Sounds like a diesel at startup.....

[JFratzke]

That pretty much sums it up. Ever since we got it up and going, it makes this diesel like noise at startup. As soon as the engine runs for a bit, it goes away. The van sat for awhile so I did use a NAPA fast flush on it and it removed a lot of crap out of the engine. This noise didn't change after this flushing, but it did isolate itself as several other engine noises did go away. Overall performance is definitely smoother since flushing.

The noise is annoying. The motor only has 106,700 miles on it (4Y) so I have a hard time believing some of the usual suspects (timing chain, exhaust manifold, etc) could be causing it. Here is a video I made, almost identical to one I watched of Timsrv bringing an almost identical 1988 LE back to life:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EatTQ4ZTWM&feature=youtu.be

So what's the consensus? It seems fairly common for these vans that have sat for awhile to have this issue. What is it and what can be done about it?

[timsrv]

That sounds like a collapsed lifter to me. It's not uncommon for a hydraulic lifter that has sat compressed for a long time to develop this condition. I've had this same issue on 2 or 3 of my vans that had sat for years without running (including the one you mentioned in my video). In that instance the engine came from a salvage yard. The yard claimed it had 80k miles on it. It sat for almost a year after I got it (who knows how long it sat before that). Usually this issue will remedy itself after a few minutes of run time. Once I had one that stuck for an hr or so after initial start-up until I finally gave up & decided to replace it. I called almost every local auto parts store within a 35 mile radius but nobody had a 4y lifter. That took me about an hr & when I went back out and started it again the problem had vanished :). If your issue has been going on for more than a few days, it probably isn't going away on it's own.

There are other things in your valve train that can make that noise, but based on low miles and the long periods of non-use I would suspect a lifter. On a 4y replacing one without removing the head can be done but can be a real challenge. Good luck. Tim

[JFratzke]

Finally decided to let the shop look into my lifter noise from the video I posted above.

Just curious--assuming it is indeed a collapsed lifter, how long should it take an experienced mechanic to be able to swap out all 8 lifters(I am also assuming we should do the set as long as we are in there or is replacing just the collapsed lifter(s) enough?)

Any tips or special tool hints from anyone much appreciated. I am having some other maintenance done (brakes, couple oil leaks, belts, water pump, fan clutch, etc) and figure while its in there and all torn apart, maybe its time to address the noisy lifters too. Besides the replacing the valve cover gasket, what else ought to be done as long as he's in there?

My mechanic, while talented and diligent, is understandably not in love with working on our vans. Anything I could tell him to sooth his already frayed nerves would help.

The van is ok btw--I am just trying to get her 100% so we feel better about traveling in her. I have put over 5000 trouble free miles on her since this summer without any problems, averaging about 20 mpg combined city/hwy as my daily driver. Other than the annoyance at startup, the lifter noise seems to have no ill effect as far as mileage or power is concerned. But I want this thing to last and I'd certainly feel pretty crappy if the motor went sideways over something I could have had fixed.

Thanks:wnk:

[timsrv]

Replacing lifters on a worn 4y engine with the head still on sucks. Depending on several factors it may not be possible. IMO, it's likely the head will need to be removed.

Explanation: Each lifter spends it's entire life moving up & down about 1/2" travel inside it's bore. Over the years residue forms at the top of the bore creating a lip. Although the lifter may move effortlessly inside it's normal travel, moving beyond that may take extreme force. Sometimes you get lucky and they slide right out. For some reason I never seem to get lucky here :bdmd:. Usually one or more (usually more) will stick and requires excessive force to pull out. With the right tools this can be dealt with when the head is off. When the head is on the lifter access is greatly diminished.

Taking the head off an old 4y is like opening a can of worms. All gaskets will need to be replaced, there will likely be at least 1 broken exhaust stud to deal with, old hoses will probably disintegrate, the exhaust manifold will likely be cracked (hard to justify putting a cracked manifold back on). TPS should probably be replaced & injectors should be cleaned/tested. Since the head will be removed it would make sense to have the valves ground (which leads to other likely discoveries). There will likely be other things that need to be dealt with as well, so assuming it's like most of the vans I've worked on, I'd bid the job at 16 hrs labor + parts. A job like this could easily exceed $2k (sorry). Some parts will likely need to be ordered, which means the van will sit a few days before the job can be completed.

