repairs to sneak in with a rebuild

[kestrel]

Heya folks - I'm very likely going to get my 1989 4X4 van engine rebuilt. I've gotten some great advice on the best direction to take this from Tim, but I'm also wondering what other repairs would be best to "sneak in" with the rebuild. I've read I should replace the water pump, fan clutch and thermostat while we've got the thing in pieces, but are there other parts you'd recommend replacing? I'd rather get it all done at once than have to go back in later. I'm fairly certain most parts on the van are original at 210k and I am the second owner.

Thanks in advance!
Kestrel
:silvervan:

[kestrel]

anybody? any advice is appreciated!

[djshimon]

Anything I could say would probably be reiterating what Tim said-which you should take as the gospel, seriously.
I'd say, FPD, FPR, get injectors checked for flow and replace all seals on them, fuel filter, motor mounts. Probably some more things have slipped my mind at the moment.

I'm in the middle of this project too. I'm almost done with the tear down-it sure is involved. I'd like to hear your experience so far...
Who's doing the rebuild, you or a shop? How much $ will it cost, what shop?

o.k. well good luck to us,
aaron

[timsrv]

Get a good "Master Rebuild Kit" like the one I got (just go to my blogs and follow my project). That will include tons of stuff, but I wouldn't use the gaskets (at least not the head gasket). I got a complete engine gasket kit from Toyota. Watch the timing gear clearance (read about it in my blog). I show in great detail what to watch for. Since you're replacing cam & lifters, I would also recommend replacing all push rods (not included in the kit). Surprisingly enough I found they were the cheapest from Toyota (about $7 each). I would also buy all new head bolts......at least the big ones (I wouldn't worry about re-using the smaller ones). Definitely buy the Toyota piston ring set............you'll see why if you read my blog. Get a new water pump (not included with the rebuild kit).

Aaron is right about the fuel system stuff. Get a new FPR (fuel pressure regulator) and a new FPD (Fuel pulsation damper). I've been experimenting with aftermarket stuff as Toyota is getting too darned high. I got bit with an aftermarket FPR as the banjo bolt hole was not quite straight with the washer surface.......and it leaked. I had to crank the piss out of it to make it stop, then it only lasted a few months and the pressure went too low. Toyota will want close to $150 for that (if they still have them) but it's worth it. So far I've had good luck with the aftermarket FPD. Definitely have your injectors cleaned/checked out before putting them back into service. Probably a good idea to replace the injector connectors. Here's a thread that talks about injector cleaning: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?522-Other-parts-to-replace-while-replacing-Head-Gasket

Then of course there's all the rubber parts, belts & hoses. Like Aaron said replace the motor mounts. If you're skimping you could probably re-use the passenger side, but the driver's side is the one that usually breaks (so at least replace that one). In case you haven't already seen it, here's a link to my "engine rebuild part 1" blog entry: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/entry.php?37-4yec-Engine-Rebuild-part-1. The blogs are a bit confusing to navigate through, but if you go in order it's easy to follow. When you get to the bottom of that 1st entry, click on the "next" button & repeat until you get to the last one. I'm sorry that I never quite finished the rebuild blog entries, but I got through all the stuff most people have all the trouble with. One of these days I'll finish it (probably with another engine). Good luck & have fun. Tim

PS: We've covered a lot in the forums, so if you have a question or get stuck, search the forum. If you can't find what you need please post & I'll direct you to the thread you need or answer your question to the best of my ability :thmbup:.

[kestrel]

Thanks Tim and Aaron! I'm going to be taking her in on Monday for the big surgery. Here is the list I developed for the mechanic compiled from a few sources. Starred/bolded items are meant to be genuine toyota parts. Any thoughts on the water pump being toyota or aftermarket? I want to do it right so I don't have to do it again. Any other additions and/or specifics on these items much appreciated.

*Toyota - complete engine gasket kit
*Toyota - all push rods
*Toyota - piston ring set
*Toyota - thermostat
*Toyota - fuel pressure regulator

any needed belts and hoses
Master Rebuild kit (but not the head gasket)
new head bolts......at least the big ones (your call on the smaller ones).
new water pump
aisin fan clutch (I have one)
Fuel pulsation damper
Coolant sensor
injectors cleaned/checked out
injector connectors
motor mounts. at least replace driver’s side. Both if you think it’s needed/better.

