3Y/4Y starters

[JDM VANMAN]

So I'm replacing the starter in my Townace which has a 3Y motor in it, I know there's a different part number is used for the 3Y and 4Y motor and I was told by the parts clerk that the bolt pattern was different between the two.

I ordered a Denso starter for my 87 van and I just got one for my 89 Van with a 3Y motor but they look exactly alike? Some sites say that all starters are compatible from 84'-89' and some say that they are different. Does any one know if this is true?

On another post I said the bolt pattern was different and that's what I was told by the parts clerk. But now with both starters in hand I think they are the same. In the photos to the right of the picture is a Denso starter and to the left is a Beck Arnley reman. When I ordered it from Rockauto they stated that it was a Denso rebuild but I got a B/A starter instead. I wanna return it and just get a Denso starter.

If if anyone knows first hand that would be very helpful.

Thank you:thmbup:

[timsrv]

84 - 89 are all interchangeable. The 84 - 85 starters (for the 3y) are 1 killawatt. Starters for 86 - 89 (4y) are 1.4 killawatt (40% more powerful). For a while I ran an 85 starter in my 86 van. It worked but it cranked slow. Eventually I replaced it with a 4y starter and liked it better. The 3y one never let me down, but hearing the engine spin faster gave me a feeling of more confidence. I changed it while having a fuel pressure problem (check valve in pump was allowing fuel to return back to the tank). This meant longer cranking times and the 3y starter made me nervous. Tim

[JDM VANMAN]

Tim thank you for the validation on the interchange, when I ordered the starter it did state that it was a reman Denso and its a 1.4 kW, I did notice that some were 1.0 kw but stuck with 1.4kw. I ended up with the BA reman instead and I'm not happy bout that... I want Denso or no go!!!

I do notice a difference when starting both Vans in quickness when starting them but never really made sense to me that would be the reason, I was thinking it was their own individual characteristic. I'm gonna return that Beck Arnley hopefully they give me back all my otherwise will post it in the for sale section and maybe a local member may need it.

thank you:thmbup:

[craftech]

Tim thank you for the validation on the interchange, when I ordered the starter it did state that it was a reman Denso and its a 1.4 kW, I did notice that some were 1.0 kw but stuck with 1.4kw. I ended up with the BA reman instead and I'm not happy bout that... I want Denso or no go!!!

I do notice a difference when starting both Vans in quickness when starting them but never really made sense to me that would be the reason, I was thinking it was their own individual characteristic. I'm gonna return that Beck Arnley hopefully they give me back all my otherwise will post it in the for sale section and maybe a local member may need it.

thank you:thmbup:

Why don't you just rebuild it? What's wrong with it?

John

[JDM VANMAN]

Why don't you just rebuild it? What's wrong with it?

John

John,

I really don't have the time or actually the know how to pull the starter, order the correct parts, rebuild it and put it back in the van with no issues. Now that the starter is out I can leisurely try to accomplish this rebuild... With my 2 left hands:LOL2:

So I took the Van in and they installed the Denso, I picked it up on Saturday and test started it and it fired right up.... And now twice this weekend after running errands and shutting off the Van it won't start. I put it on the charger to test the battery and it shows 12.1 amps. I turn the key and you can hear the starter click but it won't turn the engine over. Lights, stereo, and windows all work fine but it won't turn over. When I jump it then it'll start right up, not sure what's going on ( ground wire):?:

[originalkwyjibo]

Assuming you meant 12.1 volts instead of amps when you tested your battery, then it sounds as though your battery is discharged or weak. Try fully charging the battery then testing voltage while trying to start the van and see how low it drops. You can pull the EFI fuse while doing this so it cranks without starting. If it drops below 10-10.5 volts then it's probably time for a new one. You can also take your battery to an auto parts store for further testing. While you've got the meter hooked up it's a good time to check alternator output voltage to see if it is contributing to a discharged battery. If all of this checks good then google "battery voltage drop test". Use the test procedures you'll find to determine if there is significant enough resistance in your battery cables to warrant replacement.