Then there's the obvious question: is the problem just a collapsed lifter or a flat camshaft? Before going to this much trouble, pull the valve cover and check lift on each lobe & compare to the specs listed in the service manual. This can be a little tricky, but with the right dial indicator & extension pieces it's doable. If it's really bad, you could see/measure with a machinist's scale (check travel from edge of lifters). Tim

[timsrv]

Sorry for the brutality of my previous post. Take a look at this thread as there might be some info that helps you get to the bottom of this.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1007-Noisy-Valve-Train-Troubleshooting

If that doesn't help, and you end up pulling the head, take a look at this thread:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?522-Other-parts-to-replace-while-replacing-Head-Gasket

[kcg795]

I had an intake lifter go out on my 84 3Y rebuilt. It caused the engine to misfire on that one cylinder. It seemed to clear up on the highway with all cylinders going until I'd have to slow down. Then it got progressively worse. I was able to pull the valve cover off and locate the rocker that wasn't moving as much as the rest and get the engine to run like crap just by pushing down on the push rod side of the rocker and get it to clear up when I pushed down on the valve spring side. All I had to do was purchase a valve lifter removal tool and remove the valve train. Then stick the tool down through the hole and stick a wrench through the spark plug hole to tighten up the valve lifter tool, then yank it out. The tool comes with a slide hammer, but I removed it so I'd have more room. Then after putting a little bit of assembly lube on the new lifter, you just slide it right into place and put it all back together.

Here's when it started happening. Oh yeah, ignore the flickering dash lights. That alternator finally went.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7A2k98DuA

Here's a video I took a while back how it ran with the bad lifter when it was much worse. At the time I did this video, I wasn't sure what the issue was. Thought I had an injector go out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oUOs_0o2Y

Then here's the video I took after I put the new lifter in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh0kRV786Do

[timsrv]

I'm with KC on identifying the bad one and only going after that...........it's the multiplying that by 8 that will get you into trouble. If it ain't broke...........

Good idea about taking the spark plug tube out for better access. I have a lifter removal tool with the slide hammer set-up, but with mine you can't attach it to the lifter until you 1st remove the retainer clip inside the top of the lifter. Digging that clip out with the head on would seem difficult to me. KC, did your tool require the removal of that clip?

[kcg795]

I got my lifter removal tool from JC Whitney. I think it's this one. http://www.jcwhitney.com/performance-tool-hydraulic-valve-lifter-remover/p2017900.jcwx I didn't have to remove the retainer clip from the lifter at all either. There's just enough slack between the retainer clip and the groove for the lifter removal tool to open up and get a good bite on it.

[timsrv]

And this is what makes the forum so totally worth it. Having the right tool can make all the difference. Thanks for the tip, I just ordered one of those in your link. I'm a bit disappointed in mine as it's a Snap-on and costs about 3X more.............yet it won't grip a 4y lifter unless you take that clip out 1st. Tim

[kcg795]

Even that lifter removal tool I got was tricky, but I got it to work.

[JFratzke]

Good info....thank yous all around. While terrified to do so, I am back to thinking I ought to let him take off the valve cover and have a look. It sounds like other than a valve cover gasket and perhaps replacing several hard-to-find and expensive hoses, he should be able to take a shot at identifying and removing the problem lifter just as kc did on his 3Y.

I don't really know what else to do. It seems like if I don't address this I risk hurting the longevity of the motor. Don't want that.

He's about finished with the list I gave him and a couple of parts won't be in until next week. I think I am going to let him go for it. I will take pics along the way and let you guys know how its going.

[JFratzke]

Nothing new to report yet as far as the lifters. I did get it out of the shop today with some work done. Not going to disable it now by doing the lifters until my other van is back up and running (possible igniter)

New front pads/rotors turned, new water pump, fan clutch, pulleys, belts, crank shaft seal, and power steering hose. Everything seems to work great so far. The power steering hose he replaced was the original and crumbled when he tried moving it. He replaced it with 5/8 hose from NAPA and from just the little bit of research I have done on this it seems like something I need to monitor. It was leaking and need to go but I am not convinced this hose is up for the job long-term.

He also did the little half dollar sized bushings in the front end (4 of them) and man that makes a difference in cab noise and ride. If I remember right they cost $18.

