Click-No-Start (Starter, Ignition Switch and other Culprits) [Archive]

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glohworm

10-08-2010, 10:56 AM

Hi all,

Well, the van crapped out on me a few days ago with the dreaded "Click" sound. I pulled the starter and examined the copper contacts of the solenoid and they were surprisingly unworn! Had it bench tested and it was fine. I reviewed all the write ups from TVP on identifying the weak link in the system. When I turn the ignition to start, I get the click of the solenoid, but I also get a buzzing sound from somewhere near the fuse box. Could there be a relay or breaker involved in the starting process that hasn't been discussed that could cause this buzz?

I also priced an ignition switch at Auto Zone for $41.99. Is that a fair price?

Thanks all,

Gary

timsrv

10-08-2010, 11:38 AM

Have you checked the battery voltage and made sure the terminals are clean, tight, and corrosion free? What is the age and condition of the battery?

glohworm

10-08-2010, 12:36 PM

I should have mentioned this in the opening post. The battery voltage reads 12.5V and everything is clean and tight. It's that buzzing noise when I turn the ignition that is really throwing me for a loop!

Gary

timsrv

10-08-2010, 03:31 PM

Does it buzz with the ignition turned to the "on" position or only when you have it in the "start" position?

If it does that when in the "start" position, it could be a normal response from the circuit opening relay due to low voltage (low voltage could simply be a symptom of a larger problem). Double check all the connections of your big battery cables and inspect your FL 1.25B fusible link.

If you have a helper, have him/her try to crank it while you're checking the battery voltage. If the battery is fully charged, but drops to below 10v while they are trying to crank, then the battery is bad. Tim

glohworm

10-08-2010, 03:47 PM

You're correct Tim, it sounds off only when I go to start. The battery's 2 mos old and the starter is just fine. I'll follow your write up and trace the little wire backwards until I find the culprit. Thanks.

Gary

Vango303

11-27-2010, 03:23 AM

A little over a week ago, I was driving for about 25 minutes around town, stop and go, I parked for about 40 minutes, came out and the van wouldn't start. The sound was the same. Just a couple of clicks but the starter did not engage. I tried it 3 to 4 times. I checked the battery to see if anything seemed strange, it looked fine. Shook the terminal wires to see if anything was loose and nothing was. I looked at the motor to see if anything looked super strange, it looked normal. I tried it again and on about the 6th attempt (about the 10th total) it started right up. Concerned, I drove home and found this post and went and checked the FL 1.25 fusible link and it looks fine. My battery read 12.6V and dropped to about 10.9V when it turned over... The problem is that it has started on the first crank ever since I got home that night and I do not know what to check. To what write up and small wire do you refer?

llamavan

11-27-2010, 03:47 AM

The write-up Gary refers to is The Fusible Link Thread (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?136-The-fusible-link-thread), which discusses the "small wire" and if you go to this thread (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?132-Need-Positive-battery-cable-replacement.), you'll find out the rest of Gary's story (I think I need to merge these two threads :dizzy:).

A drop to 10.9 volts ain't great, but it is (as you now know) workable.

I'd be suspicious of the starter contacts, personally — "click-click" is usually the starter talking (can be the contacts or poor connections); "gruh-ruh" is a weeny battery (because the starter is working, so the engine does begin to turn over). The sound of nothing at all is bad battery connections or, for 2nd generation vans, an issue with the clutch neutral start switch ... and I suppose for any van with an A/T that's not in park, but I'm no good at A/T stuff so don't take my word for that ... and I don't know what sounds expired ignition switches make, but I'd expect that's a big nothing, too.

The one time I had a van's starter fail, the van occasionally did the "click-click" thing and then worked just dandy for awhile, repeat, repeat with the "click-click" no-starts closer together, until it was totally dead and I had to get a pull-start from a rancher out in Fort Rock (go ahead, check that one on the map!). I seem to recall it took a month or more to fully kick the bucket. Back then I was ignorant; now I would plan to replace or rebuild the starter within a week or so and I wouldn't get myself stuck out in the boonies.

Gwen

Vango303

11-27-2010, 12:58 PM

Thank you for the reply. I looked at the fusible link thread and realized that I am pretty familiar with that small wire, we have met before. Christmas dash lights issue when I got the van.

I don't think that I adequately described the clicking sound when I turned the key. When i turned the key, all the usual dash lights came on, and when I turned it further to start there was a single click, that I was not sure of the origin, and then an almost electrical buzz in the dash above the radio, but I did not hear the starter turning or attempting to turn at all. Maybe the single click was starter, but it sounded more like the click came from inside the van.

The van came with no repair records so I have no idea of the age of the battery. What is a reasonable range for the voltage to read before and while starting the van?

trestlehed

11-27-2010, 03:53 PM

llamavan

11-27-2010, 07:09 PM

You would hear starter clicks from the starter area (under the passenger seat), so that changes things. Additionally, IME, starter clicks come in groups, usually pairs.

The main relay for the ignition is on the upper left corner of the fuse block; that could be the single click you heard. If so, "click" is good; that means adequate electricity got to it and it functions.

The buzz is probably from the Circuit Opening Relay, part of the EFI system (it's the only relay in that location — in the dash above the radio — or anywhere near it that would be active when you go to start the van). Why it's buzzing, whether that's good or bad, what the thing actually does, and what to do next are totally outta my league at this time. Hopefully Tim or someone else can take off with it from here.

Gwen

timsrv

11-29-2010, 04:59 AM

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I had a busy weekend with family due to the Thanksgiving holiday. There are several possibilities here, but before doing anything, inspect your battery cables and terminal ends to make sure they are clean and tight. If you find anything wrong or even questionable in this area, fix it 1st because you'll feel like an idiot if you spend time and money on this problem only to find out it was a loose or corroded battery terminal :doh:. The next thing to do is have your battery evaluated. If the battery is old (over 5 years) and/or looks bad, then it might be a good idea to just replace anyhow. 10.9 volts while cranking is actually pretty good, so in your case I would probably move on to the next step. Like Llamavan pointed out, having worn starter contacts is by far the most common cause of intermittent starter activation.

The starter and solenoid are included in one assembly. The starter is constantly supplied with 12v directly from the battery via the large cable. In order for the starter to engage, it needs 12vdc delivered to it via the small trigger wire. Troubleshooting this circuit can be easy IF (and that's a big IF) the problem can be readily duplicated. Of course this problem is usually intermittent, and this makes troubleshooting aggravating (because chances are it won't act up when you want it to). If by chance you can make it act up for testing, then you've got it made. Using a volt meter check for power at the small starter wire while somebody tries to crank. Warning: make sure van is in park with emergency brake set. Ramps are good, but if you are using jacks, make sure the van is secure on jack stands before climbing under! If there is 10vdc or more at this point when somebody is trying to crank but you only get a click, then the problem is in the starter and the next step is to remove the starter. If however there is less than 10vdc your problem is in the starter circuit and you can skip the part of removing the starter.

For the sake of this post, I'm going to assume you won't be able to duplicate the problem for testing and we'll move right along to the "inspect and repair" part.

