Yotamog's 4y engine swap

[YOTAMOG]

Leaky headgasket, chatty rods, 335K. Gonna have to buck up and build it or kill it. Looking for:

A solid 4YE or info on how much it's gonna get me to rebuild it myself.

As an option, a 3YEC sounds like a do-able swap but with loss of power.

Ideas?

[timsrv]

I have a 4y in a wrecked van (89 LE auto 4wd). It has about 175k miles on it and is supposed to be good (it was obviously running when the van got t-boned). I already took the gas tank and the transmission out (both were good) and the front suspension is gone. I would want $300 for what's left of the whole van (it's getting pretty stripped), or $400 for just the motor (if you want it pulled and ready to load). I can load it for you with my forklift when you get here. PM me if you're interested. I have title in hand. Tim

[YOTAMOG]

Sweet, thanks for the quick message. Any issues with Auto/5sp difference in motor? More/less power or economy? That makes it pretty easy on me, though the 175K makes me gulp a little. Anything you would do to it other than standard clutch/pp/flywheel attention?

You've got mail.

[timsrv]

I had plans for that engine, but since we've decided to move I doubt I'll have time for the project I was going to use it for. The block, head, power, and economy are the same on both. There are differences with some of the other "bolt on" parts, but those can be swapped from your old to this one. Since yours is an 87 & mine is an 89, the intake manifold along with the injectors will need to be swapped over (just swap the manifold, fuel rail, injectors as an assembly). You will also want to swap and re-use your existing coolant filler neck with it's sensors. You could put the 89 stuff in your 87, but then you'd need to change out the ECU and rework your engine harness. That's more trouble than it's worth, so I'd just stick with the 87 stuff. As far as auto vs manual, the auto has an oil cooler mounted under the oil filter. It has engine coolant routed to it from the bypass port AKA "hose of death port" on the back of the head. I guess they thought the automatics needed it, but that doesn't make a lot of sense because it gets cooled by the engine's cooling system.........and we all know just how trouble free that system is. The oil cooler and the bypass parts could probably get left on there, but for simplicity's sake, I'd probably just swap that stuff out with the components from your manual trans configuration. After that, there's just the flywheel and pilot bearing, but you probably already knew about that stuff.

FWIW, I transplanted the automatic transmission that was in that van and it was nice and tight. I know nothing about that van's history other than a carfax report, but everything else I took off of it was in good working condition.

If you think you want the whole van you'll need to bring a flat-bed with you. All the front suspension and wheels are gone, but I can pick up the whole thing with my big tractor and put it on the trailer for you. Tim

[VanSurfer]

Forklift, Big Tractor, 13 TVs??? Oh man Tim,,, you've got a killer playground for grown up kids!!!:drunk::drool::dance2:

[timsrv]

Yeah, well it's all getting liquidated for the move. I do enjoy playing with the stuff, but you can end up being a slave to it as well. Everything mechanical breaks at some point and the older stuff needs constant attention. When I do get time off from work, the last thing I want to do is change a head gasket or a magneto on an old tractor. So often times the stuff sits broken, then when I really need it (like right this instant), I need to fix before I can use. Frankly I think I'll be glad to be rid of a lot of the stuff........then my free time will be just that. Tim

[VanSurfer]

Everything mechanical breaks at some point and the older stuff needs constant attention.

Noooooo, say it isn't so! I thought you lived where a vortex existed that caused mechanical devices to fix themselves and TVs to gravitate towards. :LOL2: I hear ya on the weight caused by having to take care of multiple "toys." Guess I'll end the thread hijack here.

[timsrv]

I figured this would be a good place to document yotamog's engine swap so I'm posting some pics of it coming out of my parts van. I took the passenger side door off the van, rigged the chain/hook on my cherry picker to the lowest setting & set the chain up on the engine with very little slack. Here it is before lifting:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0184.jpg

I knew it was going to be a tight squeeze, but wasn't sure just how tight until I got to the door opening:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0187.jpg

Check it out.......close-ups of the top & bottom of the door frame :)>::
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0188.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0189.jpg

It came right out without any contact with the van body :clap::
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0190.jpg


Here's the engine after a solvent wash:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/IMG_0200.jpg

Yotamog came by the next day and I loaded it into his Sprinter van with my Toyota forklift......and yes, my forklift also happens to be powered by a 4y :)>: (there's some sort of irony here, but I just can't quite put my finger on it :dizzy:).

Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how this project comes along. Yotamog has agreed to take some pics and document the engine swap here in this thread. :)

[YOTAMOG]

Thanks for the photos, Tim. I have so many good excuses for not starting yet, maybe I could just share a couple... :violn: Like DeNiro said, "I gotta get organizized!"

Yeikes! That was a close shave. Guess that's the way mine is gonna go too. The van repair manual says to lift 3 feet, mmmmKay...

Got any ideas on engine stands? Trying to find a couple to beg, borrow or steal.

[timsrv]

I would have sold you one for $40. You should have said something when you were here :lol: (I ended up with an extra one when I bought my cherry picker). Let me know if you're coming back down this way and we'll make it happen. They are kind of heavy so shipping would be a waste.

I would only lift the van just so you have access enough to crawl under there to remove stuff, then use a cherry picker through the passenger door like I did. Unless you have a hoist/rack, picking the van up 4' isn't practical. Good luck and keep us posted. Tim

[YOTAMOG]

:cry:

Not going that way anytime soon...

[timsrv]

I like your new avatar. I want one of those for Christmas!!!

[YOTAMOG]

Tim, do you think it will be easier to pull the trans before removing the engine or is there room enough with radiator and such removed? I think the donor van trans was gone, right?

[timsrv]

I had previously pulled the automatic transmission on this donor van. You don't need to completely remove your tranny, but you'll need to remove all the bolts from the bell-housing and support the front with a jack or something. Move the engine straight forward until the input shaft on the transmission clears the pressure plate, then you can lift and remove the engine. With the manual transmission I will usually pull with the flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate still attached to the engine. If you want the tranny out too, then drop it out from underneath before pulling the engine. There's definitely not enough room to pull the engine up through the top with the tranny attached. Tim

PS: I want to see pictures! :wave1:

[YOTAMOG]

Glad I didn't tear it down yet, got my big van and trailer with 2500 lbs of sod super stuck today in the back yard- wife asks for a garden, she gets a garden. Sorry, no photos available for that mess. Just 8" deep ruts to fill. :LOL2: Bonus points for pulling out a bogged Sprinter with my Toyota!

[YOTAMOG]

Okay Tim, here we go! A couple images for the beginning: Engine bay with most lines clear, now to unbolt and hoist. Was pretty intimidated with this project for the obvious reason of access but once I started simply clearing stuff out of the way it gets easier to see the remainder. Hope the rest goes this smoothly. And a shot of a successful broken exhaust stud extraction! :dance2:

[timsrv]

Awesome! I'll be watching with interest. I'll be doing this same job on one here soon. Tim

[YOTAMOG]

A successful day- engine came out without much struggle (that hidden bolt behind the clutch hydraulic made me scratch my head for a bit). And those pesky injector-clip-connectors! I split the loom lengthwise and clipped them, butt connectors later... You probably have a secret technique from your years of effort on these rigs, right? Right.

Using a similar setup as Tim, you can see the hook attached without any chain links to the arm of the hoist.
344

With minimum clearance over the valve cover by the chain, like you said Tim, there was at least an inch above and below the engine on the way out the door. E-Z squee-Z.
343

The worst part was navigating the hoist casters over the nasty cold joint and flatwork on the floor. Screed it and call 'er good, boys! :cnfsd:

Now I have them lined up (borrowed stands) and swapping parts will continue tomorrow. I thought about just plugging the end of that cooler line on back of the head as you suggested, Tim, instead I went for the quick swap- glad I did because there is no gasket on that plate and the sealant on the replacement motor was iffy. No more "hose of death port" worries for me.
342

Had to make a run to the hardware store for those m12x90x1.25's- 3 bucks per bolt, ouch!

[timsrv]

If you splice, do it with solder & shrink tubing or put high quality waterproof connectors there (Like Delphi or Weatherpack). Regular butt connectors are not recommended. I used to remove the top half of the intake manifold to undo the injector connections, but anymore I usually just cut the harness where it goes from the van body over to the engine, then build a new injector harness with a removable connection point. Here's a picture:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Engine/86%20LE%20rebuild/IMG_3249_zps1f053fea.jpg

Looks like you're making good progress.........almost 1/2 done! Good luck with the rest. Tim

[YOTAMOG]

Ahh, yes, much better technique. And what about torque on those upper-inner manifold nuts? Pretty hard to get an accurate read with a universal on a long extension.

