gXleG&pd_rd_wg=Ac4LA&pf_rd_p=ad07871c-e646-4161-82c7-5ed0d4c85b07&pf_rd_r=120T8DWXS93V2VR5H32G&psc=1&refRID=120T8DWXS93V2VR5H32G


Interesting, its got 9 reviews and they are all good.
Go for it and post up.

Flecker
07-10-2019, 10:01 AM
Interesting, its got 9 reviews and they are all good.
Go for it and post up.

Already ordered... I'll guinea pig this one.

Flecker
07-13-2019, 02:15 AM
So I got the kit today... comes with 3 cans of r134a replacement with dye (says it can be used in R12 OR R134a system). Also comes with a can of proseal, in case of a leak I am assuming. And 2 cans of oil charge that says it's compatible with mineral, ester and pag oils. Lastly it comes with a fill hos/ gauge that fits on R12 systems low pressure port side... should be everything I need.

I won't be using the oil charge or proseal initially... I will just start with a can of the R134a "replacement" on the low pressure charge port and see where my pressure is. Kinda nice to have a dye present to make any leaks in the system obvious.

I did order a new fan clutch also because I have noticed my temp gauge starting to creep a wee bit above the halfway mark lately. When I went through the cooling system it's the one component that didn't get replaced, and after testing it the other day it's obviously tired and no longer functioning properly. So that will be a mandatory repair prior to fiddling with the A/C system. Don't want to press my luck and risk an overheat whilst getting the A/C dialed in. Will be a few more days before I can get to it, but will report back when I do!

My Van is a 4x4 so I had some fun locating the low pressure port and sight glass... lol. This is where I miss the pickup truck ease of A/C maintenance. lol, I never had to crawl under a rig to charge the A/C before.

Will post back with my results!

Flecker
07-14-2019, 10:37 PM
OK, Update time.

Replaced the fan clutch (That was fun). I'm not a tiny guy at 6'1 and fat fingers, so it was like the monkey and the football of course. :lol: Anyways, that SIGNIFICANTLY improved my cooling!
Added 2 cans of the envirotek and Wha-La! Running at a cool 53 degrees! just idling at 2k rpm's and the temp sat right in the center while sitting. Couldn't be happier, especially with the temp at 87* the whole time.

This was a :dance2::dance2: (two dancing banana) job with the A/C charge and the fan clutch...


One Question though, in looking at the chart based on temp/ pressure... I started at around 18 psi @ 85*. Finished the second can right around 30 psi @87... Seem right? The chart called for like 38 psi but I don't feel comfortable adding that much stress to the R12 system, so I'm guessing it was a happy compromise. Seem legit?

Edit: Took the Van for about a 45 minute drive around town and through the woods just to see how it's cooling (from both the A/C and the coolant temp) and it did REALLY well! The A/C gets the cab nice and cozy with the outside temps at roughly 90 today... bit of a heatwave blowing through my part of AZ this week. The temp gauge (however reliable that 32 year old mechanism is) was at the halfway mark with the A/C running full blast and mixed driving. Not to shabby! SO, in conclusion, I am guessing the envirosafe stuff is as adequate as the redtek and at a bit cheaper cost! Will be good to have A/C for this weekends camping adventure!

MyToy
04-19-2020, 06:47 AM
Greetings fellow Van Wagon people.

Hope all are well and keeping safe through this incredible time in our lives.

Moving to the next stage of restoration and that is the AC.
This has been an on going WIP (Work In Progress) for over a year now. The monkeys that worked on the van just continually screw it up and I end up fixing it myself. So now I am going for the AC.

They installed a new compressor, dryer and evaporator. The temp never got below 75 coming out of the vents. Then in a week she lost pressure and compressor turned off. Upon examination a yellow type of fluid was dripping off the compressor, like a lot of it. So needless to say the AC is down. This is the third compressor they put in and it is to going back there any more. I am not sure of the anatomy of the compressor as to where the yellow fuid could come out of. My guess it is AC oil. So my thought is to clean the compressors outside case as much as possible and charge the system with 134 and dye. It will only last a week at best but it should show me where the leak is in more detail.
Should I add more oil or should I just charge it with the can and do the leak tests.

I will no doubt use the eviro-safe product after I find the leak. Then fine tune the system after she is stable.

So question are:
Should I add more oil?
Should I just replace the new compressor?
Is there any area around the compressor to look closer at when the stuff starts leaking out again?

Thanks to all and please stay safe.

MT

timsrv
04-19-2020, 09:03 AM
Hi MT, all my vans are still R-12, so I won't be much help regarding anything else. I too went through a compressor in a short period of time until I got a Denso rebuild (actually rebuilt by Denso). Prior to that I had gotten a rebuilt Denso, but it was rebuilt by another company and only lasted 3 years. So far my genuine Denso compessor has lasted almost 3 years and is still blowing nice and cold (knock on wood).

If you can already identify the compressor is leaking, I would recommend just replacing it with the Denso (rebuilt by Denso). I have a write-up on the basic job starting with post #71 in this thread. Since yours is already converted to the modern Freon, I would get a gauge set for the type of Freon you select along with a chart that shows desired pressures. I would also highly recommend a deep vacuum to the system to suck out all the old garbage before recharging. Good luck! Tim

MyToy
04-20-2020, 05:59 AM
Rocket Fuel Tim!!!

I will find my leak and get the Denso. Now that it has been 3 years, any thoughts on the kind of oil is in there, 6 or 8? Or should I just use this universal Ester Oil I have seen used?

This should be an experience.:cnfsd: But so far each challenge has been rectified with TVT!

MT

timsrv
04-20-2020, 03:54 PM
Good question on type of oil that's in there. I could find no information as to the type. Since R-12 is obsolete, I would have to assume it's whatever they recommend for R-134 (probably 8). Still, I would recommend draining and replacing with whatever is recommended for the type Freon you choose. To drain just remove the shipping plate and turn it upside down in a drain pan for an hr or so. I would change positions and rotate the pulley at 15 min intervals. I wouldn't recommend flushing with anything, just get as much out as you can, add the new stuff to the compressor (like I did in post #71), pull a deep vacuum for 1/2 hr or so, then add the rest of the oil & the Freon through the charge port.

FWIW, I got my scale at Harbor Freight and it was inexpensive. It is impressively accurate to boot! You can also purchase the big bottles of Freon easily as long as it's not R-12. I recently purchased a 15 lb bottle of R-134 + a gauge set off of eBay at a reasonable price in case my wife's car or my motorhome ever need a recharge. If you don't have a scale or a big bottle of Freon, you can simply add by the can, just use the weight/volume info on the can to calculate. BTW, a lot of Freon sold by the can includes oil and/or die (by ratio), so be sure you know what you're putting in before adding extra oil or die. Since the manual calls out R-12, I'd recommend using a conversion chart to compare weights and pressures, then calculate using the FSM as your guide. Good luck! Tim

MyToy
04-21-2020, 05:35 AM
Roger That Tim:

I think I will take this one slow. I will first give it a small charge of 134 and dye after I clean up the compressor so I can have a better look with the UV light as it leaks. The liquid that came out of it was a yellowish substance. You think that may be the oil in the compressor?