What causes the typical Toyota starter problem is uneven contact wear. Due to the polarity of DC current, most of the wear occurs on only one contact (the battery cable side) while the other (starter motor side) remains mostly untouched. When one contact becomes smaller than the other, electrical contact becomes intermittent and may or may not make a complete electrical connection (with the solenoid disc) when you try to start. When this happens (usually at or around 100k miles) you will hear a click at the starter, but little else. Multiple attempts to start will usually get the job done, but after a while, even that trick stops working. At that point, some owners will resort to banging the starter with a hammer, rock, or anything else they can find while another person tries to crank :no:. Yes, that actually works, but considering all that hassle, I say fix the damn thing and be done with it :dizzy:. I'm not saying this is your problem, but if your van has over 100k miles, and you don't know the history on the starter, then this is a good place to start.

Getting the starter off is pretty easy so I'm not going to get into great detail on that. If you have basic tools and basic mechanical skills then you will figure it out. The one thing I will say regarding starter removal is: DISCONNECT THE BATTERY 1ST!!! Because it's no fun to perform accidental welding with battery cables :doh:.

Once you get the starter out and on the bench, remove the 3 screws on the solenoid housing and remove the cover. Here is what you will see inside:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/startercontacts-1.jpg

It's the contact on the top that wears out. Here is what a problem one looks like:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/IMG_0259.jpg

Toyota sells a kit for about $10 - $15 that will fix the worn contact problem. It's Toyota part #28226-72010. It comes with one contact, a post, a nut, an o-ring, and the plastic insulator piece.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/IMG_0254.jpg

You should get the Toyota kit if your stud or or any of the other included parts are messed up, but typically all you really need is the contact. I found a guy on eBay that sells just the contacts for about $4 each. The advertised shipping is a little high, but if you select 1st class mail when you pay the shipping is actually quite reasonable. Since this is a common failure on the Toyota starters, I always keep a few of these around. Here is a picture of the eBay contacts:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/IMG_0251.jpg

Here is a link to an auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nippondenso-Denso-Starter-Solenoid-Contacts-New-017-/350472481213?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item5199c9a9bd#ht_780wt_905

If this listing is gone or sold out, just do a search for "Denso starter contacts" and you should get several hits. There is another Denso contact that looks the same as ours, but won't fit correctly, so just be sure to get the one with the 8mm hole (the ones that won't fit correctly have 10mm holes).

Due to price, it might make more sense to replace both contacts & the plunger. http://www.ebay.com/itm/STARTER-REPAIR-REBUILD-KIT-SOLENOID-CONTACT-PLUNGER-SET-Toyota-Denso-NEW-/141695813725?hash=item20fdba885d:g:URQAAOSwtExVgbL 5&vxp=mtr (picture below)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/starter%20contacts%20w%20plugner_zpsx0oplziv.jpg

FYI, I haven't purchased one of these sets yet, so I cannot attest to quality/longevity, but if you're old plunger is scored and/or has an irregular surface, then I'd have to say the cheap set is better than your old parts. If you search eBay for this, I'm sure you will be able to find a higher quality set if you're willing to spend more $$$. If the eBay link above is expired, Here's a link to a similar kit on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Solenoid-Rebuild-CHEVROLET-PONTIAC-Contacts/dp/B00DQ9XILU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1429722439&sr=8-4&keywords=starter+plunger+toyota+van

If you don't want to wait for shipping, some Toyota dealers and most auto electric shops will sell just the contacts without the hardware. Some shops have them but don't want to waste their time selling these small individual parts. If they have them and the guy working the counter is friendly, it's likely he will sell to you for about $5 each. Some guys will just give you one for a smile :). If you get them that way you'll probably need to bring an old one in for correct match-up.

Okay, so if you do all this and there's still a problem....... That sucks! but it's an old vehicle so consider it as routine maintenance :wnk:. Chances are it was getting close anyhow and the last thing you need is multiple problems to troubleshoot at the same time.

If the problem ends up being in the starter circuit, the good news it's a pretty basic circuit and only a few things can go wrong. I marked up the electrical schematic below with red so you can see the path of the small starter wire circuit. I also took some pics and marked the potential problem spots with the purple arrows. If you look at the schematic, you will see it starts at the battery and ends up at the starter. I doubt you have a problem with the 1st 2 fusible links shown because problems here would create other more serious problems elsewhere.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/startercircuit-1.jpg

The 1st potential problem area after the battery would be the spot marked 60A FL AM1. What they are referring to is the yellow fuseible link in the fuse box behind your power steering reservoir pictured here. I doubt this is your problem (for the same reasons I doubt it would be the other 2 fusible links), but you should at least take a quick look to make sure there are no burn marks or corrosion.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/aIMG_9751-1.jpg

The next stop on the way to the starter is your ignition switch. On an old van, this could likely be your problem. To give you an idea what it looks like, here is a picture of some used ones removed from the steering column:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/starterswitch-1.jpg

Loose, corroded, or burned pins inside this connection are a potential problem so pull this plug and inspect inside. Pay particular attention to the white/green wire in the #4 position (comes from the AM1 Fusible link). The black/white wire in the #1 position is also an important one to scrutinize as it goes from the ignition switch to the neutral start switch. FWIW, the contacts inside the switch are much more likely than the connector to be the problem. Here is a picture to show you it's position in the van:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/aIMG_9742-1.jpg

If by chance you're able to duplicate the problem for testing, now would be a good time to test the ignition switch. For testing, take the black lead of your meter and ground it to the chassis. Now touch the red lead to the solder joint on the back of the switch (the one that corresponds to the white/green harness wire). Note: when identifying wires, don't trust color coding on the component (as these may vary). Use the harness side to identify your circuit. In cases where harness color varies from component color you'll need to make a note of that when identifying the correct solder joint.

With your meter in place, try to crank the van and record voltage. Now touch the red meter lead to the solder joint that corresponds with the black/white harness wire. Try to start again and record voltage. When compared the 2 voltage readings should be no more than 1vdc apart (preferably less than .5v). If there is an excessive volt drop here then congratulations! You just diagnosed a bad ignition switch! If it tested good then it's time to move on to the neutral start switch.

Here are some used & homeless neutral start switches:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/Neutralstartswitch-1.jpg

Here is one in it's natural habitat (PS transmission under the van):
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/aIMG_9746-1.jpg

Okay, so the neutral safety switch could be the problem here, but so could the connection point for it. The next picture shows the position of the 2 harness plugs on your van. Disconnect and inspect inside these 2 plugs for burns or corrosion. (note: this is accessible through your power steering reservoir access panel)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/aIMG_9748-1.jpg

If these look good & assuming you're able to duplicate the problem for testing, hook these back up and test here for voltage drops during cranking (you'll probably need a helper for this one). Same rule applies on voltage drops.

Okay, the next connection in route to the starter is right between the oil filter and the fuel filter. Check this one too:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/aIMG_9745-1.jpg

And of course, the final connection here could also be the culprit.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Starter%20circuit/aIMG_9743-1.jpg

All of the above things need to be in good working order. If any one or more of the above items has a bad or questionable connection, then it should be addressed. If your inspection reveals nothing, but you still occasionally have the problem (assuming you cannot duplicate the problem for testing), the next step is to start replacing parts. If you get to this stage, I would begin with the ignition switch. If that doesn't help move on to the neutral start switch.

