Van started running rough? Misfiring on clyinder 3?

[cusco-awd]

The old van had been running good for a while now. I went and filled it all the way up for the first time, then the next day the problems began. Not sure if its related but worth mentioning.


I drove the tank down a little and added some fresh gas to see if it was the problem, along with a little seafoam.

Trouble shooting so far has been-

Remove plug wires and see if it runs worse or the same. When I unplugged the plug wire on cyl 3 there was no change. It is still getting spark


I tapped on the side of the injector lightly to no change. It has started running a little better since its below half a tank but it is also becoming hard to start when its not warmed up.



Trouble codes- Have not checked them, CEL has been on since I bought it and was running decent before the last couple of days. Im sure one of them if from the sensor in the overflow tank not being hooked up.


:?:

[timsrv]

If you have spark & compression in that cylinder then the problem is likely an injector or injector connector. On my 86 I had the same problem & it was also my #3 cylinder. I had spark & compression, but it ran the same regardless whether that spark plug wire was hooked up or not. When I pulled the injectors the inlet screen on #3 was completely plugged up with rust particles. I cleaned it with carb cleaner & compressed air. After cleaning I test fired it with compressed air and brake clean. It sprayed a nice pattern so I reinstalled it. The other injectors were clean but I replaced the fuel filter as a precaution. That was about 2 months ago & the van has been running fine since. Tim

[cusco-awd]

Thats along the lines Im thinking. I bet I knocked some crap loose when I filled her up. The previous owner told me he pulled the tank since it had been sitting for 10 years and it all turned to gunk.



I have pulled injectors before . As for getting to the injectors.

Guess the manifolds got to be slit judging from the other thread I found



If you have spark & compression in that cylinder then the problem is likely an injector or injector connector. On my 86 I had the same problem & it was also my #3 cylinder. I had spark & compression, but it ran the same regardless whether that spark plug wire was hooked up or not. When I pulled the injectors the inlet screen on #3 was completely plugged up with rust particles. I cleaned it with carb cleaner & compressed air. After cleaning I test fired it with compressed air and brake clean. It sprayed a nice pattern so I reinstalled it. The other injectors were clean but I replaced the fuel filter as a precaution. That was about 2 months ago & the van has been running fine since. Tim

[timsrv]

Thats along the lines Im thinking. I bet I knocked some crap loose when I filled her up. The previous owner told me he pulled the tank since it had been sitting for 10 years and it all turned to gunk.



I have pulled injectors before . As for getting to the injectors.

Guess the manifolds got to be slit judging from the other thread I found

That sounds exactly like my 86. It sat for 13 years with a full tank. When I tried to fire it up the fuel pump had failed. When I drained the tank it stunk (rotten). My tank and everything inside was all rusted up. I got it running and the ECU had failed (gas gauge inop & the check engine light was on). I couldn't put it into the diagnostic mode so I replaced the ECU. That fixed everything & it ran great. After running if for about 2 or 3 months it started missing on #3. That turned out to be a clogged inlet screen on the injector (mentioned above).

Yes you need to split the manifold. When I did mine pretty much every rubber part disintegrated during the process (so you should expect the same). It was annoying but needed to be done. It was worth it as the van has been very reliable since then. I'm using it for "severe service" every day. I'm hauling around almost 3k lbs inside plus towing a 1/2 ton cargo trailer. My throttle foot gets tired from staying mashed on the floor all the time :lol:. I get about 10 - 12mpg :LOL2:. Tim

[cusco-awd]

The ECU wont go into diagnostic mode.

[timsrv]

That's not good. Perhaps you should start checking on eBay. Search for the Toyota part number printed on your old one. Tim

[cusco-awd]

That's not good. Perhaps you should start checking on eBay. Search for the Toyota part number printed on your old one. Tim


I dont think Im gonna have trouble finding one. I would just hate to spend the cash and it not be the issue.

Any more tips on testing it?

Also, I cant find the CEL Flash codes online, here or the other forums. The links I found were deleted.

[llamavan]

Here you go: Toyota Vanwagon Diagnostic Codes (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?195-Diagnostic-Codes-for-Toyota-Vanwagons-all-years)

Gwen

[cusco-awd]

Here you go: Toyota Vanwagon Diagnostic Codes (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?195-Diagnostic-Codes-for-Toyota-Vanwagons-all-years)

Gwen


Thats the link I was talking about not working. It shows the codes for the model ECU, But if you click on the link for the codes its 404 not found.

