Searching for a short

[Suzu]

Hi all, I hope I can find some help here to keep the cost of fixing my van down.

My battery always goes down when the van is parked. I had it fully charged today and tested with a multimeter all of the fuses under the glovebox. There was a draw of 4.24 - 4.26 and this didn't change when any of those fuses were pulled. Are there any more fuses I need to check? Do I need to disconnect the alternator and check that? What about the starter? What if checking all those things doesn't find the issue, what's my next step?

I should mention that occasionally, even when the battery is charged enough to start, I get no response when turning the ignition - no dash lights, no clicks, nothing - but if I have it jumped, then it will start without a problem the next time, even if it's shut off right after the jump and then attempted with the key. Also, when I am driving and push the accelerator pedal, all of the dash lights come on and stay on until I remove my foot from the accelerator.

I've owned this van since it was brand new and this is the first serious trouble with it. The alternator was replaced not that long ago and so was the water pump, and I had the starter rebuilt by a mechanic who specializes in Toyotas. He's really good, but I don't live near him anymore.

The problem started around the time I had the radio and horn replaced. The guy who did it might have caused a problem, or it might just be a coincidence, but I've had the radio disconnected ever since then. The new horn is on the dashboard because he couldn't figure out how to do it inside the steering column. Neither of the dome lights have worked in years, even with fresh fuses and light bulbs, they will not work, and I don't know why.

I've replaced the battery twice in the last year. Right after replacing the battery the first time, I couldn't start the van at all, even with jumper cables. Another mechanic rigged up a new positive battery cable with fusible link wire. Before this trouble occurred, the dashboard lights were staying on all the time even when idling.

Maybe all these details can yield some clues to more mechanically inclined forum visitors. I really don't know much about fixing cars, and I haven't got much money (none, really) but I need this vehicle to keep running and would really prefer to be able to use the radio and to not have to always disconnect the battery when it's parked.

That's about all I can tell you about the electrical condition of this van. Thanks for reading and for any suggestions.

P.S. I know about not removing the key without using the button to lock it. I've never done it.

[timsrv]

Hi & welcome to TVT! When you say the alternator was recently replaced, did this issue start before or after? An amp draw like this is almost certainly a shorted diode inside the alternator. Having "Christmas dash" is also an indication of a failed alternator, so I'd start by disconnecting the alternator & checking to see if the draw goes away. Here's a good thread that outlines this test and much more: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?335-Alternator-woes. Tim

[Suzu]

Hi & welcome to TVT! When you say the alternator was recently replaced, did this issue start before or after? An amp draw like this is almost certainly a shorted diode inside the alternator. Having "Christmas dash" is also an indication of a failed alternator, so I'd start by disconnecting the alternator & checking to see if the draw goes away. Here's a good thread that outlines this test and much more: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?335-Alternator-woes. Tim

It wasn't *that* recent, but not a whole lot of miles have been driven since it was put in - 15k more or less.

Thanks for the tips. That alternator thread is WONDERFUL with all the pictures!

[timsrv]

Be sure to read the part about cheap aftermarket rebuilds. IMHO Denso rebuilds (actually rebuilt by Denso) are the only way to go. Part numbers, etc are in that thread. Tim

[Suzu]

Oh, I sure did get that message, timsrv, and will heed the advice.

ISTR a steering fluid leak some time ago that may have damaged the alternator. Your very clear instructions will help find that out.

But before I go there, I wanted to check a few more fuses that I couldn't get to. There are vertical ones to the right of the horizontal ones under the glovebox - #19 and #20 - but there's a cover attached over them and I can't figure out how to get that off. I don't want to force and perhaps break it, not knowing which way to pull. There also seem to be two more vertical fuses shown in the diagram in the manual, both with the number 21, near a circuit breaker with the number 25, but this looks to be in a different spot than under the glovebox and I don't know where to look for it. So I have not been able to check those four fuses yet.

[Suzu]

Well, I don't need the info on the additional fuses because I unhooked the alternator and there is no draw on the battery. I will try to find out what's wrong with the alternator, next.

[timsrv]

The only thing in the alternator that will do this is a shorted diode. You will need a good diode assembly to fix. I have no idea where to get a new one, I always get them from the salvage yards. I posted information on how to get in that other thread. If you go that route, look for one with the gray coating (indicates an original Denso diode assy). Tim

[Suzu]

The only salvage yard in town has one from an '88 Prism which is supposed to also fit the Corolla 1993-1997. I wonder if the diode assembly would fit? Here are some photos (http://www.oem-surplus.com/gmwp/picpages/prisimalt9284.html) of that alternator, Part #94849284 (http://www.oem-surplus.com/gmwp/picpages/prisimalt9284.html).

[Suzu]

I guess there's no point in looking for any parts because there's just absolutely no way to get the old alternator out of this van. I have everything disconnected and have been struggling for over two hours to find a way to get it past all the stuff that's in the way - the body of the car, the fan, the belt pulley, some kind of fat hose with very little flexibility, and worst of all a metal hose bent toward the front of the van and attached with a huge bolt next to the water pump. I'll try to post a photo here in a while.

[Suzu]

Here's a pic of the conundrum. I have given up for the day because I am hungry, hot and tired. Hope someone can help before the weekend is over. I need this van running.