[JDM VANMAN]

Assuming you meant 12.1 volts instead of amps when you tested your battery, then it sounds as though your battery is discharged or weak. Try fully charging the battery then testing voltage while trying to start the van and see how low it drops. You can pull the EFI fuse while doing this so it cranks without starting. If it drops below 10-10.5 volts then it's probably time for a new one. You can also take your battery to an auto parts store for further testing. While you've got the meter hooked up it's a good time to check alternator output voltage to see if it is contributing to a discharged battery. If all of this checks good then google "battery voltage drop test". Use the test procedures you'll find to determine if there is significant enough resistance in your battery cables to warrant replacement.

original,

man thank you for the terminoligy, I knew it was wrong when I reread it but couldn't remember the words. Both times I tested the battery at 12.1-12.2 volts, but what has me tripping is that I just drove it and 5 minutes later it won't start, wouldn't driving it around for 45 minutes charge it back up enough so when off for 5 minutes it would fire right back up again?

As for the battery it's about 12-14 months old Interstate group 24 and new cables were swapped out at the same time and alternator (Denso Pro) is about the same age. I have a battery/ alternator tester/ charger so I'll try what you've suggested hopefully sometime this week. But I'll also try a trickle 2 volt charge overnight.

Thank you:thmbup:

[originalkwyjibo]

If the battery voltage is that low than it's either not getting or not accepting a charge. A fully charged battery should be 12.6-12.7 volts and the alternator should put out 13.5-14.5 volts. Definitely fully charge the battery and then do a battery load and charging system test if you have the equipment. It may be a wiring issue other than cables too. Mine wasn't charging and it turned out to be a diode in the printed circuit on the instrument cluster. I didn't even realize that was possible.

[JDM VANMAN]

original,

thank for your helpful tips!! A short in the cluster?? How is that possible, I guess anything is possible.

[timsrv]

How did it behave with the old starter? Did it crank at all? Did you have these type intermittent issues?

[craftech]

original,

thank for your helpful tips!! A short in the cluster?? How is that possible, I guess anything is possible.

If you have oil leaking into the alternator from either the P/S pump or the engine it may not have failed yet (dashboard with infamous 'Christmas Tree Lights'), but may not be fully charging the battery. Test the battery. In terms of rebuilding the Denso starter, the parts are cheap and rebuilding them is very easy:

http://www.iowamotorparts.com/denso_starter_solenoid_parts.htm

John

[JDM VANMAN]

How did it behave with the old starter? Did it crank at all? Did you have these type intermittent issues?

Coincidently, yes it had just started doing the same thing with the old starter, I didn't think of checking the battery at that time cause I assumed that the battery was fine. I was tapping on the (old) starter to get it running.

John,

thank you for some valuable input, but there's no leak at the P/S pump or any part of the head (thank goodness) at this time. But yes I will need to retest the battery to see if it's holding charge. And as for the starter rebuild, thank you for the link:thmbup:

[timsrv]

Use a voltmeter on the battery while it's running. S/B over 13.5 V. If less, then there's a problem with the charging system. If so, then read this thread: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?335-Alternator-woes. If volts are okay, then it's likely a problem somewhere else in the circuit. Here's a thread that should help you identify: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?126-Ignition-switch-question. Tim

[JDM VANMAN]

Well I had to give in and take the Van into the shop, I charged up the battery and dropped it off at Hobbs, they had it for the last 2 weeks and were never able to duplicate the issue. They tested the battery, alternator, starter, and then they had hooked it up the automotive EKG System (volt meters) starting from the ignition, battery, starter, alternator, neutral safety switch and I don't know where else, or actual order, but it's all hooked up to see where the voltage drop is happening and isolate the problem. with it all hooked up during the day when passing by the Van they would start it and let it run for 30-60 minutes and when someone else would walk by they would turn it off and then within 10-15 min go back and try to start it.... And of course it started every time:wall: they did that all week and then the next week after I stopped in during my lunch break I took the Van to get gas and then drove it 30 minutes and brought it back and shut it down and then tried to start it and of course she fired right up:wall::wall: They continued to do the walk by start and stop scenario but then added in taking her out driving during their lunch break to try and duplicate the issue aaaand yes you guessed it... She fired right up:wall::wall::wall:

So Friday after having it for two weeks and trying to duplicate the issue and having no luck I stopped by and spoke to Dave the service writer and told him thank you for all his efforts. I brought it home but it's been a crazy busy weekend so I haven't drove it at all to see if she'll act up again.

I hope when they were checking all the connections maybe they unknowingly cleaned or tightened something that was loose or dirty???

[JDM VANMAN]

Update-

i thought the problem was solved but nope, I left the van at the shop for 3 days and they were finally able to duplicate the intermittent start issue I've been having-

turns out the starter solenoid is only getting 7.4 volts and that's not enough to get it to turn over. They said its possibly because alarm interrupt wire that runs to the soleniod isn't allowing enough current to run thru after its warmed up.