Since there is nothing in the system currently, a full suck down is required after I replace the compressor if that is what is leaking. So that means that it will need, according to the service manual, about 3 lbs of 134 but the oil is funny. It shows so much if you replace the compressor, then so much if you replace the condenser, then so much if you replace the dryer. If I suck it down will there not be anything in it? In that case for my 2wd twin system air and no refrigerator how to I find out how much oil in total to put in? Don't want to screw that up for sure.

MT

timsrv
04-21-2020, 01:52 PM
Yeah, oil is always a calculated guess. Just because you pull a deep vacuum doesn't mean all the oil will be removed, it depends on where the oil is. As the system is being evacuated most of the oil in the lines and condenser will be removed, it is however unlikely oil in the compressor will be sucked out. Once full vacuum is reached whatever oil remains will stay where it's at.......unless there's a leak. If there's a leak there will be a constant flow between the leak source and the vacuum pump. Any oil between the leak and the vacuum pump will likely be evacuated. Tim

MyToy
04-22-2020, 04:41 AM
OK, will give it a shot. Thanks.

Will keep you posted

MT

MyToy
04-26-2020, 06:40 AM
OK, started my adventure with getting the AC working.

I cleaned off the new compressor that was installed so if it did leak I would get a current picture of UV dye.
I charged it from the low pressure side under the front of the van just under the evaporator. This is where they changed the fitting to a 134 fitting. I put the can on and gave it a hit and was able to increase the pressure from almost nothing to 17lb. No compressor at that time. So I ran up on top to see if all was ok and increase idle a tad and the compressor turned on.:rol:
It stays on until I shut it the AC off and will not come back until I increase idle again. So that is that. I have the potentiometer on the AC amplifier set for the lowest compressor turn on idle so it is not that. So I thought maybe it just needs more pressure. I stopped there to ask before I did something wrong.

But here is an interesting point.
In the manual they show two points, and high pressure valve and a low pressure valve.
Again, the low pressure is near the evaporator and the high pressure is just off the back side of the condenser with the electric fan on it. Well that high pressure one had no 134 adaptor!. Further investigation I took a look at the rear evaporator and I find another fitting in their with a 134 adaptor on it.
The manual shows just two fittings not three. And why is there no 134 fitting on the high side? Do you think these clowns never used a two gauge charge system and just shot 134 into the low pressure? And what the hell is the one on the rear evaporator for?

One more thing. When the AC came on I was expecting that the idle would have gone up from the idle up diaphragm, the one with the plastic adjuster on it. Come to find out that the adjuster is working with or without the VSV on or off. I check the VSV and it seems to be OK. Isn't the idle up diaphragm only suppose to work with the AC is on? What controls this, suction from the diaphragm hose?
I added pics of the charge ports.

stuartgipson
04-26-2020, 01:59 PM
I just thought I'd chime in on using Hydrocarbon/Propane based refrigerants such as Enviro-Safe and RedTek. I've used them in half a dozen or so vehicles I've had over the last 20 years for an R12 replacement. It works very well, but you need to make sure you don't overcharge your system with it. It only requires about 1/3 the weight of R12 and unlike R12 you don't wan't to charge your system until the sight glass is clear. If it's clear then you are overcharged. There is info here: https://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/108/t/refrigerant/

Stuart

VanCo
04-26-2020, 02:07 PM
:whs:

Works so much better than messing around with r134a conversations.

MyToy
04-27-2020, 05:25 AM
Yes, I have every intention to change over to Eviro-Safe. Have to get this thing working first.

Thanks for the encouragement !

MyToy
04-29-2020, 04:09 PM
Been doing more digging and still there is no sign of anyone knowing why I have 3 AC ports. The low in the front near the evaporator is one, the I assume high side is on the condenser with the electric fan and only god knows what they used the one on the rear evaporator for.

Any ideas please chime in.

Thanks!

MT

timsrv
04-29-2020, 04:42 PM
Yeah, it's not uncommon for there to be multiples. Sometimes you'll also find them on the compressor and on the dryer. I guess they could be helpful for doing a super thorough evacuation, but personally I just ignore them. Just use the ones under the front of the van. The one on the big line is low side and the one on the small line is the high side. Even though your dryer is new-ish I would recommend replacing that too......especially if you replace your compressor and/or change types of Freon. Tim

MyToy
04-30-2020, 04:53 AM
Thanks Tim:

OK, I will not bother with the one on the rear evaporator. The high pressure down under next to the electric fan has no 134 fitting but the one coming out of the front evaporator does. Do you think these clowns just use the low side charge? The van by the way went to 3 different AC repair firms here in Daytona.

I still have not figure out the idle up diaphragm issue. The control works fine but works all the time even when the AC is off. I checked the VSV and it seems to be OK. How does the diaphragm work? Does it use suction to turn it off an on from the VSV?
This had worked perfect before, go figure.

Thanks again

MT

MyToy
04-30-2020, 07:16 AM
More to the previous thread:

The diaphragms plastic control controls the idle but it does it both with the AC on or Off. This of course screws up my normal idle.

MT

timsrv
04-30-2020, 03:13 PM
Read the upper left hand corner of the diagram below.

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1268

For whatever reason, on my 86 van, the idle-up did not activate when my AC compressor came on. Rather than spend time troubleshooting, I just ran a jumper wire between my compressor clutch wire and the idle-up VSV wire. Now whenever my compressor kicks in, so does that VSV, which in turn activates the idle-up diaphragm, and my idle speed increases to compensate for the compressor load. The idle-up diaphragm is adjusted while the AC compressor is on and I set mine to be a little higher than normal idle speed so it satisfies my AC amplifier's lowest setting. This way my compressor will stay running when I come to a stop light. Tim

MyToy
05-01-2020, 05:12 AM
Tim:

Yes I can see where that would be an alternative trigger to turn on that VSV. Fortunately my system turns on the VSV normally. My problem is the what the diaphragm is doing. I did the same thing you did about a year ago. I set the diaphragm control so the rpm was a tad high when the AC came on. But now the diaphragm is active all the time. Whether I on the diaphragm VSV on or off the diaphragm Control still functions. So I cannot separate its idle adjustment from the normal idle of the engine.