I thought I found them on a google search when the showed up on TVP, but they were edited to send you here and theres no codes.

[timsrv]

Oh, okay. I see what you're talking about. We'll have to fix that. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Tim

[cusco-awd]

Oh, okay. I see what you're talking about. We'll have to fix that. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Tim


Thanks Im glad. The fact that there is still resources out there at is amazing, Im just glad this and other forums still exist for the cans.

[timsrv]

Okay, I just repaired that. You should be able to access these now. Thanks for your patience. Tim

Toyota Vanwagon Diagnostic Codes (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?195-Diagnostic-Codes-for-Toyota-Vanwagons-all-years)

[cusco-awd]

Well the follow up is that kept driving it and putting miles on it. Whatever it was came unstuck a couple days ago.

[timsrv]

Lucky you. After only 5k miles mine started missing again. Last night I took a look & it turned out to be #3 injector AGAIN! So I pulled it all apart and sure enough, #3 was plugged up with rust AGAIN!. Cleaned & tested fine and reassembled. Got it all done and Was running sweet, til I noticed #1 was leaking gas from between the rail and the injector. I gave it a twist and the leak stopped, then twisted it back & it started again. Even though I could stop the leak by positioning it I couldn't trust it, so I tore everything back down AGAIN! & replaced all the injector seals AGAIN. This time I plugged the cold start injector hole & tested the fuel system before installing the top half of the intake manifold.

After sitting for 13 years there was a lot of rust inside my fuel tank, but I figured the filter would keep it out of my injectors. I even put a new filter on the last time I cleaned injectors, but these small rust particles are still getting through. What's interesting is only #3 is getting plugged. None of the others had anything in them at all. Next time this van does this it's getting parked. Keep your fuel systems clean people.......this is a lesson I'm learning the hard way. Tim

[mahleek87]

If your van has been running and hasnt sat then this probably doesnt apply right? Or are there anythings you can do to keep your fuel systems clean even when using the van as a daily driver?

[timsrv]

I was taught that vehicles in storage should have full fuel tanks. The train of thought being oxygen & moisture need to be present for rust to take place. If the tank is filled with gas, then it displaces both oxygen & moisture. So I parked this with a full tank & didn't worry about it. Well, as expected, all the gas was rotten when I woke the old girl up. The fuel pump had failed so I drained the tank, dropped it, and replaced the pump. It blew me away at how messed up everything was (thick layer of flakey rust on everything). I don't know why, but suspect it's due to modern gas not being the same as the old stuff. Perhaps alcohol & oxygenation allows rust to take place? I don't know. BTW, as for the old gas, I filtered it, mixed 50% with fresh gas & gave it to my son to burn in his Corolla :wnk:.

After this, if I were to store a vehicle long term again, I'd probably drain the tank and take my chances. You shouldn't need to worry if you're using the van as a daily driver. Just the process of filling/using should keep rust at bay.........I think :dizzy:. Tim

[85CargoSpace]

THREAD REVIVE!~

So after some research on this wonderful forum, I think Ive found my issue with the toyota van. Yesterday I ran the tank on E to the gas station, then suddenly it started miss-firing terribly. We did some troubleshooting, full compression and spark, but no go on cylinder #3. I suspected a bad fuel injector, but there must be more chance of fouling the third cylinder injector. Wished it was just the spark plug but Im happy I've pretty much found my solution. So far Ive put over 2500kms on it. I changed the fuel pump (fouled) and front tires, and its been reliable until now. I love these vans, they're just so unique!:dance2:

PS: Anyone have parts in BC for this van? I need;
Fuel injector (3rd cylinder)
gas cap door
center console piece (Red?)
front rotors
1677

[85stillalive]

85CargoSpace (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/member.php?1912-85CargoSpace) if you are still looking for those parts someone is parting out a van not too far from you....

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/pts/4539254445.html

i would be calling them myself but i have to leave town in a couple of days and am busy trying to get mine running well :lol:

dave

[gizmolannigan]

I've done this 3 times anyone have any knowledge of better or worse fuel filter. I'm getting tired of pulling the intake apart. Yes I have flush the tank still getting the micro rust in the injectors.

[timsrv]

My #3 injector screen was clogging every 5k miles until I replaced filter with an aftermarket set-up. It's been almost 20k miles now and no more clogged injector screens. Here's a link to my solution: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working/page2 Tim

[EZHIKER]

My 5-spd 4wd van is sick. I am suffering similar symptoms. I have a bad miss in the upper 1/3 of the rpm zone, it seems more pronounced when climbing a grade. I was thinking TPS as a starting point, now after reading this thread I am hoping it is not fuel injector related. Any opinions? TPS is of unknown age and was definitely from pulled from a parts van.

