Alternator woes

[momentum]

Hello all. Excited to make my first post on this site!

I do believe my Alternator is done or at least really dirty and not working. I have studied up on this issue (on another site) and believe my van passes the smell test:

power steering pump leaking
Very dirty alternator (sand, dirt,mud)
Believe ALT is OEM and never replaced
Battery has charge, but cannot start engine without a jump start

What to do now: Do I remove alternator and clean it, then test?
Buy new or refurbished Alt (denso)? Grab one at salvage yard?
Is it best to replace power steering pump as well, if leaking?

I am willing to pay to get a good one. Any info will help.

[timsrv]

Hello and welcome to the site! FWIW, it's okay (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?721-Posting-links-on-TVT) to mention www.toyotavanpeople.com here. I assure you the censorship between them and us is a one way street. I guess what works best for you will depend on your mechanical ability, your willingness to get your hands dirty, and your resources.

In my opinion a damaged but original alternator is better than a working rebuilt one (the exception being an alternator rebuilt by Denso). The original alternators can usually be repaired for a fraction of the cost and will typically last longer than the "lifetime" rebuilds you find at the auto parts houses. If however you need something fast and don't have the ability to repair then a rebuilt one might work better for you. If you go the rebuilt/remanufactured route, I would just pay the core charge and save your original (perhaps you could fix it later and keep it as a spare).

I understand the challenge of repair without the correct equipment. Unless you have a bench tester all you can do is disassemble, clean, perform a visual inspection, repair/replace as required (any obvious defects), and re-assemble. Once you think you got it fixed you can take it to an auto electric business for testing on a machine. Most auto parts houses also have the bench testing machines, but finding a sales guy competent enough to run it might be a problem. Some of your more reputable places like Napa have better trained counter guys and you'd have a better chance there.

Before I got my bench tester that's how I did it. It's hardly worth making an investment like that for a single alternator repair, so taking it in for testing is probably the way to go. I got my tester because over a 10 year period I had collected 8 failed alternators :wnk:. After repairing them I sold them for $40 each, so that helped pay for the machine (it's really more of a toy for me).

Based on what you said I'm guessing it's just your brushes that have failed and the rest of the alternator could be fine. Brushes that fail due to power steering leaks are usually pretty obvious so I'd at least take the tin cover off the case and check those before going and replacing the entire thing. Whatever you decide, by all means repair the power steering leaks before putting an alternator back in there. For information on the common power steering pump leaks CLICK HERE (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?317-Power-Steering-Leak).

As for alternator removal here are a couple of good threads where this is discussed:

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?90-Change-your-alternator-ILLUSTRATED!

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?69-How-to-remove-your-4wd-Van-s-alternator-relatively-easily....

Once your alternator is removed inspect the harness and replace if questionable. The round harness that plugs into the back of the alternator (with 3 small wires going to it) tends to get broken wires in it. Often times the wires will look good on the outside but the conductors inside can be compromised. CLICK HERE (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?91-Replacing-the-alternator-harness) for more information on the alternator harness.

Once out it's fairly easy to disassemble the alternator. Here are some pictures of what you can expect to find:

These are your alternator brushes
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9300.jpg



These are your brushes on ATF (power steering fluid)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9072.jpg

Alternator brushes are Toyota Part #27370-35060 (http://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~holder~assy~alternator~brush~27370-35060.html) and sell for about $15 - $30 (depending on the dealer). Another thing to check (2nd most common failure) is the diode assembly. Here is a messed up one off of a remanufactured alternator:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_0201.jpg

If you look closely you can see several of the diode stems have desoldered themselves from the assembly. This is partly due to a low temp solder the rebuilder improperly used and partly due to the alternator being overworked (owner tried to use it to recharge a dead battery). I don't have a factory Denso diode assembly handy for pictures, but those are identifiable by a gray plastic coating Denso uses to protect from moisture. Even if your diode assembly looks good it doesn't mean it is. There are several diodes here but it only takes one to fail and you're dead in the water. Sometimes diodes short. A shorted diode will allow electricity to travel both ways. An alternator with a shorted diode will often still charge okay but will also discharge when not in use. The easiest way to test for this is before you remove the alternator. Go to the little plastic "+" box (under & slightly forward of your air intake tube) & open it up.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/plus%20box%20closed_zpsekr2jrhz.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/plus%20box%20open_zpsnk46phdb.jpg

Being careful not to touch your tools on any other metal surfaces remove the 10mm nut from the stud. Now remove the eye terminals from the post & touch them together. If they spark or arc, then you have a shorted diode and the diode assembly will need to be replaced. Protect these wires from touching any metal surfaces & before going any further disconnect the battery! Removing the alternator with the battery still connected can be very exciting :yikes: .

Even if the diode assembly passes the above test and it looks good, it could still have an "open" diode. An open diode is one that will not conduct electricity in either direction. Testing for an open diode is easy IF at least one side of the diode is disconnected. Unfortunately since these are soldered with a high temp solder disconnecting them for testing is not an option. The only way I know how to test for this is to put the diode assembly into an otherwise good alternator and run a bench test on it. If the output voltage is low or not even there then the diode assembly is bad and should be replaced. I haven't priced diode assemblies, but frankly I wouldn't want a remanufactured one and I probably couldn't afford a new Denso one. For this reason I shop for them at the pick & pull salvage yards. It's actually pretty easy and inexpensive to find good Denso diode assemblies at the yard. Keep in mind that Denso made variations of this same alternator for many vehicles. There are many vehicles from this era that use internally identical alternators. The cases and mount configurations are often different but the internals are the same. This is good news because it gives you several vehicles to choose from. I've found several Toyotas and several Hondas (among others) to be 100% compatible (other than the cases). Just look at the connection locations on the back side and make sure the round regulator plug is a match.

Another big advantage to this is these alternators are usually in good shape. Even if they have a bunch of miles on them they have most likely had a relatively easy life (cool environment and no ATF leaking onto them). I've pulled several apart with over 200k miles on them and found them to be original equipment and only in need of brushes. Another awesome thing is ease of removal. I always look for the transverse mounted engines that have the alternators mounted on the front side of the engine. These can be removed in just a few minutes. Most pick & pulls around here will charge $19.95 for the complete alternator, but I've found they will usually sell me the diode assembly for about $5. They will often just give them to me for free if I'm making a bigger purchase :)>:.

Voltage regulators are the 3rd most failed component on these alternators. Here is a picture of one (left side of picture sitting on box):
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_0198.jpg

Like the diode assemblies, the only way I know to test these is by putting into an otherwise good alternator and running it on the bench tester. I've purchased these new from www.rockauto.com for around $20 on their close-out sales (Standard part#VR-405), but I actually feel a bit more comfortable with the used Denso ones from the pick & pulls. Again, they will usually charge me anywhere from $0 - $5 each.

There are other parts inside the alternator that can fail, but these are the 3 big ones. It's been my experience that bearings, windings, etc will often go beyond 300k miles so why compromise reliability by replacing with a remanufactured unit? Here's a little video I made while playing with my alternator tester. Enjoy :) Tim


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W3se9RTgbc

[momentum]

Tim you are awesome, thank you sir!

My alternator is out. It was my first attempt and only took about 40 minutes, some cursing and a deep breath. I followed llamavan's instructions found here: https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?90-Change-your-alternator-ILLUSTRATED!&p=360#post360 (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?90-Change-your-alternator-ILLUSTRATED%21&p=360#post360)

My next step is to examine brushes for potential damage. How do I pry the case open? It is really dirty, no wonder it stopped working properly!

If I need to buy a new/refurbished one what is the model I am looking for?
There are three sets of numbers on the alternator, two sets that include a hyphen (xx-xx) but some of the numbers on the sticker have been ripped off. The third set reads U145288.

I will try posting pictures later.

[timsrv]

No need for prying and technically speaking you won't even need to open the case. Everything you need to access is right there under the tin cover on the back side.

Take off these 4 nuts and pull the black plastic stand-off from the stud.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0373.jpg

Remove the tin cover.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0374.jpg

Remove these two screws.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0375.jpg

Remove brush assembly and then remove these 3 screws.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0376.jpg

Remove regulator assembly.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0377.jpg

Remove these 4 screws.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0378.jpg

Remove diode assembly.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0379.jpg

Here is a factory Denso diode assembly. Note the gray coating as mentioned in my previous post (as far as I know, Denso is the only one that does this).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0380.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0381.jpg

Here is the alternator with all 3 of the common failed parts removed. It takes less than 5 minutes to remove all 3 of these components.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0382.jpg

As for part numbers there are so many remanufacturers of alternators out there I would guess there's dozens of part numbers for these. If you go reman just have them look it up by application. An OEM Denso rebuild is Denso part #210-0272 or #210-0115. Toyota's part number for a Denso rebuild is 27060-72171-84. In my experience the Denso rebuilds are very reliable units (as compared to other rebuilds I have used). Tim

[momentum]

276

Perhaps this picture is an insult to TV lovers or maybe a testimonial to how resilient these machines are. Nonetheless, this is a picture of my alternator before I cleaned it. Yes, I drive in snow sand and mud. Yes, I have a power steering leak. NO, As far as I know it does not work. I will get it bench tested soon. I am trying to get this all sorted out and back on the road ASAP. Just wanted to share this picture with you.