I need to figure out how this diaphragm turns on an off. I checked the VSV by way of the test they show in the manual but I don't see anything there for the diaphragm. Do you have any history on the diagram?

MT

timsrv
05-01-2020, 12:53 PM
If the VSV is working (engaging/disengaging and allowing/disallowing flow) but the idle speed does not increase/decrease, then it sounds like the idle-up diaphragm is messed up. Tim

MyToy
05-06-2020, 05:30 AM
Well, I will have to put this one aside for a bit. I ran into some differential issues. Got a whirling noise coming from the entrance of the yoke into the meatball.
So will have to come back to this.

I will jump up in a thread that has history on this and go from there. Thanks again.

MT

MyToy
05-10-2020, 11:12 AM
OK, while waiting for rear end parts I am jumping back on the air.

I pumped upped the system with UV dye and Freon and found a major leak on the seam between the compressor and the plate that connectors to both high and low pressure hose. The my 89 FSM shows a gasket and my 87 shows o rings.t Rock autos looks like it offers both but the 89 has an extra chamber or something due to the gasket picture the Rock autos is just square. Of course this compressor has been replaced three times with the same make. So the big question is which o ring set to get.
Attached are pics of the differences.
The amount of dye was so much it literally drips off the bottom of the compressor assembly. Then of course there are drips on the corners of the plate.

I would have thought that these jerks who put this in would have seen something so obvious. Anyone have any experience with this type of leak and the kind of seal that is used.
I did not split the plate yet in case I had to leave it exposed to atmosphere while I waited for the seals. If I have to literally go in and see what I have should I just throw something in the high and low pressure holes till the part arrives?

Better yet if somebody has seen this kind of leak before.


Thanks to all

MT

timsrv
05-11-2020, 06:58 AM
It almost has to be o-rings. When I did mine I ordered 2 different sets because they were cheap and I didn't want to come up short. If I thought there was a possibility of a gasket I would have ordered that too. After the job was done I had lots left over, but that was fine. Tim

MyToy
05-11-2020, 07:31 AM
Thanks Tim:

Any idea why this continues to leak? Since the compressor has been changed 3 times my suspect may be the plate itself. Is there anything I should look closer at when putting new O rings in?

timsrv
05-11-2020, 02:38 PM
Check to make sure the bolts are tight, then check the mating surfaces for damage (scratches, cracks, bumps, foreign material, etc). I'd also use a straight edge to verify these surfaces are not warped. Look closely at the old o-rings to see if they got misaligned and/or pinched. If that happened part of the o-ring would be smashed or there would be an irregular flat spot. Check them carefully for nicks or cuts too.

When you put it back together, use some compressor oil on the new o-rings as this will help hold them in place and also help them squeeze out correctly when pressure is applied. And as always, other than oil, make sure these surfaces are spotlessly clean when going back together. Tim

MyToy
05-11-2020, 03:42 PM
Roger that!

MT

MyToy
05-11-2020, 03:43 PM
OH! One more thing. Do you have a preferred O ring make or firm to get them?

At least before I order the Rock Auto ones.
Thanks again

MT

timsrv
05-12-2020, 12:13 AM
If you get a new or rebuilt Denso compressor, I believe it will come with new o-rings, and I'd probably trust the Denso ones over anything aftermarket. If I recall correctly, I got 2 different sets (different brands) off of Rockauto.com too. It's been too long to remember which brands I got and/or if I got a stronger feeling of quality for one over the other. I'm guessing parts like these don't matter much, but I like Denso or OE Toyota parts if/when available. Tim

MyToy
05-12-2020, 05:06 AM
Thanks for the input Tim.

Will keep you posted.

MT

MyToy
05-15-2020, 05:39 AM
Well, I have stupid question:

When I look at my can of 134 freon it says to shake and turn upside down when filling turning can from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock . Well according to the FSM it says to charge the low side with the refrigerant in a vapor state not a liquid state meaning to not invert the can.

Was R12 different back in the day and 134 is different, hmmm don't think so.

Any comments?

MT

MyToy
05-15-2020, 01:14 PM
Sorry people. I just got another can of this stuff at Avanced Auto and it says what my FSM says. So all OK.

MT

timsrv
05-15-2020, 02:39 PM
If the system has a vacuum, with the can upside down it will suck the full charge of Freon/oil without even starting or engaging the compressor. After it sucks the Freon, although probably not necessary, I like to let it sit for ~ ½ hr (before starting) to allow vapor/liquid to migrate into the appropriate locations. Tim

MyToy
05-15-2020, 02:48 PM
Good idea. I am assuming that is done on the low side, right?

I will start tomorrow

Thanks Tim

timsrv
05-15-2020, 02:59 PM
Yes, low side.

MyToy
05-24-2020, 05:16 AM
As usually NOTHING goes well for me it seems. I am now questioning my next oil change.:dizzy:

The saga of the AC continues. Upon removing the compressor we discover that the idiots that changed this out last year not only put the bolts in so tight a breaker bar was needed to break them loose. But one of the bolts were already rounded. No way is this puppy going to come out. So we had grind the entire head off to slip the compressor off.

After removal we carefully corked the low and high side lines then proceeded to remove the top section of the compressor where the low and high side connections are. Well it was not what I expected. You were right Tim, when I took off the plate they used 4 O rings but the top plate was a two piece part. Looking really close with a UV light we could see yellow in the crack of the two parts. We split this and found more O rings. One rectangle and one oval, none of which was in the O ring kit.
Do you know if this is something special from Toyota? I tried looking at dealer sites and could find nothing like this.
Attached pics.:no:

timsrv
05-24-2020, 07:27 AM
Looking at your pics helps me remember when I did the job. I think in the end I checked and re-used the rectangular o-rings, then used the round ones Denso supplied with the compressor??? Sorry but it's been too long and my memory isn't the greatest when it comes to small details like this. FWIW, it's okay to reuse o-rings as long as they are undamaged and they are not permanently squished down flat. Just make sure there's some "squish down" force required to mate the metal parts during re-assembly. Re-using soft parts like this is not the ideal thing to do but sometimes there isn't much choice. I tried to look this up in the EPC but unfortunately Toyota does not list the individual seals/o-rings. They do however list a part number for an entire o-ring/seal kit (most likely contains all the "soft" parts inside the compressor). I'm not completely sure it would contain these rectangular o-rings, but I'm guessing it would. It's Toyota part #88335-12030 (https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~gasket~kit~overhaul~88335-12030.html) and lists for $46.49 on www.toyotapartsdeal.com.