[timsrv]

To be honest I don't use a torque wrench nearly as much as I should :redface:. After years of turning wrenches I like to think I have a "calibrated wrist" :wnk:. If you're not sure how tight to make them just follow the sequence and guess at the less accessible ones. Once you achieve final torque on one of the more accessible ones, feel how tight it is (using whatever combination of tools you need to use on the unaccessible spots). Once you have a feel for it try to approximate the same tightness using feel or touch.

NOTE: Be sure to follow torque sequence and keep all nuts evenly torqued (as much as possible) before applying final torque to any of the nuts. Tim

[djshimon]

did you make the same mistake as I did with the injector connectors and remove them when you didn't need to? i'd like to see your remedy to this if that was what you did. i'm slightly stuck at this point although I haven't really had much time lately too.
well, good luck, aaron

[YOTAMOG]

All I can say is that if (when) I do this again, I would split the air chamber from the intake manifold early in the game, maybe even before removing the engine. Yes, it takes a few more minutes and buys another gasket (at least one) but saves headache and stress (super easy to unclip injector wires and unbolt manifolds).

While preparing to separate, I broke the EGR from the base. Bummer! Thinking about JB Weld, I turned around and saw the OLD 4y manifold and realized I have a replacement! :yes:

Hoping this information is not too repetitive, I also found there to be a heat shield on the old engine that blocks the two upper, center nuts. While nothing is impossible, the screws that attach the shield to the manifold are REALLY HARD TO GET TO. :swear: But remember: these are Vanwagons.

Shown is the old 4y with "bugger" heat shield.
347

Here's the transplant 4y with the manifolds bolted (and torqued!), tons of carbon removed and ready for Toyota to call me with that parts order! *note the "clipped" wires to #3 & 4... ugghh.
348

[YOTAMOG]

Van is up and running, sounds pretty smooth. :clap: Didn't want to start on the "mid" range of the distributor, so played with it for a minute and found the only way it will run is turned all the way clockwise (retarded) as far is it will go, maxed in the range of the adjustment. Timing, with the terminals jumpered, sits at about 40 degrees, barely on the scale. I can understand being off by 180, done that before but ?? Sniffed around for vacuum leaks, so far nothing. It's so nice and quiet now with those wicked exhaust leaks fixed, I can actually hear the air sucking inside the chamber as I rev it a bit. :thmbup:

No codes on the dash, compared the dist. from the donor, same lineup of the shaft and rotor. The only thing I can think of to do is move #1 wire on the cap to #4 positon, and so on, then advance it as far as it will go. :cnfsd:

Hoping it's something simple- any suggestions, ideas?

[timsrv]

It sounds like the distributor is a tooth off. it should be at 12 deg BTDC with the distributer close to the center of adjustment (with the check engine connector jumpered). Glad you're making good progress. It's always nice to fire it up for the 1st time and not hear knocks :)>:. Tim

[YOTAMOG]

Well, it knocked and rattled like a German tank until everything pumped up. Took a few minutes to tighten up a couple fuel leaks, top off the coolant, etc.

I will try to adjust again- I thought of that and tried it, maybe those gears are harder to move than what I gave them. Just gotta lift the distributor out a bit for clearance on the end of the shaft (oil pump?) and then reef on the rotor?

I must have been tired! :dizzy: I'll try again today fresh...

[timsrv]

The distributor gear uses a helical type screw gear with the oil pump drive (like a slot tip screwdriver) right below it. This can make it a little tricky to line-up but it's pretty easy once you're familiar with what's required. As you remove the distributor this will cause the rotor to turn, so it's a good idea to line up the rotor in an easy to remember position (for reference) before you start (like straight forward or straight back). Then grab the rotor and "feel" the gear engagement by gently rocking it back and forth as you lift. You will know when the gears are clear when the resistance to rotation is gone. I usually find (by feel) the edge of the gears in this fashion, then rotate the rotor just a couple degrees in the desired direction, then drop the distributor back down with gears misaligned. Once it's resting on the misaligned gears, slowly continue rotating until the gears line-up and the distributor drops down.