I have inspected the three most likely problem areas addressed above. The brushes are intact and look fine. The Diode assembly appears to have intact solder and very similar to the picture presented here. I am unsure about the Voltage Regulator, I suppose a bench test will answer this part. I will keep you updated, with the hope that this info can help expedite future people's problems and questions.

[momentum]

UPDATE:

After cleaning my alternator, I took it to be bench tested. Good news is it tested fine (14.7?). I also tested the battery, which is also fine. So I tried to jump the van and drive it to get a diagnostic done...

The van will start with a jump start, but if the jumper cables are disconnected, the van immediately dies. Dash light that remain on 1) Charge Engine 2) radiator

Now what? Am I missing something. Any help would be great...

[Dogfish]

UPDATE:

...if the jumper cables are disconnected, the van immediately dies...

That sure sounds like your battery is a problem... or perhaps your terminal connections are very loose. How did you test your battery?

[momentum]

That sure sounds like your battery is a problem... or perhaps your terminal connections are very loose. How did you test your battery?


Thanks for the reminder Dogfish! I forgot to tighten the Battery terminal connections before jumping it...I tightened the battery and it finally turned over after a couple minutes. I then drove it for a little over a half hour and then turned it off. The van will not start without a jump. I took the battery to a battery shop and it was tested with a hand held battery analyzer. The guy stated it was a little weak, but certainly within specs.

Back to the forums I suppose.

[timsrv]

That doesn't make sense. Dead batteries cannot be accurately evaluated. If the battery were not dead then the van wouldn't need a jump to start. It sounds to me like you have a dead or junk battery and also have a charge system problem. If your alternator tests good then the next likely thing is the alternator harness. Did you check that as instructed earlier? If not, remove it from the van and test the wires for continuity. Do a visual on the smaller wires where they go inside the round 3 position plug. If there are any questionable connections replace the harness. They are still available through Toyota. Good luck. Tim

PS: Based on what you've said so far it doesn't sound like a fusible link problem, but at this point I think you should inspect those too.........just in case. Here is a good thread that talks about those in detail: https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?136-The-fusible-link-thread

[Harbilly]

I'm with Tim. Hand held things don't test batteries. Loads do. Why not just turn on your high beams when stopped. Lights dim? Do they dim down after a minute? A few minutes?
Yes? Junk battery.

Bad harness? Very common. My 2wd is okay but my 4wd harness is bypassed like a crazy Christmas tree (hey, I was on the road, I had too, leave me alone!)

I've never revisited the repair but I should.

Fusible link? Perhaps so corroded only a perfect battery can push thru enough juice to crank the engine?

[timsrv]

Yeah, I'm a bit old school so I try not to knock things I don't know about. I see these guys at some battery places and shops using these little hand-held load testers and I have serious doubts that these things can do the job. Back when I was getting my training I was taught to test batteries by 1st checking specific gravity with a battery hydrometer or refractometer. This test is to verify "state of charge" and to also verify all cells are within 10% of each other. If the state of charge is less than 75%, then further tests will not be conclusive until the battery is fully charged. If you have one cell that's more than 10% off of the others then the battery is junk. Sometimes batteries with this condition can be brought back using an "equalization charge" (basically a controlled overcharge), but in my experience it usually doesn't work. Even when it does it will only buy you a limited amount of time.

After battery is fully charged (assuming it can now pass the specific gravity test), it gets a load test. I use a "carbon pile load tester" (http://www.amazon.com/FJC-45118-Carbon-Battery-Tester/dp/B00KDI2LH4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1422737813&sr=8-2&keywords=CARBON+PILE+LOAD+TESTER). It's a big box (about 20" X 20" X 6") with a couple of analog gauges on the top and a big black knob in the middle. The proper load for your battery will depend on it's rated capacity. Automotive batteries get 1/2 of rated cold cranking amps and this load is applied for 15 seconds. For an average size van battery that usually works out to about 250A. In order to pass the test the battery must maintain at least 9 3/4 volts for the duration. When load is removed the battery gets 15 seconds of recovery time. Sometime before that 15 seconds runs out voltage should return to at least 12 1/2 volts. If your battery cannot meet these requirements then it's weak or it's shot.

As for the alternator harness, I've seen this exact failure several times. Here's a picture of my handiwork after having this issue while away from home:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_6605.jpg

I did this with materials I had on board my work van while in a parking lot. I drove it like this for several months before replacing my harness. Tim

PS: There are cheaper carbon pile load testers available (more expensive ones too) than the one I linked to above. Here's a cheap one: http://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Tester-Battery-Alternator-Testing/dp/B00FGCG5DS/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1422737813&sr=8-16&keywords=CARBON+PILE+LOAD+TESTER&pebp=1422737963225&peasin=B00FGCG5DS. But for that price I'd have some doubts as to how well it would work and/or hold up. Tim

[Harbilly]

Ya. Good points Tim. Love the alt wiring harness repair. Beauty!
I guess it goes without saying that my 'lights on' test is a waste of time if the alt harness or alt is not charging the bat.
I do usually put the bat on my home charger first THEN do an examination under load.
I don't have the specialized equipment but Toyota thoughtfully equipped the van with thirsty headlamps. A person can get a pretty good idea of battery health while parked in front of the house, splayed in a lawn chair, drinking a beer and watching all four bulbs glowing away for a while. Or 'going away' if the battery is junk.

[timsrv]

Yeah, that could work. Assuming that the combined load of all 4 headlights is about 20A (just a guess), a good grp 24 battery could power these for almost 4 hrs before going completely dead. If you do the math (again, assuming the load is 20A) 7 minutes with all 4 headlights would be about equivelent to 15 seconds of a 250A load. So if your battery voltage stays above 10 volts for the duration & returns to 12 1/2 volts within 15 seconds of turning the lights off, then I'd have to say the battery is still okay. Tim

[momentum]

Today I finally got my new replacement parts from Toyota. I installed a new alternator wiring harness and FL 1.25B fusible link. Glad I got that over with, but the van is still acting up. I took the battery to O'Reilly and the battery was tested with a hand held device and "passed", amps and volts seem fine. I was told the battery was fine, and if it was "bad" the tester would have recommended the battery be tested on another machine...

The van will not start under its own power! If I do buy a new battery and still the van won't start, what next? I will try the headlight test as well...

Starter?

[timsrv]

Are you saying it won't crank over? If the battery is charged but the starter does nothing that indicates a starter or starter circuit issue. Here's a thread where that is covered. Tim

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?126-Ignition-switch-question.

[momentum]

Just wanted to let everyone know the van is back on the road and running like a champ. I replaced the battery, wiring harness and fuseable link. Thanks for the detailed help, I could not have done it with out ya! cheers:clap:

[timsrv]

That's awesome! What did you find out regarding the starter circuit?

[vanwagone]

Ok folks, I've got an alternator pickle. Mine went, as was expected, due to power steering fluid running amok. I pulled it out and not only were the brushes shot but the fella at the alternator shop said the post running up the the core had only moments of life left in it. No one in this next of the woods had anything to rebuild it themselves and so, for what it would cost me anyway, I ordered a remanufactured job, which I just got in today (Denso reman, looked fine to me).

But it doesn't fit. The holder for the bottom bolt is somehow too narrow. And now I've got my grease and frustration all over the reman. Am I missing something or did they get me the wrong alternator? The number on the alternator is A8193, which in a google search seemed to align with my van, a 1986 cargo. I double checked my van serial number just to be sure that mine was sold as an 86 (yes, I have a "G" in my code).

Any help or experience on this one would be wonderful. Tim? Llamavan? I'm tempted to set the darn thing alight... As much as I love it.

[timsrv]

If it looks the same and it's a Denso, then it should fit. The factory alternator mount has a bushing in it that will slide to accommodate alternators that may be a bit smaller. I'm guessing your old alternator was smaller in this mount area and the bushing just needs to be knocked back to a position to accommodate your new alternator. Here's a picture, you can see the bushing in the front end of the mount. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/Untitled-1.jpg

[vanwagone]

Tim, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks for the quick response. This was one of my suspicions but the bushing wasn't moving with my initial, um, persuasions. I will attempt further, and perhaps more intelligent, coaxing tomorrow when I get a chance. Thanks for the pic etc. I'll post my news.

[coronan]

Awesome thread!

I have an issue where my voltage only comes up to 13v while running. They van barely has enough juice to start. Earlier in the week it started fine but died on the hwy due to low battery.