I was curious to see the crack but when looking at your pics I didn't see it. I definitely would not advise re-using any part that was cracked. It's sad that some shops can't be trusted to use common sense when working on things. FWIW, I'm getting tired of working on cars and would like to just pay somebody to do it for me, but sadly, due to these type of experiences, I don't trust anybody else to do it right. Good luck. Tim

MyToy
05-24-2020, 08:23 AM
I must have worded this wrong. There is no crack. However there was a crack or seam in the housing that I split and is where these two other o rings were found. This looked like where the leak was coming from. The other O rings in the replacement kit but not these. I am really not sure that this Toyota one is the one either. I may have to go to my local dealer and see if they can help me. So I don't think it is wise for me to re-use these.

What else is new!:wall:

Thanks for the response buddy.
I attached a break out of the unit and where the seam is. But it does not show it here. This is an 87 manual and not an 86. I just wonder if there would be differences.

Peace and have a great holiday weekend.

MT

timsrv
05-24-2020, 04:54 PM
Okay, I saw the word "crack" and assumed you meant a part was cracked. As I'm sure you've already figured out, the only thing making the seal in this area is uniform compression of undamaged o-rings, so if the leak was coming from there I would check very carefully. I would definitely want to find a "smoking gun" before reassembling, or you may be doomed to repeat failure. Wet down each o-ring with oil and pull it through your fingers while feeling the periphery for imperfections. Lightly put pressure with your thumbnail while pulling it along to make sure there's no nicks or cuts. I would also mate these parts without the o-rings to insure they make an intimate fit (no gaps or rocking). Next I would thread each bolt into the compressor until they bottom out and measure the distance between the compressor surface and the bolt head (should be less that the combined thickness of the plates). If not, it's possible the bolts are too long and bottoming out before they compress the plates/o-rings. Tim

MyToy
05-25-2020, 05:02 AM
OK, I will give that a whirl. I did check the plates on glass and 200 grit emery. They look flat with no high marks.

I did look at the o rings a bit , but not that detailed for sure. What I did notice was the smaller of the two rubber it self was not round, but square for flat. The other one looks round. Not sure if that has anything to do with it.

I searched all over for the parts but found none. The kit you found could have them but I seem to remember I saw this kit once before and it did not have these. I this the square one with the partition on one side but not these.

I think I will run down to Toyota's parts department and bring it all with me to see if they can help me also.

Will keep you posted
Thanks again for all the advice
MT

timsrv
05-25-2020, 05:50 AM
I checked all over for those too and found nothing. You can use round o-rings here, as long as the diameter of the rubber is correct and the overall length is right for the groove. The real advantage for having them formed to match the groove is it's much easier to keep them in place during assembly. Round ones will want to "pop-out" of the grooves, but you may be able to hold them in place with a thick grease. Tim

MyToy
05-26-2020, 11:33 AM
Oh, never even went there!

OK, I have a set of generic O rings of all walks of life. Just wondered if the freon would react funny with them.

But great idea Tim.

Will keep you posted

MT

timsrv
05-26-2020, 01:39 PM
I don't like taking chances with things like this, but, if you're up against the wall it's not like you have a choice. I would think even the garden variety o-rings are made of materials to resist Freon and the oil. Even if they're not, they are trapped/contained, so swelling would only intensify their ability to seal. Tim

Carbonized
05-26-2020, 06:39 PM
Oh, never even went there!

OK, I have a set of generic O rings of all walks of life. Just wondered if the freon would react funny with them.

But great idea Tim.

Will keep you posted

MT

Man, if you have one, never mind two, regular O rings that match the length of those two guys, RUN! don't walk, to the nearest FL Lottery tickets vendor :roflmao:

timsrv
05-27-2020, 02:26 AM
FWIW, they make almost every possible combination of diameter and rubber thickness o-rings. In the rare case they actually don't make the size you need, you can get custom sizes made for under $10 each.

Here's a couple links to McMaster-Carr:

https://www.mcmaster.com/o-rings/oil-resistant-buna-n-o-rings-8/

https://www.mcmaster.com/o-rings/made-to-order-oil-resistant-buna-n-o-rings/

MyToy
05-31-2020, 05:37 AM
Thanks Tim:

I did not realize that Mac had these. It seems the one I need is a about .10 in when measuring the old rings. Mac closets is .103. The depth of the channel is .07 and the width is .112.
So this may work. Only question is how would I find an accurate diameter to order by? I could cut the ones I have and measure their circumference but that would now destroy them.

Here is another idea one parts store had. He said that there is an auto AC repair shop not to far away that makes their own O rings. He told me they bump into this all the time so they just make them.

My thought is to go there Monday and see if in fact this is true. I would think they may have to material and skill set to do this.

The last thought is to make them my self. There are several kits on the market that have assorted cord stock and tools to cut and splice. Here is one I found on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07L9CYNPM?pf_rd_r=6ZTDR2A51MXJXWM5RXDQ&pf_rd_p=edaba0ee-c2fe-4124-9f5d-b31d6b1bfbee

I am thinking to go to the AC guys first, then attempt a Mac product, then try my own.

MT

timsrv
05-31-2020, 06:08 AM
Sounds like a good plan. Tim

MyToy
06-02-2020, 05:04 AM
Talked to the AC guys yesterday and they believe they may have them in stock.

Not sure but I am going there today to show them what I have.

One side note for you.

When I removed the compressor, which was working before I pulled it out, had no oil in it.
So now when I put it back together how much oil should I put in the compressor?
I also have some dye to put in there also. Can I just throw both of them in and seal it up?

Next question is when I evacuate it will that pull all of this stuff out?

Just trying to be ready for this should I get to put it all back together on Sat.

MT

timsrv
06-02-2020, 01:41 PM
How I would do it is not necessarily the recommended way, so proceed at own risk :lol:. According to the manual there should be a total of 2 - 3.4 fl oz of oil in the system. If the compressor is dry, I'd put 2 fl oz directly into the compressor inlet, then I'd seal the system and pull a deep vacuum for a minimum of 15 minutes (I personally like to go 30 - 45 min). After that, before hooking up your gauge set, use the the vacuum in the system to suck up another oz of oil. If you want to add die, I'd do it the same way at this time. After that, hook up your gauge set. There should be enough vacuum there to suck up the full charge of Freon also without even starting the engine. If you do it this way, make sure the can(s) are upside down so it can suck liquid. Tim

PS: It's possible a deep vacuum might suck some of the oil out of the compressor, but it's hard to imagine it sucking a significant amount all the way from inside there and out of the system. Once a deep vacuum is achieved, unless you have a leak, the flow stops. When you pull the vacuum, you should be able to monitor how much oil comes out, but I suspect most of it will be the old stuff that's in the condenser and evaporator cores. I like absolutes, but unfortunately there's always a bit of guess work when it comes to charging AC systems. FWIW, Since recharging mine (post #71) my AC has been working awesome (knock on wood). Tim

MyToy
06-03-2020, 03:09 PM
OK, got it.
Came up short on the O rings. The firm did not make any but were helpful in trying to find them. They referred me to a firm that rebuilds compressors not to far from here. This guy has been around for about 30 years doing this kind of work. So I gave him a call and was very impressed on his knowledge and resources. I will drive down in the morning with all my goodies to see what he says.

