fire but no fuel (been sitting for years)

[austinfromflorida]

I've recently purchased a 1987 2wd with 97k miles and in need of TLC. Starts with starting fluid through air intake. I'm not sure how long it has actually been sitting (I believe since 2009) or any history on what's gone wrong with the van. I've removed old fuel and replaced. The fuel pump is silent when turning on the key. A push starter button is wired to the starter by-passing the ignition. My next move is to replace fuel pump but am unsure if that's the correct order of operations. If ignition has issues, is the wire-jump trouble-shooting of the fuel pump valid? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Austin

[timsrv]

Hi & welcome to TVT! Regarding your problem, been there done that (hopefully never again). With today's quality of gas, storing for more than a year is asking for trouble. Your suspicions of a failed fuel pump are likely correct. Here's a thread that explains testing the fuel system: https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?589-Testing-fuel-system-replacing-fuel-pressure-regulator&highlight=testing+fuel+system. You can skip all the way down to the 13th picture & just hook up a jumper wire to that test connector. With a wire connected there & your ignition switch to run, you should hear the sound of fuel flowing through your system. If you don't, move the jumper wire in & out of the test connector & listen for a clicking of your COR (Circuit Opening Relay) behind the glove box. The COR is essentially the fuel pump relay. If you can hear it click then you should hear the sound of fuel flowing in the system. If you're not hearing the sound of flowing fuel, then it's almost certainly a failed pump. To get an idea of what happens to the inside of a tank when stored with modern gasoline inside. Check this thread: https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working/page2 :no:. Tim

[austinfromflorida]

Thanks, I do have the clicking behind the glove box jumping the test connector with no fuel pump sound and am preparing for the fuel pump surgery hopefully soon. I'll keep you posted (may be a bit though), Austin

[austinfromflorida]

I pulled the tank and cleaned, replaced the fuel pump and found that there is no power to the fuel pump. I believe there is power to the tank gauge since the fuel light is on (possibly sitting in that position on the unit). I disconnected an electrical connector plug directly behind the battery running to the fuel pump and fuel gauge and got power on one of the legs at that connection but not at the fuel pump connection plug. Didn't look at it long after I reached this stage, :also- when pushing into the shop with a tractor, The back right wheel was locked with transmission in nuetral- it's automatic ( I'm hoping that doesn't mean anything bad) Thanks for the help

[timsrv]

Here's a schematic from the 87 van service manual:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/EFIfuelpumpcircuitdiagram_zpsc1890c50.jpg

What I would do next is pull the glove box and locate the COR (Circuit Opening Relay). The COR acts as the fuel pump relay (it's the one that clicks when you're jumping the FPCC (Fuel Pump Check Connector). Other than the clicking, it's easy to identify as it has "Circuit Open" printed right on it.

The blue wire coming off that relay is the power wire to the pump. Jump the FPCC, turn the ignition to "Run" & check for power here (blue wire). If there is power here, but not at the pump, then you have a wiring issue between this relay and the pump. If there is no power here, then check the black wire on the COR. With the COR activated, and clicking previously verified, if you have power to this black wire, but not to the blue, then the COR is bad. If there is no power on the black wire, then the problem is either a bad EFI relay or related circuit. The schematics show the paths, so it shouldn't be too hard to track down. Please keep us updated on what you find. Tim

PS: If you haven't already checked them, check your fuses.........especially the 15A EFI fuse. I guess it goes without saying fuses should always be the 1st thing you check when troubleshooting.

Here's some more pics that should help:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/13IMG_9014.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/14IMG_9015.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/15IMG_9016.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/FuelPumpCircuit.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/EngineFusebox1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/EFIfuse.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/EFImainRelay.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/CircuitOpenRelay.jpg

[austinfromflorida]

I've got power to the fuel pump through jumping the test connector. I didn't check if there was power to the pump w/o jumping the tester (I don't think so though- I will tommorow). Should I change out the fuel filter before attempting to crank or do that after running a bit if it fires? Any other pre starting manuevers I can make to avoid the possibility of clogging the fuel injectors? The fuel tank was filthy. I havn't looked into the transmission issue yet, Possibly the linkage not shifting out of park? I plan to fuel up and fire tommorrow after work. Thanks again- Austin

[timsrv]

Open circuit relay is triggered initially through the ignition switch (but only while in the cranking mode). As soon as you release the key to be in the run mode, the ignition switch no longer interacts with the OCR. As soon as the engine fires, the AFM (Air Flow Meter) has enough flow to activate the FPS (Fuel Pump Switch) that's inside of it. The FPS takes over for the "start" mode of the ignition switch & keeps the OCR energized. The FPCC is only there for testing reasons. It essentially bypasses the FPS inside the AFM. The system is designed to prevent a fuel spill after an accident. If the engine quits, so does the fuel pump.........even if the ignition is still on.