My battery is newish, and tested good. The alternator is 1 year old and tested good.
Did I read somewhere that the ECU is used for Voltage regulation?????
Maybe I'll run a wire from the sense terminal to the battery.

Other ideas?

[timsrv]

The ECU is not part of our charge systems. 13V is higher than a fully charged battery would be on it's own, so the alternator is doing something.........just not enough. My guess is the alternator has one or more open diodes. It could also be a bad connection somewhere........possibly on the sense wire. If you have an extra alternator I'd probably throw it on there for testing. If you don't have an extra, this might be a good time to pick one up.

[coronan]

I'm running a CS144 alternator since last february.
I found this:

2134
"if BAT terminal does not get 12v Alternator will not make juice"

I found a loose nut here.
I guess when i puled it for testing earlier in the week i did not notice how loose it was. Time will tell if this is the root issue.
I cleaned the carbon tightened it up and now have 14V! :dance2:

Question:
Do the 2 wires circled go to the battery or do they split off to supply power some where else???

2135

When I upgraded the Alternator I ran a heavy welding cable from Alt to Battery and a Heavy Ground Strap.
Do I need the 2 wires in question? Or are they Redundant?

My battery terminals have become cluttered with various bypasses and accessories. I'd love to clean it up & Add a heavy fuse block.

[timsrv]

I probably would have answered the last question differently if I had known you have a CS-144 alternator :dizzy: (not too likely you'll get an open diode on a CS-144). Those are damn tough alternators (better than the other CS series alternators) and almost non destructible. On the CS-144, you can get a harness adapter (https://store.alternatorparts.com/partno461804.aspx?gclid=Cj0KCQiAmfmABhCHARIsACwPRA AaYTwy0grCZWrxRuCKXtD0WPcHLeqmb8oGbFI6uE5gzjb6RA53 6vwaAsHQEALw_wcB) that goes from Toyota to CS. If you don't want to spend that much $$$ on the adapter harness you can cut the wires on the van harness and wire them to one of THESE (https://www.ebay.com/itm/112170277721?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=112170277721&targetid=1068323854030&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9033612&poi=&campaignid=11614425326&mkgroupid=114834329962&rlsatarget=pla-1068323854030&abcId=9300456&merchantid=108725432&gclid=CjwKCAiAsaOBBhA4EiwAo0_AnHsDLWk7RcVekeuMBgqM UQ4tMjhlGrFOHUMMI670OLDaVJaupfllYRoCTr0QAvD_BwE).

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/a23/timsrv/(edited)_(edited)_(edited)_CS144_harness.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/.highres/alt_diagram_zps907cbf7d.jpg


Yellow "L" wire on the van harness goes to the Brn/Red "L" wire on the CS harness
Blk/Yel "IG" wire on the van harness goes to the Brn "F" wire on the CS connector
White "S" wire on the van harness goes to the Red "S" wire on the CS connector

Don't worry about the Wht "P" wire on the CS connector. It's my understanding that wire is used to signal tachometers on diesel engines and is not used on gasoline engines.

From what I understand the CS alternator can also be made to operate with a single wire (see pics below). This is known as the "one wire GM mod". Other than the big output wire, you simply take the Black/Yel "IG" wire from the van harness and hook it to the CS-144 "L" terminal. This should excite the field on the CS and it should put out ~ 14.5V.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/alt_diagram_zps907cbf7d_1.jpg

If you look closely at the female plug on the CS-144 alternator you will see letter designations for terminal positions.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_1051_zps64ef2da4.jpg

This picture shows this position on the CS-144 connector. Put the black/yellow "IG" wire from the van harness here.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/Hooptie-alt-GM-plug_zpse280a7d9.png

For more information on this conversion CLICK HERE (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?478-Does-a-2wd-alt-a-4wd-alternator&p=5167#post5167)

[Harv's Go Go Van]

Being careful not to touch your tools on any other metal surfaces remove the 10mm nut from the stud. Now remove the eye terminals from the post & touch them together. If they spark or arc, then you have a shorted diode and the diode assembly will need to be replaced. Protect these wires from touching any metal surfaces & before going any further disconnect the battery! Removing the alternator with the battery still connected can be very exciting :yikes: .

Does the van have to be running when you open the + box and touch the two eye terminals together or not?

[timsrv]

Does the van have to be running when you open the + box and touch the two eye terminals together or not?

No, the van should be off. If the diodes in the alternator are good, they will not allow current to pass, so no spark. If you have a shorted diode, the alternator will draw power (about 5 amps or so) this load will cause a spark or an arc when you make/break the connection.

[Danny]

Thanks for all the helpful info Tim. I was able to remove the alternator and replace the brushes in less than an hour thanks to this thread.

[timsrv]

:dance2:

[Wonderwagoneina]

Hi everyone. I'm having the same issue trying to get a new alternator to fit into the bracket. I read the thread and checked out the bracket, but could not get it to budge. In the picture there seems to be a space between the bushing lip and the bracket, where as mine is pushed in so it doesn't seem to have a space. Would it go in further? How could I try to push it in? I only need a mm more clearance or so... Thank you. Hannah

this was the old alternator 4672

[technocj]

I had the same issue, and used a grinder to get the clearance needed. Hope someone else can shed light on this.

[Wonderwagoneina]

Thanks for the reply! That's what I was thinking. which did you grind?

[technocj]

The alternator, carefully. Thanks to Tim's instructions , I then replaced the brushes and voltage regulator in the older unit, which was a reman that had only about 15k miles, and re installed, keeping the other for a spare.

[Wonderwagoneina]

I was able to successfully file the alternator enough to get it in but now the stock harness doesn't fit (too big) and the harness I bought doesn't fit either (too small). Does anyone know of a harness that will fit a 14682 model quality built alternator? Or send me in the direction of an alternator that will fit the stock harness?

[technocj]

The stock harness should fit that alternator. Did the retailer sell you the wrong one?

[timsrv]

The stock van alternator harness has 2 similar (but different) round plugs on it. Make sure you're trying to plug the correct one into the alternator. Tim

PS: We are talking about a Denso alternator here.............right?

[Wonderwagoneina]

its actually a quality built. we used the old plug in the new alternator and are back on the road. thanks guys.

[Dirtlivingston]

I got my brushes off and one of them is sitting lower than the other they are not slopped away like the picture of the "brushes on atf" picture.
**update** i had my alternator tested at two different places and it passed at both, i am still curious about the different sizes of the brushes??

[timsrv]

Those brushes are worn, but IMO probably not worn enough to cause an output issue......yet. If that alternator wasn't working then I'd look very closely at the diodes. Look for signs of overheating and check the stems to be sure all the solder joints are still intact....................or maybe it's the harness??? Tim

[Dirtlivingston]

At this point im going to put it back together and mess with my battery. Im hoping its not the alternator harness i asked at a toyota dealership today and they told me they dont sell individual pieces id have to get an entire harness for $2000 which kinda blew my mind since i had a part number?? Another intresting thing i noticed was after i loosened the 14mm bolt holding the alternator bracket i had coolant leaking, after i tightened it back up no more leak, is this correct? Also is there any chance this could be the belt??

[timsrv]

If you're talking about the bolt that holds the adjustment bracket to the engine block, there's really no good reason to loosen that bolt........and I would actually try to avoid messing with it. Aside from being the mount bolt for the alternator adjustment bracket, it's also a mount bolt for the water pump and the timing housing. It's a long bolt that goes through a hole in the water pump, then through the timing housing, then finally threads into a "blind" hole in the cast iron engine block. Being a "blind" hole means it does not enter into the water jacket of the block, but it is used to compress the gasket between the block and the timing housing and then the gasket between the timing cover and the water pump. Engine coolant passes through 2 ports in the block, then through the timing housing en-route to the water pump. That bolt helps keep the gaskets compressed so coolant doesn't leak down into the sump. To see how it all goes together CLICK HERE (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/entry.php?51-4yec-Engine-Rebuild-part-10) and scroll about 3/4 down the page. That bolt threads into the lower right hole of the bigger port (see picture of engine block, lower red arrow indicates the port I'm referring to).