If by chance you're lucky enough to be able to duplicate problem for testing, check voltage at the starter while a helper tries to crank. You should check voltage to both main starter cable and trigger wire. If you see less than 10vdc any time during testing you should go back to the battery and verify it has more than 12vdc. If you are seeing low voltage in the circuit & the battery is over 12vdc, then back-track to battery checking various points along the way. Once you have found the place the voltage drops, you have found the problem.

Also, as mentioned earlier, I can't stress enough the importance of checking the big battery cables on both ends.........this includes the chassis ground connection and the big post on the starter. Make sure all connections are clean and tight. Good luck. Tim

PS: If your van has a 5 speed transmission, you won't have a neutral safety switch, but don't forget to check the clutch start relay and the clutch start switch.

Vango303

11-30-2010, 12:44 PM

Thank you Tim,

I will follow your directions and investigate the van today, the temperature has reached the 30s.

When I wired in the previously bypassed 2.0A, 1.25B and the FL 0.5G yellow fusible links, I used the wrong size connection ring to positive terminal for the yellow link. I am going to change that today.

Also the day after I got the van, I had a muffler and catalytic converter installed. I was able to walk under it. I noticed a blue wire dangling from right behind the engine on the passenger side. There were other issues, leaking power steering fluid and the lit up dash lights, so I didn't think much of it.

When I changed the fluids in the differentials and transfer case, I was not able to loosen any of the check/fill 21mm bolts so I had to go to a Toyota shop and ask them to remove them and replace them with new bolts that I could remove. I have since acquired a breaker bar. Anyway when the van was in the air, I asked the service technician about the dangling blue wire, he pulled out about a 5-8 foot length of wire that was attached to the starter but nothing else. He gave it a yank and it was no longer attached to the starter. He just shrugged and said he had no idea what it was for. I thought it was worth mentioning.

The technician and sales rep both seemed more interested in the aftermarket cruise control system that someone had installed at some point but does not currently work.

I am not sure if the wrong connector to positive terminal for yellow fusible link (does not appear to be involved by wiring schematic), the mystery blue wire previously connected to starter, or aftermarket cruise control may be the problem either, I just thought you should know all that I know.

Again, thank you for your help and I will report back.

timsrv

11-30-2010, 01:01 PM

If I had to guess, I would say the previous owner had the same trouble with intermittent starts, so he bypassed the circuit with that blue wire??? Perhaps he had the other end of it hooked to a momentary switch some place up on the dash?

A bypass circuit is easy to hook up and would solve the problem IF the problem is in the circuit (not the starter). I don't recommend that though because it would also bypass safety measures built into the van. Good luck. Tim

Vango303

12-01-2010, 04:28 PM

I started at the battery posts and disconnected the battery at the negative post. The negative connection is clean and fine. The positive post has a mounting plate on a thin plastic base that secures to the positive battery post. The plate has two places that 5, in total, wires are connected to the positive terminal. The mounting plate has a 10 mm nut and bolt, moves horizontally, that secures the clamp to the positive post and connects the 4 small wires that lead to the fusible links and alternator. On the other side of the mounting plate there is a 12 mm bolt that moves vertically up and down that secures the beefy wire connected with a crimped on brass fitting. I assume that this beefy wire goes to the starter?. On my positive post clamp between the 12mm bolt and the sleeve that goes over the positive post the brass mounting plate has what looks like a cut in it. The brass mounting plate is around 3/4" wide and 1/16" thick only about half of it is conducting electricity.

I took it to the Toyota dealer and they said that the part is not made any more. I went to look at one of two vans that I have seen in yards and the positive clamp was gone. Is there a more modern connector that I could replace this with?/or would it be better to keep searching at salvage yards for a used one?

131

timsrv

12-01-2010, 10:44 PM

I wouldn't waste my time in a salvage yard for a part like this. Due to corrosion these have a limited life span. The one in your picture is not a stock Toyota terminal (it looks more like the light duty WalMart variety). I believe the stock Toyota ones are still available (Toyota part #90982-05030) because I got one recently. I get the Toyota ones just because I'm a stickler for details. Toyota is expensive though (about $10 - $15 depending on the dealer), so unless you really want it to be Toyota, I'd save your money and get one of the heavy duty WalMart jobs. Here's a picture of their marine grade terminal:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_0262.jpg

Of course you don't need to go to WalMart, this is a common problem on all cars (or anything that uses a car size battery), so they are available almost everywhere. Just make sure the eye terminals on all the wires and cables look clean and shiny before hooking them up. Also, since our battery covers are made of metal, I'd probably get rid of the wing nut and use a regular nut (because it will be easier to tighten down and it won't stick up as high). Tim

mahleek87

05-10-2011, 09:15 AM

Having this frustrating issue right now. I'm getting clicks from the starter but hitting it with a hammer does no good. Eventually after several attempts it finally engages and turns. Sometimes I also get a 2 second delay when I turn the key to the start positon before it starts turning. Does this mean I could have a problem in the starter and a possible bad ignition switch? I had a bad starter about two years where I would hit it with a hammer and it would fire right up. The starter I have now is about two years old.

timsrv

05-10-2011, 11:25 AM

I had a "new" (actually a rebuilt by Bosch) starter that was doing the same thing. I pulled it off and inspected the contacts inside (found them to be perfect)..........yet it still behaved like this. I ended up taking a stock Toyota starter with about 175k miles on it, put new contacts into it, and it worked flawlessly (I tossed the pretty new Bosch into my core pile).

The problem with rebuilt starters is they are now all over 20 years old. Most are still okay but there is going to be a higher incident of problems/defects as the core components are aging. In addition to this, the new components installed by most rebuilders are cheap aftermarket substitutes for the higher quality original parts. I'm not saying this is your problem, I'm just suggesting it as a possibility.

To rule this out, make sure your battery is good and fully charged, then rig up a voltmeter to your small solenoid wire (at the starter) and have somebody try to crank. If you see above 10.5 volts and it's not cranking, then the problem is in your starter. If the voltage is below that, then the problem is somewhere in the starter circuit. If the problem is in your starter, pop the solenoid cover off and inspect the contacts before condemning the entire starter. Tim

PS: Also check to make sure all the wires at the starter and the battery are clean and tight.

Burntboot

05-11-2011, 10:32 AM

I too have had this mysterious intermittent no start as described, after replacing several things (battery, starter, fusible links..) it would go away for awhile but always come back.
It only ever occurred when it was hot (min 45 mins runtime) shut off for a short time (less than an hour) and was VERY intermittent in nature.
It finally became more consistent and while poking around one day, I found the wiring to the POS remote terminal (under the drivers seat) to be routed poorly, and was actually an interference fit between the manifold and the harness, on taking it apart to reroute it, the ring terminal came off in me hand. There was also corrosion evident at the crimp.
Once corrected, no further problems have occurred and it has been over 3 months and 10K since.
Might be worth checking.

