Running issue

[IronViking]

Ok guys heres the deal with my Van.
Go out in the morning and it fires right up, pulls strong and idles good. 5 mins later It bogs down so I have to keep one foot on the gas one on the brakes to keep the revs up. Even then it has a tendency to die, acceleration is nadda. It stumbles and stutters under any but the lightest load on the gas peddle. If or when it does die then it takes 10 mins before it starts again. Once it starts it runs great the rest of the day no problem till the next morning and it begins all over again. Just put a new muffler in thinking it could be back pressure, swaped out the cold start injector too. I also pulled all the plugs and looked like they had be firing fine, all the same color and look to the plugs. As I type this Im waiting now to go out and try to restart it. I searched last night but couldnt find anything. Please guys any help would be much appreciated.

[IronViking]

I just went out and restarted the van, no problem no stumbles or stutters. Revs up right away when you floor it Starts with the first bump on the ignition easy cheesy.:?::?::?:

[timsrv]

Have you checked the ECU for trouble codes?

[IronViking]

Umm.. no.
Never to tell the truth, I should do that huh?

[IronViking]

4-11 is the code I pulled.

[timsrv]

Well there you go. Code 4 is the ECU temp sensor and this will definitely make the van run like CRAP. Yours is probably having an issue at a particular temperature range. Here's a quote from a recent thread:


On 86 - 87 vans, the ECU temperature sensor failing would typically be associated with a code #4. This sensor is very important to the correct running of the engine. Since the sensor is inexpensive and easy to replace I recommend replacing it ASAP any time a code 4 is read. Here is a picture that shows it's location:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/cooling%20system/coolanttempsensor.jpg

The sensor is Napa part #TS5520 for around $15. If you're rolling in the bucks, then it's Toyota part #89422-12010 for around $80. The part number you stated (89422-30020) is the old number..........was superseded by #89422-12010.

Code 11 is most likely (almost certainly) a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). This is a very common failure as these will typically only last around 150k miles. A bad TPS won't make the van run very bad, but it will mess with your economy. Since the throttle body needs to come off to replace the TPS, it's a good idea to service that at the same time. Here's a thread where this is discussed: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1242-Article-Cleaning-the-Throttle-Body. Tim

[IronViking]

So the 11 is for the a/c. This could be due to the removal of the a/c system Im guessing but shoulnt make the van run bad right?
The other is 4 the water temp sensor. Could this be the cause? Its telling my cold start injector to fire?

[timsrv]

Here's a quote from my last post in this thread:


Code 11 is most likely (almost certainly) a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). This is a very common failure as these will typically only last around 150k miles. A bad TPS won't make the van run very bad, but it will mess with your economy. Since the throttle body needs to come off to replace the TPS, it's a good idea to service that at the same time. Here's a thread where this is discussed: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1242-Article-Cleaning-the-Throttle-Body. Tim

[IronViking]

Hey thanks, I didnt see your reply. Ok Im going to rewire the temp sensor and see if I can clean and adjust my TPS. I watched the video you posted and I know from switching out the cold start injector its pretty gummy in there. The wires to the temp sensor have seen better days so Im hoping thats it.

[timsrv]

I moved your thread as this issue is not specific for 4wd vans. Matter of fact, this subject has been discussed numerous times. Please use the search feature in the upper right corner of the forum to research your problems before posting. We're happy to help, but we also want to minimize clutter and keep the forum organized. Thanks. :wave2: Tim

[IronViking]

I got a new ecu temp sensor and clip for the wires. Pulled my codes and now get only the 11 for my TPS. Will a bad TPS cause it to not run? After a long drive the other day no problems after doing the temp sensor then yesterday same thing. Stumbles, stutters under any but the lightest load on the peddle. Then once it dies it wont restart for 15 20 mins. Once it starts again no problem all day till the next morning. Im going down today to see if I can get a TPS and some cleaner to take my throttle body apart and clean like you suggested Tim. Can you please tell me which side of the ECU temp sensor gets the brown wire? Maybe I have it wired up wrong? This site is the only thing that gives me hope sometimes for my van. With out the knowledge here Im sure I would have given up by now. Thanks again Tim.

[IronViking]

Also, when working on the temp sensor I had a reading on my dash gauge, now nothing the gauge sits on the bottom and dosent move. Where does the gauge get signal to read temperature? This is the only time Ive ever had the gauge work on this van and Id love to figure out how I had it and where it went. My Van book just doent have the detail. I see the wires but dont see where it goes to the gauge on the dash.