There still should have been enough gasket compression with the remaining bolts to prevent a coolant leak, so if it leaked I would be a little concerned even if the external leak stopped after tightening (could still be leaking internally). Keep an eye on your coolant level and check for coolant spots under the van for the next few days. You should also check the oil to be sure it isn't getting coolant in it (coolant in oil makes the oil look like a chocolate milk shake). If the gasket area stays dry, coolant level stays up, and your oil stays transluscent, then I guess you lucked out. Replacing those gaskets without removing the engine is doable, but the one between the block and the timing cover is a PITA as a lot of stuff needs to come off to replace it. Tim

[Dirtlivingston]

Deng thats no good i will keep an eye on it. Im not trying to step on any toes but im pretty sure loosening that bolt and moving the bracket out of the way is a step in the "change your alternator" post on here,it did help make room for the job. Hah all i can say is i hope my van is good:thmbup:

[timsrv]

I'll have to look at that post (I didn't write it). And you are correct, loosening that bolt and swiveling the bracket shouldn't effect things..............unless we're talking about 30 year old equipment that might have failing gaskets and/or otherwise be in a poor state...........then maybe it could be an issue :wnk:. I personally much prefer the design where that adjustment bracket mounts to a dedicated stud (one that doesn't have a bunch of other stuff going on). It is what it is though. Even with the design we have this is a relitively rare issue. FWIW, I always left that bracket alone. Once the alternator adjustment bolt and the bottom mount bolt is removed the alternator can be easlily removed without touching that adjustment bracket. Tim

[Dirtlivingston]

So after some time it appears i do have a leak at the altenator adjustment bracket the leak seems to be following the flow of the arrow in the picture i have not noticed any mixture of coolant and oil.. Is there any other spots i should check before i have to take apart everything and attempt this repair.

[timsrv]

There is a weep hole in the housing for the WP shaft. Sometimes if/when the water pump seal fails coolant will leak from that, so check that before ripping in. You may just need a new water pump. Tim

[Dirtlivingston]

I pulled my water pump off and replaced it and there was definetly evidence of a leak from the weep holes. Two of my bolts had some brown "gunk" on them though im jist wondering if this is the sign of an interior leak, or something worse??

[Bevo1kanobe]

Hi, I'm New here and I want to upgrade my alternator to the exact same model as TIM. There are 2 processes I'm not clear on. 1st, I will be upgrading my ground wire and my battery to alternator cables to 0 awg welding. The part in not clear on is how do I replace the battery cable (s)? Can I just leave the stock alternator battery cable disconnected and then run the new cable straight from the alternator to 250a fuse to battery? Or do I run the new cable to the + box then to the battery? Or is there another best option I'm missing? Also do I need to get the clip that replaces Chevy to Toyota plug? I didn't catch if TIM went that route. Also what do I do with the 2 wires that hold the wire fuse? Do I hook up directly to the 250 fuse? Last where do the blue and yellow wires that are hanging out of the upgraded alternator in discussion. That TIM has in the pics. They are shown hanging so no idea where they go. I think it was covered but I can't remember. Sorry for the 21 ?'s but maybe it will clear up any confusion later on.

[timsrv]

I would remove or tape up and ignore the old alternator output wire (the big one that went to the + box). Then I would run a new large wire (size determined by alternator output) directly from the alternator output post to the battery. I would also recommend a fuse or fusible link in that wire. Fuse size should be determined by alternator output. If the alternator is a standard CS-144 (output 140A), then the wire should be minimum 2 gauge and the fuse should be ~160A. Note: fuse should be approx 10% larger than alternator max output, but smaller than wire's max amp rating. Of course any time the positive cable is upgraded, the ground/negative cable will need to be upgraded to the same degree.

You will need the harness piece to the CS-144 alternator. Those are common and can be found almost anywhere car parts are sold. Regarding my CS-144 alternator. It was custom built to be a higher output of 250A (I think you can go as high as 400A on these), so I needed to run bigger cable on mine. Also, the blue & yellow wires you're referring to are a custom add-on (by me) to bypass the alternator's internal regulator for welding. If you're not planning on welding with your alternator, then just ignore those. Tim

[Bevo1kanobe]

I have found a high output alternator for the van no modifications bolt right on 240ampreges. Company is US Alternator. I messaged them to send me a picture. Without the picture it will be almost pointless to buy because of the power steering fluid drip. If it's the same construction as the stock alternator then it's not good unless yourig a shield or whatever for the alternator won't get ruined by the van fluids. Anyways I am not clear on what to do with the white wires that are connected to the positive battery post. The ones that go from the battery to the fuse box or + box. I think my alternator is on the verge on failure. I was driving and the radiator light came on and the whole colum if icons on the lest side of the radiator icon. The lights on the dash turned off but they re appear off and on while driving. About 20 min . I'm guessing it gets hot and fails. The cause was either fluid which I inspected for and noticed a slight atain on top of the alternator. It's not bad as at all compared to the ones I've seen. But also I run a car audio system that total about 800 watts rms. Which is way over the alternators rating. So I might and most likely damaged it. I need to know details about how to go about upgrading my alternator. I have read the this thread also the wire harness replacement thread. It leaves out a few details in the thread . I need to know what changes will happen to the + box after the alternator upgrade. Also need to know what do I do with the two wires that I had mentioned before. another member had posted a pic of the wires. They are the white ones that one is larger in diameter than the other. It is the wires that have wire fuse. I have no idea what to do with these.

[Bevo1kanobe]

Another thing I just read , Tim you said the blue and yellow wires was an add on by you to accommodate your welder. And if you're not planning on welding then forget that part. Well I'm not welding but am planning on getting a 260 amp high output alternator and running 2 amplifiers that produce about 2200 watt total together. That is a lot of amp draw. So do you recommend the same add on for my use or do I still do get about it? Thanks in advance.

[timsrv]

You would ignore that. The only reason for those wires is so I can bypass the internal regulator to boost voltage for welding. Regardless of amperage, unless you need excessive voltage, leave the internal regulator alone. Tim

[boogieman]

do we know if theres a direct swap alternator from another vehicle that fits our vans? or the same rotor? im looking for a rotor..

[timsrv]

Yes, there were many different makes and models from that era that use alternators with the same internal parts. If it's a Denso, and it's 60 - 70A, and it's got the same regulator plug, and it's the same physical size, then everything inside should swap out. The only thing unique about the van's alternator is the mount configuration.......and even that will match up with some other car models. Tim

[boogieman]

i went to the local u pull it and grabbed a bunch of regulators/rectifiers/brushes before realizing my rotor had no continuity..it fried with an aweful electrical burning stench that still reeks in the van. the stator seems fine with continuity among all 4 leads and no shorts to ground, although it stinks pretty bad too. i noticed that there are two different diode and regulators used, i guess the difference between 60 and 70 amps? one only has three diodes and one 4...theres also an extra connection on the regulator for the 3 diode rectifier. the parts i pulled were mainly off of camrys i think, which have almost 12 o clock but more like 11 or 1030 o clock mounts..since theyre gonna wack me for the whole alt ill check to see if it would still fit the van...but i didnt want to get stuck with a rotor that didnt fit my case...all to save a couple bucks...

[timsrv]

I've never swapped rotors, so I can't say for sure.........but I'd be surprised if you can't find one to fit. In my travels I've pulled different (smaller) diode blocks before and was able to successfully make them work in van alternators..........although I do believe they were not as high of capacity. These usually came out of the Tercels and other small economy cars. On those the alternator cases were slightly smaller than the van alternator cases. Tim

[boogieman]

6272
6273

made it back to the yard and pulled an alternator from a 1991 camry, rotor ohmed out good and diode looked like denso grey, brushes nice, commutator nice and not grooved. $22 +$8 core, $5 tax and enviro fees and im back in business, ill get the 8 buck core back.. just for kicks i mocked up the camry alternator in my 89 4x4 and it fits! it would work..there is less adjustment because of the different case but it was in the window. there are alot of camrys in our yard, not sure why but the good thing is that the alt is really easy to access right on top.

[PNW vanwagon]

that's great info boogieman! just for future clarity sake : are you saying we can plug and play a 1991 camry alternator with out any modification?

[boogieman]

6277

well actually i had to go back to the shop to compare the terminals and it looks like theyre 90° or so off...so there could be an issue with the harness and batt lead length..my 89 doesnt have either of those stock right now so im not sure...ill mock it up again when i have time and do some measuring...

[boogieman]

well bad news sorry for getting anyones hopes up, i got too excited when i mocked up the camry alternator without the diodes attached...the (+) batt terminal goes straight into the block and makes plug and play a no go. good news is that the internals are all the same. my bad...

[timsrv]

I've used the guts of Camry alternators from that year range before. They're a great choice as they are easy to remove (mounted on the top front of a transverse mounted engine). The Camry engine compartment is also well ventilated so they don't get overheated and there is nothing above to drip fluid. Once I snagged one with over 300k miles on it. It was the original alternator and other than worn brushes it was still in great shape. Tim

[Jbbishop2]

Hi, all,

The current alternator in my '88 4WD Van is an AC Delco, installed in 2015 when my original Denso unit finally quit (after replacing seals in the PS pump so it didn't drip any more, and cleaning the alternator and replacing the brushes). It has started to whistle lately, and while it's still putting out 14.3V+ I don't know how much longer it will last, and I'd like to rebuild my Denso to replace it. The brushes in the Denso are still fine, but I think the diode may be bad and I'd like to buy a new Denso diode block to put in it. I've read many of the alternator threads that mention the diodes but other than the recommendation to pick them up at the pick-and-pull I haven't found a part number or source for a new Denso diode block.

