Starting issues. new alternator & battery. junction box??

[Aloria]

:wave1:
My husband and I have an 87 TV 2WD, and this is the 4th 80's TV "Lightship" we've owned. We bought this one in 2012 and it just started giving us problems within the last 6 months.
Here's the gist:

Van won't start, intermittently, since last summer. Battery terminals are clean and cables are tight. Took the battery in and it tested good (was new last August), but it showed that the alternator was putting out a little less than normal (it was the original factory alternator). Had the alternator replaced last week and it started and drove fine for a few days.

Today, we took it out for a few errands around town, and at the second stop, it died. Starter was clicking, but it wasn't turning over (in other instances, it was completely dead.. no click, nothing). We got a jump and drove it home. In most instances, when we jump it, it starts right up immediately... except for when it was dead in our driveway a few weeks ago (and the temp was very low out.. in the teens), and it had to be charged for 10-15 min before it would start.

I read something on the Toyota Van People forum a while back about a corroded junction box (behind the battery?) being the cause of a similar issue, and it was fixed with a wire brush and some vaseline. I have no idea what this is or how to locate it (and the young guy we had replace the alternator said he couldn't find the junction box, but the fuse box seemed fine. I think he might be younger than our van).
:doh:

One other possible factor is an after-market alarm system that was installed by the previous owner. It's a Viper and has updated our 80's Lightship with *futuristic* automatic locks, an alarm and a remote starter (very amusing to hear the van go "bwoop-beep"). :LOL2:
I love this alarm system because these vans are notoriously easy to steal. My husband had 2 stolen, and I once unlocked & re-locked a stranger's TV with my key to turn the headlights off in a parking lot so it wouldn't have a dead battery (gotta look out for each other!).

After the alternator replacement last week, the remote starter would start the van, but then it would shut off after about a minute, and it would keep trying to re-start, die, re-start, etc. We hadn't been using the alarm for a while, thinking that perhaps it was causing a drain on the battery, but started using it again after the alternator replacement.. then it died.
:wall:
So... questions:
Could it be a corroded junction box? How do I find this to determine if it is?
Could it be the alarm system draining the battery somehow? Where the heck do I take it to have that looked at?
Any other suggestions?

We're newly relocated to N. Colorado and these vans aren't as well-known in this area, so haven't found a solid mechanic yet. Most mechanics I've called don't understand what they are, don't know where the engine is, and don't even have the Chillton manual for anything older than 1990. We found this really nice kid who's really reasonable (he replaced the alternator), but it'd be helpful to have some pointers for him.

[timsrv]

Hi & welcome to TVT! Here's a couple of threads that might help:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1719-Starting-Issues-Uurrgghhh

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?136-The-fusible-link-thread

You're on your own with the alarm/remote starter issue. No 2 aftermarket installs are the same & I'm not familiar with the equipment. Maybe somebody else here is. Good luck. Tim

[Aloria]

Thanks Tim!
I had already read the first alternator thread in depth.. hubby and I just perused the fusible link thread and it seems like a great place to go from here. My hunch was it was something like that. Thank you SO MUCH for all the pics and step-by-step instructions. Neither of us is too mechanically-inclined, but we love learning and we're smart people.. at the very least, we should be able to help educate our mechanic friend.

We do still have a small power steering leak (had it fixed in Seattle when we lived there), but it just needs a gasket now. After reading the other thread, I'm inclined to keep our factory alternator rather than get the core charge back, and try to have it cleaned up and have the brushes checked, since it was still testing as good, just weak.

Seems like the fusible link(s) by the battery box were probably what the person on the Toyota Van People post was referring to. I never did get any help on there and found their forum difficult to access, so I'm really glad to have discovered this site.
:thmbup:

[trestlehed]

Aloria,

Ditch that car alarm and remote starter system asap.

Soapbox warning!

This is a copy of a post I've emphasized many times:

I have the Ravelco anti-theft system on 2 of my vehicles. Had Lo-Jack on my Honda, but that only locates your vehicle AFTER it is gone. With a Ravelco the only way to steal your vehicle is with a tow truck.
http://www.ravelco.com/

I know price is a big consideration. Consider this: Lo-Jack requires that they come out and "test" your Lo-Jack battery once a year at the cost of about $80 to $90. So after 5 years of Lo-Jack "testing" (Not to mention the original installation cost) you could have paid for a Ravelco system and been done with it. Wish I had known this when I had Lo-Jack installed on my Honda by the Honda dealer. They never mentioned the yearly "testing" and associated fee. http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif

The Club is worthless. On my old Nissan 4x4 truck the thief just sawed thru my steering wheel and chucked The Club out the door.
Kill switches are good, but they can be found (just like a spare hide-a-key).

