Van down! What's this part?

[kestrel]

Hey Folks - Driving home from school last night and my van stopped responding to gas, then died. I managed to get it home, but it can't idle for long before shutting off. Smells like weird gas mixture. Not sure if this is related, but also makes a thumping noise when wheel is turned hard to the right. Even in park. Opened her up and found this obvious problem in the attached picture. I'm no mechanic, but maybe I can do this on my own? What is this broken part and is it an easy fix?

Thanks in advance,
Kestrel

12921291

[timsrv]

That's your "Cold Start Temperature Time Switch". With that broken the cold start injector won't fire. the result might be hard starts and/or rough running (stumbling) when cold. Having a broken one would have no effect on a warm engine. Sounds to me like something else is going on. Check your codes and report back. Tim

[timsrv]

The thumping while turning is likely unrelated. Things that come to mind are CV joint(s), motor mount(s), or perhaps no grease on your steering stops. Tim

[kestrel]

Thanks Tim! The van was, in fact, cold. It had been sitting for about 3 hours and I was about 1/8 of a mile on the road when it started having a problem. I'll fix that and see if it does the trick. Is it a pretty straight-forward fix?

Will report back soon!
Kestrel

[kestrel]

The thumping while turning is likely unrelated. Things that come to mind are CV joint(s), motor mount(s), or perhaps no grease on your steering stops. Tim

Thanks. I know I have a problem to fix there. It is odd that it only occured with this new problem.

[timsrv]

Is it a pretty straight-forward fix?


Yes. Just unscrew the old and screw-in the new. This goes into your cooling system so you'll want to do a leak check after (with engine hot) to be sure it seals up. Unfortunately this is an expensive switch. Depending on where you purchase, aftermarket and OEM will cost about the same. Toyota part #89462-20020 has the MSRP of ~$190, but some of the internet discount Toyota parts outlets will sell it for ~$140. Beck/Arnley part #1580034 goes for ~$155 on www.rockauto.com. If Toyota still has these I'd recommend ordering from them. It's not likely your local dealer will have this in stock, so you might as well save the $50 and order on-line. For us in the PNW, www.1stToyotaParts.com is probably who I'd recommend. Tim

[timsrv]

Thanks. I know I have a problem to fix there. It is odd that it only occured with this new problem.

Rough and/or jerky running can amplify and/or expose other issues that may not normally be obvious. I'm guessing after you fix the rough running this may settle down again. Tim

[kestrel]

Hey Tim - What are the other two similar parts adjacent to this one? One is green and one is black and they connect triagonally (is that a word?) to the cooling thingy. ;)

Kestrel

[timsrv]

Here's an image originally posted by RawbSpear (TVT member). The one on top marked "Temperature Switch" is actually the ECU temp sensor. If this one is broken or bad the van will run bad all the time (hot or cold won't matter). The one on the left won't make much difference this time of year (has to do with the pressure-up system for hot soak issues). Tim

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=763&d=1347392437

[kestrel]

well, i'm stumped. i replaced the cold start timing switch and nothing changed. so i replaced the connector too. no change. it tries and tries to turn over (but never does) with and without the switch connected. i suppose it's possible i got a bad part from 1sttoyotaparts, but seems doubtful. gonna go check for stored codes, but any other ideas?

[kestrel]

incidentally, what would make that switch break right in half anyway?

[kestrel]

another thing, i couldn't find a connector specifically for the van model, but a local landcruiser shop sold me a used one ('89 landcruiser). it fit fine, but might it be incompatible?

[timsrv]

None of these sensors being bad or disconnected would keep the van from starting. If it won't even start, then I'd be looking at other things. Check codes & report back. Tim

PS: If the connector fits, and the conductors inside are arranged the same, then you're good.

PPS: Regarding your broken time switch, assuming there's no strain on the wires, I would suspect it took a hit when they were installing the engine. I wouldn't worry about it unless the new one breaks off too.

[kestrel]

None of these sensors being bad or disconnected would keep the van from starting. If it won't even start, then I'd be looking at other things. Check codes & report back. Tim

PS: If the connector fits, and the conductors inside are arranged the same, then you're good.

PPS: Regarding your broken time switch, assuming there's no strain on the wires, I would suspect it took a hit when they were installing the engine. I wouldn't worry about it unless the new one breaks off too.

lost some steam on this, but finally got back to it. code is 51. looked it up, but what do you think?