This should do the trick for gear alignment but the oil pump drive may not drop into place (leaving the distributor slightly elevated off it's mount base). If that happens don't force it down! Just let gravity hold it there and crank the starter until the distributor drops the rest of the way down. At that point you can put the mount screw back in, reinstall the cap, and adjust your timing. Tim

[YOTAMOG]

Tim, :wrthy:

Running like new, thanks so much for the help and encouragement.

That technique worked perfectly, except I used a long flat screwdriver to adjust the oil pump slot-gear. Took a couple tries to line it up exactly but idling like a dream now and drove it up Hurricane Ridge Road to the campground in 4th gear! Time for that trip to Baja! :yes:

Found one custom mod that you might like, check out the lower radiator hose sheath over the power steering pump line: Was looking for something to protect it and almost cut it up, now I carry a spare everyplace I go!
350

And a shot of the happy van:
349

[YOTAMOG]

did you make the same mistake as I did with the injector connectors and remove them when you didn't need to? i'd like to see your remedy to this if that was what you did. i'm slightly stuck at this point although I haven't really had much time lately too.
well, good luck, aaron

Aaron, what do you mean by not needing to? Doesn't appear that there is a main connector to the injectors, the only other way seems to be disconnect (long way) or cut. Very curious...

[timsrv]

Nice! Success at last! I used to run up Race Street towards the ridge while test driving rigs sometimes. That was way back when I worked at Wilder Toyota as a tech.............many many years ago. Tim

PS: Your van looks sharp! I like your rims.

[YOTAMOG]

Oh yeah, it feels good to have checked that one off the list.

My neighbor gave me those wheels from his Rocky and the deer buster up front, dressed it up in a hurry. Nice to put the summer wheels on again, gives me hopeful feelings that it might warm up soon.

Anybody need '89 components? I'm looking for a gray console...

Advice I would give to somebody looking make this swap is to just get your parts list ordered and go for it. It honestly wasn't anywhere as difficult as I thought it could be. Like the guy at the radiator shop said a few days ago, "Just because you don't know how to do something today doesn't mean you can't learn how to do it tomorrow."

Plus there are amazing resources like this that make it more do-able. I learned a ton.

Maybe this is the end of the engine swap dialogue? Hopefully won't be needing to do another one for 10 more years! Maybe just a different fuel burner, methane, moon dust or something, who knows?

[timsrv]

Yeah, I noticed today fuel prices were over $4 per gal??? WTF? I'm still burning gas I paid $2.69 per gal for. I got about another 6 months worth then I'll need to fill my storage tanks again. Hopefully it will drop down again by then???

[YOTAMOG]

You just noticed the price was over $4? Where have you been, under a van? :LOL2:

[djshimon]

I think we may be talking about a different clip. When I was removing the injectors and fuel rail as one I removed my injector electrical connectors and they were very brittle(It was unnecessary what I did anyway). Three of them chipped on a corner and it seems I need to splice them with a new clip/connector or replace the connectors with new ones. Either way I just need to get to it and do it. But i'm at the beach right now so it's outta sight, outta mind.
You had to switch flywheels too right? Because you took a newer automatic engine and put it in your manual?
Glad you got it up and running!
-aaron

[timsrv]

You just noticed the price was over $4? Where have you been, under a van? :LOL2:

I typically only purchase fuel once a year (to have my big storage tanks filled), then I fill up here instead of gas stations. So typically gas prices are not an issue except late summer/early fall (when I have my tanks filled) :)>:.

[YOTAMOG]

Tim, van ran perfectly for the first week. Then, while driving to Neah Bay, it started to sputter and miss off and on. Still runs okay, just really rough now. Took the plugs out today to have a look and they are all quite oily but not fouled- oil all up the threads.

363

Removed cap and rotor, cleaned them up too, ran a bit better after this operation. The cap, rotor and wires are not new but were replaced last summer so I ran them anyway. :wall: AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

Maybe needs hotter plugs or ignition issue? It ran similar to this before the swap, spent much $ trying to smooth it out, then determined the head gasket to be kaput. Nearly back where I started last fall, except this motor is really smooth despite the chronic miss.

Think I will just get the new cap, rotor, plugs, wires and some good injector cleaner. Dislike throwing money at problems, would rather go to the casino and try my luck. :(:

[timsrv]

Have you checked codes?