[timsrv]

When it happened to mine it was fine up until it wasn't. Then power started sucking bad (top speed on straight level was around 73) and at an idle it had a miss that would come & go. I narrowed down to #3 by pulling plug wires while idling (pulling 1, 2, or 4 would result in a stall but pulling number 3 had little effect). So I pulled all plug wires and cranked it for about 10 seconds. Then I pulled and inspected all the spark plugs. #1, 2, and 4 were wet with fuel but #3 was dry. When I split the manifold and checked injectors, there were some small debris in the screens of 1, 2, and 4, but #3 was plugged up solid. I used Gum-Out spray and compressed air to blow out the screens, then test fired them all by putting Gum-Out in the inlet area and using compressed air with my rubber tipped nozzle. I made a seal between the injector and my nozzle while my son applied 12V power to the wires (I had a new injector connector we used to test). After cleaning all injectors were firing and spraying, so I put in new seals, reassembled, and all was good again.

With mine, this was happening every 5k miles (give or take). After the 4th time I got serious about it and installed that aftermarket filter. That was almost 20k miles ago and van has been running fine ever since. I changed the filter element after the 1st 5k miles, but haven't touched it since. I have a fuel pressure gauge installed on the output side of that filter, and it consistently displays 42 psi when I'm at full throttle (still no flow issues)

A bad TPS probably wouldn't make the van run that bad. Over time perhaps, but not until things started getting fowled up due to long term rich running. A bad TPS could cause noticeable loss of power, but would not cause a miss. TPS failure is common on the van, so I would never install a used one (ever). I pretty much consider TPS replacement routine maintenance. I replace them every 100k miles whether they need it or not. If the van has more than 100k miles on it and I don't know history, I replace. Anytime I see a trouble code that could be caused by a failed TPS, I replace the TPS. Tim

[EZHIKER]

Thanks for the input on the TPS. The symptoms appear quite similar you your clogged injector. Everything worked fine until it didn't. I am going to monitor it over the next tank or two of fuel, maybe try a fuel additive. It runs perfect until 60-65 mph. This engine has a exhaust leak and the original 200K clutch is on it last legs. It is really time to freshen up the engine that has been occupying my engine stand for the past 6 years and do a thorough overhaul and swap. Let the fun begin.....again.

[EZHIKER]

What is the going rate to have Fuel Injectors Rebuilt? Does anybody want to offer a recommendation? The other engine that will get attention was trouble free with 190K on it when it was pulled. Thanks.

[gizmolannigan]

FYI Wix literature says their filter is 12 microns obviously the injectors screens are much finer.

[gizmolannigan]

From my understanding injector "rebuilding" is a farfetched term. The injectors do not come apart you can get a kit off of ebay which has filter screens, o-rings and pintle caps. If you you know someone with a ultrasonic cleaner you'll have "rebuilt" injectors. Yes they haven't been flow tested, that's where university of YouTube comes in. Just search for it.

[hi4y]

After much research online I opened the hood looking at some hoses wrong and they all broke so along with buying stuff in town (part numbers and pictures very helpful mahalo!) I am trying to find out where else to throw money at a missing third cylinder. I pulled the plug wire to #3 and although good spark didn't seem to change the running like crap although pulling other wires did (made worse). I'm getting 10 blinks then 11 then 10 then 11etc. In diagnostic mode.
If I'm reading the .pdf Tim posted right its the
Starter signal and switch signal? Don't see how those have anything to do with a cylinder miss/rough idle. Intake hose has a slight crack where tim pointed out but upon inspection it does not appear to have compromised the airseal.
Having a great time bringing this thing back to life. Some thing started buzzing around the maf a few days ago and sometimes I loose a half gallon coolant (not boiling over) and sometimes I'm completely full next morning after running all day. These rigs shore do have personalities
Mahalo nui loa

[timsrv]

Code 10 is likely a fluke and probably doesn't mean anything. I'd clear codes and then see what (if anything) comes back. I'm guessing code 11 will come back and that usually means a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). If you have spark on #3, but no fire, then it's likely you have a clogged or bad injector and/or a messed-up injector connector. Pull that spark plug and check it for fuel (I'm guessing it will be dry).