I got the JC Whitney lifter removal tool recommended by kcg795. It looks stout enough to handle this. Here's to hoping it goes as smoothly!

[JFratzke]

The LE goes back into the shop on Monday....quick question... I am tempted to use aftermarket lifters for this, mainly because I can get them for $6-$11 each whereas the Toyota ones are $54 EACH. If I am only replacing 1 or 2, I can stomach paying for OEM ones but looking at the specs and whatnot, it's a pretty basic part--there can't be that much variance between one from RockAuto or one from Toyota. I know we are all OEM fans here, but I can't see this being a major issue. Opinions?

Also, I know I need to replace the valve cover gasket (is this available OEM? can't seem to find it) and isn't there a plastic pcv valve on the valve cover that I am sure to break going in? What do folks do to replace that?

Surely we will find a bad hose when we take off all of the hoses needed to access the valve cover so those will need replacing. Can anyone think of anything else? Basically what would you have on hand when starting this job?

Thanks in advance....

[timsrv]

I lean towards OEM whenever possible, but more & more due to price & availability I'm using aftermarket. When I rebuilt my engine there was no way I could even consider paying Toyota's prices (adds up really quick). I discussed this with my machinist and he assured me the aftermarket kit I purchased was top notch. The price was in my range so I went that route. My pistons, camshaft, lifters, bearings, and timing set are all aftermarket. The kit actually came with an Aisin oil pump, so at least that is OEM. I purchased the gaskets & piston rings from Toyota. I wanted to replace my push rods too (not included in the kit) and was happy to find OEM Toyota was actually cheaper than any of the aftermarket ones. As for the head, I purchased a new fully assembled aftermarket cylinder head. Bottom line? My engine is no longer 100% Toyota. I was very thorough in my measurements & other than a problem with my timing set & the ITM rings (the ones I initially considered using), I was very impressed with the perceived quality. Time will tell how well this engine holds up. Tim

[JPERL]

gentlemen

Not to throw in a monkey wrench

Having this problem myself on my 87 it was piston slap. Btw check the production date. Is the date close to 10/86?. Lifters make more of a clicking sound like a typewriter until they pump up with oil which usually takes about half a minute to a minute not 5 minutes.


Do you have any power loss or running on 3 cylinders? A collapsed lifter would prevent proper valve open and close and power would be compromised.

If you have no loss of power, I lean towards piston slap

The fact that it goes away after a few minutes is because the piston expands in the cylinder and so the clearance between the piston and cylinder walls I reduced.

[JPERL]

another comment. My piston slap started at 30,000 miles (Back in 1987)and sounded just as bad as yours at 30K miles. Dealer claimed they could never reproduce and so I gave up.

Its just annoying my engine went almost 400K over the next 18 years. It was totaled by thieves


I learned that you should only be worried about noise under normal drive conditions. A cold engine is not a normal driving condition just as an overheated engine is not a normal drive condition.

[JFratzke]

I've wondered this myself and have heard of that diagnosis before. I am having this done by professionals and they are going to try to identify exactly where the problem is (like kcb did in his video) before they take drastic action. I am still leaning towards the lifter diagnosis for several reasons. The problem does go away rather quickly at idle--five minutes is the longest it takes. It is more of a tapping noise than anything else. Even after the noise quiets down, the lifter noise in this van is still louder than my other van. The biggest reason I feel the way I do is because of the van's history. It didn't do it before it sat five+ years and it does it now.

We'll see I guess. They haven't opened it up yet but plan on it this week. I just checked the door tag NOVEMBER 86. Two more years and its a bonafide classic.

Will update further....

[JPERL]

Listen to this different engine it's a sienna but does this sound close. This guy does many
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LODgYyxPYdE

Lexus Engine. This sounds more like My 87 Van did

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggZOuJWgBPA

[ratatouille]

Just a thought. I had a lifter stuck in an old Ford truck I have. Same type of knocking noise. Someone told me to try an engine treatment called Rislone before I tackled the work with hydrualic tools and what not. I figured why not for under 20$ I think it was. After about 40 or 50 miles driving with treatment the lifter loosened and engine ran without the "noise". Eventually did a rebuild and lifters came out anyway. But it did the trick. I wonder if it would work in the van as well? Might be worth a try?

[JFratzke]

1 Rislone, 2 NAPA flushes, Seafoam sucked in by vaccum line....I have tried it all. Currently running 5w30 with lucas oil added to keep it quieter after much experimentation with brands/weights.