Bala

05-20-2011, 02:57 PM

I had this exact problem for well over a year...even after replacing the starter, neutral safety switch, fusible links, etc... I finally got my problem fixed just a couple of weeks ago. The problem...some prior hack had not properly wired the ignition to the proper current source. I had to simply change the power source connection for the ignition wiring. Look at your ignition wiring under the steering column. If it looks like someone had f@$&*ed with it, chances are that's your problem. Be sure by using a current tester while trying to turn the ignition. Basically, right now your starter is not always getting the proper current to crank the engine. Check your ignition wiring for improper connections.

thetoaster

07-22-2014, 10:33 PM

A bypass circuit is easy to hook up and would solve the problem IF the problem is in the circuit (not the starter). I don't recommend that though because it would also bypass safety measures built into the van. Good luck. Tim

:wall:

Tim I might need to know exactly how you would do that. I have my own ideas but I tend to like confirmation. My vans click click problem has gotten worse over the past month. So bad that it hasn't started in three days now. I've gone over everything mentioned in every thread I could find and everthing looks good. The only thing I haven't done is replace the neutral safety switch. I priced one and it is about 250. It's over the amount I'm willing to pay at this time. I understand your concerns with safety and usually value them. In this instance though I'd prefer to take the cheap road. If the bypass works and restores faith in the toaster then I'll get one down the line. If it doesn't send a flat bed to Cali and you can HAVE an 89 Cargo van. lol

As always thanks in advance for the help.

timsrv

07-23-2014, 12:26 AM

thetoaster

07-23-2014, 12:55 AM

Tim

Pretty much what I had in mind. A have a momentary plunger switch(30A) from another project that isn't in use right now. I was planning on using that with some 14 gauge wire for the time being. My plan was to splice into the ignition wire for one side and the starter solenoid for the other. Although the link you provided looks good for diag I need a slightly more useable solution. The starter is less than a year old. I pulled it the other day and it benched fine. I'm positive it's the neutral safety switch at this point.

The only other thing I can think of is to bypass the neutral safety switch. That seems like it would be more involved than just doing the starter bypass.

timsrv

07-23-2014, 01:02 AM

The way to test it is to have somebody try to crank while you're checking voltage at the starter trigger wire. If it reads more than 2 volt less than actual battery voltage (during the same scenario), then you'll want to track the circuit backwards towards the power source until you find the place that's losing volts. 2 most likely places are the starter switch and the neutral safety switch. Of course every connection point is a potential trouble spot. Sometimes you'll find "accumulated losses" (little bits of loss at multiple locations). Tim

thetoaster

07-23-2014, 01:11 AM

That's been tested. Like I said it's doing the click full time now. I've got the better part of 6 hours after work into it at this point. The voltages are all within acceptable tolerance. That's why I'm sure it's the NSS. Just so you understand the steps I've taken a used this p (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?126-Ignition-switch-question&p=966&viewfull=1#post966)ost of yours to trouble shoot. As well as most stuff burntboot has posted in numerous threads. I can't find any fault in the sytem other than the NSS. And ,honestly, right now I can't afford to replace it. That will change in a few months but I'd rather have use of the van in the meantime.

EDIT: Sorry about the crappy link. I'm two tired to fix it right now but click the p in post. lol

timsrv

07-23-2014, 04:28 AM

So how many volts are at the starter trigger wire when it goes click?

thetoaster

07-23-2014, 07:39 PM

It reads about 11.7 give or take a few hundreths. According to your post I thought that to be acceptable. If you think not I'll start chasing wiring. Maybe not until next week though as it's hitting 104 here for the next few days.

timsrv

07-24-2014, 12:05 AM

11.7 is good. Sounds like a bad starter. It does happen, I've seen it a few times. Pull the cover where the plunger and contacts are. If there's a problem with any of these parts, replace them. If they look good, replace the starter.

thetoaster

07-24-2014, 12:11 AM

I should have mentioned pulling and benching the starter has been done. It benched fine. Hence why I think it's the neutral safety switch. Have you seen many go bad or do you really think I'm barking up the wrong tree?

timsrv

07-24-2014, 01:28 AM

If you have 11.7 Volts at the starter trigger wire and all it does is click, assuming the starter case is grounded, the problem is in the starter. If the starter case isn't properly grounded, that could explain a few things. Check your battery ground cable. It goes from the battery to the frame, then over to the driver's side motor mount bolt. If there's any corrosion, loose connections, frayed wires, etc, replace it. the stock ground cables are okay when everything is new & shiny. They can become the source of issues like yours when they become 20 something years old. Here's a few pics of my old cable next to a new one I made up.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_2393.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_2394.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_2396.jpg

thetoaster

07-24-2014, 08:25 PM

Tim

First thanks for pointing to the starter. I'm so stressed for time my brain seems to be not functioning. If I have good voltage at the starter wire than it can't be the NSS. I don't know how I managed to miss that. lol

As far as the ground wires go I replaced them all about a year and a half ago when I was going through the charging issues. I used 4 gauge instead of the factory 8 but I'll get under and double check them again. I'll also pull the starter again and inspect it more closely. I still can't figure out how it's benching and not engaging when in the vehicle.

As always thanks for the insight and catching my error.:redface:

timsrv

07-25-2014, 06:57 AM

It's not common, but as a mechanic I've had starters before that would bench test good but not function in the vehicle. Bench testing provides the starter with "best case scenario" when it comes to trigger wire voltage, large wire voltage, and the fact it's operating at no load. Sometimes a starter with a problem will function in such an environment, but not in the "real world" environment the van provides. You should also take a very good look at both battery terminals and the positive wire from the battery to the starter. Tim

thetoaster

07-26-2014, 05:23 PM

And the results are in.
1834
Ground wire issues. Not the ones most users would think of. With a couple of amps, inverter, and a dedicated charging solenoid, all hooked up to a marine battery.

1833

The second amp is to the left on this photo. The charging solenoid is visible directly under the amp.

1835

Here's a bad shot of the full system. Notice the detached grounds from both amps and the marine battery?

1836

Notice again how crappy these ground leads are? That's why I detatched them. There has to be a better way.

1837

So the better way, for me, was to wire both the amps to the marine battery negative. Then find a solid ground for the marine negative. Tim, you can hate me later for the ground I've used. It was the shortest route. You guessed it. The seat belt holder.

If I get shocked I'll know why.

Long story even longer now. When I first tested the van after my charging circuit issues it had 13.35 at the battery and the solenoid. Now it has an astonishing 14.25. Grounds do matter. And it takes a van geek such as yourself to point that out to the rest of us wanna be van geeks.

When the toaster has run it's course it's yours. Even if I have to drive it up there.

More thanks than you know.

timsrv

07-26-2014, 06:15 PM

:dance2:

thetoaster

07-26-2014, 06:53 PM

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/SmileyHappyDance.gif

and

https://heyfriends.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/dancing.gif?w=900

thetoaster

08-01-2014, 10:36 PM

f it doesn't send a flat bed to Cali and you can HAVE an 89 Cargo van. lol

As always thanks in advance for the help.

Quoting myself here to thank Tim again for the oversight on my end. I'm also quoting myself here because I didn't include body shots of the toaster in this thread. . Being a man of my word and thankful for all the issues he(and others) have helped me resolve, and knowing in other threads, Tim has expressed interest in owning a cargo van I fell complied to post thetoaster in full frontal. So here's the rest of my 89 cargo van(2wd:violn:).