For whatever reason, when there's contaminants in your fuel system, they always seem to end up in the inlet screen to #3 injector. If that's it, unfortunately you'll need to remove the upper half of your intake manifold and your fuel rail to remove and test/clean injectors. This job can take an experienced mechanic up to 6 hrs to complete, so unless you're a mechanic, I'd count on it taking up your entire weekend. If you do find excessive debris in that injector, I would highly recommend upgrading your fuel filter to something like I did here: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working&p=13388#post13388

Due to a contaminated fuel system, I was plugging up my #3 injector every 5k miles. After the 4th time of tearing down, cleaning the injector, and putting back together, I finally got rid of the stock fuel filter and replaced with aftermarket (linked to above). Since then I've put over 25k trouble free miles on the van :clap:. I can't say for sure this is your issue, but based on the information given it sure sounds like it. Good luck. Tim

[hi4y]

Thanks for the help, Tim.
I need to address the manifold anyway so it looks inevitable but I need a little more time to gather parts and hope it is just the tps and some other vacuum issues for now.
Cleared the codes and still getting 10 blinks then 11 then 10 then 11.
I used gorilla tape around the air intake hose cracks to see if I can't just keep it going for a little while longer before rebuild. I'm on an island as mentioned and just getting to the town where parts usually have to be ordered can take all day.
A while ago I did find the cover to the tps had fallen off and was just sitting on the manifold!
Also the sensor right above #3 spark plug I found to have only one wire going to it. The other had broken off.
Thanks again for this sit I can only imagine how many more vans are on the road today because of it.
See a lot of users in the p.n.w. ...used to live close to oly and spokane man! Big aloha to the p.n.w. from your neighbors out in hawaii

[yodavan]

hello everyone,

i am a first time owner, i just bought this van in its current non running state. hopefully someone can help out ive tried a lot allready with no success.

its a 1985 van manual transmission.

it starts and runs for about a second or two then starts to sputter and shake and dies. it will keep doing this if i keep trying. i can keep it running with brake cleaner through a vacuum hose on the throttle body.

fuel pressure is is good even as it stalls
injectors are receiving pulse via noid light
injectors are clicking
spark is present but is yellowish not blue
afm is within specs
all relays are within spec
all fuses are good

any ideas, thanks in advance


SOLVED THIS:

in case anyone ever comes across this situation
the fuel tank must be rusted out there was tons of rust dust plugging up the injectors
going to need a new fuel tank and flush the entire fuel system out ):

[MyToy]

A new mystery with Cylinder #3 86 LE 4Y

Van started running rough 3000 miles after rebuilt engine. All plugs, wires, rotors, distributor cap replaced at time of engine overhaul.
#3 plug full of crap when pulled. Never got wet. Replaced all injectors with new. Still no #3.
Plenty of spark on 3, plug is now real wet, compression is good at 178. #3 won't fire.

We are really stuck on this one. Anyone have any ideas?

MT

[timsrv]

Did you replace the spark plug on #3 after replacing the injectors? If not, do it. Sparking while the plug is out of the cylinder is not the same as sparking inside the cylinder. Compression and atomized fuel create resistance, so if the plug does have a problem it may spark fine outside the cylinder, but maybe not while installed. Tim

[MyToy]

Thanks Tim for responding.

Yes, tests with and without plug were made. No issues there.
Even replaced the plug again with no help
Spark plug wires replaced during rebuild but mechanic told me that he did notice #3 had some yellow in it thinking it may have over heated at one point. But still all spark is fine until used with cylinder. Compress looks fine also.
Plug comes out wet every time they pull it to check.

This is so old school yet nobody can figure it out.

Any chance the ECU has the injection on all the time and it is flooding the cylinder extinguishing the spark?

Again, thanks again for the response Tim. I am without a vehicle.

MT

[VanCo]

Any chance the ECU has the injection on all the time and it is flooding the cylinder extinguishing the spark?
MT

These engines are batch fire fuel injection. If #3 injector was flooding due to improper electrical trigger, so would #1.

In addition to compression, spark, and fuel, the engine also needs proper timing, both mechanical (chain), and ignition (dist).

Also, a blown head gasket can introduce coolant to the cylinder and prevent spark. Make sure the plug is wet with fuel and not coolant.

[timsrv]

If you have fuel, spark, and compression, then it should be firing. Even if it's too much fuel, it should still fire. If it's way too much fuel, then the compression would drop due to the fuel washing the oil out of the rings and the cylinder walls. I highly doubt the ECU would be to blame for anything, but who knows. If you haven't already done it.....or even if you have, I would start double checking everything. If you still have your old parts (cap, rotor, wires, etc), I would swap those out one by one to see if the problem changes or goes away. Tim

[MyToy]

Thanks guys. This will be a big help.