If a new radiator is needed, a high-efficiency core from:

Ability Radiator
260 A Garden Hwy
Yuba City, CA 95991-5500
(530) 673-0813; ask for Greg

[timsrv]

Yes, that's a good list for starters. Some things you'll need to play by ear. VSV's (Vacuum Switching Valves) come to mind. While it's apart be sure to check them all. Simply apply 12vdc to the contacts & blow through the ports. As long as it clicks when power is applied, and the routing of air changes, it's good. If there's no change, then it's bad. Toyota usually wants around $150 each for these, but I would never pay that unless it was the only option. Most of the pick-n-pull salvage yards will sell to me for around $5 each, and I usually snatch these things up when I'm there.

There are other such things you'll most likely need to test & replace. Most things have test procedures outlined in the service manual. You might as well order the BVSV from Toyota as it's almost a given that will break when you remove it (if it isn't broken already). As for the water pump, I got a bunch of those off rockauto.com a while back for $12 each, and they all turned out to be new OEM pumps. If I remember right I believe they were marketed as Beck Arnley pumps. It's hit & miss with aftermarket though as sometimes you get complete junk. The reason this happens is sometimes aftermarket companies buy items from Toyota, then mark them up to resell. At some point parts become obsolete or don't sell well so these companies will dump them at discount prices. Sometimes Toyota dumps large amounts of obsolete parts into the aftermarket part world for pennies on the dollar & these companies will snatch them up and resell under their brand names.

I know you asked me previously about Portland Engine Rebuilders and I wasn't familiar with them. I asked around and heard glowing reports. One of my regular customers builds show quality hot rods & restores classic cars. He uses them exclusively and is very happy. The two guys that run the place have racing backgrounds and pay high attention to detail (according to him), so I think I'd feel good trusting them with my machine work. Have fun & report back as needed. I'd like to see some pics of your project and get updates from time to time. Tim

[kestrel]

Great, thanks for all the extra info. I haven't heard of Portland Engine Rebuilders. I am going with M and B Cylinders. I clicked with the guy there and he seems to love Toyota engines. He's got racing background too. I think he'll do a good job for me. I'll keep you updated on the project.

Fingers crossed,
Kestrel

[djshimon]

I was the one asking about Portland Engine Rebuilders. They quoted me 2200$ for a full rebuild from bringing in a dirty long block. M and B cylinder head is where I had my head done and it looks great(not that I have prior experience to go on)-He's the one that told me it was probably the 4th piston with a stuck ring just by seeing the head. I may bring my block in there too. Hope they don't mix up our blocks! -just kidding.

[kestrel]

ha! well, i'm glad to have some sort of endorsement on M and B. my gut tells me they'll do a great job, but it's been wrong before, especially after a night of spicy food. ;)

[djshimon]

Hey Kestrel, is the guy from M and B gonna get you a rebuild kit(pistons and timing set,etc)?

[kestrel]

That's what I'm requesting, yes.

[kestrel]

hey tim - i provided my list to the mechanic who is working on my van. the only things he had questions about were:

1. injector connectors - he said he doesn't often see these go bad, so wondered if there was something important or different about them that makes it a good idea to replace them

2. radiator from yuba city - he was also curious about going that far for a radiator. i told him it's impossible to get a new one for a 4x4, but he wondered if there was something special about this joint doing a high-efficiency recore.

thoughts?
kestrel

[timsrv]

On the 4y engine the exhaust manifold is on the same side as the intake (lots of heat in this area). Then there's the top half of the intake that wraps around and covers the injectors (further trapping of heat here). Then there's the fact these are mid-engine vehicles and that means there's no venting of trapped heat from the engine compartment (hot air rises and the only place for it to go would be inside van, therefore the top of our engine compartments are sealed. Standard car configurations have much better venting as the heat can rise and escape through the crack around the periphery of the hood and out through the grill.

In short, all this trapped heat has an adverse effect on rubber and plastic parts. On high mileage vans, it's been my experience that the locking mechanisms for the injector connectors break off when they are squeezed to unlock. If yours don't break and if they don't seem brittle, then perhaps you could re-use. When I replace, I usually go to the salvage yard and rob these off of Subarus. Models from the 90's use this exact connector but they are in a cool & easy to access location. The connectors I've pulled from Subarus have been in pristine condition. You can also purchase these new from aftermarket sources, but I'd be worried about the quality of plastic they use. When it comes to plastic parts like this, I personally would trust used OEM (that's had an easy life) more than I'd trust new aftermarket.