1847

1845

1846

1848

Sorry about the photos taking with my phone being horizontally challenged. Rest assured I'm on the phone with Google, the NSA, and the sites servers to find out who is really to blame for this visual blunder. lol

Chester

08-11-2014, 10:51 AM

Thanks for this great write up! I too have recently had a van won't start issue, my click sounded like "mulunk" from both the steering column and up near the glove box. Had it towed into my mechanic, not the starter, needs a neutral safety switch. May be available from Toyota for about $300, plus install. There is an Airtex/ Wells part available off rock auto for $145 plus shipping. There are a couple of vans at near pick n pulls, that are automatics. My questions are several. How often does this switch die? Can I pull it off a used van and expect it to last a while? ( my van has 207,000 miles, is this a freak failure?) If I can't go used, can I go with the rock auto one for half the price? Thanks!

timsrv

08-12-2014, 04:31 AM

I've had several vans with more miles & have never had a neutral safety switch fail. I'm sure it happens, but just not very often. I wouldn't hesitate to trust a used one........even a well used one. Tim

Chester

08-25-2014, 05:34 PM

I got a neutral safety switch for $200 plus $27 shipping From toyota parts overstock online. Right after I ordered it, I pulled one from a used van from a pick n pull ( helps me learn how to install it). Installed the new one, van starts up. I can sell you the old one I pulled for what I got it for plus shipping. My email is fmchester@gmail.com

highwind

07-01-2015, 11:00 PM

just charged the battery today and going to put it in tomorrow, pretty sure Im going to get 1 click again. Van isnt throwing codes either

austinfromflorida

07-03-2015, 04:53 PM

Highwind, I had that happen to a van sitting for about that time here in Fla also. I knew the battery was good, I remembered toying with the transmission shifting and actually got it to turn over. I went from neutral to park as I was holding the key all the way forward a few times and its worked. I'm not sure what damage I could be doing but so far so good. I've also tapped on the starter with a hammer (lightly) as someone else is turning the ignition over and got them to go. Sorry this infos' hillbilly but its worked for me..

vanalogs

07-05-2015, 11:42 AM

I just got home from a 1600 mile trip, on mile 200ish I turned the key and click... Tapping the starter is your best bet in this situation. It shocks the starter. Hope it works out. It worked out for me I made it all the way

highwind

07-11-2015, 11:37 AM

replaced the starter, apparently advanced auto parts has starters (if it breaks we'll replace it) type deal

i sometimes can start the van in PARK, but sometimes I have to start it in NEUTRAL and move it into PARK. (weird) might have to adjust that cable.

gushaman

09-27-2015, 09:28 PM

eb4973

12-30-2015, 10:33 PM

The starter has 2 wires going to it, the large battery cable & the smaller trigger wire. If you got a mechanic's remote starter switch (http://www.amazon.com/OTC-3650-Heavy-Duty-Remote-Starter/dp/B002YKFA3G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1406092372&sr=8-2&keywords=mechanic%27s+remote+starter+switch), all you have to do is unhook the small wire (pulls right out of the starter), put one clip of the switch to the vacant starter terminal, and put the other clip to the stud for the big wire. Now when you push the button the starter will crank. If the starter goes "click" then the problem is in the starter. If it cranks, then the problem is in the trigger wire circuit. If you mess around with this, I'd recommend not making it permanent. Switches like this are helpful for troubleshooting, but not as a permanent solution. Bad things can happen if the vehicle is started accidentally at a bad time. Vehicle could also be started in gear.......with you underneath it...:yikes:...stuff like that can ruin your whole day. :yes:

Three weeks later, when I got the one click sound again, I couldn't believe that the starter had died again. I kept turning the key, and after about the 5th time, it started right up, no problem, and I moved parking spaces. The next morning, however, we had the same problem. Click, click, click, start. The lights never dimmed, and when it finally did crank it seemed to have full power. So all that day we were able to start it after turning the key several times. The next morning, however, we tried many more times than usual, but couldn't get it to start. So I got under the car and removed the small ignition wire with the plastic clip, and touched that connection on the starter to the big command terminal on the starter. Doing that, it has started every single time, no problem. The trouble is, I don't like to have to crawl under the van every time it won't start, in a grocery store parking lot or after getting gas.

Someone posted this for a 91 Previa. would this work on my 1988 van. I'm just trying to get it home to be able to diagnose the starter problem.

Thanks :)

timsrv

12-31-2015, 03:36 AM

Three weeks later, when I got the one click sound again, I couldn't believe that the starter had died again. I kept turning the key, and after about the 5th time, it started right up, no problem, and I moved parking spaces. The next morning, however, we had the same problem. Click, click, click, start. The lights never dimmed, and when it finally did crank it seemed to have full power. So all that day we were able to start it after turning the key several times. The next morning, however, we tried many more times than usual, but couldn't get it to start. So I got under the car and removed the small ignition wire with the plastic clip, and touched that connection on the starter to the big command terminal on the starter. Doing that, it has started every single time, no problem. The trouble is, I don't like to have to crawl under the van every time it won't start, in a grocery store parking lot or after getting gas.

Someone posted this for a 91 Previa. would this work on my 1988 van. I'm just trying to get it home to be able to diagnose the starter problem.

Thanks :)

Based on what you said it sounds as if the starter itself is fine. Probably bad/failing contacts in the ignition switch or perhaps a bad connection somewhere else in the trigger circuit. With intermittent issues, the problem areas typically drop (lose) voltage while under load. The starter solenoid needs at least 10.5 volts to reliably engage, so if this circuit loses any more than 3 volts, the starter will become unreliable or not function at all.

I was also experiencing this same issue on my 86, but every time I started troubleshooting, the problem would remedy itself (sometimes these issues will vary based on conditions or other factors & can be hard to track down). Since I knew the circuit was functional (just weak), and since voltage loss is directly proportional to load, I took the load off the circuit by installing a Bosch relay. Now all the trigger circuit needs to do is activate the coil of the relay (very small load) and the relay supplies power to the starter directly from the battery. I can't guaranty this will work for you, but it completely solved my problem. Before the relay mod this was happening about once a week. I installed the relay over a year/15k miles ago and the problem hasn't come back since. Good luck. Tim

eb4973

12-31-2015, 10:04 AM

Based on what you said it sounds as if the starter itself is fine. Probably bad/failing contacts in the ignition switch or perhaps a bad connection somewhere else in the trigger circuit. With intermittent issues, the problem areas typically drop (lose) voltage while under load. The starter solenoid needs at least 10.5 volts to reliably engage, so if this circuit loses any more than 3 volts, the starter will become unreliable or not function at all.

I was also experiencing this same issue on my 86, but every time I started troubleshooting, the problem would remedy itself (sometimes these issues will vary based on conditions or other factors & can be hard to track down). Since I knew the circuit was functional (just weak), and since voltage loss is directly proportional to load, I took the load off the circuit by installing a Bosch relay. Now all the trigger circuit needs to do is activate the coil of the relay (very small load) and the relay supplies power to the starter directly from the battery. I can't guaranty this will work for you, but it completely solved my problem. Before the relay mod this was happening about once a week. I installed the relay over a year/15k miles ago and the problem hasn't come back since. Good luck. Tim

Hi Tim,

I guess I'm not asking the question in the best way. My van is stuck down the road. It is the starter issue with the single click sound when trying to turn it over. The first thing I want to do is get it home. I't may or may not start when I get back to where I left it. So I saw this information about a Previa that was started by:

"So I got under the car and removed the small ignition wire with the plastic clip, and touched that connection on the starter to the big command terminal on the starter."