Will keep you posted. All closing down here now at 5 PM. Will pick it up in the morning.

Again, thank you to all

MT

[MyToy]

Just an update on this.
We did verify that the term "wet" meant fuel. There is no water and you can smell it coming out of the exhaust.

The transmission pan started to leak so that was done Tues while they noodled over this one.
They will start again on the cylinder 3 issue this morning. Their first test now will be to measure the amount of voltage on #3's HV cable while it is running and at different RPMs. They are expecting it to peak out about 50KV if it is right. They will do a comparative analysis with the other 3 wires at the same time.

That is all we have as of this morning. Will keep you posted as things progress today.

MT

[VanCo]

I'm just thinking way outside the box. If the cam and lifters were not broken in properly after the rebuild it is possible that the intake lobe on that cylinder is going flat. The intake valve could be opening enough for good compression numbers while cranking, but not enough for proper compression while running. I only thought of this because you mentioned only 3,000 miles since rebuild. If not properly broken in a flat tappet cam will go flat really quick.

Just an idea. Good luck!

[MyToy]

More updates. HV OK. Nothing is making sense. I was told they were going to mark the balancer and check the ignition timing for each cylinder. What that means I have no clue!

MT

[VanCo]

More updates. HV OK. Nothing is making sense. I was told they were going to mark the balancer and check the ignition timing for each cylinder. What that means I have no clue!

MT

By marking top dead center for each cylinder on the balancer they can check the timing of the spark individually for each cylinder. This would tell them if the timing is consistent for all cylinders, and if #3 is too far advanced or retarded to actually fire.

In addition to ignition timing I would also check mechanical timing, and make sure no cam lobes are going flat.

[MyToy]

Roger that VanCo. Today should be an interesting day. They have had the van now for 7 weeks:pissed:. And they are still lost.

[timsrv]

Occasionally I'll run into something odd that stumps me. If/when I find myself in that spot, I've discovered it to be very valuable having parts vans around. If you have that luxury, then I'd recommend swapping parts. Swapping of parts may be a form of cheating, but in those rare times I've resorted to that, it's helped me figure things out very quickly. If you don't have a parts van around, then not such a good strategy as some of these parts are very expensive (if you can find them).

If you do have another van with these parts, I'd probably start by swapping the distributor (with the coil in it), then move to the igniter, then the ECU. Although it doesn't seem likely to be these parts, they all control some aspect of your your ignition system, so any or all could be suspect. Tim

[MyToy]

Yea, it may get to that Tim. I was busy yesterday and did not have a chance to check in with them. I think they are getting tired of the job. His last comment after I relayed VanCo input on the matter was they were checking the electrical signal on the #3 injector. Then he texted me and told me he was checking the EFI resistor, what ever that is. But I am gravitating to your comments. I don't have any of the old parts, it was 4 months ago I did this. So I guess I will have to pull the ECU out and get the part number and see if I can find one. As for the rest of the goodies I can still buy from RockAuto I guess.
EFI resistor, huh, anyone ever here of that? I will check the Service Manual. Maybe I can find something in there on it.

Thank all of you. We will get this and we will all know what to do should it occur again.

MT

[MyToy]

Just found it. He is nuts. They are in series with each batch of injectors. The problem is that the plugs are always wet with fuel. So they must be at least turning on, why would he even think this would be a suspect? I don't know.:no:

MT

[boogieman]

injector stuck open?

[VanCo]

The resistors are there to ohms match the low impedance injectors to the ECU injector drivers.

If a resistor is bad it usually creates an open circuit and the corresponding injector won't open.

A stuck injector can either be mechanical (e.g. pintle stuck) or electrical. If an injector driver was bad it would affect other injectors since it's batch fire.

It is simple to diagnose. Disconnect power to the injectors and coil and crank. Pull plugs, if all cylinders are dry except #3, then #3 is mechanically stuck. If all are dry, there still could be a trigger issue. They could swap injector plugs to see if they can get a different cylinder to act like the problem one. Since it's batch fire swapping them for diagnostics isn't a big deal.

This whole thing seems silly to me. With the proper tools, knowledge, and a standard "flow chart" this shouldn't take more than a few hours to diagnose. These van, though they look weird, are still regular internal combustion 80's EFI vehicles. There are no flux capacitors, and it isn't powered by a Mr fusion.