Other radiator shops can also do this job, but the 4wd takes a specific core that many radiator shops don't know how (or won't try) to find (most shops like to use specific brands of cores and very few brands will offer one suitable). The shop in Yuba city has done a lot of these and they are familiar with our radiators. I believe they even have a specific build number for our radiators. In addition their price is very competitive (this would likely off-set shipping charges). Tim

[kestrel]

Hey Tim - Just writing to update on the rebuild progress. I decided to go with M and B Cylinders in Portland, OR. Brian who owns the place loves Toyota engines and we talked quite a bit about the rebuild before I made my decision. He had me in the shop midway through the process to give me a sense what needed to be done. I did have a blown head gasket after all, but the engine was not in too bad of shape. Anyway, the team at M and B is really great. Of course, I won't know until I drive that sucker around for a while, but thought I'd offer an intermediate update on its progress. I've included some pics. They did a beautiful paint job for me. It's hard to tell but that's a really nice metallic blue. It's the small things I guess. ;)

11761177117811791180

[timsrv]

Oh yeah, engine porn! How'd you know I had a 4y fetish? Thank you for that :thmbup:.

[kestrel]

lol! i felt the same way when i saw it, tim! i didn't want to leave the shop. glad you appreciate it.

[kestrel]

i don't know if you noticed on the last picture...the purple haze above the engine. i'm pretty sure i was about to be raptured along with the engine.

:LOLabv:

[djshimon]

That looks fantastic.
Did they bore the cylinders and/or redo the head? That was a quick turnaround.

[kestrel]

they did both, djshimon. neither were in too terribly bad shape but enough to have lost a decent amount of compression and fuel economy. i'm itchin' to get her back on the road to see if she's as smart as she is pretty. ;)

[kestrel]

Hey Tim - I'm having a bit of a dilemma. My mechanic says I need a new radiator, but doesn't seem too keen on getting it recored in Yuba City. He says it's REALLY corroded and recommends getting a new four row, instead of going to the trouble of sending it to Ability. I can push the issue, but is there any reason NOT to go new if it is, in fact, a high-efficiency four row and is comparably priced?

Part of the issue is time, as well, since it's been at the shop for over a month and I'm getting ready to get take it on a long trip. I don't want to delay too much longer so I have time to get it out on the road and make any needed adjustments before the longer trip. Any thoughts are very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Kestrel

[kestrel]

P.S. mechanic says the radiator is the copper kind (NOT plastic). He's not sure if it's three or four row, but he'll find out in the morning. If it DOES turn out to be four row, copper, and high-efficiency, any reason not to jump on it? It's about 100$ less than Ability and will shave off 3-4 days of waiting. I don't want to make a bad choice here just to save a little time and money, but if all else is equal, does it seem like a safe bet?

[timsrv]

If he knows where to get a new 4 row radiator that will fit the 4wd van, please find out where and let the rest of us know. For that matter, if he can get a new 4wd van radiator with ANY number or rows, please let us know. I'm guessing he hasn't tried to find one yet & doesn't yet know they are NLA. To my knowledge nobody makes the 4wd Toyota van radiators anymore (let alone one with 4 rows). Tim

[kestrel]

will do, tim. he said he got a price and a 3-day ship quote, so he must have something. i'll post tomorrow when i find out more. i guess that means you think i should go ahead with it if it's true. if it's three row, should i get then even? or hold out for a 4 row?

[timsrv]

I don't know. Everybody has their opinions. Some shops (most actually) will recommend you purchase through them mostly because they make money. Nothing wrong with that as we all need to make a living. I guess I'm questioning his motives.........does he really think the one he has is better, or is it only because he'll make some money? To my knowledge nobody has had any problems with the recored Yuba City radiators. I have however had problems with the new (thin) radiators. The last new Spectra I purchased had a leak between the P/S tank & the core, so I had to wait for a replacement & do the job twice. My personal attitude is new (compared to original) is thin & cheap.

Recored radiators get a bad wrap but I've always had excellent luck with them. I guess the quality will depend on the grade of core you get and who installs it. The only old parts used on recores are the tanks (everything else is brand new). I suppose there can be circumstances where corrosion causes 25 year old tanks to fail, but I haven't seen it. I rather doubt your tanks are corroded to the point of needing to be replaced, but I don't know as I haven't seen them. I have yet to see tanks on a new radiator that are better than the tanks of 25 years ago (even after 25 years of use). As for performance, stock/standard cores do not cool as well as high efficiency cores. On vehicles without inherent cooling system problems, this might not matter. The van however tends to run hot, so IMHO, I think high efficiency is the better choice. Of course there's the airflow issue, and if you don't get enough airflow it won't matter how efficient the core is. Example: If the airflow is only enough to dissipate 200,000 BTU's and the stock radiator is capable of 210,000 BTU's, then it won't do you much good to have a radiator capable of 300,000 BTU's. I have no idea what the actual numbers are, I'm just making them up for the sake argument.