[timsrv]

The temperature sensor for the ECU and the temperature sender for the gauge are 2 completely different things. Here's a thread that shows location for the temp gauge sender: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1878-Temperature-Gauge-Problem

The temperature sensor for the ECU is a thermistor, so it makes no difference which wire goes where (just that they are both hooked up). Since you've replaced the ECU temp sensor and the code is gone, then your problem has to be something else.......the question is what. Not likely a failed TPS will make it run this bad. Considering the intermittent nature, I would suspect something electronic. The coil or possibly an igniter come to mind. Tim

[IronViking]

Could the timing be off and cause the ignitor to fail? I had to rebuild half the motor a few months back ton replace a gasket that blew over winter and removing the distributor was part of it. I never timed it cause I put it back in the same spot and it fired right up when I was done. But...I had the cap off today cause I was reaching across the motor to goose the gas and it shocked the roflroflroflrofl outta me. I thought maybe it was a bad wire or my cap was cracked. Every thing checked out and looked ok, so I put it all back together. Also today my starter was jamming up, where I could hear it trying to turn the motor but in a not so good way. After a few hit of the hammer it would start. Again I was thinking about timing with the starter, does this even sound right? I pulled the starter this morning and the teeth looked good but I do have an extra new starter from an earlier starting problem that had to do with the ignition.

[timsrv]

Timing being off is a constant issue (not intermittent). Still, if you had the distributor out, why would you drive it without setting the timing? If I were your van I'd probably be acting up too :rol:. If you have any doubts about the condition of the distributor cap, rotor, plug wires, etc, then replace them. Not likely these parts are causing problem, but marginal parts are potential variables and can complicate troubleshooting. When troubleshooting neglected vehicles, these type tune-up parts should always be replaced before wasting time on anything else. Tim

[IronViking]

Well long story short as long as Ive had this van Ive been chasing electrical gremlins. From starting issues, to headlights. When I gasket blew we were in the process of moving to Hawaii. Once I got it put back together I was even planning and trying to sell it. But it started right up once I put the parts back on so I never timed it . 1 no timing light, 2 already I was down days from work so I just got right on it and started trying to make money again to make the move,3 on top of it all we had a new born baby and that was my #1 priority. Truth is Im the last guy to neglect his van, Im the guy who saves them and puts them back on the road. This is my 5th TV and the only one thats ever given me so much grief.
Ive managed to maintain this thing better than most others out there, Im 100% on that. But Im not a mechanic, I just do the best I can when it comes to figuring out the issues this van keeps throwing at me.
The cap rotor and wires have about 10000 miles on them, I doubt they are bad. The wires were only 7mm and I noticed the manual calls for 8mm so I switched them out for new ones last night. I also put a new rotor in just in case.
This morning I put the new parts in and managed to get it running. After that I timed the motor and its saying Im at 25+TDC. I believe Im supposed to be at 12+TDC. If thats the case then the van wont run let alone start.
Codes still only say TPS . Also Im still catching a spark from somewhere as It shocks me from the distributor or somewhere real close to it. Ive Inspected everything and dont see anything that stands out as the cause.
I cant get the cap or Igniter or TPS local so I will have to order these on line if I need to.

[timsrv]

Before timing it you'll need to disable the electronic timing advance (if it isn't already). To do this jump the terminals in your check engine connector (like you're pulling codes) and this will make it ready to be timed. While in this mode set the timing to 12 deg BTDC, then pull the jumper and verify it jumps ahead to around 20 deg BTDC. Tim

PS: You mentioned you recently moved to Hawaii........Are you the same Iron Viking from Seattle?

[IronViking]

Ok I got it timed at 12 degs with the jumper wire, I did not check to see if it jumped to 20 though when pulled. It idles at 750 turned down from 900. After reading some of the other posts about timing I pulled the distributor and turned it back a tooth or two. Its real smooth with just a little stutter sometimes if I goose the gas.It still pulls TPS so I still need to order that. My ignitor seems solid but Im not sure if I can test that other than if my tac jumps when I crank it. I think I may need to start a new thread now for the starting issue. Its weird that this issue is back with the starter, like Ive come full circle.

Yeah Im the same Iron Viking from Seattle. I think I was Sarah&Sean or VikingofIron on TVP or somewhere else. I now have Gnoels (I think his TVP name) old van, we tattoo together, or used to anyways.
http://ironvikingink.com/
https://www.facebook.com/IronVikingInk
I finally made the move back to Hawaii after my second son was born. Just before we moved I had my van for sale on Craigslist. But it ended up running perfect the whole time I really needed it running back and forth to Portland so I shipped it over here. Now its gonna be something that I pass down with the house and property to my two boys. Im pushing 300,000 miles and every day I use it to haul my tools and lumbar. I use the van like a tool as it makes me money and keeps my kids fed. But its also set to camp so its the choice every time we roll to the beach or cliff to fish. Its made for making memories so I need to keep this thing solid. Now that were back on Island I have my Isuzu Vehicross to use if the van is down. In Seattle I didnt have that option.