I'm wondering if I can start my van this way if it wont turn over with the key. I'm just trying to get it home so I can fix it. I have no money so this is an emergency fix on the fly. I have another started that was pulled from an 84. I think if my starter is beat I can replace it with this one.

Thanks for your time, eb4973

timsrv

12-31-2015, 11:19 AM

So all that day we were able to start it after turning the key several times. The next morning, however, we tried many more times than usual, but couldn't get it to start. So I got under the car and removed the small ignition wire with the plastic clip, and touched that connection on the starter to the big command terminal on the starter. Doing that, it has started every single time, no problem. The trouble is, I don't like to have to crawl under the van every time it won't start, in a grocery store parking lot or after getting gas.:)

So I'm confused.........if you are saying it used to start this way but now it doesn't :cnfsd:, then you may have 2 problems now. If applying power directly to the trigger wire stopped working, assuming all your cable connections/terminals are clean and tight, then now it has also become a problem with the starter........tough luck. So after you repair/replace your starter you'll still have the trigger wire circuit issue to deal with. Good luck. Tim

PS: In re-reading I can't help but think I still don't get it. Are you talking about 2 different vehicles? If you're talking about a Previa, it doesn't matter. Although physically non-interchangeable, Previa and van starters function the same (same rules apply to both). If the jumper wire trick and/or banging on the housing doesn't work, then you'll either be pulling your starter in a parking lot or you'll be having it towed.

thetoaster

03-19-2016, 01:09 PM

I had the starting problem for a year and a half before I finally had a bypass starter switch installed.
2 new starters, new ignition switch, new neutral safety switch, several electrical trouble shooting campaigns, new battery cables, rebuilt starter with new copper contacts & new plunger, fusible link checked and tested ok, new big-ass battery, etc. But in the end the starter bypass switch was the only solution.

Check this thread on TVP which explains the story:

http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7021&p=58927#p58927

Add me to the list of can't figure it out. I'm about to by-pass the whole system. For the past year my van, that I've only been using on weekends, has had the click issue. I did what I always do and blamed the starter since that is exactly how the issue presents itself. Went from having to tap it gently once every 50 starts to having the beat it every other start. My free times been a little short the past six months and we do have another vehicle that runs fine so it was put on the back shelf.

Yesterday I got around to replacing the starter. I pulled it and put in the new one with less then the usual amount of swearing. So that went pretty smoothly. Got out from under the van, hooked the battery back up and she fired over. Yeah, big smile on a job well done. So, I shut her down and went ahead and put all my tools away. Came out a few minutes later and "click". That's when the swearing really began. I've already apologized to the neighbors for the rapid and long string of expletives that followed.

I went to get my wife so she could crank it over while I tapped the BRAND NEW starter. One little baby tap and it kicked right over. Now I can't re-produce the issue. As you all know the issue will wait till the best time to present itself. I'm willing to bet that time will be when I'm up in the mountains fishing with not a sole around. My vans evil like that.

I didn't think to check the site until after I got the van fired back up and now I can't re-reproduce it to follow Tim's guide for diagnosing. I'm gonna go out and trace and volt meter what I can and see if I can find anything. And keep starting the van to see if I can re-produce to make my life easier with chasing this thing. Any ideas are welcome.

@trestlehed, the reason I quoted you was I'm to lazy to sign up for the other site and read your adventures. So how exactly did you bybass the system?

Thanks guys.

timsrv

03-19-2016, 02:55 PM

thetoaster

03-19-2016, 04:21 PM

If you bypass the system, you will also be bypassing safety protocols. Probably not a big deal if you're the only one to drive, but bad things can happen if it's allowed to start while in gear. This is why I fixed mine by installing the Bosch relay (my post #41 this thread). I recently explained it in more detail on another thread:

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?3578-New-owner-couple-questions!&p=20678#post20678

Since you're having the same problem with a different (new) starter, this makes me think your problem is the ignition switch or perhaps an "accumulation" of losses in multiple parts of the circuit. This is the perfect scenario for the Bosch relay mod. Mine used to act up with about the same frequency as yours. Since adding the relay it hasn't acted up once......and that was over a year ago. Tim

BTW, if you haven't already, make sure your battery posts & all cable connections are tight and clean. The big cables should be checked for tightness/cleanliness at the other ends too (both positive and ground).

Thanks for the input Tim. I should have pointed out that all posts where clean and tight. Grounds are oversized and clean and tight as well.

I was able to reproduce the issue just now. I went to the starter trigger wire and had my wife turn over the van. 11.85 at the trigger wire. Then I went to the ignition switch to check there. 11.85 and 11.95 so there within .1v of each other.

Thanks to your guide I'm pretty sure I just got a bad starter. Now to go yell at the auto parts store.

Thanks again man.

timsrv

03-19-2016, 04:53 PM

Yes, unfortunately these starter cores are getting old and even after "rebuild" they can be problematic. After experiencing this a few times myself, I actually consider the old OEM original units better than the rebuilds. This is why I recommend replacing the contacts & maybe the plunger rather than changing starters. If by chance new contacts and plunger don't solve, and you can verify correct trigger voltage (like you just did), only then will I give my OEM starter to the parts guy as a core........just pull your new parts out of it before letting them have it :wnk: Good luck. Tim

LightBlueToy

07-29-2017, 10:29 PM

So happy I got to rip out this starter bypass hackjob today!!! Having to push in a finnicky high current switch every time I started the van was getting old. Tim's lengthy post in this thread was very helpful.

569656975698

I had to make up a wire that goes from the harness to the small signalling connector on the starter. I am not too satisfied with using disconnects/spade connectors like I did though. Feels kind of flimsy. Does anyone know where I can get the male end of these connectors? Pick n pull my only option? This is probably an obvious answer but some quick web searching and a trip to the auto parts store didn't yield anything. I have circled said connector in the photo. Thanks!

5699

James Zueger

11-18-2017, 08:46 PM

I've had this same problem of the starter only occasionally working on 2 of my vans. Selenoid would click but starter would only crank if I jumpered a wire to it. Previous owner had one rigged up with a push button start. After tracing the circuit (provided by Tim, thanks), cleaning, temporarily bypassing fuses, pulling and checking neutral safety switch, etc., what seems to have worked is I left the rubber seals out of the connection to the neutral safety switch. I could be entirely wrong and something else was corrected in the process but it worked on both vans. It might be something worth trying (not too difficult) before you get too far involved. Jim Z

JDM VANMAN

11-19-2017, 12:26 AM

:whs:

Mine started acting up as well and the voltage drop was in a wire connected to the neutral safety switch, once the corroded wire was removed/replaced and all cleaned up the van is starting the way it should:dance2:

JDM

PNW vanwagon

11-19-2017, 11:41 AM

my van recently had intermittent starting issues. turning the key all the way to turn the engine over resulted in nothing but dash lights. moved the steering wheel mechanism up and down, checked the battery connections and inspected the ignition switch harness. only happened rarely and then got progressively worse. worrisome for my wife and kid getting stranded

it was the two electrical connections to the starter! the maintenance records i inherited with my van showed the valve cover gasket replaced couple years ago. there was some crusty goo on some of the underside of the van. i cleaned the connections to the starter with electrical cleaner and a brush.

all has been good since then!