He did tell me one thing that I was not aware of. He said that since this is the 3rd time this has happened and has leaked out of the manifold it is more likely that the issue stems from the expansion valve. The idiot who did the work and replaced the evaporator failed to replace the expansion valve even though I asked him to. He said that should this valve close down and stay down the pressure in the system will rise and will blow refrigerant out the O rings. He suggest that the expansion valve be replaced at the same time.

Will keep you posted.

I hate you, you don't even live in Florida and you have air and I don't!:wall:

timsrv
06-03-2020, 03:32 PM
That's interesting what he said about the expansion valve. I have yet to see this particular expansion valve fail, but I'm sure it happens.........especially in places like Flor-i-duh :doh: :lol:. I had experienced expansion valve failure on the Previa (the originals were junk). The symptoms would be a good working AC for the 1st 5 minutes or so, then nothing but warm air. I never saw them blow seals or 0-rings, but the compressor hook-ups were different and likely better than they are on the van. If nothing else, at least that gives you a plausible reason why it happened and perhaps save you from repeating that again. Good luck! Tim

MyToy
06-05-2020, 09:27 AM
Just a report on my trip to this compressor firm.

Well what an eye opener. This place is unbelievable with compressors on racks as far as you can see.
He was super to work and talk with. He saw the compressor and knew in one micro second what it was and what it was for. Come to find out there really are that many different types, just in the manifold they come with to match the mounting and hose couplings.
He then gave a a short lesson on AC with big glossy pictures to follow and a 40 page document that he wrote on everything there is to know about compressors and AC systems for cars. This guy was unbelievable.
All that being said he could not come up with these o rings. He had thousands of packets of new o rings and those were just not around. Then he pulled out a box of manifolds for compressors. There were all types and all of them fit the compressor I had.

So we found the best match for the van and will modify the system accordingly removing the old manifold and putting one in that is far more reliable and easier to install.

I attached pics of the old one viewed with both pieces and the replacement I will install. High Pressure fitting has to be reversed but otherwise should fit right in with no other O rings.
Check this out.

This is the guy for your AC for sure. Here is his web site http://mobileclimateparts.com
His name is Michael.

timsrv
06-05-2020, 03:00 PM
That's awesome you're getting it figured out. When you get a chance, please post part numbers of the new parts. Also, the pics of the new manifold parts didn't come through. I'd be interested in seeing those. Thanks for the detailed documentation. Tim

MyToy
06-06-2020, 05:55 AM
Ooops, thought I send them all.

Part Number on the replacement is 10P17. Not sure if that even helps.

These are not Toyota parts. That is what was so interesting. Everyone uses the same parts. He had tons of these in all shapes and sizes.

MyToy
06-06-2020, 06:24 AM
Hey Tim:

He did mention one other thing. After he gave me his 30 min tutorial on AC, he explained how the expansion valve worked and told me that the pressure differential is different between R12 and R134. Anytime you change over this should be changed to a 134 expansion valve. Every hear of that?

I checked Rock Auto and found only one out of the lot from Delco that spec R134A only.
I think I will bite the bullet and get this since the expansion valve is the original in the van for both front and rear. I think they are the same. There is no mention in Rock on this. It looks like a real PITA getting that front evaporator out.:no:

He also told me that in most of them there is an adj screw in side the diaphragm that can be adjusted also.

The last test was the condenser and he told me to know real quick if it is good or not just put a garden hose on it and check your cooling. This will tell you if the condenser is limiting the cooling. There should be between 30 and 50 degF between the input of the condenser and the output.

MT

MyToy
06-06-2020, 06:25 AM
Forgot, here is the Rock Auto part.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=339781&cc=1279751&jsn=397

timsrv
06-06-2020, 02:28 PM
Anytime you change over this should be changed to a 134 expansion valve. Every hear of that?


FYI, I'm old school. I quit working for Toyota back about the time they outlawed R-12, so I know nothing about conversions other than I don't want to go there. Doesn't surprise me though. Since the system was designed around R-12 I wouldn't expect all things to operate/function correctly after a conversion. Tim

MyToy
06-14-2020, 05:55 AM
OK, begun the removal of the evaporator and did not get far. Could not find much on TVT.

I could not get the damn thing out!
FSM does not tell much.

I removed all the bolts, nuts, and screws as per the manual but it seems to be held in some how. The High and low pressure hose connections are disconnected from the bottom. I removed the case clips on the front and that at least allowed the case to be separated a little.

Is there some trick in getting this thing out?:dizzy:

timsrv
06-14-2020, 02:28 PM
I've never had to replace an expansion valve on a van before.............so I've never done that. Hopefully somebody else here has and will know the secret. The hardest thing I've done is replaced the fan motor (3 or 4 times now)........and that was a PITA every time. Tim

MyToy
06-24-2020, 01:54 PM
New up date on this. I finally was able to remove the evaporator. It requires removal of fuse box. There is a cable mount that keeps the evaporator assembly from coming out.

So I am on my way again except for one issue. The fittings that attach to the compressor will not fit.

The old compressor has these fittings mounted opposite each other. The new manifold has them going the same direction. So the high pressure tube hits the low.
I have to reverse the low pressure tube.

My hydraulic shop told me the only way he could make this work is with a new fitting or with an adaptor.


I checked around and found fittings like this but not sure if they will fit.

I have attached a pic of the old high pressure hose and fitting with a 1 bolt mount. I found one similar to this that adapts the entry from the side to the top. I am just not sure if they are the same. Is there a name to the fitting we have? This one from Summit is one that looks similar. This other one is from Vintage Air and it looks similar. They both have numbers to them. Any thoughts on this?

MT

timsrv
06-24-2020, 02:51 PM
Yeah, I had some concerns about that when I saw the picture of your updated manifold, but didn't want to be a pessimist. I'm sorry to hear about that. You are blazing a new trail with manifold/line combinations so I can't help you. Have you talked to the guy you got the manifold from? Maybe you could take your old hoses and both manifolds to him and maybe he can find some hoses that will be compatible with the new angles and have the same type fittings on each end??? Good luck. Tim

MyToy
07-20-2020, 06:39 AM
Hey folks:

Back on line with this again. Got pulled away with business and covid crap.

I was finally able to remove the evaporator to find that the expansion valves output fitting came off with my fingers. Just more crap keeps coming to the surface. I have some pics here. As for the the manifold fitting, I was able to talk to the guy I met and he was very helpful in getting me a fitting that could be welded on to the high pressure connection to the compressor. With that my welder friend will cut it off and make it fit correctly.