Has as anyone heard or experienced this type of issue with an alarm installed? Maybe it doesn't have to do with the alarm and it's just old wires?

[djshimon]

I had a 1984 that had intermittent starting. I'm pretty sure it was from a rebuilt Bosch starter because I swapped it with junk yard one and no problem again. Other people had this problem and just skipped the steering column and put on a push button start directly between starter and battery.
Don't know about the alarm system but if it's intermittent I'd say probably old van wiring.

[JDM VANMAN]

djshimon,

thank you for the quick reply, I was thinking old wires as well so I has already ordered an ignition wiring harness just I case that would be the issue from the steering column, but it sounds like it's further down the line.

not sure if a new fatter wire from the alarm to the soleniod would solve the problem. I love the push button start idea but really don't want a whole lot of electrical modifications done to the van.

[JDM VANMAN]

Tim,

thanks for creating this thread-

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?225-Re-Ignition-switch-question

gonna review this's with my nephew who installed the alarm and has a better understanding of wiring and electronics.

Thank you:thmbup:

[JDM VANMAN]

So the intermittent starting issues have arised once again. Since the Van is in my other trusted shop for the wheel bearings I described the issue to Mr. Yee (MasterTech) for a second set of eyes and hands to have a look at the problem.

He called me to inform me they were not able to duplicate the issue but have notice the positive battery wire had a little corrosion and that the main starter wire had some oil on the terminal. Probably from the last oil filter change cause there is no leaks in this baby!!

Solution was to clean off the battery terminal and put on terminal grease, remove and clean starter wire and clean contacts and wire. (No charge):dance2:

I'm hoping this is will resolve the on going issue!!

[timsrv]

If it persists you should try the following:




I was also experiencing this same issue on my 86, but every time I started troubleshooting, the problem would remedy itself (sometimes these issues will vary based on conditions or other factors & can be hard to track down). Since I knew the circuit was functional (just weak), and since voltage loss is directly proportional to load, I took the load off the circuit by installing a Bosch relay. Now all the trigger circuit needs to do is activate the coil of the relay (very small load) and the relay supplies power to the starter directly from the battery. I can't guaranty this will work for you, but it completely solved my problem. Before the relay mod this was happening about once a week. I installed the relay over a year/15k miles ago and the problem hasn't come back since. Good luck. Tim

[JDM VANMAN]

Tim thank you for the reply, I went in today to, pickup the van and when I went to start the Van I could already tell the difference in the way it started, quick, responsive and fired right up without and hesitation.

I drove it 4 miles down the road to the strip mall where my wifey and kids were waiting for me in the Suburban to buy dinner. I was out of the Van for about 20 minutes picking up dinner and when I was heading back to the Van I was dreading that it would do the same thing cause maybe it was my imagination that it fired up so quick at the shop.

I jumped in and turned the key and it fired right up again!!

YAAAAYYYY :dance1::dance1::dance1:

[JDM VANMAN]

One year later the symptoms reemerged and had gotten worse to the point it was an average of 20 or 30 clicks turns of the key to get it to start. I finally took it back to the shop and luckily it happened when I was dropping it off so the tech ps were able to observe it and push the van right into the repair bay.

My tech took everything apart and hooked up a voltage meter again to see where the voltage drop was happening and once again it was at the main starter wire only producing 5.7 volts. All the terminals were cleaned, connections were tightened, and then all wires were retraced, unkinked where applicable and then the voltage was back up to 11.6v and the van was starting just fine.

They kept the van for the next 3 days to see if it would act up again but it started every time and didn't fail. The original plan was to run a wire from the ignition to the battery and then the starter but due to liabilities and safety reasons they said they would not be able to do that.

So now the van has been starting without any problems and cranks and fires up right away!!
Success once again!!!!:dance2::dance1::dance1::dance1::dance2:

JDM

[originalkwyjibo]

Have you seen the posts below from Tim? I did the Bosch relay mod on a Subaru experiencing the same thing you describe. I liked the results so much I was thinking I should do this on my vans as well just for the heck of it. It's also a common mod on aircooled VW's.

Based on what you said it sounds as if the starter itself is fine. Probably bad/failing contacts in the ignition switch or perhaps a bad connection somewhere else in the trigger circuit. With intermittent issues, the problem areas typically drop (lose) voltage while under load. The starter solenoid needs at least 10.5 volts to reliably engage, so if this circuit loses any more than 3 volts, the starter will become unreliable or not function at all.