James Zueger

11-19-2017, 11:56 AM

That could have been the problem with mine and just working with the plug jostled the wires inside but I really didn't find corrosion anywhere - I cleaned anyway. Jim Z
p.s. tore the starter apart and cleaned contacts, tore into ignition, took apart fuse block (behind p.s. resevoir) etc. etc. etc. - click click no start - bang head, bang head:pissed::pissed::pissed:, go at it again and again and again - then it works with doing something simple :):):). Jim Z

PNW vanwagon

12-24-2017, 03:45 PM

i've done a lot of research recently on installing a bypass starter switch - to get a better power draw to the starter and as a theft deterrent. i think i roughly understand how to install myself:

do you just run an appropriate gauge wire from positive battery terminal into a push button / switch and then run another wire out of the switch to the big fat post of the starter? do you turn the key and flip switch simultaneously with this set up or just flip switch to start?

boogieman

12-24-2017, 05:34 PM

while its probably not 'safe' mine came with a remote starter switch and ive left it...you want to wire from fat terminal to switch back to smaller spade...when you unhook the trigger wire going to the starter spade the key no longer activates the starter..so keu to on then hit your remote button to start...problem is, the engine will crank anytime the button is pushed regardless of key on or off..

spacecruisers

12-31-2017, 05:57 PM

If you have 11.7 Volts at the starter trigger wire and all it does is click, assuming the starter case is grounded, the problem is in the starter. If the starter case isn't properly grounded, that could explain a few things. Check your battery ground cable. It goes from the battery to the frame, then over to the driver's side motor mount bolt. If there's any corrosion, loose connections, frayed wires, etc, replace it. the stock ground cables are okay when everything is new & shiny. They can become the source of issues like yours when they become 20 something years old. Here's a few pics of my old cable next to a new one I made up.

Tim, mind if I ask the length/gauge of wire you used? What about the lugs, what size are those? seems like 3/8" and 5/16" are the common sizes.

I'd like to fab up a new negative battery cable, my original cable is showing its age.

If its not too much I might do the positive battery cable as well, how long is that one and where does it run? Sorry, id go look but I don't have a garage so my vans sitting in a snowy/muddy driveway right now :P

timsrv

12-31-2017, 11:18 PM

Toyota uses metric wire size, so not exactly sure what that was, but their battery cables fall somewhere between #6 GA - #4 GA. For battery cables, I'm all for overkill, so I went with 2/0 wire. Here's a picture of the ground cable I fabricated (sitting next to the original) :wnk:. I don't remember size of eyes, just go with the smallest size that the bolt/stud will fit through.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_2393.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_2394.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/electrical/IMG_2396.jpg

Regarding the Bosch Relay mod, I didn't take a picture of that, but it's a simple mod so I just drew it up (electrically) from memory and attached it in a PDF format here: 6445.

It doesn't matter where you physically put the relay, but I'd try to find a cool & dry location. I ran a separate 12 GA wire directly from the battery to the relay, but you could also grab that power from the big starter wire (then 14 GA would be fine and you'd have everything right there). Good luck and please post pics/give updates with your results. Tim

bikerjosh

04-03-2018, 11:24 AM

Looked for this in DIY and in this section but didn't find a mention which likely means my ability to use the 'search' function is pretty bad. My starter now has to be tapped on with a screw driver to bring it back to life. Wondering if anyone has a source for starter contacts or has done this to cure the problem I am having.

Prior to this, it took numerous tries to get my van started (after sitting for a day or two) which I assumed was due to not getting fuel or drain back (or both). Now that my starter isn't working when I turn the key I hear the fuel pump priming, which lets me get gas up to engine, then go tap on the starter and thing fires up right away. So in addition to my starter motor sounds like I have a fueling issue, though the only item I have read about is a possible faulty cold start injector.

Thanks for reading, any advice appreciated. -Josh

SoORYotas

04-03-2018, 11:32 AM

BJ,

It is filed under articles -> Tim's Tech Tips -> Starter Clicks but won't crank (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?225-Re-Ignition-switch-question). :wave2: I referred to this article before.

Tim is so good with the details.

Cheers, SoORYotas

AD2101

04-03-2018, 11:23 PM

Josh,

I'm hoping to tackle this job once I get my van back on all 4 wheels after I finish my bearing press job from hell finished. I bought this kit (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007FR89FY) from Amazon, the job looks easy enough, if Tim's article (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?225-Re-Ignition-switch-question) and the rebuild videos (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rebuild+toyota+starter+soleno id) on YouTube are any indication. If you go this route, would you mind posting back here with details on the job? If I get it done before you I'll come back and do the same.

AD2101

04-09-2018, 11:53 PM

Ok this job was crazy simple, if you are mechanically savvy enough to remove and replace a starter you are more than capable of replacing the contacts. I'll share a couple of pointers from when I did this job but it's real straight forward and Tim's article hits all the high notes.

First, that starter rebuild kit I bought was basically worthless. The plunger was too long and one of the replacement contacts had a weird crescent moon shape to it. I imagine this contact would have been fine on either side but it didn't seem to fit well and since only one of my contacts was worn I cleaned up the other one, hit the old plunger with a little bit of sandpaper and electronic cleaner to get the shine back and used that. If I were to do it again, I would just buy this bag of contacts (https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Starter-Solenoid-Contacts-Denso-TOYOTA-COROLLA-LAND-CRUISER-TACOMA/162650307763?hash=item25deb6bcb3:g:hlkAAOSw1xhZpNL e&vxp=mtr) and call it a day.

There is a thin wire on one side of the contacts, be real careful not to hit or sever this wire. It's attached to a little plate that goes between the contact and the back of the bolt. This little plate was stuck to the bolt pretty good, I used a small tip screw driver in there and gently pried it apart. After that its remove, clean, and replace, being mindful of the order everything goes back together.

The whole job, including pulling the starter and putting it back in, took a little over an hour, but I took pictures and got a little OCD about cleaning the starter while I had it out. I took it to OReilly's and they must have tested it about 5 times and said it passed every time. I threw it back in my van and she started right up and my code 12 is now gone so totally worth it in my book.

bikerjosh

04-10-2018, 09:36 AM

Thanks, for the update. Just put my van on the lift over the weekend while trying to finish work on Montero for a trip in 9 days. Bout of stomach flu stopped progress on both vehicles. Hopefully finishing the Montero over the next two days after work and will then pull the starter motor on the van.
Josh

Ok this job was crazy simple, if you are mechanically savvy enough to remove and replace a starter you are more than capable of replacing the contacts. I'll share a couple of pointers from when I did this job but it's real straight forward and Tim's article hits all the high notes.

First, that starter rebuild kit I bought was basically worthless. The plunger was too long and one of the replacement contacts had a weird crescent moon shape to it. I imagine this contact would have been fine on either side but it didn't seem to fit well and since only one of my contacts was worn I cleaned up the other one, hit the old plunger with a little bit of sandpaper and electronic cleaner to get the shine back and used that. If I were to do it again, I would just buy this bag of contacts (https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Starter-Solenoid-Contacts-Denso-TOYOTA-COROLLA-LAND-CRUISER-TACOMA/162650307763?hash=item25deb6bcb3:g:hlkAAOSw1xhZpNL e&vxp=mtr) and call it a day.