I did run into an interesting issue however. After I mounted the compressor back on I corked up the ports so they would not get dirty. No power was applied so the clutch solenoid was not connected.


I had finished for the day and started the van. Still running like a top. Then all of a sudden I hear this slight chirp come out of the engine somewhere. It almost sounded like a belt or pully from the compressor. It got continually worse the longer I ran it. So I shut it down and started it again with the same noise. Waited a week to get back to working on it and started it and no noise. Until she got warm, then it came back. I also noticed that when I shut the engine down the noise did not stop with at the same time the engine did. It has a slight delay with a weeeeeep kind of sound. I decided to start it up and remove the radiator cap to see if maybe it was pressure, then I did the same for the oil. Bang, that was it, when the oil cap is loosened the noise goes a way. I then removed the vent pipe to the fuel mixture unit and it went away but ran like crap.

Any thoughts or point me in the direction in TVC where I should post this one? Engine was only used for 10 minutes between this time period.

MT

cornell
07-24-2020, 03:20 PM
Not sure if this is the best place to post this, please move to appropriate thread or delete if necessary.

This spring I removed my rear HVAC (ac + heater) and made space for a little solar power setup. It works great.

However, I'm getting my AC serviced right now at a shop in SF. I've never had working AC and my wife and road trip a lot, so we're looking into getting some cold air blowing. Since the removal of the rear unit, they have capped the lines to the rear unit and replaced appropriate parts: new Denso compressor, Denso evap/drier, Denso expansion valve. The problem they're having is that the compressor clutch will not disengage. From my understanding it's in a constantly running state which would obviously not only do undo strain on the engine but ruin the compressor if engaged all the time.

I'm wondering if the removal of the rear unit would have anything to do that, or if it's an electrical problem of some kind. I've looked into the wiring diagram in the FSM (a/t with rear conditioner), and I dont think that unhooking the rear unit would have any effect on the proper functioning of the compressor, but I could be wrong. I'm coming here for advice or input as to what could cause this and potential solutions.

Thanks.

UPDATE:

Never mind. It has been sorted out.

89TownAce
08-25-2020, 09:14 PM
Can anyone tell me where the compressor ground wire attaches to the van frame?

I cannot trace the wire and I have an intermittent ground issue.

I'm hoping the location is accessible so I can clean up the connection.

MyToy
08-27-2020, 06:07 AM
For what it is worth, I have completely removed the entire AC system in my 86 van. There were no ground cables attached to the compressor. I am sure it is getting its ground from the engine and chassis.

mt

Burntboot
08-27-2020, 09:54 AM
As a general rule, Japanese cars mostly put switches and relays on the negative side of a circuit.
Ground points are used, but they are collected and ganged (LF footwell, RF footwell.....) and should be "after" the switch.
Best to follow the wiring diagram.

timsrv
08-27-2020, 12:59 PM
Battery negative cable connects to frame and then to DS motor mount bracket. Since engine is conductive, it supplies ground through the compressor mount (no ground wire). Tim

Jumajunkie
09-13-2020, 10:07 PM
Ok so I've been having this issue for a while. I'm on my second compressor and don't know what the issue is.

Basically the guy installed a new compressor, charged the system and ran for a few mins then stopped working. It turns on, engages and then stops. Turns on and stops again. Not working anymore. I don't know wtf the issue may be.

It worked while he installed and tested. I drove for maybe 20-30 mins and now seems to turn on for about a second. Sometimes turns on again for another second and stops.

Oh...I'll make another post but. My van has a new engine and overheats. I've checked everything and no luck. Ugh.

MyToy
09-16-2020, 09:26 AM
For sure you have some issues on top of the AC. There are tons of areas in the forum that can provide trouble shooting for over heating. Check those out. I had the same problem but the process to trouble shoot was a bit out of the box.

As for your compression, it most likely is low in refrigerant. Maybe put a gauge on the low side to see if there is any pressure in there.
This clutch is controlled by the AC computer located behind the glove box. Mine went bad but it was like dead, it did not come on then off. I have replaced it and it worked the last time I used it.
I am just finishing rebuilding the entire AC system. So I have to reached to the point of filler her back up with refrigerant
So we shall see how it goes. Check that pressure!

mt

timsrv
09-19-2020, 07:29 PM
Check that pressure!

mt

:whs: There's no way to know what's going on if you don't check pressures. If you don't already have a factory service manual and a gauge set, if you plan on keeping the van you need these things. The service manual has a comprehensive AC section with a troubleshooting chart (based on pressures). Of course it's for R12, so if it's been converted that changes the values a bit. If you get a gauge set, be sure to get one for the type of Freon your system uses.

Andywear
07-09-2021, 01:38 PM
Back to trying my go at the R12 refill.
re-read all 10 pages specifically on the R12/R12a refill.

found the refills on ebay.
1 can, 1 refill hose. $35 https://www.ebay.com/itm/274338335831
(or possibly this stuff; https://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/1003/t/arctic-air-for-r12-systems-canscase/related/true/details.asp)

but no gauge to verify PSI before or after refilling system,
so found gauge
hi/lo and refill port $31 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0156FXTC4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2N2PCJRUJNIQR&psc=1
unfortunately it only says in extended description "R134a Adpater: 1/4" male" So what size is the R-12 fittings?



So if I read all correctly, steps for a van with R-12 (pre-1994 year models) only to refill, *not empty system and refill or replace parts or convert to other Freon*
check to make sure your compressor is kicking on.
It may not kick on because it's low on R-12.
hook up the gauge to the system, to see what the pressure is at.
if low on R-12 add R-12 to the low side inlet, will take time to build pressure so the compressor will kick on. Or put 12volts to compressor and it will kick on to cycle faster the R-12 you are trying to refill.
turn on front and rear AC during thr re-fill of R-12.
do not over pressure.
profit?

if that is mildly correct perhaps make a sticky? and or delete if its so bad of directions and start fresh.

Vandiwear-


..... Just use the ones under the front of the van. The one on the big line is low side and the one on the small line is the high side. ...... Tim

I grabbed your quote tim because, on the front of my van ('93JDM) where the sight glass is, I only have one port there. I'm guessing there are more ports found throughout the lines but would that be the refill port on this system since it is right at the sight glass?

11161

thepuzzlemaster
07-09-2021, 03:43 PM
That red cap is the high side. The low side is more towards the front of the vehicle, and on a larger diameter tubing. On my vehicle, it had a black cap. I can post a photo if you don't see it.


I just went through some of this myself.
https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?7897-Question-about-diagnosing-AC-system

My manifold gauge just arrived, but they sent the wrong adapters, so I'm waiting for the new ones to arrive, which should be today!