Is it possible to buy a new Denso diode block?

I'd be interested in any insights as to the cause of the whistle. I've read in other places that it can indicate the alternator is working too hard. The battery is fairly new (within the last two years) and the whistle is there even when the battery has been fully charged with an AC charger. It goes up in pitch as the RPM goes up, not in a narrow range of RPM like a resonant vibration frequency.

One thing that started about the same time as the whistle was that the charge light came on. It now only comes on when the van is idling just after a start from cold, and it goes off once the engine is revved above about 1000 rpm the first time. Looking at battery voltage at the same time, when the charge light is on right after the cold start the voltage at the battery terminals is 12.0-12.3 or so, when revved the voltage goes up, eventually reaching 14.3V+, and dropping back into the 13s when allowed to go back to idle.

Thanks,
John

[bushcat]

I have a 1987 Toyota Van 2WD.

Washed the engine, was stupid, got the alternator wet. Battery drained overnight. Charged it, started it and had the christmas lights. Started to make noise on the road. Lights would disappear when engine had higher RPMs but when idle the lights would come back on. Pulled the alternator and there seem to be some standing water in it.

Went on rockauto and ordered a replacement, a powerselect 14679N. The one with a heart next to it and the most expensive. I took the old one out and went to replace it with the new one and it wouldn't fit. I pulled it out and it's around a .5mm wider than the old one. I can't push that bearing that's on the bracket in any further, it's pretty much flush and won't budge.

Did I order the wrong part? How can I make this work? Should I try reinstalling the old alternator and see if draining the water fixed the issue? It's dirty as heck, is there a way to clean it?

[timsrv]

bushcat, replacement recommendations were given at the bottom of post #4 of this thread. I can't speak from experience on the brand you chose, but as stated many times in this thread I would only trust a genuine Denso new or rebuilt (actually rebuilt by Denso) alternator. I did a quick internet search using the part numbers at the end of post #4 and came up with several hits. Here's a good one (although they have a $30 core charge): https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dnp-210-0272?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-denso-products&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoJrfBRC0ARIsANqkS_4N8iRVVlX7VR0bNovk N6aTOgHmAUTkzKsR9h3SrfydOkHzssblskwaAhHPEALw_wcB.

If it's the right alternator, then it should fit.........although you may need to adjust the sliding bushing discussed in post #19 of this thread. If I had one that was otherwise identical but wouldn't quite fit into the lower bracket, I might be tempted to remove some material from that part of the alternator with a grinder equipped with a course sanding disc.

Regarding cleaning your old one, if you're going to rework it anyhow, then just use a some solvent and/or some de-greaser, then hit it with a pressure washer. FWIW, I never worry too much about occasionally getting water in the alternator, it's continuous exposure to oil and other similar liquids that take their toll.

Jbbishop2, Very sorry I missed your post (not sure what happened). I'm sure if you were ordering several hundred of these you could find multiple suppliers. Unfortunately these are not normally sold in small quantities to end consumers, so it would likely be hard to find. I've tried unsuccessfully in the past, but haven't tried lately. I've always just gone to junk yards and removed them from other similar alternators. The van is particularly hard on these Denso alternators, but they hold up pretty well in other applications, so I go for the ones in Camry's or other similar vehicles of the same era (easier to remove as well).

[bushcat]

Hi Tim,
After reading into a few other posts. I saw the Denso part number of 210-0272. I have an 87 van but read in another post they should work fine. I could only find it offered through Summit as well. I saw the 30 dollar core charge which after shipping back my old one, I should be able to get half of that back. I took off the dust cap of the old one and it doesn't look like an OEM or denso one. It doesnt have that protective plastic on it. I think what I'm going to do is send the one that didn't fit back to rockauto and order this one from Summit. Thanks for your response and I'll update when I receive the new one.

[bushcat]

So, just to add a note. The most expensive part is not always the best part. That's what I'm learning. The powerselect definitely didn't fit correctly and the Denso fit perfectly. I would recommend others not buy the powerselect alternator as a replacement unless they want to make some modifications.

[Kombi]

I decided to benefit from previous posts and have my unit rebuilt.
My post might be inappropriate here. I would title it ''alternator joy'':clap:
Best Battery in Baltimore Md. I am a repeat customer and first used them for generator armature rewinding on an old FL in the 70's. I brought in my alternator to have it looked at. They had to look around a bit for the right plug to test it with. Machine diagnosis bad diode, perhaps blown when auctioneers used a jump box and hooked it up wrong.
There are three similar diode boards for that alternator. They found the right one, installed it and sent me on my way. Told me my bearing, armature, and brushes were ok and didn't need replacing.
For half the price of a reman unit. They have a source for new Denso units as well.

The plastic anti strain that secures the wiring harness at the back of the alternator got pretty badly injured. The Toyota part 87211-14120 was not in stock. It curiously looked like a molding or door panel retainer. A dorman 963-215 d looks like it will allow you to tape the harness to the retainer, and push it in later. If I have to go at an alternator again I would clip the retainer at the stud and go with a new one at replacement.

I couldn't get the overflow radiator reservoir out. I must have missed something so I did the job with it in place. What is the removal trick please?. It was cold and I didn't want to shatter plastic.


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[Kombi]

Got the rebuilt unit installed and now no xmas lights. yeah:clap:

Fired right up after sitting on the trickle charger and I do so want to drive it.

[outlawmws]

OK, I read this Thread end to end, and reread parts of it.

I've seen several references to the warning lights going "Christmas tree", and the implication is either a low battery or a problem alternator? :wall: Its not clear to me.

My warning lights will flash on occasion, and sometimes stay on for a bit, then go off. Sometimes it will stay on longer and sometimes revving the engine will make them go off but its not consistent.

So can someone explain what the flashing lights really mean? its clearly intermittent and I was assuming I had a short of possibly a dying ECU box somewhere, or dirty connections or ground on that unit.

Then I saw the first "Christmas Tree" mention of an alternator issue, and here I am.

I've only had this project for less than 2 weeks, and part of the evolution is to make sure its reliable after 32 years of abuse by hack mechanics. So far its not as bad as my 87 Samurai that a guy took apart and painted, then half assed reassembled it.. (oh the stories.. and the many ty-wraps...) I have THAT one as reliable is its going to get. This van needs to get the same treatment...

So the ask is, what is the deal with flashing Warning indicators?

[Flecker]

OK, I read this Thread end to end, and reread parts of it.

I've seen several references to the warning lights going "Christmas tree", and the implication is either a low battery or a problem alternator? :wall: Its not clear to me.

My warning lights will flash on occasion, and sometimes stay on for a bit, then go off. Sometimes it will stay on longer and sometimes revving the engine will make them go off but its not consistent.

So can someone explain what the flashing lights really mean? its clearly intermittent and I was assuming I had a short of possibly a dying ECU box somewhere, or dirty connections or ground on that unit.

Then I saw the first "Christmas Tree" mention of an alternator issue, and here I am.

I've only had this project for less than 2 weeks, and part of the evolution is to make sure its reliable after 32 years of abuse by hack mechanics. So far its not as bad as my 87 Samurai that a guy took apart and painted, then half assed reassembled it.. (oh the stories.. and the many ty-wraps...) I have THAT one as reliable is its going to get. This van needs to get the same treatment...

So the ask is, what is the deal with flashing Warning indicators?

Could be one thing, or multiple things happening. Most likely though it's a weak/ worn alternator. Get the multi meter out and investigate. If it's reading below 13V at the battery terminals while running, then the investigation will continue...

It typically ends up being the alternator though. There are several components to your charge system you need to go over and verify are good.
Alternator- verify it is charging between 13.5 to 14 V
Alternator plug. These are a known wear item on these vans
Fusible links, yup they cause issues-
Battery- verify it's good and taking a charge
Charge circuit. Theres a 7.5A fuse in the fuse box that relays to the gauge cluster.
ALL connection points should be gone through to verify solid connections. Use of di-electric/ bulb grease helps here.

Based on what you described though, it really sounds like the alt is going, bad connection or the battery is weak. Multi meter first then check other points.

[outlawmws]

That was pretty much my game plan, although the fusable links are not something I'd typically look at unless it simply went dead.

I connected the DVM to a hot lead (the emergency brake wire) and monitored while I went Yard sailing today. the lights flashed monumentally 2-3 times adn when I caught the drop it was to like 2-3V. no miss and the engine just hummed. Very off.

I suspect the alternator I believe the PO said it had been replaced, but with what...

As you said, diagnostics; and make sure all connection are "Clean Bright and Tight"

So the answer is: a wild fluctuation of voltage DOES cause the warning lights to flash on.

Is that intended by Toyota?