[JFratzke]

Tech took off the valve cover and said he had never seen so much sludge caked inside one. I know the previous owner probably didn't change the oil much or have any routine maintenance done so this isn't a big surprise. Using a stethoscope my shop manager determinded that the rear 2 lifters are the ones that are collasped and making noise. Parts are here and they should get to it today along with the engine mounts. Big shout out to Tim for his latest blog post; it is really nice to have a visual (especially of a nice, clean motor!) to look at and see how everything is suppose to go together.

I'll update this thread with pictures when they get down into it.

[JFratzke]

UPDATE The tech removed the 2 lifters in the back of the block without much trouble using the tool I purchased on JC Whitney mentioned earlier in the thread by kcg795. However, the lifter in the very back of the block was just far enough back in the compartment that the removal tool was too long to use. To get the rear lifter out, he had to make a modified version of the tool with a shorter shaft. That lifter was completely locked in place and he said he had to pull pretty hard to get it out.

Then he put the rods and rocker arm assembly back on and fired it up. Much better, but still not perfect. Some excessive tapping still remains. Due to the ease he had pulling the lifters, I went ahead and ordered 6 more so the whole set will be new. The rods are gummed up pretty bad and because they are cheap, I am going to have those replaced too. Probably not necessary but what the heck, we are already in there. The tech also noticed that the rear rocker arm that was sitting on that bad lifter is stickier than the rest of the arms and doesn't move as well. He is going to soak it and try to get it freed up and moving better. All of the parts showed up yesterday- Using NAPA lifters (set of 8 for $60) and OEM rods ($11 each). I imagine he will have it done tomorrow at some point so hopefully this clears up the remaining noise.

The tech doing the work said the tool makes the lifter removal easy. He is not putting a wrench in through the spark plug socket either like kcg795 did. He doesn't even have the passenger side 'hood' open or even the seat out! After watching him do it, I would encourage anyone to undertake this repair yourself. You'll likely break a hose or two (I think he has replaced 3) but other than that I think this is something that a novice can handle.

I will update again when it is done and back together.

[timsrv]

It sounds like you got the 2 worst ones dealt with, so doing the rest should be easy :thmbup:. Might also be a good idea to do a timing kit.........there's always something :)>:. Tim

[JFratzke]

That would be next. Before summer, I hope to get the radiator re-cored at that shop in California I've read about on here. Probably do the timing then as well. I need to space out my repairs so the wife doesn't notice the damage to the account. I can't keep my receipts like you Tim. If my wife found $30k in Toyota Van-related invoices I'd be toast :pissed: <HER

[timsrv]

Lol, I'm in trouble right now with painting supplies/etc, etc. I spent almost $7k in 2012 rebuilding everything drive-train related. I got less than 100 miles on it then "BAM" a tweaker wasted the body. So it's been taking up garage space for the last 1 1/2 years..........until last month. Now I'm dumping a bunch more time/money into the body. All the structural and body work are now done (as of today). Primer and paint are next. Quality paint and related materials are expensive..........but that's not all. Since I can't do anything half-way I completely stripped the van down to a pile of parts. All rubber, glass, (anything other than metal) has been removed and gutted (even took apart the dash to get the windshield washer nozzles and wiper stuff out). So, while I'm in there..............................you get the idea. I'm spending a small fortune & needless to say I'm in the doghouse again :slap:. Tim

Here's a link to my project photo album: http://s8.photobucket.com/user/timsrv/library/TVT%20pics/Body?sort=3&page=1

[JFratzke]

JOB COMPLETE!

Whew! Glad that is over with! Van is finally out of the shop after having all 8 lifters and rods replaced with OEM parts. Tried to use NAPA lifters to begin with but they DID NOT work at all. Engine misfired and would hardly idle. Forked out the $$$ for Toyota lifters and just like that, it runs beautiful. The extreme diesel like tapping is gone--replaced with a nominal tick tick tick of a normal sounding engine. The difference in performance is outstanding. It is almost like I have a new transmission. It runs smoother and accelerates more evenly. It also tops out at a higher RPM (5000+) when getting up to highway speeds and is a lot quieter doing so.