Many of us have put lots of time and money into our vans to keep them running. There is no sense in leaving that investment vulnerable to thieves who will benefit from all your hard work.

Also, keep in mind that most insurance companies will give you a discount for a verified anti-theft device.

[Aloria]

trestlehed (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/member.php?11-trestlehed) Are you saying ditch the Viper alarm system because it's junk orr....?? :cnfsd:
Never looked into a different alarm system, and if we ditched this one, not sure we'd install a new one right away.
I'm not entirely sure that's the problem, anyway. I'll post separately about that.

[Aloria]

So.. my first time getting underneath a vehicle. I feel like Rosie the Riveter. I can do it!! :dance2:Okay, okay.

Checked the junction box where the alternator output wire hooks up to the rest of the system, and ruled out a shorted diode (though I guess it could still be an open diode). There was no cover on the junction box, as you can see.. but it looked like it was in pretty good condition.
1398

Next, pulled the FL 1.25B fusible link wire out and opened up the casing. Yes, that white blob is an old spider inside. :yes:

1399

Seemed a little corroded. Sprayed some lubricant on it and got the nuts off so I could examine the FL wire more closely and clean it up a bit.

1400

Whilst cleaning the connectors, one of the rings just fell off. So yes, it was corroded at the solder point where the wires met the ring. At that point, David figured we needed a new one anyway, so might as well inspect the wires inside. Removed the cover and cut the casing open and the wires inside look okay for being 27 years old and exposed to the elements.

1401

Just ordered a replacement wire from Toyotaparts.com but it's going to take them a few days to get it from the warehouse and another 3 days (at least) to ship priority mail. I could've ordered UPS next day for 60 freaking bucks!!! To ship a little wire??? No thanks. :dizzy: So I was a cheapskate and chose USPS priority mail for $7.50. I will not be driving anywhere for at least a week.

One other disturbing thing I found while peering underneath the car, was a mass of duct tape. Really?? Yes. Really.
I'm not brave enough to pull this off yet and find out what's underneath.. just trying to get the van running again right now.
Any comments as to what this is? It's just to the front of the battery box.

1402

Btw, Tim, you are an absolute SAINT for offering all this free step-by-step mechanical advice (with photos, no less) and everyone should have a little shrine built to you on their dashboard.
Thank you!!! :wrthy:

[gushaman]

that looks like the tape is on your air cleaner box. Those plastic housings get brittle, and have a habit of breaking at the screw holes upon attempted removal. A previous owner or mechanic may have temporarily repaired it with tape. A hole here can lead to dirty wet air being sucked into the air filter housing, decreasing the filters usable life.
Oroginal post:
Be brave! When replacing a battery in one of my vans recently i saw a large mass of black tape. Thinking to myself " please dont be wires twisted together" i struggled the tape off. A previous owner had tied the positive cable together after a break and taped it up. I need a new positive cable, but my mend is ok for temporary use.
Another possible problem is that if corrosion has been present at the terminal, then it probably also crept down through the insulation and is in between the actual copper strands in the battery cable. If that is the case it is technically time for replacement. Remember, all that green and white crusty stuff used to be metal.

[Burntboot]

Aloria - Looks like the duct tape is all over the bottom of the air box (where the air filter hides).
No harm in pulling the tape off (you can always put more back on if needed)
I am willing to bet you'll find the bottom of the case is damaged and that's why the tape is there, best to know so you can start the search for a replacement or even just a better repair. One thing to bear in mind, the steel plate that mounts the box to the frame, those little rubber mounts are NLA.
Whatever you do, don't just put a wrench on the nuts and twist them free cause they WILL separate, go ahead, ask me how I know this:pissed:
There is a hexagonal flat on the hidden (rubber) side, if you can get something in there, you may be able to break the nuts free.
I still have mine apart (though I haven't extracted the bracket side bits yet), will head outside in a bit and see if I can get a wrench measurement for you.

Hopefully fixing the FL will solve your issues.