[timsrv]

The dash warning lights come on when the alternator output voltage is low. A flickering of the lights (Christmas dash) is an indication of choppy and/or inconsistent output voltage (should be a smooth and constant). This can be caused by some of the things mentioned above, but is usually caused by failing brushes inside the alternator. If the brushes are at the end of their rope or perhaps stuck and/or fowled by ATF, then this is what happens (see the pics in post #2 of this thread). This can go on for some time, but it is a sign of impending failure. It's been my experience that the brushes will usually fail completely within 6 months/5k miles of Christmas dash. In some cases failure is swift and in others it may take longer. Tim

[outlawmws]

So a report back in the Xmas tree lights on my rig so far:

I checked the battery compartment for dead shorts as I planned and this is what I found:

8580

No Hold down, and a real hack job connecting the starter cable - just to be clear, the cable was pared down to two relatively speaking small terminals crimped on, and the rest? left to "rats nest".... I'm morally certain that some of those were intermittently connecting the top of the battery cover, through the foam rubber someone stuck on there (does not look stock: is that normal?)

So after fixing that, I drove it some yesterday and a 36 mile freeway trip today, and not a flicker of any Christmas lights. it was raining both days as well (will it ever stop?). I had suspected a possible connections to rain as well, but not on the first day drive home (poured hard the whole way) adn nothing this weekend.

So While I still need to check everything else out, I'm becoming comfortable that this was the cause of the flickering which also ties into the drop in voltage to 2-3 volts...


On the topic of the alternator: is there a decent source for GOOD parts for the brushes and diodes? even if everything else checks out I'd like to buy good spare replacements and put those in my "road box spares". Maybe even bearings...

After seeing the pics of other alternators, can I assume the regulator is separate? is there a common replacement regulator with other Toyotas? one from another vehicle would suit me for a road box spare, (or even swap it and keep this one for a spare...)

[cpginkpt]

Noticed some significant fraying in this cable which led to the alternator. (exhibit A below)
Disconnected battery.
loosened the nut to replace cable and the whole bolt assembly popped away from the plastic (Exhibit B/C below)

Assume this is just an insulated junction box (and NOT a ground) since the bolt the wires connect to lays in the plastic bed and does not seem to have any connection to the body/big nut other than the plastic insulator ????

Can I just secure the nut back into the plastic (using RTV?) and triple wrap the whole thing in electrical tape until I can find a replacement box - or am I missing something in this setup?


***have also read the "Alternator Woes" thread several times for clues (exhibit 4)

[Burntboot]

I replaced mine with new from dealer a couple of years back, not sure if they're still available but given its role in life, I didn't even think about the cost.

You could probably rig something, even just as a temporary measure but you want to make sure it is well insulated and secured.

Its never good to have full battery/alt power flailing around looking for something to short against.

[cpginkpt]

dealer - of course! Will check. thx.

[JPERL]

I would be surprised if it was not already discontinued

[cpginkpt]

Still working thru my alternator (?) woes.

I think(?) I have the Christmas tree lights although my 4 lit lights are slightly different configuration than the pic on that thread (see below)

ALSO - my battery is never drained - in fact everything goes like a champ, just got these blasted lights on all the time.

Check the harness / replace the alternator with a new one?

[outlawmws]

Are they on steady or do they flash?

I put a digital Voltmeter on and monitored and it would drop to 2/3 volts when the lights flashed, and that indicated an militant dead short somewhere. Mine was a terrible rats nest wiring job at the battery positive terminal the PO had done and once that was done, it was all good...

[cpginkpt]

no flash - they just come on and stay on.

[originalkwyjibo]

I would start with checking voltage.

[timsrv]

I would start with checking voltage.

I agree. If high (above 15 VDC) it would indicate an open in the battery sense circuit. If low (below 13 VDC) it would indicate an open diode inside the alternator.

[cpginkpt]

so basically just perform these tests (?) => https://www.wikihow.com/Check-an-Alternator

If it DOESN'T pass the voltage tests how can I be sure it is the alternator and not the wiring harness/fusible link/other crispy wiring issues that may be feeding the alternator?

I am also getting a whine from the engine compartment (hard to pinpoint) which combined with the Christmas lights point pretty firmly in the direction of a new alternator.

I just don't want to jump to that conclusion without ruling out other components like the wiring harness etc.

[timsrv]

We cannot tell you what direction to go until we know battery voltage. If you have a volt meter, get a reading from your battery while the van is running. For most accurate results, take the van on a 15 minute drive and get the volt reading while somebody is holding the vans throttle at ~ 2000 RPMs.

[cpginkpt]

Cold battery => 12.65
Start van, rev to 2k on tach => 14.68

15 minute drive
rev to 2K on tach => 14.88

turn on fan and AC, rpms drop from 1100 to 700 + engine shudder, volts drop to 13.2 and then slowly climb back up to 13.8 after 30 seconds. RPM still low with engine shudder.

Turn off fan and AC, volts return to 14.7 with no engine shudder and 1100 on tach

tune radio station to low AM frequency with static and rev engine. Upon rev the volume of static increases.

turn off engine => 13.01

[timsrv]

Although still below 15V, this is unusually high. I suspect an open in the battery sense circuit (would cause your alternator's internal regulator to go to max output). Staying below 15V could be due to a strong battery (ballast) or perhaps it's just the max output of your particular alternator. Most likely failure would be your FL 0.5G fusible link (little yellow plastic part in your battery compartment). It's talked about here in the Fusible Link Thread (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?136-The-fusible-link-thread). Tim


Here is the next most problematic fusible link. The FL 0.5G fusible link is the yellow connector going to the positive battery post inside your battery box. It is rated at 0.5G (based on wire gauge, I'm guessing about 20A). This protects the alternator sense circuit that links the battery positive to the "S" terminal (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/alt_diagram_zps907cbf7d.jpg) of the voltage regulator (built into your alternator). If this link is bad or disconnected, the end result is solid "Christmas lights" on your instrument panel and a "full field" condition in your alternator. Full field is when the regulator tells the alternator to go to maximum output all the time and can be dangerous. A short trip probably wouldn't cause any problems, but long term use could cause multiple electrical problems (due to over voltage) and worse case scenario could end with a thermal runaway condition occurring with your battery. Thermal runaways are scary and dangerous. The result is usually a pile of molten lead, plastic and battery acid all over the place. Thermal runaways have also been known to start fires, so don't push your luck with a bad or failing FL 0.5G link. Here is a what a typical 20 something year old one looks like:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0158.jpg

Although slightly more protected than the main fusible link, this link is still in a harsh environment and after 20 years or so will probably need some attention. I haven't checked to see if these are still available through Toyota, but really didn't see the need for genuine Toyota here. If Toyota still has these, they will no doubt want more $$$ for them than what they are worth. I have found a good substitute for these through Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PCO-0950PT/?rtype=10) for $2.95. These PICO fuse holders are water tight and are rated at 30A. Since this is a "sense" circuit, there would normally not be any current here, so I am going to recommend using a 15A ATC fuse. Here are a couple of pictures:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0164.jpg


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0155.jpg

[cpginkpt]

ah, good (or not)!....based on your first pic and what I see under the battery compartment I would say mine is snapped right off (below). I see a wire to the right and nothing connected to the fusable link so assume these should be connected.

So I will just order the part you recommended, cut out the old one and sotter the new one in place. Doesn't matter which wire goes where I assume (?)

[timsrv]

Yep, that's the rascal. Looks like corrosion infiltrated into the wire insulation. Cut that wire back until you see clean copper, then splice in an in-line fuse holder. Makes no difference what wire goes where. You could technically just cut the old one out and connect the 2 wires together, but having fuse protection is better/safer. Any in-line fuse holder would work (available almost anywhere), I just like the one posted above due to it's water tight cover. After you get the sense circuit back together please update with new battery voltages and report back on your "Christmas dash" issue. Tim

[cpginkpt]

on it. Will report back. Thanks as always Tim!

[cpginkpt]

Christmas is cancelled!

It's definitely going to take me a while to get used to NOT seeing lights in the dash - I keep looking down and thinking something is wrong - ha!

Got the weatherproof fusible link (3.99 at local O'Reilleys), I threw in a 15 amp fuse until I can get back to Napa to grab a 30 - seems to be holding for now.

Voltmeter still reads high but maybe that is my battery size as Tim suggested

engine off - 12.90
2K rev after a 10 minute drive 14.38

AC on will still drop the tach from 8 to 5/6 and add some engine shake plus lower the voltage to 14.1 - but I think that may be the little dial behind the glovebox to adjust idle with AC on. Project for another day.

Thank you Tim!

[timsrv]

Leave the 15A fuse in there (in case of a short, the wire in the sense circuit can't hold 30A). Since this is a sense circuit, there is no current draw, but you want the fuse to blow if that wire ever gets shorted. The wire in that circuit will max out at around 15 - 20A, so 15A is a good size fuse for this application. Tim

PS: Voltage is still a tiny bit on the high side, but within limits. :dance2:

[stolz]

Hey guys,

So I've been looking around the forum for a few days to find a similar problem to mine but I can't really find any and I didn't want to start a new thread since I am assuming it's an alternator or electrical problem.