1107

[timsrv]

I've done this same job a few times with no significant issues. Sometimes it seems there's no possible way it will squeeze out, but then you find the right angle and it just slides right out. That being said, yours does look a little tighter than usual. If nothing else works you can always remove or shift the fan shroud over a bit. Same goes for that power steering line. It may drip a bit but that's no big deal. Tim

PS: in case you haven't already seen these, here's a couple threads on the subject:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?69-How-to-remove-your-4wd-Van-s-alternator-relatively-easily

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?90-Change-your-alternator-ILLUSTRATED

[Suzu]

I've seen those threads, in fact I've been following the instructions in them to get this far.
Power steering line... the thing on right side above the alternator in my photo? :cnfsd: Glad to hear it can be moved. I've tried awfully hard to get it loose. I thought of attaching a cheater pipe to the wrench but I was afraid of stripping the head of the bolt. It already looks pretty well rounded off. Wish I had an impact wrench.

There has to be another way. I'll find it....:dizzy:

[timsrv]

Open end wrenches are not advised for these type bolts. A 6 point socket on a breaker bar would be the tool of choice. If I remember right, once or twice I had to loosen and reposition the fan shroud while removing a 4wd alternator. I've also bent the mount bracket for the radiator overflow tank. Never removed a PS line though. Tim

[mr_josh]

As Tim mentioned- why not just loosen / remove the fan shroud bolts? :cnfsd:

[Suzu]

Open end wrenches are not advised for these type bolts. A 6 point socket on a breaker bar would be the tool of choice.

Do you happen to know what size socket I will need? Must call a friend to borrow and and have it dropped off here.

[Suzu]

As Tim mentioned- why not just loosen / remove the fan shroud bolts? :cnfsd:
I may end up having to do that, too, but as it is, unless I move that PS line, there still won't be enough room even with the fan shroud moved or off.

[Burntboot]

Suzu - I have an 88 4wd std and I have had my alternator off a 1/2 doz times for one thing or another.
Never had to touch the power steering line to get it out.
Pull the belt off and the adjusting assembly, disconnect the wiring, pull both mounting bolts and crack loose the pinch bolt on the arm so you can swing it up a little to make a bit of room. Pull the coolant overflow reservoir off and move it aside, my lower shroud is missing so maybe that helps a bit??
It takes some creative twisting while extracting but it does come out through the top with little fuss.
BB

[Suzu]

Burntboot I appreciate your input. Not sure if you saw earlier up this thread or not, or if you saw the photo I posted. To me it looks like others' photos in alternator removal threads here in this forum don't have the power steering line placed where mine is. Could be that when I had the leak repaired, that line was moved into that position by the mechanic. I don't know, but I do know that I wrested with the alternator to get it out for over two hours yesterday and it's not coming out with that line in its current position. I already took off the lower part of the fan shroud and moved the coolant reservoir well out of the way. There just simply isn't enough space to pull the alternator through.

[timsrv]

I've had a long hard day & don't feel up to going out to measure that banjo bolt (sorry). I would say it's the same size as the open end wrench you were using, but then it occurred to me you must be using an adjustable wrench or a Channel Lock (would explain the rounded corners). I understand that money might be an issue, but you should really have a basic tool set if you're going to be working on the van. It's an old vehicle, so you should get good use from a took kit. No need to go overboard, but you should at least own a set of metric combination wrenches & 3 metric socket sets (1/4" drive, 3/8" drive, & 1/2" drive). Deep sockets are nice, but for most things you can get by without them.

When you take that banjo bolt off be sure to use a back-up wrench on the other side of the banjo fitting or you will likely damage the metal line. For insuring a good seal, new banjo bolt washers (copper) should be installed when the line is put back on. In a pinch old ones will usually survive and can often seal again. If they are overly smashed, then you'll need new ones.

There's another trick you could use, but I didn't mention it before because if you're not careful you could mess things up or hurt yourself. If it's close to coming out, but not quite possible, you could always use a jack w/wood shim under the driver's side of the engine (to slightly raise this side of the engine). A hydraulic jack has more than enough power to mess things up and/or create a safety issue, so if you try this, do so at your own risk & be careful not to exert too much force. I'm guessing the driver's side motor mount is already broken (they usually are).........but if it isn't yet, & you apply too much force, it will be :dizzy:.

I still think pulling the shroud will afford you enough room to remove the alternator (without all the other drama). But sometimes there are variables that cannot be known or anticipated. Good luck. Tim

[Suzu]

Thanks very much for the additional input, timsrv. I have a friend bringing a set of wrenches over in the morning. Very glad to know about using a back-up wrench on the other side of the banjo fitting. (I suppose the meaning of "banjo fitting" will become clear to me when I see it.) You're right, I can't afford to buy a set of wrenches and sockets just now; especially since I'll be having to pay for alternator parts. I have a hydraulic jack somewhere but probably won't be trying to use the trick you mentioned; I wouldn't know a motor mount if it slapped me in the face.

[Suzu]

Friend did not have the right size socket - which turns out to be 22mm - but does have the 12-point box wrench. Will that be OK to use on this bolt?

[timsrv]

12 points are okay for nuts & bolts that aren't already messed up. I don't know how bad yours is, but it will probably work. Tim

[Suzu]

12 points are okay for nuts & bolts that aren't already messed up. I don't know how bad yours is, but it will probably work. Tim

Here's an extreme close-up shot - click to enlarge.

1109

It was in this condition when I first looked at it, by the way.

[timsrv]

It doesn't look that bad. 12 point will probably work fine, but here's the thing........If it slips there probably won't be enough left for a 6 point. If you start off with a 6 point, then you don't need to worry about it. Tim

[Suzu]

I got the bolt off!! One good push with the cheater pipe and it popped open! :thmbup:

Have ordered a rebuilt Denso from PartsGeek.com using a credit card, the bill won't be due until November so I may be able to find the money between now and then, if I don't buy any gasoline!

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. This was really easy thanks to you!

[timsrv]

No problem. It's always rewarding to help out a fellow vanner :thmbup:. Tim