Andywear
08-06-2021, 11:28 AM
That red cap is the high side. The low side is more towards the front of the vehicle, and on a larger diameter tubing. On my vehicle, it had a black cap. I can post a photo if you don't see it.


Yeah If you don't mind, Ive crawled under 3 times with a flash light and cant find a black cap with larger size tubing, it wouldn't be covered in insulation type foam, right?

Jean-Claude Van-chan
08-08-2021, 03:04 PM
Yeah If you don't mind, Ive crawled under 3 times with a flash light and cant find a black cap with larger size tubing, it wouldn't be covered in insulation type foam, right?
The lo-side cap (black) can be in different places depending on OEM specs.
For example, on my '91 2wd jdm it's behind and on the left side of the left front wheel near the fan shroud.
On my '91 4wd jdm it's behind the driver's seat (righthand side seat) under the smaller of two removable covers secured by a wingnut. In this van I have had to hang the manifold inside the car, running the hoses through the engine bay and maintenance window.
Good luck

BTW, this thread has really helped to expand my understanding:dance2:Thank you!

thepuzzlemaster
08-10-2021, 01:09 PM
Yeah If you don't mind, Ive crawled under 3 times with a flash light and cant find a black cap with larger size tubing, it wouldn't be covered in insulation type foam, right?

Sorry, I was out of town over the weekend. Here's where it is on my van. I have an R134 adapter on mine, so it's a blue cap, but it was black and significantly smaller (the cap) before I put the adapter on it.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BFr9D3noRoWs955O3bDrFo7BWZbAkCyRLoQ0S6YbtDv7h3GUCc KSG4c08irXuWh8938PJZKEOXRBGzHuq1jLRdLd7woao-kA3b6OgHdQ41wNF8Brsd_n42gHqIbjmbZ4Mv5Gzbr2VTEpKUgU NKi7gmPxNHzH95e59-MVScrZBRn089ifE-bwxD-CdtMDAj34kqMLXmFt93JNj-2niahvihei8meOcpjUxPTwDsJPgyoSgwHX4vFhDLHyD81m6X3c bXtHAmzG5gOkvIEbzsuhBnpFJGSE4ql5-UIOb2R7jxcn-ZJfBDcKkCN20sTOKF6JaaavFK2hfZ4SsI22vbUAQ0PlhzAqopV rNDls-gP_DBrvXXnEqVxGu_gGdz6NWmupchJeR22HkuoO2j1kM1UO0xi Jx2TF0AjuX3In1yqCHKRX_4zaNMTOkemuQgYaBdl_ZpJSjIp_T y1ZKzmUN0fJV7omYAD7BXVsY3Jxh8ohqk0U1jB2RTs6JvbyhPH nP5UYxeHp4d9wpmhBDyKHia_JK0GsSwktIMj2mr4vqW9ssPkH-EaJzbo83Eyj88G3KZ1BzxRc8kpxLy-z7z2HzghUvmwt_vvfrp0ccGGeG1WsXFmRqfqVSeHgpEtyWVlX7 uYoiv-vqQQJ9ozIR3sV6sZnu7j_hVaoxoF3-_pgH9wJAoCOxYmk0WaCoKZAszYSzdoiDO4_h3JARIgulKLnHpL oMvoZ=w2694-h2020-no?authuser=0


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JOOfijFPPeRjrkmWpwXvY9CwXMzt7AUITnVB5kA8-wkxQrMFtFV5W037mBhyjTljUWvM-xY41evRbqvgb9dZ9vqdvy4EmGSiverVhtlffj7vWRixeI8u9-gj2V_QeCAUpDcG0CHFE0LnuvrROvl2pDqhBXT2-KJzyrI589FRiccySNtMdkr3P8v8XqR4EBXoPG0qdSZWKyKhkAL QqA7-LHu5ETN76vFpg_GqZqCTFTv_8Xp548mvE71U4DiqU_OTDsZB-muPa92AxdTSDh-PMZ9GG3JXXrzVG4HgSyn8-7BR7qTmtBAdxRFJDt9MriHZSRv8EQGv8j4SYTTqFV8cY2cpJbB lBj_SEEBHAbFCklEzhk4zDYEYyqvt34u3pUUXOBT58BRqU07q1 bDUPDtvXCvG0g2RpTGBhDmwwMMmyMTzWCG4H00UYGLOyG-TXUHfd3gvdmQA7bxOYqDKIfXE38hjQvwnie2LjdAXSqe6pr0Ax RCoCbGL0PzkjocuwGbAO5XVxep-2DxZrA_iKmVmKzjq9F6ftzrOQWAi0NY0k4ouPIYPm4S37r-UrEAioQJfeeLA7GJ9slJm2ahKy4BovuUt2YrE1xNypAwwv-t7jMWfx8wzStdpQwv9hehsIGd3qUS7wuaCmlOPyZTRB6WuoZZF QuEf7DAiG0pCHXCUKlsdVF9YWs4gobXkczWn7itzbSmPdZskWs pC0w_djJpoAzCo=w2694-h2020-no?authuser=0

thepuzzlemaster
08-10-2021, 07:15 PM
I think there was a problem with the attached photos, so just in case, uploading a different way, and including a link to them in my google photos.
111971119811199

https://photos.app.goo.gl/e7mJYKpVHqmEzBNPA

Andywear
08-10-2021, 07:25 PM
That worked!! thanks for the added step. :wave1::thmbup:

Andywear
08-11-2021, 10:45 AM
The lo-side cap (black) can be in different places depending on OEM specs.
For example, on my '91 2wd jdm it's behind and on the left side of the left front wheel near the fan shroud.
On my '91 4wd jdm it's behind the driver's seat (righthand side seat) under the smaller of two removable covers secured by a wingnut. In this van I have had to hang the manifold inside the car, running the hoses through the engine bay and maintenance window.
Good luck


OK soooo, both caps I have found are red, also the interior port under drivers seat was in the larger size access panel, not the smaller of the 3. and no ac ports in the other 2 :cnfsd:

Outside of the cap color, are the hi/low ports actual different sizes?

11201




11199



Outside of me removing my front bumper, I really don't see this blue port. :dizzy:

11200

Andywear
08-11-2021, 01:29 PM
Outside of me removing my front bumper, I really don't see this blue port. :dizzy:




welp it wasn’t hidden behind my front bumper. :(:

thepuzzlemaster
08-16-2021, 12:11 PM
I'm not sure where else your low pressure port could be, but I have the same 2nd high-pressure port behind the driver's seat there, so I'd feel pretty confident in saying that both of the red-caps you've found are the high-pressure ports.