[IronViking]

Ok, Ive found TDC mulitipul times , my mark is on 0 on my pully and the piston is all the way up with my screw driver in the spark plug hole.
I align my distributor marks as my manual says and its just way out. The way it sits puts it turned in tight to the motor and I cant get it to fire other than a little back fire.
Before this I had done it the same a week ago and drove it to its current place in Mountain View. Its seemed to run smooth and start right up but my timing must not have been right because on the drive here from Orchidland it was way down on power at highway speeds. This prompted me to try again and thats where Im at now. For sure it was at like 25+tdc and I got it to 12+TDC I thought when I drove it here to Mountian View but my last reading said 25 TDC agiain when I pulled it this last time. I was hoping I was just one or two teeth off on the distributor, but now Im not so sure. :wall::?::?: Right now Im feeling a little lost on it and that Im going in circles. Who knows maybe its not the problem at all and I just made things worse.

[timsrv]

Did you make sure you're on the compression stroke? The cylinders only fire every other revolution (the compression stroke), so you need to make sure it's set to TDC of that one. Here's a quote from another thread where this is discussed. Tim


use your compression gauge on #1 to find the compression stroke (crank in short bursts until you see compression start to come up). When you find the compression stroke use the timing indicator on your crankshaft pulley & position the engine to TDC (Top Dead Center). Now pull your distributor cap and verify the rotor is pointing at #1 spark plug wire contact (inside the cap). If it's off then pull the distributor & reposition as required & try again.

[IronViking]

I finally think its right. I had to stop on the timing and figure out the starting issue. Now that ive got it starting again I also have it timed to 12tdc but it doesn't jump to 20 when I pull the jumper wire.

[timsrv]

If it doesn't jump ahead when the jumper is pulled from the "check engine connector" this means the electronic advance is not working. Without electronic advance, power and fuel economy will go down and exhaust temps will be high. Most likely cause is a faulty TPS (which would explain your code 11). Congrats on getting it running half decent, but you still have a little more to do. Tim

[IronViking]

Ok great so its back to the tps. Can I just advance my timing to 20 then until I get my tps online? I just got back from a short drive and it definitely felt low on power in the low end of the gears.

[IronViking]

Does this look correct to you? I looks different to me but comes up on rockauto as theBeck arnley.


1986 TOYOTA VAN 2.2L L4 : Fuel/Air : Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
Price




BECK/ARNLEY Part # 1580503










{#8945214020} (Only 4 Remaining)



https://www.rockauto.com/info/31/BA_1580503_Fro__ra_t.jpg




$29.79





AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5S5171










{Click Info Link for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers}



https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/prevIMGsmall.gifhttps://www.rockauto.com/info/903/5S5171__ra_t.jpghttps://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/nextIMGsmall.gif




$53.79





ACDELCO Part # 2134497










{#19236551} Professional



https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/prevIMGsmall.gifhttps://www.rockauto.com/info/321/213-4497_Primary__ra_t.jpghttps://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/nextIMGsmall.gif




$56.79





STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # TH374










{#8945214020, 96060073} Intermotor; Direct OE Replacement



https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/prevIMGsmall.gifhttps://www.rockauto.com/info/154/TH374photo%20primary__ra_t.jpghttps://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/nextIMGsmall.gif




$58.79

[timsrv]

Yes, that's the one. For some reason the picture used for Beck Arnley TPS units is often incorrect. If you order that number you should get one that does not resemble the file photo.

I wouldn't recommend advancing the timing that far. IMO you're better off leaving it at 12 then to risk damage by advancing it manually. Once you have the electronic advance working your power & economy should improve. Tim

[IronViking]

When i first had dialed in by feel to get it started was at around 20. It starts easy and runs smoothly. First bump now just like it used to be, granted its only been one day and a short drive so far. I used the same spot on the distributor where it was chinched down before. I just used this same spot and it fired up first try. Then I tried to adjust to 12 but it was down on power for sure. I couldn't get above 55mph. But now it feels just like it did before this stuttering and stalling started happening.

[IronViking]

Could the tps have been bad before so the timing was set higher to combat that? Great ill order that part up from rock auto if they will ship to Hawaii.

