Clutch Replacement

[wayoffline]

I just picked up a 1987 4wd 5sp that had been sitting for at least 6 months. When I first started driving, the clutch would chatter pretty bad from a stop. I had this happen on a 2wd and it was apparently from an oil leak that contaminated the clutch plates. On this van, however, after about 5 miles of stop and go, the chatter went away and was replaced by a bit of slipping. That too has improved with driving but I fear a new clutch is in my future. I have replaced clutches on other vehicles, but never a 4wd. Is this something best left to a professional, or can a somewhat handy person tackle this in his or her driveway over the course of a weekend?

[timsrv]

It's almost the same as replacing the clutch in anything else except there's a few more steps. You'll need to remove the passenger seat and pull the access panels (outlined HERE (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?26-Accessing-the-van-engine!)) and you have an extra drive-line to take off and the shifting cables. Trying to pre-think everything can be a little intimidating, but if you just concentrate on doing one thing at a time it isn't that bad. Be sure to make sure there isn't any oil leaks in this area or you will most likely be doing the job again soon. If you're in there anyhow, I would strongly recommend replacing all of the following parts:


clutch disc
pressure plate
throw-out bearing
pilot bearing
slave cylinder (depending on condition)
It would also be advisable to remove the flywheel and take it into a machine shop for resurfacing. Make sure all friction surfaces are free from oil and/or any other contaminants before final assembly.

With a good jack, a set of jack stands, and the right tools, this job cane be done in a driveway in about a day, but you'll most likely have some down time waiting for the flywheel to be resurfaced. If you cannot wait for the flywheel to be redone, if it looks okay you may wish to re-use by simply breaking the glaze with sand-paper or scotch brite pads and wiping down with lacquer thinner. I've done this before and gotten away with it, but I've also had times when the clutch was a bit chattery. Due to the times it didn't work so well, I've learned to be patient and wait for resurfacing. It sucks to invest all that time and money only to end up with less than satisfactory results. Tim

[wayoffline]

Thanks for the input Tim. Still not sure I am ready to tackle the task, but if I do- do you have any thoughts on parts? I assume, like most things, all clutches are not created equal. I am definitely not afraid to spend a little more money on higher quality bits from a reputable source.

[timsrv]

When it comes to a lot of things I'm partial to OEM parts. I'm sure others will disagree, but personally I'd stick with Toyota for everything except maybe the slave cylinder. You can get rebuilt slave cylinders on eBay and/or www.rockautoparts.com (http://www.rockautoparts.com) for very reasonable prices.......and for this type of part I don't see any reason not to. I've purchase the other parts from Toyota before and IMHO I thought their prices were reasonable. Tim

[coronan]

Any advice on Pilot bearing removal?

I tried the "hydraulic" Grease method and 12mm bolt method. No luck.

[timsrv]

I used the hydraulic method for years without fail before I got my pilot bearing removal tool. Grease along with the right diameter punch/steel rod will knock it right out. You need to have a tight fit on your punch though. Get the closest diameter you can find. If it's a little small you can use tightly wrapped electrical tape to increase the diameter. When you pack the void with grease, try to minimize the air or it won't work (just compresses the air). I usually poke the grease gun right in there and pump it until the grease pushes the tip of the gun back out the hole. Then it's just a matter of a couple good hits with the right size punch and it's out.

The ID on our pilot bearings is small. So small in fact that many pilot bearing tools won't work. Back when I worked for Toyota, the Matco pilot bearing tool was one of the only ones that would go small enough......and even then you had to really back it off and sneak it in sideways. Good luck. Tim

[coronan]

Brilliant idea with the electrical tape!

It turn out i didnt have enough grease in the cavity.
Worked like a champ.

Also
My Transfer case oil looked brassy. What could it be? When do I Worry?

I wanted to clean the transmission breathers. Are they pressed in??? Removal Method?

[timsrv]

Unless you're going to crack the case about all you can do is put a high quality oil in and change it at normal intervals (for gearboxes I prefer synthetic). I'm not a tranny guy so personally I'd avoid opening it up. I guess it would depend on how much metal was in there & previous performance as to whether or not I'd take it to a tranny shop. How long had it been since the last oil change?