Since the fuel system was contaminated, I would probably leave the old fuel filter on and activate the fuel pump via the FPCC (don't start). This will create circulation and clear rust and debris from the lines. Most of the junk that's in there will be captured by the old filter. It won't foul your injectors because they won't be firing. After running the pump for about 5 minutes, I would change the fuel filter, jump the FPCC for another minute or so, then start. Tim

[austinfromflorida]

Tim, The van fired up and seems to run smooth. I had the back end raised on jack stands and the transmission seems good. How can I get it to start again from the key as opposed to the push button hooked the the starter? Is that narrowed to one possible flaw in the ignition which can be replaced or more complicated? The back right wheel is still locked and havn't tinkered with it (brake?).Thanks with the resuscitation! Austin

[timsrv]

Depends on how they wired the switch. Usually stuff like that is easy to trace (looks much different from factory wiring). I'd just remove it and patch any cut or damaged wires. As to why it was necessary, you'll need to do some troubleshooting. Here's a thread where this is discussed: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?126-Ignition-switch-question&p=966#post966

As for the stuck wheel, probably brake shoes got rusted to the drum while sitting for a such a long period. You will want to take the brakes apart and rework things. Pulling that drum will likely be a roflroflroflroflrofl though. When the wheel was skidding, was that on gravel or on a hard surface? If on gravel, I would try to get that wheel spinning using the vans power. If that doesn't work, maybe try towing on a hard surface (depends on what you have available). Regardless, I would want the wheel spinning and free before trying to remove the drum as it will be a lot easier to remove without the brake shoes stuck to it. Tim

[austinfromflorida]

Tim, I tried to brake it free with the force of the van with no luck. It was pushed on gravel and concrete before. I've access to heavy machinery. Could I bathe the entire brake with used motor oil? Austin

[timsrv]

Damn, that sucker is stuck good. I can think of a couple ways to get one unstuck with extreme force, but other potential problems with safety & possible damage to other components makes these methods ill-advised. You could do the oil thing but it's messy and may not be enough. If it were me, next get a brake spoon to see if the adjuster will still turn. If it does I'd back it all the way off. Next I'd put some bolts into the drum pulling holes & put some tension on them (careful not to strip). Next I'd heat the drum with a torch (even heat around the periphery) & whack the OD of the drum with a big hammer while carefully putting more tension on the drum pulling bolts (work the hammering around the periphery).

If that fails I would probably just sacrifice the drum with a cutting torch (careful not to damage the backing plate). If you cut the face off the drum you could pull that out of the way for the access you need. Chances are pretty good the drum is trash anyhow. You're almost for sure going to need all new brake components inside as well. Time is money & these drums aren't that expensive........ I'd just make sure you could get one before torching it. Tim

PS: make sure the e-brake cable is retracted. Climb under & check the other end to be sure it's mostly pushed back inside it's sheath.

[lamont]

My 1985 van will not start...a dash of starting fluid and it runs so I am not getting any fuel. I replaced the fuel pump less than 1000 miles ago.
When I plug a jumper wire into the fuel pump check(with key in on position), I DO NOT hear the circuit open relay click or the pump running. I think it should click when the jumper wire is inserted correct?

However, if I turn the key to the crank position the circuit open relay does click!

Any advice appreciated!

[timsrv]

When you turn the key to run (but don't start), does your "check engine light" in the dash illuminate? If not, check your EFI fuse. Tim

[Bdavidch]

My 1985 van will not start...a dash of starting fluid and it runs so I am not getting any fuel. I replaced the fuel pump less than 1000 miles ago.
When I plug a jumper wire into the fuel pump check(with key in on position), I DO NOT hear the circuit open relay click or the pump running. I think it should click when the jumper wire is inserted correct?

However, if I turn the key to the crank position the circuit open relay does click!

Any advice appreciated!

I am having exactly this issue~!