I have an automatic 1984 Toyota Van.

I have been having troubles with what I am assuming is the alternator. I can drive the van fine, but if I turn the headlights on or the AC she'll run a little rougher. Also if I am sitting in park and rev the engine with AC on or Headlights she'll almost die or acutally die when her RPMs come back down. This happened yesterday in a big intersection, had the AC on and started to go but had to brake due to an ambulance coming through and she just died when the RPMs came back down. I turned the AC off and fired her back up and drove her home.

Additional note: I do not have the Christmas tree when the van is in drive or when the van is on.

I took some voltometer readings today. (All the readings are when connected to the battery)

Cold Battery: 12.6v
Started van: 14.6v
Warmed up van: 14.6v-14.5v
AC turned on: 14.4v right away, AC was on full blast and within two minutes the battery dropped to 12.8v
Revved the motor up and let off gas all the way and she died all the way. Turned AC off and restarted it and the battery was at 14.4v upon restart and slowly came back up to 14.6v

Any help is much appreciated

Michael

[timsrv]

stolz, I don't think that has anything to do with the alternator (your voltages seem fine). Running rough could be lots of things, but if it stalls when running the AC I'd adjust your Idle-Up Diaphragm. The earlier ones have an adjustment to make the engine idle-up when the AC is on. Here's a thread where this is discussed:

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1582-What-does-a-particular-VSV-do-See-excellent-attached-diagram

[GonzaloM]

Does anyone have a diagram to connect the alternator of a 1984 Van? It has an alternator adapted from chevrolet and I want to put the original.

[timsrv]

Does anyone have a diagram to connect the alternator of a 1984 Van? It has an alternator adapted from chevrolet and I want to put the original.

I've already provided that information on post #24 (this thread). I don't know which Chevy alternator you have, but my guess is it's better than a Denso alternator. If that one is having an issue I think you'd be better off repairing that one or replacing with a similar model. After all, the conversion has already been completed. Tim

[TexasHiace]

Hello! I just bought a 1990 Hiace import from Japan. I'm getting Christmas lights on the dash, weak electronics and dim lights. The van loses power and dies after about 80 miles of driving on the highway. My dad and I picked it apart and we believe it's the alternator. I'm having trouble finding the alternator for this van, could it be the same Denso #210-0272 (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?catalog=14&partnum=2100272) alternator that fits the other vans listed on this thread? My engine is the 2RZE.

Thank you guys any help is greatly appreciated!!

[timsrv]

It's hard to say. I know nothing about Toyota's foreign markets, so your guess is as good as mine. You might try asking your question in the diesel section as some of those guys know more about the foreign markets. Other than that, you could try removing the alternator and try to identify that way. Some foreign markets have built-in voltage regulators and some have external regulators. If you get the old one out and clean it up you might find some identifying information on a tag or something. Good luck. Tim

[Poznos]

I agree. If high (above 15 VDC) it would indicate an open in the battery sense circuit. If low (below 13 VDC) it would indicate an open diode inside the alternator.

Just wanted to say Thank You!

My flickering Christmas dash started when I installed my solar inverter. I'm battling corrosion on my positive terminal and my 0.5G fusible link was hanging on by a thread, so I didn't notice that it snapped off when I bolted on that 2 gauge copper rope.

I spent the whole time thinking that I had spilled coolant all over it when I did my thermostat 2 days earlier, and I even bought parts from a scrap yard to get in and rebuild it (got spares now for when my power steering goes ;) )

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48653835173_1dea76a8f3_n.jpg

My solar charge controller had been reading over 17 volts from the battery!!

[Jdelgado]

As for part numbers there are so many remanufacturers of alternators out there I would guess there's dozens of part numbers for these. If you go reman just have them look it up by application. An OEM Denso rebuild is Denso part #210-0272 or #210-0115. Toyota's part number for a Denso rebuild is 27060-72171-84 (tel:27060-72171-84). In my experience the Denso rebuilds are very reliable units (as compared to other rebuilds I have used). Tim

I haven’t been able to source a #210-0272 but I found a #210-0115, after reading that post I’m under the impression their identical units? And would this fit an 89? thanks again!

[timsrv]

Yes, these are interchangeable. Unfortunately Denso has discontinued both, so snatch up what you can before available inventory disappears.

[bushcat]

Yes, these are interchangeable. Unfortunately Denso has discontinued both, so snatch up what you can before available inventory disappears.

Oh no! Is Denso the only direct replacement without modification? I see summit has some for 96 plus 30 core. That's pretty steep. They do have coupons from time to time.

[Jdelgado]

Dang it. Looks like someone beat me to it :pissed:

[timsrv]

Oh no! Is Denso the only direct replacement without modification? I see summit has some for 96 plus 30 core. That's pretty steep. They do have coupons from time to time.

There are many brands that rebuild the Denso cores and they are available from almost anywhere. If a remanufacturer does a quality job using quality parts, then these units will last ~100k miles/10 years or so. Ones remanufactured with questionable workmanship and/or questionable parts are iffy and on average only last 10-20k miles or 1-2 years. Denso units were top notch, so while they were available these were the ones to get. There may be other rebuilds that rival Denso, but I don't know which ones they are. I'm guessing the more expensive options are likely better, but who really knows.........If anybody has good luck with another brand please let us know. Tim

PS: If/when the Denso units are gone it might be worth upgrading to a Delco Remy CS-144 alternator like I did HERE (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?478-Upgrading-the-alternator&p=5167#post5167). Tim

[Landon]

Hey guys! This will be my first post. And I could really use some help.. So, essentially I pulled my alternator assuming it had a plug.. No plug.. Just individual wires.. Now I'm having a tough time being able to find out which wires go to which diodes.. Is there anything I should look out for or can I start interchanging these wire willy nilly until I find the right combo.. There is only 6 possibilities.. Thoughts?

[Flecker]

Hey guys! This will be my first post. And I could really use some help.. So, essentially I pulled my alternator assuming it had a plug.. No plug.. Just individual wires.. Now I'm having a tough time being able to find out which wires go to which diodes.. Is there anything I should look out for or can I start interchanging these wire willy nilly until I find the right combo.. There is only 6 possibilities.. Thoughts?

Don't do that... one second.

[Flecker]

Landon, use this diagram to sort it out...

https://i.imgur.com/MnMCaFt.jpg

[Flecker]

Heres a new harness as well if you want to repair yours...

https://www.amazon.com/XtremeAmazing-Alternator-Harness-Repair-Connector/dp/B06XCJSF51

[Landon]

Thanks!

[Landon]

Landon, use this diagram to sort it out...

https://i.imgur.com/MnMCaFt.jpg



So I folled what was on the diagram as best I could.. Still doesn't seem to be charging.. It doesn't get above 12.3 v.. This is so frustrating 😤

[Landon]

I've used the guts of Camry alternators from that year range before. They're a great choice as they are easy to remove (mounted on the top front of a transverse mounted engine). The Camry engine compartment is also well ventilated so they don't get overheated and there is nothing above to drip fluid. Once I snagged one with over 300k miles on it. It was the original alternator and other than worn brushes it was still in great shape. Tim


Is it possible to swap the guts of an alternator out of an 80s toyota camry to a TV?

[originalkwyjibo]

Yes! Have you read the thread you are posting to?

[Landon]

I've used the guts of Camry alternators from that year range before. They're a great choice as they are easy to remove (mounted on the top front of a transverse mounted engine). The Camry engine compartment is also well ventilated so they don't get overheated and there is nothing above to drip fluid. Once I snagged one with over 300k miles on it. It was the original alternator and other than worn brushes it was still in great shape. Tim


Yes! Have you read the thread you are posting to?


I did! Part of me doesn't believe it! Wonderful

[Flecker]

I did! Part of me doesn't believe it! Wonderful

If your getting less than 13v and you have tested the exciter wire and corresponding fusible link, then it may just need a new internal regulator also. And yes you can use the internals from a common era to alternator. Mid 80's and up to 94~ish trucks as well.

[VanCo]

Convert to a GM alternator. Problem forever solved.

[Flecker]

Convert to a GM alternator. Problem forever solved.

can't beat the 1 wire set up, that for sure... plus the GM brand will crank out some more amps. I had em' in a couple of older trucks... but I do wonder if they could stand the heat? I don't imagine the couldn't I suppose.

One benefit of how the denso ones are mounted in the vans is that it does give you some options for a wee bit of size difference.

[VanCo]

On long mountain runs in 95 degree heat fully loaded I've gotten my EGTs up to 1500 degrees (I usually back off at that point). I have cooked OEM alternators under those conditions. We all know the alternator is snuggled up to the exhaust manifold. The GM handles it fine.