Also, the low-pressure cap is likely black on your vehicle and blends in pretty well. That blue cap, which is way larger than the original one, was from the r-134a adapter I screwed onto my vehicle.

thepuzzlemaster
08-16-2021, 12:17 PM
Here are the diagrams from the manual.
Not sure which model you have, but I have the 4wd with rear ac model.
But it looks like the 2wd unit is closer to under the driver's seat maybe?

11205
11206
11207
11208

Andywear
08-19-2021, 09:01 AM
Outside of the cap color, are the hi/low ports actual different sizes?


the cap color was black on both buutttt they are different sizes and the letter H was on one and L on the other.:wnk:
however, they are R134 ports not R12 as previously expected. No blue caps at all.
which means the switch to R134 happened on this van, which is a '93 . Now who knows if this was done by the manufacture or after...

**Also, I am an idiot I thought the power steering pump was the compressor, so I was looking in the wrong area the whole time. I saw a hose running to it and thought that was it.**

these ports were right off the compressor, just under the radiator reservoir tank.

11210



I think I will grab some R-134 from parts store, add some pressure and see if I can get the compressor to kick on.
We jumped the compressor with the battery trying to circulate the system, ran for <1 minuet and saw no bumbles in the sight glass.

thepuzzlemaster
08-19-2021, 06:01 PM
Glad you were finally able to locate them! Keep us posted on how it goes.

Andywear
08-23-2021, 12:39 PM
I rented the gauge set from the parts store added one can of R-134, compressor kicked on blew cool.
checked the next morning the stactic pressure was good, almost equal on high and low.
based off the R-134 temp. pressure chart (on page 5, of this thread), I am shooting for 45 low, 250 high. Was slightly under that on both sides so picked up another can.
I had taken the gauges off over night and went to reconnect them and I could hear a freon leaking out of the low side port, I grabbed a wrench and tightened it.
started to add more of the next can until I could get the pressures back up.

Watched the first 12 minuets of this vid and decided to get my pressures a little higher hoping to get the cool air cold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXTZURC5iQ0&list=LL&index=1

(^^ this is only one of the many vids I watched before adding freon to my system)

the temp when I was adding freon was 90+ and 58% humidity,
at current the gauges read, while van is at operating temp, 50 and 250. I would like to get the high side pressure over 250.


one odd occurrence is, every 2-3 minuets or so the low pressure drops to 12# stays for about 5 seconds and then raises back to 50.

is that a possible blockage that is moving around in the system?

Andywear
08-26-2021, 04:45 PM
one odd occurrence is, every 2-3 minuets or so the low pressure drops to 12# stays for about 5 seconds and then raises back to 50.

is that a possible blockage that is moving around in the system?


97*F here in Sucklahoma today, rolled up the windows, shut the skilites and turned on the AC, it blew cooler then the hot air from outside :LOL2:

one thing I did notice, it would blow cool and then get warm and then get cool again, Im guessing that pressure drop mentioned above has something to do with that.

I think I will get a few cans from R-134 and hook them up and then use the other port behind the drivers seat to purge the system, perhaps if there is air in the system it will bleed out. :?::cnfsd:

Andywear
08-27-2021, 01:20 PM
I think you are one to something since you didn't evacuate the system before recharging, mainly because you didn't have that small air compressor thing....:wall::doh:

https://youtu.be/XGBAxSDTIoU?t=1192

@19 minuets something

MarCarClow
08-30-2021, 08:25 AM
How often do you prefer checking Air Conditioning System and how often do you prefer refiling.:cnfsd:

Ace MM
08-31-2021, 11:20 PM
do you have a rear A/C?
when i converted mine we didnt add enough because we never turned it on. it worked good for a few months.
when we added more, it was more than we initially put in.
hasnt been any issues since.


How often do you prefer checking Air Conditioning System and how often do you prefer refiling.:cnfsd:
i turn my on monthly if not used just to keep everything lubricated.
refill when necessary.

Jean-Claude Van-chan
09-04-2021, 05:22 PM
I think you are one to something since you didn't evacuate the system before recharging, mainly because you didn't have that small air compressor thing....:wall::doh:

https://youtu.be/XGBAxSDTIoU?t=1192

@19 minuets something

Glad you got the port locations straight, and the compressor location - motor stuff is mysterious until it ain't.

I would start by getting a 0.5hp vacuum from harbor freight or amazon or whatever and making sure that you system has no leaks - and removing as much of the compressor oil as possible and any water/air that may be in the mix (air or water could cause pressure swings in the system and intermittent cooling as it cycles through the compressor). Then you can reliably restart with oil, dye, leak fix & refrigerant as needed.

If there's a chance that your system was not converted to r134a from r12, which is the mother of PITAs since ALL the gaskets including all around the compressor have to be replaced, you could buy it for a local pro and have them put it in... you'll need 36oz of r12 at sea level to give you the 1300g needed for the front&rear systems.
I get it to °72 in the sweltering heat down here in our vans, but have to turn it off to climb a steep hill:?::dance2:

Andywear
09-04-2021, 05:48 PM
thanks for all the good info, I got a plan for a friend to bring his vacuum pump and get it cleaned out and then add oil and freon as well. :thmbup:



I get it to °72 in the sweltering heat down here in our vans, but have to turn it off to climb a steep hill:?::dance2:


11226

Andywear
09-13-2021, 06:01 PM
I now have went 4 days with cold blowing AC, what a good life. :thmbup:

pumped the air out, added 2.5 cans of R-134a. roughly 20* temp difference.

11229

scotty
09-20-2024, 05:51 AM
If you want to run 12v to the AC compressor wire to check if the clutch is engaging, do you have to connect 12v positive to the single compressor wire and then ground the battery to the frame? There is only one wire, so is the compressor ground through the frame bracket? Also, if anyone knows exactly where the AC relay is I could just use a paper clip across the relay terminals 30 & 87 to test the clutch. Thanks

scotty
09-28-2024, 05:27 PM
In the manual on the page AC-13 it gives you a list of steps to inspect faulty AC. It isn’t in the steps to check, but it just has a picture of the location of the “heater” circuit breaker . ( wish I knew how to post a pic here). Is this also the AC compressor relay? If not does anyone know where it’s located ?

Jan-Willem
10-02-2024, 08:43 AM
In the manual on the page AC-13 it gives you a list of steps to inspect faulty AC. It isn’t in the steps to check, but it just has a picture of the location of the “heater” circuit breaker . ( wish I knew how to post a pic here). Is this also the AC compressor relay? If not does anyone know where it’s located ?

The circuit breakers are the oval/racetrack shaped thingies to the right of the normal fuses. You can reset them by poking a paperclip trough the little hole (when the circuit is not live, so key off) Mine were black with a yellow top, I don't know if this is always so...