As to the remote starter, back when I was on the desk, my friendly neighbourhood insurance adjuster told me that remote starters are the number one cause of car fires, with A/M alarm systems running a close second, just something to keep in mind.
No doubt the issue has more to do with the installation quality but I have never had the desire to find out first hand.
I do know that anytime we had a car come in with an aftermarket alarm and an electrical issue, the first order of business was to remove the system and repair the associated damage BEFORE we would tackle the electrical issue.
That said, 99% of the time, removal of the alarm system also solved the other issues.
BB

[gushaman]

BB You beat me to it while i was editing my own post! Lol

[thetoaster]

Some food for thought about these issues that haven't been addressed.


First, technically this ones been addresses, that FL looks bad. Hopefully, as others have suggested. replacing it will help the issues you're having.

Second, you state that your battery terminals are clean. That's good. How about where they go to ground on the chassis? Remove those bolts and I'd bet a large sum of money that the contact is corroded. Simple fix with a drill and wire brush combo. While your at it might as well replace the ground wire altogether with something a little larger than stock and eliminate the second point of contact. I would link you to some of my experiences with starting issues but apparently my search skills on this site suck. When I advance search my own user name I get "no matches". lol

Third, it sounds like the alarm system is fine. If it was a parasitic draw problem it wouldn't manifest after the van had been on errands, unless the alternator is still bad. It's easy enough to check with a multi meter and some time to let the van sit. Check google for parasitic draw.

Fourth, just me saying thanks for posting up. Every time I consider selling my van I check this site. Every time I see someone going through the same troubleshooting process I've gone through or might have to go through. Every time I decide the pleasure of driving my van is worth all the little snags that dealing with a 27 year old vehicle brings. :thmbup:

[Aloria]

Thanks guys!
I will check the air box and get brave and pull the duct tape off.. but not yet. Have to focus on getting her running again before I tackle less problematic issues. Also, it just started snowing again and is currently 12 degrees outside, so... probably won't be getting under the van again until tomorrow or Thursday when it's supposed to be up to 58. Gotta love CO (not so sure our Lightship loves it though).

I'm not ready to pull the alarm system yet, because it was fine for the whole first year and a half and this is the first problem of any kind that we've had. If the FL wire doesn't fix the issue, we'll go from there. My electrician friend said if the FL blew, you have to wonder what caused it to blow (besides the obvious factor of it being 27 years old). I'm wondering.

I'll also check where the battery wires go to ground on the chassis and see if the issue could be there.
I'll post an update in a couple of days. Replacement FL wire should be here hopefully by Saturday, or Monday.

[Aloria]

UPDATE:
FL 1.25B fusible link wire arrived in the mail from Toyota today (a few days earlier than expected!).
We replaced it immediately, and tried to jump start the van. At first, nothing but clicks. After a few minutes, it turned over and we let it run for a while (I revved it at 2500 rpm's for a minute or so).
Then, it slowly petered out and died. Again. Siiiiiigh. Wouldn't start without a jump.


Husband did as "thetoaster" suggested and checked the wires that run from the battery to ground on the chassis. Took the bolt out and checked everything.. no corrosion, seemed fine (so it looks like you lost the bet, thetoaster.. and now owe us "a large sum of money!"). :LOL2:


After that, we pulled the battery and took it back to Batteries Plus to have them test it and replace it, since it's still under warranty. It's a 12V battery and when tested, it was putting out just under 9V. They wouldn't give us a new one until they kept ours overnight to charge it up and see if it would hold a charge (next time going to AutoZone, as I hear they'll replace a battery still under warranty, no questions asked). They did give us a loaner though, and now it seems like the van is starting fine with the loaner in.

We just dropped it off at a Metric Motors a few blocks away, to have them run some more electrical diagnostics that are beyond our abilities, and rule out any of the other fusible links and/or the AM alarm system having a parasitic drain on the system. Should hear from them by tomorrow morning.

[djshimon]

I had a problem similar to this on an 1984 van and it was the starter-or wiring to the starter-but a junk yard starter fixed it. Sometimes the rebuilt starters aren't rebuilt so well I guess.
But a battery putting out 9v is very weak-too weak.
Also I think some people had a problem with a wire in the ignition circuit(under the steering wheel).

[timsrv]

Your battery was dead. A dead battery will not start the engine (so that's why it needed a jump). Once started the alternator should have started charging. Since 12 volts is needed for the engine to run, I'm speculating the van quit due to a problem with the charging system (battery could provide it briefly after the jump, but since it wasn't being charged, it lost what little charge it had and the van died). So basically, your root problem is the charging system. All other issues are the result of the battery going dead.