[kestrel]

lost some steam on this, but finally got back to it. code is 51. looked it up, but what do you think?


looks like what i found here indicates it's likely a failed TPS. is that right? is this fairly easy for a non-mechanic type to fix or should i take it into the shop? she won't even start at this point.

[timsrv]

Having a bad TPS on any van over 150k miles is almost a given............but you just had your engine rebuilt. Are you saying they put an old TPS on a new engine? After rebuild typically comes tuning, and that includes checking codes........unless they skipped all of that they should have picked-up on that and changed it. All this is beside the point though as a bad TPS won't prevent the van from starting. You need 3 things for a gasoline engine to start: compression, fuel, and properly timed spark. The other things (TPS, o2 sensors, cold start equipment, temp sensors, etc will only affect how well it runs, emissions, and economy). For 88 - 89 vans, no spark usually results in trouble codes 12 or 14. Since you don't have either of those I'd skip past checking spark initially. Sudden compression problems are rare (and will make the engine sound different during cranking), so unless you noticed a fast & unusual cranking noise, I'd start out by checking the fuel. You can do that by jumping the "Fuel Pump Test Connector" & turning the key to "Run". At this point the fuel should be flowing and you can hear it if you listen inside the engine bay. If you can't hear it then you have a fuel problem. It's a simple test and only takes a few minutes. It's outlined several times in the forum, so just do a search using the phrase "Fuel Pump Test Connector" and several helpful threads should pop-up. If it's not the fuel system, then go back and check for spark.

To troubleshoot a dead van, here's a few threads that should help:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1715-Van-was-running-great-suddenly-will-not-start-help-for-a-newbie!

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?631-dead-van

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1557-Starting-problem-checked-coil-cap-and-rotor

There are several other such threads, just use the search feature. Good luck. Tim

[kestrel]

Having a bad TPS on any van over 150k miles is almost a given............but you just had your engine rebuilt. Are you saying they put an old TPS on a new engine? After rebuild typically comes tuning, and that includes checking codes........unless they skipped all of that they should have picked-up on that and changed it. All this is beside the point though as a bad TPS won't prevent the van from starting. You need 3 things for a gasoline engine to start: compression, fuel, and properly timed spark. The other things (TPS, o2 sensors, cold start equipment, temp sensors, etc will only affect how well it runs, emissions, and economy). For 88 - 89 vans, no spark usually results in trouble codes 12 or 14. Since you don't have either of those I'd skip past checking spark initially. Sudden compression problems are rare (and will make the engine sound different during cranking), so unless you noticed a fast & unusual cranking noise, I'd start out by checking the fuel. You can do that by jumping the "Fuel Pump Test Connector" & turning the key to "Run". At this point the fuel should be flowing and you can hear it if you listen inside the engine bay. If you can't hear it then you have a fuel problem. It's a simple test and only takes a few minutes. It's outlined several times in the forum, so just do a search using the phrase "Fuel Pump Test Connector" and several helpful threads should pop-up. If it's not the fuel system, then go back and check for spark.

To troubleshoot a dead van, here's a few threads that should help:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1715-Van-was-running-great-suddenly-will-not-start-help-for-a-newbie!

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?631-dead-van

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1557-Starting-problem-checked-coil-cap-and-rotor

There are several other such threads, just use the search feature. Good luck. Tim

okay, well, this is slightly embarrassing. turned out i was out of gas. my gas guage has never functioned properly, so i use the trip odometer to tell when i'm getting low. what this does mean is that i only got about 10mpg on this tank, so that's where i'm relieved a bit of shame. i had been getting 19-21 up until then. so code 51 with 10mpg mean anything different, tim?

kestrel

[timsrv]

Hard to imagine one of these getting only 10 mpg under anything except extreme circumstances. Could somebody have siphoned some gas? Anything that throws the ECU into the default "rich" mode (like code 51) will kill mpg, increase emissions, and decrease performance. I would still expect to see at least 14mpg (unless you're sitting at idle a whole lot, it's stuck in 4wd, or you're doing "hill climbs" off-road or something).

Code 51 is likely the TPS & this is not something to put-off. Aside from the other negative results (mentioned above), running in this mode for too long will start plugging up the catalytic converter. After all the other work you've had done I'd get on this right away (should have been done BEFORE the engine was put back in). You should visually inspect it just in case somebody forgot to attach the harness to the TPS. I've actually done that before :redface:, but you pick-up on that stuff quickly while tuning/adjusting a newly rebuilt engine. Tim

[llamavan]

:whs: What Tim said. Replace the TPS. If there's something else wrong that's eating fuel economy, the bad TPS will just mask the problem and make it harder to find.