I never tried to remove breathers before so I can't help you there. Tim

[Burntboot]

Those little breather tubes ARE pressed in but usually self-destruct upon removal.
All you need to do is to make sure that the top piece is loose, it should spin freely and have slight vertical movement.
As long as it can spin, it will breath.
I have never met a breather I couldn't free up, but I usually try to free them up prior to dumping the fluid, on the off chance that some of the penetrating oil makes it all the way inside, usually though, if your careful you can avoid that too.
(spray it, let it soak, then start turning the "hat", keep working it until all moves nice and free without the gritty sensation)

I wouldn't put too much stock in the colour of the old fluid, god only knows what the PO had in it.
Put fresh oil in and see how it goes from there.
Skads of special tools are required to service the internals of manual gearboxes and not for the faint of heart.

Tim, I am interested in your thoughts on synthetic and what brands you have had success with?

Back in my Suzuki days we had a lot of people put Redline in their gearboxes only to destroy the synchro's in short order.
Warranty didn't cover the repairs either, as the fault was traced back to the fluid.
Given that we had lots of vehicles running around for hundreds of thousands of miles on dino oil without any issues and it was only the synthetic guys that would destroy synchro's in 20K I tended to believe the warranty dept as to the cause.
Ever since I have been wary of synthetic in gearboxes.
Maybe, just maybe, things have changed in 20 years??
BB

[timsrv]

That's interesting. I'd never heard anything like that before (synthetic oil destroying synchros). Should I be scared? I used to use Amsoil but recently switched to Royal Purple. Last year when I had my auto transmission and 3rd member gone through (I was using Amsoil Severe Gear & Amsoil synthetic ATF) my transmission guy said "I've never taken apart a 3rd member that looked so good". He went on to say that replacing seals was all he could recommend :)>:. At the time that gear box had 175k miles on it.........85k of them "severe service" miles put on by me with the Amsoil. I asked his opinion on synthetic and he said it was the only thing he would use in a gear box. Of course we weren't specifically talking about manual transmissions but I got the impression he was including those in his statement.

I'm not currently running anything with a manual transmission but I've used it before without issue. It would be a bit ironic to be paying the extra $$$ only to be destroying your equipment. Perhaps somebody here that's been using it long term (in a manual transmission) will pipe up. Tim

[Burntboot]

I believe the issue has something to do with friction modifiers found in many of the synthetics on the market.
Personally I have just been too chicken to give it a go, for the very reason you stated.

Glad to hear you have had good success with your experiences.

I have no desire to do anything more to the drivetrain (after rebuilding the trans, TF and replacing the diff) so anything that
could make it last longer I am willing to try, but would like to hear some positive experiences before I pop for synthetic.
BB

[coronan]

I took my van by a trany shop before i dropped the MT for the clutch. He couldn't recommend any work at the time but offered to resurface the flywheel. He said to note the color of the transmission fluid for a brassy color indicating the the syncros were worn.
My oil had 40K mi on it with synthetic. (mobil 1, 75-140 full synthetic, gl5)

The MT oil looked great. the T case oil looked slightly brassy.

The Transmission tec said Toyota has always called for Dino oil to make the syncros work. A Synthetic Might be too slippery and allow things to keep spinning and not line up.

It is true that many Synthetic oils are GL5 and not GL4.

The 4runner crowd says make sure its GL4 compliant.

I'm going with a blend this time GL4 / 5 compliant. Valvoline 85-140

[timsrv]

Well, after doing some research I'm a little surprised (and embarrassed) I didn't know that :dizzy:! I checked the Amsoil Severe Gear and found it's okay to use in all differentials (even those rated for GL4) but it's not recommended for manual transmissions designed for GL4 (which I assume includes our vans). Thinking back, I don't believe I ever put that in a manual transmission rated for GL4, so at least that makes me feel better. When I checked out the Royal Purple, here's what they say about it: "Max Gear is recommended for use in truck and automotive front or rear differentials, manual transmissions and lower gear units of marine engines that specify use of an API GL-5 or GL-4 fluid. It is non-corrosive to soft yellow metals (brass, bronze, copper, etc.) and synchronizer safe".

I only switched from Amsoil to Royal Purple due to availability (I hate Amsoil's marketing), but it looks like Royal Purple is the better "all around" gear lubricant anyhow. I still have a few gallons of the Amsoil synthetic ATF & don't have any reservations about using (nor do I plan on switching). Aside from many years of good results in my own equipment, I got the thumbs-up from my transmission guy after he reworked my high mileage auto tranny. Tim

[Ian R.]