I run an offset mounting hole CS130D. It's hooked up using all the factory van wires, and keeps the warning light working. I chose this alternator because they are on so many GM vehicles, and they are cheap. Ease of fitment was last on my list, I wanted cheap and plentiful. The cooling fan is internal and designed so that you can actually duct the inlet air if you want. The alternator I have is 105 amps and is plenty for me currently. The CS130D can be directly swapped for the larger 150 amp AD244. These are stock numbers. There are performance options for both alternators. I chose a Delco remanufactured pick n pull alternator for $9 two years ago for the fitment.

It does take some creative fabrication to get it to bolt up. In my opinion it's totally worth it.

[Landon]

On long mountain runs in 95 degree heat fully loaded I've gotten my EGTs up to 1500 degrees (I usually back off at that point). I have cooked OEM alternators under those conditions. We all know the alternator is snuggled up to the exhaust manifold. The GM handles it fine.

I run an offset mounting hole CS130D. It's hooked up using all the factory van wires, and keeps the warning light working. I chose this alternator because they are on so many GM vehicles, and they are cheap. Ease of fitment was last on my list, I wanted cheap and plentiful. The cooling fan is internal and designed so that you can actually duct the inlet air if you want. The alternator I have is 105 amps and is plenty for me currently. The CS130D can be directly swapped for the larger 150 amp AD244. These are stock numbers. There are performance options for both alternators. I chose a Delco remanufactured pick n pull alternator for $9 two years ago for the fitment.

It does take some creative fabrication to get it to bolt up. In my opinion it's totally worth it.

What kind of fabrication went into mounting? I'm making a trip to pick and pull today to hopefully solve my predicimint.

[VanCo]

I cut the van bottom bracket and rewelded it so that the new alternator was aligned with the belt pulleys. The most common CS130D has offset mounting holes, not 12 and 6 o'clock like the van alternator. To make this work I made a flat bar of steel to bridge the gap from the offset alternator hole, and the van adjustment bracket. The alternator is threaded on the top hole so the flat bar is bolted there. There other side is bolted to the adjustment bracket. Simple, but effective.

9546

[Landon]

That neat man! Sadly I don't have welding capability. So replacement might be my only option.. Wish me luck on early toyota car and truck parts!

[Flecker]

That's pretty kick ass vanco… I have been looking for a drop in stator that would produce around 120 Amps or so for our small cased Denso's.. I like the idea of a dual battery set up and perko switch for the Van! I think I may have found one but would need to get a donor alt. to see if it's a drop in or I need to run the alt case on a lathe for a few more mm's to get it to fit.

[VanCo]

Thanks Flecker!

You should make the switch. The AD244 comes stock with around 150 amps. Aftermarket 250+. Also, you can find them in any auto parts store at anytime, and the pick n pull for a bargain.

When I grow out of the CS130D, I'll switch to the AD244. It has the exact same mounting configuration, just the overall case is bigger.

[Flecker]

Yah, I know I need at least 120 Amps to make it happen.... Just not sure at what point I would need upgrade wiring to handle the extra load. Most of my sluething kinda lends to the thought process that anything over 130 Amps and the og wiring may not handle it... not a huge deal, as wiring is fairly cheap.

Did you have to upsize anything with your alternator? Or all good? Not sure what the CS130D pushes out...

[VanCo]

Yah, I know I need at least 120 Amps to make it happen.... Just not sure at what point I would need upgrade wiring to handle the extra load. Most of my sluething kinda lends to the thought process that anything over 130 Amps and the og wiring may not handle it... not a huge deal, as wiring is fairly cheap.

Did you have to upsize anything with your alternator? Or all good? Not sure what the CS130D pushes out...

I completely rewired the engine compartment when I went to aftermarket fuel injection. When I did that I ran a new 4 gauge main cable to the alternator. Should be good to 200 amps (only 6 feet to the battery). The cs130d is rated around 105 Amps, but I wired it with an upgrade in mind.

After cutting the entire wiring harness open to see what's inside, I decided I wouldn't run more than 100 amps through the factory harness.

To make it bomb proof I recommend a new main alternator battery wire that can handle the amperage, and to make sure the sense wire is perfect. If it isn't, run a new one. Mine was fried two feet into the harness. Super weird, but explained 10 hours of work 5 years ago. I just ended up running a new wire outside of the harness back then.

The sense (field), ignition, and warning light are all compatible with the GM alternator. You just need to get the GM pigtail that has all the wires.

[timsrv]

This is probably a pretty good time to add a link to another thread where I upgraded my alternator: https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?478-Upgrading-the-alternator&p=5167#post5167

[dom]

Is the long bolt on the bottom of the alternator threaded into the engine bracket?

The bolt head on mine sheared right off as I was trying to replace it..

Any ideas on how to get this thing out now?

Thanks in advance.

[Kombi]

Is the long bolt on the bottom of the alternator threaded into the engine bracket?

The bolt head on mine sheared right off as I was trying to replace it..

Any ideas on how to get this thing out now?

Thanks in advance.

Where did it shear?
Page ch5 of the factory manual shows it to be a bolt with a nut on the back of it after it pokes thru the body of the alternator..
Have you removed the alternator? Be gentile with the belt tensioning bolt, lots of loose juice of your preferred flavor.

[dom]

The long bolt head sheared off when I tried to turn it in order to remove the alternator. Now I have a threaded bolt with no head flush with the alternator bracket hole in the front, and with a couple of inches of threaded bolt sticking out behind the alternator (where the nut goes). The alternator is still on (can't get it off with the long bolt still in)..

All other bolts, belt, wire harness, etc is off.

Seems like every bolt I touch on this van snaps off.. Good times though 😂

[outlawmws]

Can you slide it back enough to get a hack saw blade in there and cut the bolt short?

[dom]

Thanks, I'll give that a shot.

Here I am secretly hoping someone will say "just cut the bracket and install Tim's custom bracket with a Cs144 alternator" 😉

[Kombi]

Thanks, I'll give that a shot.

Here I am secretly hoping someone will say "just cut the bracket and install Tim's custom bracket with a Cs144 alternator" 😉

Remove nut behind alternator if you can.

Double nut the part of the threaded bolt sticking out. Lots of loose juice Blunt point of an air chisel to rattle the bolt and get the juice in. Gently clockwise on the inner nut, then counter clockwise on the outer nut. Poco a poco.

An offering to the Flying Spaghetti monster should you succeed.

[Kombi]

Remove nut behind alternator if you can.

Double nut the part of the threaded bolt sticking out. Lots of loose juice Blunt point of an air chisel to rattle the bolt and get the juice in. Gently clockwise on the inner nut, then counter clockwise on the outer nut. Poco a poco.

An offering to the Flying Spaghetti monster should you succeed. Counter clockwise on the inner, clockwise on the outer. Cofffee had'nt kicked in.

[Grappler]

Funny, I was just coming to complain about my alternator and lo and behold, the "Alternator Woes" thread is right on top!

Has anyone attempted to order this: https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~alternator~assy~27060-72101.html?Make=Toyota&Model=Van&Year=1987&Submodel=&Filter=()

It's listed as a "genuine Toyota part" and covered by their warranty. Does that mean it's a better rebuild than the auto parts store crap? I'm on alternator three, and I'm kicking myself for giving my genuine toyota one away prior to knowing anything -- no core for me! :anger:.
Any insight out there?

[Kombi]

Funny, I was just coming to complain about my alternator and lo and behold, the "Alternator Woes" thread is right on top!

Has anyone attempted to order this: https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~alternator~assy~27060-72101.html?Make=Toyota&Model=Van&Year=1987&Submodel=&Filter=()

It's listed as a "genuine Toyota part" and covered by their warranty. Does that mean it's a better rebuild than the auto parts store crap? I'm on alternator three, and I'm kicking myself for giving my genuine toyota one away prior to knowing anything -- no core for me! :anger:.
Any insight out there? Find an authorized Denso alternator and starter shop. There are such places and they repair all sorts of heavy duty units that cost mad money. In my experience the junior techs in such places only have 10 years experience. I use shops like that for old Bosch and Denso units and they get it right the first time. With no Come backs.

[timsrv]

Funny, I was just coming to complain about my alternator and lo and behold, the "Alternator Woes" thread is right on top!

Has anyone attempted to order this: https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~alternator~assy~27060-72101.html?Make=Toyota&Model=Van&Year=1987&Submodel=&Filter=()

It's listed as a "genuine Toyota part" and covered by their warranty. Does that mean it's a better rebuild than the auto parts store crap? I'm on alternator three, and I'm kicking myself for giving my genuine toyota one away prior to knowing anything -- no core for me! :anger:.
Any insight out there?

Yes, I got one. It's a Denso rebuild in a Toyota box (good alternator). It should rival quality/longevity of the original OE alternator. Keep power steering fluid off it and it should last over 100k miles. Tim