Your guy might know more about this than I do, and if he really thinks you'll be better off with his radiator, then do what he recommends. If you want an expert opinion, go down to a radiator shop and ask the manager what he thinks. I'm really hoping your guy knows of a secret source of new high quality 4wd van radiators, but I'm guessing he's going to get a 2wd Spectra or CFS radiator, then find out it won't fit (4wd's have shorter radiators due to the front differential being in the way). Anyhow, that's just my .02 cents. Do what you think is best and let us know how it turns out. Tim

PS: If you go with new, save your old radiator and I'll give you whatever the core charge is + $20. :wnk:

[kestrel]

so the mechanic says it's from 1800radiators. i called them and sure enough he said "i show the same part for 2wd as 4wd." so sounds like it's bogus afterall. woulda wasted an additional three days to get it here and find out it doesn't fit. just gonna go ahead with the recore.

[timsrv]

That sucks. When we moved I got hit by tweaker metal thieves. They got all my extra 4wd radiators I had stored inside one of my parts vans (along with several other parts) :pissed:. I was hoping I could score your core, then I was going to send it to Yuba City. :yes:. Glad you got it figured out before going through the shipping/return hassle. Tim

[kestrel]

so we're on our west coast road trip with our newly rebuilt engine. she's running really well...getting 21 MPG and feeling strong. i've attached a picture for fun. she is showing intermittent rad and engine lights. i'm chalking it up to quirkiness, as there aren't any other problems. there's been no use of oil beyond a 1/4 quart in the first 500 miles. the radiator is using about a 1/2 pint of coolant every 1000 miles or so. i did a high-efficiency 4-row recore with Ability, but is this normal/okay? it hasn't overheated at all and i know the rad light is due to a bad coolant sensor. any thoughts are (as always) appreciated.

happy new year, y'all!
1240

[timsrv]

The engine coolant circulates in a closed system, so if you're losing coolant then there's a leak. No big deal as long as you add prior to it getting low, just a hassle. It's not unusual for the coolant recovery bottle to leak from the bottom, so check that. There's a rubber grommet there that gets soft and falls apart. Unfortunately the only way to get that grommet is to purchase the coolant level switch & that sells for ~$100 from a discount Toyota parts site (MSRP is more). If your engine light is coming on that means there's a code stored. Put it into the diagnostic mode to see what it is. Tim

[djshimon]

:thmbup:.
Glad to hear the rebuild is working out. Am definitely interested in where the coolant and oil is going... Have fun!

My van is getting real close to being, "on the road again" and I can't wait.

[timsrv]

Oh yes, congrats! :wave2: 1/4 qt in 500 miles is not abnormal for a new engine. Oil consumption will likely get better as the rings finish breaking in. Even if it stays the same, that's not terrible. Of course 1/4 qt in 500 miles is hard to confirm. Once you hit 2k miles on the same oil, that's when you'll know for sure. Tim

[kestrel]

The engine coolant circulates in a closed system, so if you're losing coolant then there's a leak. No big deal as long as you add prior to it getting low, just a hassle. It's not unusual for the coolant recovery bottle to leak from the bottom, so check that. There's a rubber grommet there that gets soft and falls apart. Unfortunately the only way to get that grommet is to purchase the coolant level switch & that sells for ~$100 from a discount Toyota parts site (MSRP is more). If your engine light is coming on that means there's a code stored. Put it into the diagnostic mode to see what it is. Tim

hey tim - checked the diagnostic codes and got a 12 and 25. seems like that leaves a lot of possibilities open...gonna take her in this week for final diagnosis. will have the coolant issue checked out too. the rest of the trip revealed absolutely no coolant loss for a 1000 miles than about a quart after about 400 miles. very strange.

[timsrv]

Code 12 is likely left over from initial prep for start. It's common to disable the ignition and crank until oil pressure comes up 1st, then enable & start. I'm guessing they disabled by disconnecting the igniter & didn't think to reset codes after they got it going. Code 25 can be several different things. Depending on what was included with the rebuild you could probably rule some things out. Did you get new injectors or have your old ones cleaned/tested? Due to the labor to access + age I started doing this every time there's access. Our injectors are pretty tough and might not need any attention, just a good idea to be sure. Tim