Hey all,

I am currently having my vans engine completely rebuilt after an unforeseen/unfortunate crankshaft incident. I am wondering if I should use an HD clutch vs a std clutch replacement?

Anyone have any experience/opinions ?

[Ian R.]

I should also mention that I am currently running 225X75 grabbers, have a rear Aussie Locker (I use the clutch a lot to coast through sharp turns), and use the 4WD regularly.

[timsrv]

Ian, Since both 2wd & 4wd vans have clutches, I moved your thread to the regular van section. Also, since there are already threads on clutches here, I merged your new thread with an existing clutch thread. For the sake of organization, in the future, please search out similar subject matter and post your questions there (thanks).

As to your question, I have no experience with AM clutches. So far I've only purchased OE Toyota clutches (as they were very competitively priced). Based on other posts I've read, I believe OE may no longer be available. If it were me, and if I couldn't get OE, I'd call a parts store (like Napa) and ask those guys who makes the best clutches & if the HD is better than the STD........then I'd probably go with that brand/style. Personally, without any other information, I'd probably go with HD, but sometimes they can have extra spring pressures and may be a bit more grabby. If you're using the van in a way that would be high stress for the clutch, then this may be best for you. Tim

[Ian R.]

Sorry about the duplicate thread. I searched google and on the forum and failed :doh:.

Any who. The van was starting to have some chatter taking off in first. I was teaching the wife how to drive the van last weekend:thmbup: when she shifted into 4th too soon and the engine began to rev. :rol: It was funny to see her reaction when we where going 20 mph at 4000 rpm in 4th.

I am having the flywheel replaced instead of being machined. The mechanic said it was not worth risking a poor result. Maybe I let the clutch go for to long.:cnfsd:

[timsrv]

Sorry about the duplicate thread. I searched google and on the forum and failed :doh:.

No problem, just wanted to make sure you tried 1st. I don't mind so much moving/merging, but it's more work than searching/posting in the right spot to begin with. When we were smaller it didn't really matter much, but now that we've gotten over 20k posts it's beginning to matter. Just trying to keep it under control.

As for replacing the flywheel, I guess that depends on condition of the old and/or price/quality of the new. If the old one is badly grooved or has been machined too thin, then I agree. These flywheels usually go for a long time though. OE quality is about as good as it gets and machining is only removing enough surface to clean-up and/or counter any warpage that may have occurred. I would think you could get over 500k miles or more out of an OE flywheel unless something bad happened or maybe a machinist botched a previous resurfacing. Just make sure he isn't recommending new only because he makes more money. Tim

[bushcat]

I'm replacing the clutch on my newly bought 1985 Toyota Van. Is there anything else I should have serviced while the mechanic is under there? Also, is there a source for new flywheels?

Thanks!

[Hammervan]

Something I didn't see anyone mention in this thread is replacing the main seal when replacing the clutch. The OP mentioned his old clutch was fouled by oil, which could easily be caused by a leaking main seal. This is a cheap part that frequently leaks on high-mileage vehicles and is hard to get to without dropping the tranny, so why not swap it out when doing the clutch? My main seal is leaking badly and I wish I'd replaced it when I had the clutch done a few years ago, now I'm just waiting for another excuse to dig in there or for it to get way worse before dealing with it (hopefully when the weather is warmer). I have a bit of clutch shudder now which I blame on the main seal leaking oil on the clutch.

[bushcat]

Hammervan - Do you have a part number from rockauto on that main seal? I think I have it in my cart but I want to be sure.

Are there any how-to posts with pictures for clutch replacement? I see Toyota Truck clutch replacement videos online. Is that pretty similar? Tools needed?

[Burntboot]

BC - Tim pretty much covered the operation in post #2.
Its 90% grunt work and is fairly straight forward once you get in there.

As to the rear main, I ONLY use OEM for stuff like that.
Not saying the AM seals aren't good but I have no interest in saving $20 on a part that takes 6-8hrs to re&re.

[bushcat]

Do you know what the part number is for the main seal? I'm not too mechanically inclined to know which is the right seal when looking at RockAuto. I think I bought the right one but I'm not entirely sure.

[boogieman]

90311-80003 is the oem toyota part number i believe...rockauto is not going to carry that. youll have to go to dealer or online part source such as toyotapartsdeal.com

[bushcat]

Thanks Hammervan. Looks like I did order the part from RockAuto, I ordered Fel-Pro. Hopefully that's ok, better than not replacing it at all.