The attached pictures show how sludged up this engine is. The tech ran everything he took off through numerous parts washings and lots of goo was removed. Still. This engine was not cared for by its previous owner. I have a feeling that instead of regular oil changes she simply 'added as needed'. I need to do plugs, cap, rotor, and wires so i am fresh there and I would really like to do the timing chain. Hopefully I can squeeze some more life out of this engine before it inevitably siezes up. You can't really tell by looking, but the tech said that none of the lifters were functioning as they should. He said some were worse than others and they were harder to pull. The engine mounts were done at the same time and that is making a noticable difference in ride quality too--lots quieter.

[timsrv]

Awesome! We'll have to put lifters on the list of Napa parts that don't seem to work in the van (1st item being thermostats). I'm getting close to finishing my project. In another week or 2 my van will be like brand new (barring a few tweaks and adjustments)! I'm looking forward to driving it again. Tim

[JFratzke]

***Last Update on this thread I swear***

Been driving it for a week now and I am in love all over again. The increase in power and acceleration is just amazing. I always felt that my van was a little underpowered but I did not think changing out the lifters would make such a dramatic difference.

[Hammervan]

I've been lurking on this wonderful website a LOT. Thanks to Tim and everyone for providing the information to keep my van running and give me the confidence to tackle my noisy valve lifters.

I used the JC Whitney tool referred to above. On most of the lifters, it was easier to just fish them out with a magnet. The tool was too long for the rear two (as JFratzke mentioned) and of course it was the 7th one back that was stuck. So I bought a bolt that matched the thread on the handle (5/16 x 24 I think) and cut off a smaller bolt as a spacer. My 3" bolt was too short, so I welded on a 3" rebar T-handle and now have a perfect lifter-remover for the van.

The tool doesn't really grab the "lip" inside the lifter because you can't compress the lifter when it's full of oil. You just expand the tool the best you can and hope it doesn't slip out. Maybe you could remove the clip and piston on a lifter that was really stuck, so you had the lip to grab onto?

The van runs SO much quieter now, I don't think I realized how much of the racket was caused by them. So far the Enginetech lifters I got on Rockauto for $20 for the SET are working fine, time will tell if it was $380 well saved vs. OEM.

P.S. I'm still running the OEM stereo too, it's totally worth it to have the remote volume control between the seats! I just use a Bluetooth player to play music on my phone since the cassette died long ago.

Andreas

[JFratzke]

Enginetech lifters...check. God those Toyota ones are expensive.

[micah202]

.

...wondering if mine has the same dieseling sound?

..here's a short video that catches the sound.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu2zs3g0T80&feature=youtu.be

You can hear it best at 0:07 to :15 ,, and 29 to 34 seconds ....whatchathink? :cnfsd:


It goes away after ~5 minutes of driving.

[micah202]

.

...wondering if mine has the same dieseling sound?

..here's a short video that catches the sound.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu2zs3g0T80&feature=youtu.be

You can hear it best at 0:07 to :15 ,, and 29 to 34 seconds ....whatchathink?


It goes away after ~5 minutes of driving.


..... anyone? :cnfsd:

[JPERL]

Does the sound happen only when cold and then go away after 3-5 minutes? If so I am sticking by piston slap. noise goes away because as the metal expands (piston) there is less clearance for the piston to move and thus slap the cylinder walls. Aside from annoying it did not impact the 87 Van I owned for 13 years Got it new on 11/10/86 with 6 miles

At 20000 miles the piston slap developed and went another 12 years until it got stolen with over 300K miles on it. It was recovered and the insurance totaled it

[micah202]

Does the sound happen only when cold and then go away after 3-5 minutes? If so I am sticking by piston slap. noise goes away because as the metal expands (piston) there is less clearance for the piston to move and thus slap the cylinder walls. Aside from annoying it did not impact the 87 Van I owned for 13 years Got it new on 11/10/86 with 6 miles

At 20000 miles the piston slap developed and went another 12 years until it got stolen with over 300K miles on it. It was recovered and the insurance totaled it


...yeh,, I'd say 5 to 8 minutes. I do consider it a reasonably normal sound for toyo's,, just wanted to worry about something else when I saw this thread.:yikes:


...the baby's at the mechanic's now for a full checkover,, it'll help me get over my paranoia's.
.... no head gasket issues,, no startup issues,, all he found was a balljoint to replace :thmbup:


......you still driving that one owner '86?