[YOTAMOG]

No codes come up.

New plugs today, checked distributor out and found a pretty sloppy shaft. Luckily I have a few spares these days. Swapped the best distributor and coil, which is low in primary resistance (0.6) according to the tech book (1.2-1.5). Upon test driving, code #6 came up, (distributor) so pulled the EFI fuse and now it's all clear. Probably gonna go for the new coil if you don't have any other tricks up your sleeve.

Checked compression today- 167, 174, 179, 178. Definitely feel the power difference, the old motor was in the high 120's to low130's.

[YOTAMOG]

Okay Tim, just reading your dialogue with EZHIKER on the Sick Van thread. Seems like it could go either way- coil or igniter. Unfortunately I don't have a test igniter, is there another way to test it? Book says just to try another one. As far as coils go, I have always thought they were of the "go or no go" sort.

[timsrv]

Coils are a pretty common failed item on these vans. Igniters can fail but not nearly as frequently as coils. Coils can outright fail, they can "sort of fail", they can make the van run sick, and they can fail intermittently. Intermittent failure is usually moisture or heat related. Tim

[YOTAMOG]

Thanks for all you do, Tim. Gonna plug in that new coil tomorrow. Hope it zips!

[YOTAMOG]

Another crossroads: Just for kicks I tested the new coil before installing, it has the same resistance as the one in the van. Feeling less than confident that spending $110 on this will be a solution. I'm gonna play with it for a bit, maybe something obvious jumps out at me.

[YOTAMOG]

Going to return the coil as the van is now running pretty good. Not perfect but I don't have any hair left to pull out. :no:

Thanks to a recommendation from a tech at Toyota, I ran a bottle of Techron through it and noticed improvement immediately. Just finished the 2nd tank with that golden juice (thanks to the wife's 100 milers daily) and only spits and complains briefly on initial warm-ups and a bit now and again at speed.

Pretty happy for now. :clap:

Won't be filling up at that "REINO" place again, that's for sure. "You get what you pay for."

[timsrv]

I'm glad to hear it's tolerable. FWIW, the problem most likely lies somewhere in the equipment you re-used off the old engine. A long-block related problem would be excessive oil consumption, antifreeze going places it's not intended to be, and/or noises like knocks and rattles. If it burns less than 1 quart oil every 500 miles, the fluids stay where they're supposed to be, and there's no bad noises, then the block and head are most likely fine. Hesitation and or rough running are typically caused by external components. Tim

[gushaman]

Since yours is an 87 & mine is an 89, the intake manifold along with the injectors will need to be swapped over (just swap the manifold, fuel rail, injectors as an assembly). You will also want to swap and re-use your existing coolant filler neck with it's sensors. You could put the 89 stuff in your 87, but then you'd need to change out the ECU and rework your engine harness.

Hmmmmm..........
I have a question if you guys dont mind:
could I take a 3y that needs to be re ringed out of an 84 van and replace it with a 4y, but use the 3y head, intake fuel rail etc...? would it be o.k. considering the computers are different? or is it just as easy to swap the computer too and just have a 4y 84?
i know your post isnt really related, but it made me think of this option. it could be the difference between a $300 engine swap and a $1500 engine rebuild.

[timsrv]

Sure, you can pretty much do anything like that. There is good interchangeability between blocks & heads so none of that would be a problem. For various reasons I would leave the emissions, computer, & harnesses alone. When it comes to the bottom end, the van won't know any difference. For all intensive purposes you will simply have a 2.2 liter 3y. When it comes to the computer and sensors the older stuff is a bit more simple anyhow, so as far as reliability, there's less to go wrong :). Tim

[gushaman]

if my choice is between an 88 and an 89 which would be the better choice, given similar mileage and condition

[timsrv]

The 89 is 1 year newer.............other than condition there are no physical differences.

[gushaman]

cool thanks. i think im gonna try a pullapart 89 engine block. it has 188k but it turns freely and i can hear it compressing air and opening the valves when i turned the ring gear and torque converter. the other van there would not turn in neutral.

thanks

[Mikesta]

Thank you for posting all this. Looking for an engine for my 89 5 speed now. Seems like a pretty simple swap with lots of lessons learned here.