[Maxisback]

Just replaced clutch pressure plate and throw out bearing , now I have a horrible noise coming the moment I push the clutch pedal it gets worse , subsides after shifting ...arghhhhhhh I double checked everything , didnt put any grese between it and clutch ,,...any clues , good lord I hope I dont have to pull this thing again ...

[SeattleSquatch]

Well, after doing some research I'm a little surprised (and embarrassed) I didn't know that :dizzy:! I checked the Amsoil Severe Gear and found it's okay to use in all differentials (even those rated for GL4) but it's not recommended for manual transmissions designed for GL4 (which I assume includes our vans). Thinking back, I don't believe I ever put that in a manual transmission rated for GL4, so at least that makes me feel better. When I checked out the Royal Purple, here's what they say about it: "Max Gear is recommended for use in truck and automotive front or rear differentials, manual transmissions and lower gear units of marine engines that specify use of an API GL-5 or GL-4 fluid. It is non-corrosive to soft yellow metals (brass, bronze, copper, etc.) and synchronizer safe".



After reading this I was doing some research on Gear Oils. Might find this study of gear oils sponsored by Amsoil interesting (ranked Royal Purple as an overall 3rd worst out of 14 brands):
https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?7582-Transmission-oil-vs-Differential-oil-87-Toyota-Van-4wd&p=44660#post44660

If memory serves correct the repair manual says you can use GL-4 or GL-5 in the manual transmission van so I feel like the Amsoil might still be a safe option since it's not specifically for GL4 only? Especially after reading the study on Amsoil Severe Gear and how it compared with the Copper Corrosion Test (which was 2nd best in category compared to Royal Purple which Failed GL-5 specifications altogether).

Food for thought!

[Burntboot]

Max - did you check the condition of the pilot bearing?
The only other suspect would be inout shaft bearing

Is this a new noise or one that was supposed to go away with the new clutch?

[timsrv]

Regarding the pilot bearing, in the old days they just used brass or bronze bushings between the crank-shaft and the nose of the transmission input shaft. I can see how a bearing is nicer, but since it only rotates while the clutch is depressed, it really doesn't see much action. Even if it were seized I doubt it would make much noise, but I've never seen one seized before, so I can't speak from experience. Does the noise only occur while the clutch is depressed? If you're hearing noise in all gears except 4th, then it's likely a failing input shaft bearing. Tim

[MuchaJoe]

Hey Team.

1987 4x4 5spd.

I noticed my rear main seal leaking and I would like to do a full clutch replacement and drivetrain refresh. This will be my largest mechanical undertaking to date (on my daily driver no less) and I want to make sure I’ve got the right parts and everything I need before I take this project on.

Parts definitely needed:
- Clutch kit. Aisin CKT 018. Includes clutch cover and disc, release bearing, pilot bearing and alignment tool
- Clutch slave cylinder. Aisin CRT 043
- Rear main seal (aka Rear main bearing seal OR Crankshaft rear seal). Toyota 90311-80014 (tel:90311-80014)
- Flywheel housing dust seal. Toyota 11354-71010 (tel:11354-71010)
- Clutch release fork boot. Toyota 31126-20060 (tel:31126-20060)

Parts likely needed:
- Rear engine mount. Toyota #1230354010. They call this ‘Bracket, engine mounting, rear, no. 1’

Parts I’m not sure about:
- Engine rear oil seal retainer. Toyota NLA. Would it be alright if I used RTV here?
- Input shaft seal. I’m confused about what/where this is and if I should replace it during this operation.
- Output shaft seal. I’m confused about what/where exactly this is and I should replace it during this operation.

Thoughts and feedback would be very much appreciated.

[Burntboot]

Try this thread:
1987 Van 5 speed manual won’t go into gear. (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?7598-1987-Van-5-speed-manual-won%E2%80%99t-go-into-gear)

[MuchaJoe]

Thanks Buntboot. I was trying to keep my questions to an appropriate thread. ‘Clutch replacement’ seemed like the most obvious candidate! Alas, I’ve answered all my own questions. I tried to delete my earlier post in this thread to keep the clutter down. The forum won’t let me do that so I’m wondering now if an admin might please delete my earlier post in this thread? This one too if you’d like! I hope to share/write up my thoughts/observations on the whole process at a later date.

[SeattleSquatch]

Actually I'd love to see the answers you came up with to your own questions here. I've been following. Need to take on this same job very soon!