Batteries that don't get charged can't do their job. In regards to warranty, in my opinion, Batteries Plus was generous to offer you a loaner battery. Since a dead battery cannot be evaluated, it needs to be charged and tested before making that determination (doesn't make sense to warranty something before knowing if there's anything wrong with it). I doubt Autozone would handle this any different, but I don't know their policies. Unless you address the root problem (charging system), the loaner battery will quickly become discharged and you'll be right back where you started.

The most likely cause for your charging problem is a failed alternator. The 2nd most likely cause is a damaged alternator wire harness. The 1.25B fusible link can also cause this, but since it didn't solve your problem, there's still another issue. It sounds like you've already read it, but here's a link to an alternator thread that explains charging system issues (and should help with future troubleshooting): http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?335-Alternator-woes.

After you get your charging system issue corrected, DO NOT use the van charging system to recharge a dead battery. Make sure the battery is mostly charged before running the van or damage to your alternator will likely be the result. Good luck. Tim

[trestlehed]

trestlehed (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/member.php?11-trestlehed) Are you saying ditch the Viper alarm system because it's junk orr....?? :cnfsd:
Never looked into a different alarm system, and if we ditched this one, not sure we'd install a new one right away.
I'm not entirely sure that's the problem, anyway. I'll post separately about that.

Car alarms do nothing to protect your vehicle. All they do is annoy your neighbors. If your car alarm wakes you up
and you confront the would-be thief, you could be risking your life.
Remote starters on the other hand are a different security risk. Nowadays the savy car thieves hang out in store/mall parking lot's with scanners and record the remote start codes to use later after they follow you home or elsewhere.
Another thing to consider is that these vans are now so old that, when alarm installers go in under your "hood", there is a good chance they will disturb old & crusty wiring which can cause you even more headaches.
Just things to consider.

The Ravelco sytem is not an alarm system. I know people balk at the price, but if your van goes away for good, it will cost you thousands of dollars to replace it. And insurance companies will only give you bluebook value which nowadays is probably $700 at best.

[Aloria]

UPDATE:
Problem seems to have been solved! Apparently, the re-manufactured alternator we had just put in last week was bad (should be able to return it). Took it to a mechanic for some additional electrical diagnostic testing, and he said the alternator was bad. Once we pulled it and replaced it with a Denso, the starting problem seems to have disappeared... so the new alternator and the FL wire seems to have fixed the issue. All other electrical systems tested normal, and the mechanic did warn us about the AM alarm system as well, but he tested it and it wasn't draining the system in any way. Battery is charged up and good as new. Did a bunch of driving around tonight, stopping and starting.. no problems!
:clap:
Thanks so much for all the helpful advice everyone!

Next week we attack the power steering leak (might replace the pump), try to get the heater working, and maybe even put some new front and rear shocks on.

[timsrv]

I wondered if you got a bad alternator. Back when I was purchasing the cheap "lifetime" alternators I went through 8 or 9 of them in a 10 year period. A couple were bad right out of the box. Switching to the Denso rebuilds (actually rebuilt by Denso) solved the problem. Since switching I've been running the same alternator for the past 5 years / 50k miles with no issues. Charging problems suck. Glad you got it handled. Tim

[Aloria]

And..... 3 years later.. the starting problem is baaa-aack..
(like an ex you got rid of and they show up on your doorstep after 3 years).
1987 TV (it's her 30th birthday!!)

To summarize the lengthy troubleshooting thread from 2014:

- replaced fusible link wire FL 1.25B
- fixed power steering leak as it was leaking onto the alternator
- replaced alternator (twice, because the first one was a bad alternator)
- removed after-market Viper alarm system (cost $200 to remove)
Battery death issue seemed to be resolved and had no issues for 3 years.

Now, it appears there's another electrical ghost in the machine somewhere...
The brake lights have been sometimes sticking on when the car is parked.. can't find an electrical reason why. Lifting the brake pedal up with my foot after parking seems to help this issue and I've made a habit of making sure the brake pedal is pulled up all the way so the brake lights aren't stuck on. No problems for over a year.
Went out today, DEAD.

Any thoughts?

[AD2101]

Now, it appears there's another electrical ghost in the machine somewhere...
The brake lights have been sometimes sticking on when the car is parked.. can't find an electrical reason why. Lifting the brake pedal up with my foot after parking seems to help this issue and I've made a habit of making sure the brake pedal is pulled up all the way so the brake lights aren't stuck on. No problems for over a year.
Went out today, DEAD.