Did you find a solution. I replaced the COR and pump already and the thing turns over fine and will start with starter fluid and even rev for a second before dying. I cant find any fuses that would matter other than the EFI fusible link (which is fine). This all happend when i wired up a new battery backwards for a second and it blew the main fusible link. Any ideas??

[jmac333]

Hi. I replaced my fuel pump with one that works. No power to pump. Tested the circuit open relay and it is working properly. Black wire b+ reads 12v with key on but blue wire fp only reads 0.7 volts (it does actually read 0 before turning key to ON). Removed air intake and tested, it is working properly. Checked all fuses and EFI main relay. So far everything has tested fine. Does all of this narrow down the problem to being the ECU? I have a replacement ECU but just thought i would ask first. Thank you kindly, J

[Chaka]

hello, i'm having the same problem... did you find a solution to yours?

[jenvinh]

Also having the same problem. Updates?

[Chaka]

got my figured out a couple of days ago. I fixed all the fusible links replaced both EFI and COR relays... I checked all the fuses in the fuse box the first night,But apparently one of the first things I did was check all the fuses and when I replaced the 7.5 amp fuse for the IGN Slot I put it back in the empty spot below where it goes. So I guess the only thing that happened to mine was the fusible link beside the battery and the 15 amp EFI fuse. As soon as I put the 7.5 ignition fuse in the right spot turned the key and the check engine light came on and it fired right up. Careless trouble shooting in the dark the first night caused three days of chasing my tail. if you put a jumper across the EFI relay socket between the Black and white wire It will bypass the relay. if that doesn't work put a jumper wire across the black and blue wire on the COR relay slot you should have power to the fuel pump at this point. There's not much on the EFI circuit. I believe the only thing left was the 7.5 ignition fuse on the main fuse block and 7.5 fuse on the small holder also containing the 15 amp EFI fuse.

[swamptony]

I've got power to the fuel pump through jumping the test connector. I didn't check if there was power to the pump w/o jumping the tester (I don't think so though- I will tommorow). Should I change out the fuel filter before attempting to crank or do that after running a bit if it fires? Any other pre starting manuevers I can make to avoid the possibility of clogging the fuel injectors? The fuel tank was filthy. I havn't looked into the transmission issue yet, Possibly the linkage not shifting out of park? I plan to fuel up and fire tommorrow after work. Thanks again- Austin

Does anyone know if you're supposed to have 12v to fuel pump even if you're NOT jumping the fuel pump test connector? I have 12V to the connector shown below with the FPCC jumped && without it jumped. Fuel pump doesn't whir up and trying to diagnose. I'm thinking the pump is toast but wanted to double check to see if i'm missing something else. Thanks!

11253

[timsrv]

With the key set to "run" and engine not running, when you install the jumper in the FPCC you should hear the Circuit Opening Relay click behind your glove box and the light blue wire going to the pump should start getting +12VDC. When you remove the jumper you should hear the COR click again and 12VDC should not be present in the light blue wire. If power is present all the time (jumper or no jumper) and you're not hearing the click, then you likely have a stuck (closed) switch inside the AFM. It's also possible somebody cross-wired the system as to defeat the COR, or perhaps to make it run with a bad flow switch inside the AFM. Having 12VDC in that light blue wire all the time is a safety hazard. If by chance you had a serious accident and the fuel system was breached, the fuel pump would continue pumping fuel....possibly all over the place (not good if there's an ignition source present and/or you're injured/trapped inside) :pissed:. Tim

[swamptony]

Thanks Tim! This is helpful. I'm no longer hearing clicks after inserting/removing the jumper from the FPCC. Strangely, I'm only getting 6V out of the blue wire from the COR, but 12V is at the fuel pump connector at the gas tank (shown in image above). I'll double check the voltage again coming off the blue wire tomorrow to confirm that it's 6V. Not sure if relevant but I also have no voltage at the FPCC when I put the multimeter in that connection I get nothing.

As for the AFM - is there a way to confirm that I have a stuck closed switch in the AFM? Don't know much about the AFM so I'll do some digging around here in the meantime.

Appreciate your input

[timsrv]

That light blue wire coming out of the COR is the same light blue wire going into the pump (just the other end of it). So whatever it reads coming out of the COR should be the same at the pump end. If it's not, then it sounds as if it's been hacked or tampered with. If you're no longer hearing clicks, then check your fuses 1st. To check the AFM flow switch, unplug the AFM from the harness and check for continuity between conductors E1 & FC as shown below. Tim