[timsrv]

The TPS by itself probably won't make it run that bad. I'm thinking you might have multiple issues.

[IronViking]

I got my TPS ordered and Im going to get a coil too while Im at it. Im still having a hell of a time finding and ignition module. I was looking thru some catalogs online and it cross referenced a Camry and a Campfry. Looking on Ebay I found this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-TOYOTA-CAMRY-OEM-IGNITION-CONTROL-MODULE-IGNITER-89620-32050-131300-0831-/221850186253?fits=Make%3AToyota&hash=item33a74d320d&vxp=mtr
The plugs look right, the time period is right but Id thought Id ask before I jumped.
Also I was reading on here, do I need to replace the distributatorand coil together?? I hope not . That seems a bit odd.

[IronViking]

I went and took my starter to be rebuilt and got it back, the guy said it looked like it was getting a lot of current to it had pieces of the copper washer/ring down inside the plunger.
I also went and picked up an 86 2wd 5speed for 200$. Had to rewire some of the things and play with but got it out of the jungle and back on the road. Drove 20 miles to get it home no problem. Its been sitting for 4 years before we gave it a try. Its got tons of good parts including brand new tires and an ignition module that I could not find for under 350$. The body is toast but thats what the jungle does to cars.

[timsrv]

I miss this. I love pulling old derelict vans out of places where they were left and forgotten. Oh the thrill of getting them running again. Sadly, since we moved I no longer have places to hide them. My wife still nags me to get rid of the ones I have :slap:. Nice score. I'm a bit surprised on the shortage of these igniters. Like you said they cannot be found anywhere. Of course they will likely pop back up on eBay at some point. I don't think the Camry one will work. The van ones are unique and have a "79" printed on them. It's possible the Camry one may work with a little mod, but in that picture I don't see the round plug that goes to the distributor. Tim

[IronViking]

Thanks Tim, Im glad I went this route for the ignition module. The van I got was a cargo conversion 5 speed with only 130,000 miles on it. So far Ive got everything under the dash and the few interior pieces of trim. For 200$ I got a big fat radiator, newer alternator and starter, ECU, TPS, Ignition Module, All the glass, lights, and Im pulling the motor and tranny to store for when mine goes out. I mean its got less than half the miles than my 4x4. Im just short of 300,000 mile and now I got this back up with 130,000! What a score :) . I was hoping I could use this radiator to but it dosent fit my 4x4 so the cargos must have had larger radiators than the stock 2wds. My clutch fan recently flew apart when the rivets wore thru and did some damage to my radiator so I took it down to be repaired locally. Im gonna go pick it up in an hr or so then I should be able to see if the igniter helps out with the running issue. My new TPS, and ignition switch are still in the mail somewhere so those will be next to swap if it still has problems.

[timsrv]

The 4wd vans have shorter radiators to make room for the front differential (the 2wd radiator won't fit in a 4wd). To my knowledge, all 2wd's had the same size radiators as did all the 4wd vans (just different between 2wd's & 4wd's). If you have a wider radiator, I'd suspect it had a custom recore at some point. Tim

[llamavan]

Actually, the 84-85 2WD rads are very slightly different than the 86-89 2WD rads. I found this out the hard way (2nd gen won't fit into 1st gen). :dizzy:

Gwen

[IronViking]

Got the repaired radiator in, only 52$! The new clutch fan rubs the bottom of the shroud in one little place where it contacts the knuckle. Im not sure the clutch is working either, it seemed to stay on the whole test run. I may have to switch back to the original clutch and swap on the new fins. It had a slight stumble only once so far so thats positive. Im also still pulling code 11, once my new TPS gets in Ill do that.

[timsrv]

Actually, the 84-85 2WD rads are very slightly different than the 86-89 2WD rads. I found this out the hard way (2nd gen won't fit into 1st gen). :dizzy:

Gwen

That's good to know. There's so much I don't know about 84 - 85. Sometimes I forget they exist :wnk:.

[IronViking]

So heres the situation with my van as of today . New cap, rotor, wires, ignition switch and TPS. 130000 mile ignigter and coil from my parts van and it pulls only a single blink for codes. So far so good. Ive had no problems with it not starting or stumbling but well see how tomorrow goes. To tell the truth Im thinking this whole time its been the ground going to my igtniter off of the air box. I was putting in missing bolts that I took off my parts van and I believe that since then its been running good.

[timsrv]

Parts vans are AWESOME!!! Anybody who drives an older vehicle IMO should have at least one parts vehicle. It makes troubleshooting so much easier to have known good parts available for swapping over. Glad to hear it's working out. Tim