Gwen

[kestrel]

so the mechanic said it was not the TPS, which he tested. he said "the only thing i could find wrong was a bad oxygen sensor"...and he replaced it. it's STILL getting terrible gas mileage. thoughts, Tim and Gwen? thanks (as always).

[timsrv]

Clear codes, drive it some more & recheck codes. If #51 comes back you most likely have a bad TPS. These are a common failed part on the van. If it's got more than 150k miles on it or if you don't know how old it is, then I'd just replace. Testing these per the manual is a somewhat involved process. I'm not saying he didn't do it right, but it's hard to imagine your average mechanic going to this much effort (it would be hard to do with the throttle body installed). Even if he did do everything right, when these get old they become intermittent. Bottom line? For a $35 part it's not worth messing with. I replace these like some people replace spark plugs. If I'm doing a tune-up and I see code 51, I won't even mess around with trying to clean or whatever. Just replace it and be done with it :lol:. Tim

PS: If it's newer and you know it's got less than 100k miles on it, then perhaps it's worth a little more consideration. But for me, my time is more valuable than messing with a questionable TPS. Tim

[kestrel]

thanks, tim. i'm going to do it. i see that the part on 1sttoyotaparts.com is almost $70 and on rockauto.com is $32 (beck/arnley). that's a big difference. is it worth spending the extra bux for the toyota part?

[timsrv]

I used to think so, but a while back www.rockauto.com had one of their "closeout" sales and I picked-up "the last 6" of the Beck Arnley #1580503 (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=482317&cc=1279841) units for $18 each. Of course they weren't the last 6 (but were certainly the last 6 I've seen at that price). I took the cover off the 1st one and inspected before installation (thought it looked good). These Beck Arnley units are made in Italy (not sure if that matters) & appear to be of high quality. That was about 4 years ago and I've since used them all (and then some) on different vans I've worked on. I just ordered another one last week (sucked having to pay ~$35 for it), but it's a lot better than $70 something from Toyota. Unless these aftermarket ones start dropping dead, I'm not buying any more from Toyota. Tim

[kestrel]

hi tim - i'm back. i finally got the TPS and am taking the van in on monday to get it replaced. in the meantime, however...since yesterday, in fact...a strong smell of gasoline developed in the passenger compartment. i had a small amount of gas in a can in the back for my lawnmower, so i thought maybe it had toppled over. it had not and it didn't really smell of gas. i looked in the engine compartment and i didn't see anything obvious, but i'm smart enough to know this could be a dangerous situation. got any ideas? should i even risk driving it a mile to my mechanic? anything i can do to keep it from spontaneously lighting on fire? ugh.

thanks,
kestrel

[timsrv]

Your FPD (Fuel Pulsation Damper) is the most likely place for a fuel leak (see picture below).

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3278_zps926f754d.jpg

There are multiple other places as well. The only way to find out is to open the hood and inspect for leaks while the fuel system is active. To reduce the fire hazard, I recommend activating the fuel system by placing a jumper wire in the "Fuel pump test connector". When a a jumper wire is placed between these terminals the fuel system will become active when the ignition switch is turned to "run" (engine not running).

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/13IMG_9014.jpg

As for the risk of driving even a mile, your risk, your decision. Tim

[kestrel]

thanks, tim. i wasn't able to see any obvious leaks and the FPD is pretty dirty (i.e. no solvent cleaning it up), so no obvious signs there either of leaking. i didn't even smell gas with the jumper and "run" in place. as you know, the ground is too wet today to observe drippy-type leakage. i guess i'll find some cardboard to shove under there. short of all that, i'm going to take her to a new mechanic. the one who did the engine, while reasonably priced for service, puts very little effort into the area of diagnostics. guess i'll fork out the big bucks. if you have any other ideas, as always, i'm very grateful.

warm regards,
kestrel

[kestrel]

hey y'all (and tim) - just an update that i was able to see a dripping leak from below. little puddle slightly driver's side of midline, about parallel to the back of the (front) tire. took her in and, on quick look, suspects a leak in the line. we'll see soon enough. thanks!

[timsrv]

Sounds like the FPR or maybe an injector. Either way this will suck for labor on a 4wd van. Good luck. Tim