I really do wish you luck.

[MyToy]

Yep, I am with you on this all the way. A bit of deductive reasoning should have nailed this. I have this crap feeling that I will be driving it away on 3 pistons and doing it myself.
They have over 1K into now and there is no way I am paying a nickel.


Thanks guys, will keep you posted, great input

MT

[MyToy]

Still putting me off. They said I need to replace these also. Never saw these before. He said they are on most 2.0 engines spark plugs. Can anyone tell me what these are called?


MT

[eightysnix]

Still putting me off. They said I need to replace these also. Never saw these before. He said they are on most 2.0 engines spark plugs. Can anyone tell me what these are called?


MT

Spark plug tubes/gaskets. They pull right out if the spark plugs are out. If you haven't replaced the gaskets, they're probably dried up and hard/cracked and worth replacing since they may leak and should be very cheap--mine came with a valve cover gasket set. Toyota part #90430-31141. I don't know of any reason to replace the tubes themselves, though.

[llamavan]

That's a spark plug tube, Toyota P/N 11191-22010, and the black o-ring at the top is the spark plug tube gasket, Toyota P/N 90430-31141. (Same part numbers for all vans, all years.)

Gwen

[timsrv]

I don't know of any reason to replace the tubes themselves, though.

The tubes are held in place by the spark plug. If the spark plug is over-torqued the aluminum part of the tube under the spark plug gets squished and can tear out. If/when they leak oil into the tube, excessive oil build-up inside the tube can interfere with spark, causing a rough running issue. If the bottom area where the plug grabs is damaged replace the entire tube. If that's okay, then just replace the o-rings where the top of the tube seals to the head. Tim

PS: The tubes should be flat on the bottom. The one in the picture (above) looks like it's tore up on the bottom (classic issue caused by over torquing the plug). For this reason I like the older style plugs with the bigger base (13/16" instead of 5/8").

[MyToy]

Thank you everyone. Thanks Gwen, these tubes cannot be purchased by way of normal places. I did find them at a fork lift site. Thank you so much for getting me the part numbers.

Still no word on Cylinder #3. All suggestion have been checked including timing and cam. I think they have just put her aside and doing nothing. I was able to see #3 plug and it looks like it came right out of the box as new. Shinny and clean with no activity. How could this possibly happen? Tons of spark, tons of air, and tons of fuel and only on #3 and not on its matching batch plug #1.

So so disappointing. The van is about 85% finished and now a major delay:doh:

This is one mystery we will all learn from.

MT

[VanCo]

I'm not sure if it's been covered (usually ruled out in the beginning of the misfire flow chart), but misfires can be caused by vacuum leaks. Basically too much air sneaking in throwing off the air fuel ratio. There are three places a vacuum leak can occur that will impact a single cylinder on these engines. The gasket where the plenum meets the intake, the gasket where the intake meets the head, and the injector where it seats into the intake.

There are several ways to test for this. My favorite is a tool that pressurizes and introduces smoke to the intake system. Wherever the smoke is escaping, there is a leak.

[MyToy]

VanCo:
How unbelievable you just mentioned this. I just built one of these with a pickle jar, an old soldering iron and some hoses. I own a Porsche 911 with the old CIS injection system. Air box is alway a worry should it crack during any backfire. So I built one of these over the weekend and did the same thing. Closed off all areas to the outside world and pumped it up with a bicycle pump. found 3 leaks, Injector, Elbow hose, and rubber coupler.
Question is where would we stick it into the system. It would have to after #3 injector and before it hits the intake valve. Not sure about that, any thoughts?
Here is a pic of my smoker.
One is static and the other is after 5 minutes the iron is on. You can see the smoke build up. I used an old sock and baby oil
MT

[VanCo]

That's awesome!

You could use that smoke leak detector. Try removing the intake boot and plugging the throttle body. Hook the detector up to the brake booster vacuum line, or pcv valve. If a leak is large the bike pump may work. You might need more flow though. Possibly an air mattress pump? I use an air compressor with regulated low pressure. If you do pump more pressure in, take off the oil cap. The blow by past the cylinders can create excessive crank case pressure and blow seals.

Since I have a turbo I have run a version of this method to 15psi to look for boost leaks. You shouldn't really have to build any pressure, and if you do, only go to 5psi max (plus who knows what a pickle jar can handle).