I was also experiencing this same issue on my 86, but every time I started troubleshooting, the problem would remedy itself (sometimes these issues will vary based on conditions or other factors & can be hard to track down). Since I knew the circuit was functional (just weak), and since voltage loss is directly proportional to load, I took the load off the circuit by installing a Bosch relay. Now all the trigger circuit needs to do is activate the coil of the relay (very small load) and the relay supplies power to the starter directly from the battery. I can't guaranty this will work for you, but it completely solved my problem. Before the relay mod this was happening about once a week. I installed the relay over a year/15k miles ago and the problem hasn't come back since. Good luck. Tim


Hi & welcome to TVT! The intermittent no start problem, assuming you mean the starter will not activate, is a fairly common issue on these. This can be one failing part, or the combination of slight losses from multiple electrical components and/or connections. The most common single part is a worn contact inside the starter. For more information on this, HERE (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?126-Ignition-switch-question) is a good thread that explains. I would recommend anybody having this problem open their starter and inspect/replace contacts before doing anything else.

The next most common cause is failing contacts inside the ignition switch (in the steering column). To clarify, this is not the part you put the key into (that part is called the ignition lock/cylinder), it's the electrical component driven/rotated by the cylinder (under the panel on the other side of the column). I have replaced the ignition switch before on different vans with varied success, but the last time I ran into this replacing the ignition switch only reduced the frequency. I eventually cured the problem by installing a Bosch relay in the engine compartment down by the starter. I rigged it so the signal from the ignition switch activates the relay (instead of the starter solenoid) and the relay then activates the solenoid by switching + power directly from the battery to the starter solenoid. I would recommend 12 gauge wire from the battery to the relay and from the relay to the solenoid.

A relay here is basically a band-aid. Assuming your problem is the result of small electrical losses from multiple components/connections, these losses are directly proportional to load. Lets say your starter solenoid needs a minimum of 10.5 volts to activate (this is a reasonable expectation). Lets also say the battery voltage is about 12.5 volts (this is typical of a fully charged battery). When you take into account the the "barely adequate" wire that Toyota uses in the circuit, I think it's reasonable to expect ~1 volt drop through it (while under load).........now you're down to 11.5 V. If your ignition switch contacts lose another 1/2 volt, now you're down to ~11 volts. When you consider the neutral safety switch and various other connection points (each with small losses) it's easy to understand how this can become an issue. If this (low voltage to the starter solenoid) is the culprit, a relay can remedy this because it will significantly reduce load (smaller load = smaller voltage drop). A weak circuit barely capable of engaging a starter solenoid could easily engage a small Bosch relay. The relay can then be used to deliver full battery voltage directly to the starter solenoid. If this is too technical, print it out and take it to your mechanic (he'll understand).

Regarding your key coming out of the cylinder with the van running, this is also a common issue (but unrelated to your start issue). Toyota's ignition cylinders are weak. Years of wear typically result in this problem. The other thing is security. Lock cylinders that allow a key to be removed while running will usually also allow the van to be started with different keys or even a screwdriver. For security reasons, people with this issue should either replace the ignition cylinder and/or install a hidden kill switch. Don't make it easy for thieves to steal your van. We have members here (at least 2 or 3 per year) who lose their vans due to theft.

Last time I checked you could still get a new cylinder (with 2 keys) for around $100 (try one of those discount Toyota parts websites like 1stToyotaParts.com (http://www.1sttoyotaparts.com/part_number_search.html?)). The part number is 69057-28021. A new antenna is Toyota part #86300-28010 & sells for around $50 on one of those sites (if it's still available). Tim

[JDM VANMAN]

original,

yes i reviewed that thread, I don't know all the correct terminology but I think that's was the modification I asked them to do but they said it was not going to be possible due to safety reasons. Or maybe I didn't explain it correctly. :?:

Its ok for now, hopefully the problem has been fixed!!!

Thank you:thmbup:

JDM

[timsrv]

The relay mod above will not affect safety (all safety protocols remain intact). This mod only boosts voltage to the starter solenoid :yes:. I think you're confusing the relay mod with a "hack type" bypass mod. That one is not recommended as it bypasses the neutral safety/clutch safety switch. Tim

[JDM VANMAN]

Awe man yes your totally right I did have the 2 threads confused!!!:cnfsd:

so silly!!

JDM