Any thoughts?

A similar thing was happening with my '87 4runner; turns out there's a small rubber cushion (Toyota #47131) inside the cab where the brake switch meets the pushrod(?). Anyways, over nearly 30 years, the switch hitting the rubber cushion time after time made a divot in the cushion itself. When the switch would find its way into this divot, the truck thought the brake pedal was being depressed, and kept the lights on.

It was a two dollar part at the dealership if I remember correctly. I know that was off a 4runner but it's worth a quick looksie at least.

[Burntboot]

And don't overlook the brake pedal switch itself, they can fail over time, when they do the fault will show as one of 2 possibilities, brake lights will stay on or they won't work at all.

In very rare circumstances, even a failing master could be the cause but that is a long shot, though that usually only happens with vehicles that don't get their brake fluid changed on a regular basis, I have only run into that scenario once.

All that being said, at 30+ yes old, just about anything can become an issue hence the need to work through a logical diagnosis, eliminating all the variables as you go. Guessing is expensive.

[Aloria]

This sounds like it could be what's happening..
Would you mind re-explaining this to me in lay(wo)man's terms?
Are the brake switch and pushrod parts under the brake pedal, inside the cab? Or are they further inside or underneath?
If it's not too much trouble and you have a photo, then I could visualize where the cushion for the brake switch is, and maybe I can troubleshoot.
Thanks!


inside the cab where the brake switch meets the pushrod(?). Anyways, over nearly 30 years, the switch hitting the rubber cushion time after time made a divot in the cushion itself. When the switch would find its way into this divot, the truck thought the brake pedal was being depressed, and kept the lights on.

[Aloria]

Thanks!
Can you describe how to locate the brake pedal switch and find out if it has failed or not?
Sounds like a likely possibility, as the brake pedal lights have been staying on (or coming on intermittently when the car is parked and ignition is off).
Can you also define what a "master" is? Do you mean a failing master switch of some kind?


And don't overlook the brake pedal switch itself, they can fail over time, when they do the fault will show as one of 2 possibilities, brake lights will stay on or they won't work at all.

In very rare circumstances, even a failing master could be the cause

[Aloria]

So, I poked my head underneath the brake pedal (good thing I'm flexible!) and I think I found the brake switch and cushion..
The cushion has a little dent in it, but not much.. however, it did seem like the brake switch wasn't being pushed all the way back up unless I lifted the brake pedal by force (which is what I've been doing with my foot).

Is it possible there's also an electrical issue connected to the switch?

It was a little gunky, so I sprayed a little lubricant on the switch and it seemed to move a bit better.
(this photo was taken while depressing the brake pedal with my hand, so I could get a clear shot of the switch/cushion)

5031

[Burntboot]

Looks like you found it.
While the dent doesn't seem like much, its obviously enough to be causing the issue.

You need to clean everything well and verify that the switch moves freely and that the pad is not contaminated by brake fluid, causing it to soften.
-If you look further up the brake pedal arm, you will see the master cylinder push rod that attaches to the brake pedal.
Sometimes a leaky master will dribble brake fluid down the pushrod, onto the brake pedal arm and run down, softening any rubber it meets along the way and cause dirt to be attracted to the switch.

The switch is mounted in a bracket with 2 jamb nuts to allow for final adjustment, usually things set at the factory shouldn't be messed with but in this case, assuming no leaks are found and the pad isn't contaminated, I would be tempted to adjust the switch forward to take up the slack thats causing the switch to stay on.
You want to use 2 open end wrenches I think they are 12mm nuts, but could be 14mm. Hold the forward nut and crack the back nut loose, back off the rear nut, maybe a 1/4-1/2 turn, then, while holding the switch steady, finger tighten the forward nut, this will move the switch forward, once you find the right place, make sure to tighten the jamb nuts (tighten the rear nut, while holding steady the forward nut)
Don't go too far, just enough to shut the lights when the pedal hits home and please verify that the brake lights actually come on with light pressure on the pedal BEFORE going for a test drive.
BB

PS - The "master" referenced earlier would be the Brake Master Cylinder. The pedal movement is transferred to the master by the push rod that's attached to the pedal, the master is a hydraulic cylinder that forces the brake fluid into the lines to the slaves (callipers and wheel cylinders) which activate the pads and shoes.