Oh, if your smoke ends up just going straight out of the exhaust, that means the engine is positioned so that one of the cylinders has its valves overlapping. Just give the engine a 1/8 or so turn and it should be good.

[boogieman]

. I own a Porsche 911 with the old CIS injection system. Air box is alway a worry should it crack during any backfire.
MT

we used to install pop off valves in the airbox when i worked at the Porsche shop way back....

[MyToy]

Yes, I am very familiar with the pop off. I have one and never installed it. I am just so scared of cutting a hole that big into my airbox. But I think now is the time. My leak was from the rubber elbow that spans the fuel distributer to the air box. I purposely keep the hose clamps loose so in the event it back fires the rubber elbow blows off. It has worked for 30 years. But I lose performance so I am thinking I will install it now.

Latest on the van. NOTHING!!!!!!!! I told them about VanCo's idea and told them I already had the smoker. They don't take my suggestions very well, but if they don't get it by the weekend, I am going to drive her out of there on 3 cylinders and do it myself.
They only work on it now if they have little work, so I am shelved half the time.

Thanks again to all of you.

MT

[djshimon]

I'm late to the party and I read the spark plugs were wet and they put in new injectors so I'm most likely wrong...but I had the same problem after my rebuild and it was a clogged injector. Hope I don't send you on a wild goose chase. Good luck and I really hope it gets figured out.

[MyToy]

I think that has been covered a few times now. They are new but who knows. The amount of stuff done this week is mind boggling. They mentioned something about the timing of the injectors upon key start. Then they thought is was a bad ground to chassis. So they replaced the minus battery cable. It was 5 ohms they said. But of course why would that have anything to do with why on cylinder is not firing? Then they said they found a splice issue. Well the only thing I can think is spliced are the new connectors on the new injectors. Then they felt that there was too much emissions from one spark plug wire causing interference. OH BOY. So new plug wires and dist cap replaced with is really OK, have to start swapping out stuff as per Tim's suggestion.

So I really don't know how it was left Friday. I was to busy at work to be concerned.

So tomorrow morning will be a fact finding mission. I will go over here and see what the hell is going on. What a joke.

Hey, I know this is a stupid question but do you think the injectors are polarized?
Wouldn't that be goof if they were and they reversed one. I really doubt it. Maybe they are diode blocked.

Will keep all posted on this one.

Thanks again
MT

[timsrv]

I don't think polarity matters. I've always hooked them up exactly like Toyota did "just because", but I've test fired them both ways. In testing there was no noticeable difference in current draw or spray pattern regardless of polarity. Tim

[MyToy]

Thanks Tim. Well I will cross that one off. We will see in the morning.
Let's see, you are in the north west right.
About 6 AM your time look to the south east. If you see a bright ball of fire, That's me.:pissed:

MY

[MyToy]

Looks like the mystery has been found with the fuel.
You may all want to do this.
The van was stored for 25 years. The owner was very careful when storing.
Loading up oil and fluids. Draining fuel tank, cleaning and then preserving the inside with some kind of preservative product. He was an engineer for Pratt and Whitney .
All fuel lines were drain and blown out with compressor.

After engine rebuild 6 months ago cylinder 3 went bad.

They said inject 3 bad. Replaced all injectors. Ran for 15 minutes and went bad again. Only this time cylinder was always wet (fuel). After looking at everything and testing everything include all the suggestions here, there was no conclusion. Then when he took the injectors out for the 4th time he saw this. The one half way covered is#4 and the one fully covered is #3.
Rust city. From where???? New filter installed after engine rebuild. Why only 3 and 4?
Turns out that the fuel pressure regulator is positioned just in front of injector feeding pipe and filter. Took regulator out and it was dirty with rust. Cut it in half and it all just poured out. This was the one area that did not get drained or blown. The rust went into the pipe an hits 4 first then 3. # three was so loaded with rust it stayed open causing it to be wet.
4 still got some but not enough to screw things up. 1 and 2 had none. I had a new regulator. It is all being finished today after they re-blew the lines clean again with the 4th intake manifold gasket.

Should pick up by tomorrow.
I will tell all of you how it runs when I get it.:dance2:

[timsrv]

Yes, your pics (above) are a very familiar sight to me. Diagnosing was a bit strange/troublesome, but without hands-on things can be hard to figure out. For some reason it's always #3 that gets plugged up 1st. For you (or anyone with this problem) I would highly recommend replacing the factory fuel filter with one like I put on. It's been covered in detail HERE (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working/page2). FWIW, with the factory filter mine was clogging #3 injector every 5k miles. After the filter mod I installed a pressure gauge to verify pressure/flow and I thought it would give me an indication of when the filter was beginning to clog. With the new filter, pressure remained constant and van ran good for 50k miles. Unfortunately #3 injector did eventually clog again (@50k miles), but considering it made it 10X longer, I considered it a success.

I think it's also possible I could have avoided (or at least prolonged) this issue had I changed filter elements on a more regular basis. Since the last episode I've begun replacing that filter element every 10k miles, but it's only been about 15k miles since then, so it will be at least 2 years before I hit the 50k mark again. Good luck. Tim

PS: As you can see in that thread (linked to previously in this post) the tank was cleaned thoroughly. The 1st clogging after that cleaning I attributed to rogue particles left over in the tank. After the next 3 episodes I started thinking there to be a hard caked-on residue inside my fuel lines. Each few hundred miles of constant flow likely dissolves and releases more particles into the system. On mine there is still ~3 feet of old steel line after the filter, and that could account for the last clogging of #3. Eventually I'm hoping this will clear itself up, but so far it's still been an issue (although much less after the filter mod). Tim

[MyToy]

Thanks Tim:

Why not just stick another glass filter in place. I use that on my plane. It allows me to see the if any dirt or rust in in the fuel line. This one is very critical since 99.5% of all airplane crashes are due to fuel.
Each time in use it gets purged so it never has a molecule of dirt in it. But the glass filter really does a nice job.
I think I may just stick that in line as a safety getting that inject out is a SoB.

MT

[timsrv]

Thanks Tim:

Why not just stick another glass filter in place.

If you can find one that's rated @ ~100 psi, then that could work. Our fuel systems are regulated to ~ 40 psi, but the pump is capable of much more. If the fuel pressure regulator fails, it's conceivable pressure could approach 100 psi, so I'd want my filter housing to be rated for at least this much. The filter system I'm using is rated for 200 psi. Tim

[MyToy]

Well Merry Christmas to all.

The Van has been picked up and is at least running. After 38 hours of labor and $780 in parts it runs on all 4. Started it up and the entire drivers seat shook so much it knocked the piss out of me (literately). I was so frustrated I just could not leave it there another month. Bunch of clowns. It seems to have all the power back, it is just the loud rush noise and vibration when given gas. I looked at it and it looks like it s a major exhaust lead under the driver seat. How could anyone return a vehicle to service like this?
Then there is the transmission. It is now jumping in and out of gears with throttle changes. Even when in over at 40mph and up. Then there is the idle that seems to gain as much as 500 rpm when at full operating temp. So still things to do that I will do myself. I will tap into the appropriate threads on these other subjects. At least it is home and will be given TLC.

Thanks to all

MT

[timsrv]

Well I hope they didn't actually charge you for all that labor. FYI, I'm a technician by trade and run a repair business. If/when something throws me for a loop (like this obviously did them), after all is said and done I calculate how much the job should have been (based on hindsight). Since everything was new from the recent rebuild, I would probably have charged 6 hrs (and ate the rest). I consider losses like that to be incentive to become a better tech. If unnecessary parts were put on, if it's too labor intensive to retrieve them, I eat those too. It hurts, but IMO stupidity is supposed to hurt.

FWIW, Injector problems are pretty basic. Since your van had a recent rebuild, a seasoned tech with hands on should have been able to figure it out without lavish tests like checking timing on each cylinder (that's pretty much hard wired into these). But, because the van is odd, for a decent ASE tech not familiar with the van layout, I'd be generous and give them as much as 10 hrs. If they messed up other things during the very lengthy & unnecessary "troubleshooting", then I'd be livid. Tim

[MyToy]

Thanks Tim:
Well no I have not paid them yet. The last time I went to pick it up I was so upset since it took them 4 weeks to put the injectors I I told them I would pay them the following week to give me drive time. They agreed and I never made it out of the lot. Now another 5 weeks have past and this is what I got. He told me to pay him what I thought was reasonable. Hmmm. Don't push me.

I went under neath to see if I could find this horrible noise and I found one fitting on the exhaust fitting that was leaking air. I could put my fingers around it and feel the the leak. But I think the noise is so bad it may be more. Transmission is also leaking now. Had them change the pan gasket and now a leak, not sure where yet.
And then there is the jumping in and out of gear deal.

So I will deal with all this. The van did not deserve such bad treatment. Here is a pic. I am building a show for the restoration that I will share when done.

Merry Christmas to all.