There is a thin wire on one side of the contacts, be real careful not to hit or sever this wire. It's attached to a little plate that goes between the contact and the back of the bolt. This little plate was stuck to the bolt pretty good, I used a small tip screw driver in there and gently pried it apart. After that its remove, clean, and replace, being mindful of the order everything goes back together.

The whole job, including pulling the starter and putting it back in, took a little over an hour, but I took pictures and got a little OCD about cleaning the starter while I had it out. I took it to OReilly's and they must have tested it about 5 times and said it passed every time. I threw it back in my van and she started right up and my code 12 is now gone so totally worth it in my book.

jdweasel47

04-11-2018, 03:11 PM

I made this repair as well, hardest part was starter removal and reinstall (very greasy)--the starter disassembly and replace was a breeze. The copper "L" shaped connector on the "hot-side"--powered side was worn almost paper thin from use/arching. Cleaned everything, sanded magnets/armature, replaced those copper parts---no more hammer/pray to start. Cranks 1st time/every-time----cranks way faster too.

bikerjosh

07-22-2018, 08:38 PM

Ok, so add me to the list. Have the click, when turning the key. Checked the battery, yep 12.5vlts on the multi meter. Assume I need new starter contacts, order the kit (came w/a plunger as well, so replaced that to). Felt pretty good patting self on back yesterday afternoon. Go to start it today same click. After a string of expletives, I checked the battery, no it’s fine; crawl under the van and tap the starter with the handle of a screw driver. Turn the key and starter motor fires. More expletives, shaking fist toward the heavens, etc. Before we talk about power supply or grounding connections, let me preface this with the idea that I have already replaced ground cables with custom 2.0g wires, run tandem 2.0g wires w/copper terminals to both starter and alternator. Any idea what I have failed to do? thanks for listening

Burntboot

07-23-2018, 10:29 AM

BJ - Have you done anything to the trigger wire circuit?

Sounds like you've eliminated all the other possible causes.
Start with checking trigger voltage when the starter won't turn

I'd be tempted to run a separate wire for the ign switch to the solenoid and try that out for a couple of weeks, if no further troubles present,
make that wire permanent.

Before doing that you may want to inspect the ign switch itself and make sure the contact for the "start position" isn't burned/corroded.
Perhaps even just taking voltage readings from the back side might shed some light

bikerjosh

07-23-2018, 11:47 PM

Seems reasonable enough, but I would have thought it is something with the starter given that I can get it to start by tapping on it w/a hammer?
Is there a tutorial on removing the ignition lock? Looked at it briefly when I was looking for the trigger wire at ignition switch. I could only find two green wires coming from back of ignition lock. Not sure where to find it.
thanks

BJ - Have you done anything to the trigger wire circuit?

Sounds like you've eliminated all the other possible causes.
Start with checking trigger voltage when the starter won't turn

I'd be tempted to run a separate wire for the ign switch to the solenoid and try that out for a couple of weeks, if no further troubles present,
make that wire permanent.

Before doing that you may want to inspect the ign switch itself and make sure the contact for the "start position" isn't burned/corroded.
Perhaps even just taking voltage readings from the back side might shed some light

Burntboot

07-24-2018, 11:44 AM

BJ - you don't need to pull the lock cylinder, the electrical portion mounts onto the end of the lock body.

From post #17 of this thread Ignition switch question. (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?126-Ignition-switch-question)

"To rule this out, make sure your battery is good and fully charged, then rig up a voltmeter to your small solenoid wire (at the starter) and have somebody try to crank. If you see above 10.5 volts and it's not cranking, then the problem is in your starter. If the voltage is below that, then the problem is somewhere in the starter circuit. If the problem is in your starter, pop the solenoid cover off and inspect the contacts before condemning the entire starter. Tim"

That is where I would want to start the investigation, having that answer (trigger wire voltage) will direct where to go next.

If the problem is in the starter, worn brushes or worn bearings are repairable but if the commutator is damaged its time for new.
The manual dedicates 12 pages to the starter and they quote specs for just about every imaginable thing you could want to inspect.

Not that it applies, but when I went down this road I hadn't yet found Tim's plunger contact repair and went with an OEM factory rebuild.
IIRC, I got a full 2 weeks before the click came back.
-only to say that my issue probably had nothing to do with the starter, as every time I thought I had it repaired, it would only be good for a few weeks at best.

pinkgrips236

07-24-2018, 01:05 PM

I'd also try to rule out bad starter unit (while it's still connected to the van) v bad wiring by sending POS voltage directly to the starter.

If it doesn't turn this way, I'd suspect something with the starter unit is no good.

I've done this with jumper cables running from the battery, under the van, and to the contact on the starter.

trestlehed

07-24-2018, 04:14 PM

I copy/pasted this (my experience/post) from an older thread:

I had the same problem back in 2008 when I bought my van. After replacing the ignition, neutral start safety switch, rebuilt starter, and going thru the whole system with a fine toothed comb, my mechanic concluded that there was a small voltage drop somewhere, so he installed a starter bypass switch.

http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/s...starter+bypass

(http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?251-Van-occasionally-won-t-crank-occasionally-won-t-start-occasionally-stalls-Related&highlight=starter+bypass)

bikerjosh

11-07-2018, 01:07 PM

As an update re-hecked the trigger wire from ignition switch and have a 2g wire going directly to the starter from the batt.

I find that if I put it in gear and let off the ebrake so it moves slightly against the gears it will fire up.
I think at this point I just need to get a reman denso at this point.
thanks

Burntboot

11-07-2018, 04:12 PM

BJ - getting the starter to hook-up by loading up the drivetrain makes very little sense, unless it is actually helping to complete the ground circuit
Given that you've replaced everything on the positive side, any chance something has been overlooked on the negative side

Way way back, V12 Jag sedans could develop a stiff accelerator pedal, replacing cables was only a temporary solution.
Turned out the accelerator cables were completing the ground circuit, heating up in the process and partially melting the sheathing and causing the cable to bind.
Beefing up all the engine to chassis straps ended up being the final solution.

bikerjosh

11-07-2018, 05:02 PM

cpginkpt

03-22-2019, 11:53 AM

so I've ready thru this entire post and everyone says the symptoms are a click and no spin - mine is different.

I get a nice click/spin every time I turn the key - but the first 2-3 times it just makes a whirring noise but never seems to engage anything. After the 2-3rd time, it engages and starts right up like normal.

Any ideas what would cause that?

pinkgrips236

03-22-2019, 12:23 PM

Have you checked the starter and flexplate / flywheel for broken teeth?

Maybe it's just not hooking up?

timsrv

03-22-2019, 02:17 PM

Have you checked the starter and flexplate / flywheel for broken teeth?

Maybe it's just not hooking up?

I agree. The ring gears are pretty tough on our vans, but it's conceivable one or more teeth could be damaged/broken. It's much more likely a starter issue (specifically the solenoid not kicking the "starter drive" out all the way or the starter drive itself could be messed up). You will need to pull the starter, then inspect the teeth on the ring gear and the drive gear. Once the starter is off, look up in the hole where it mounts and check the teeth on the ring gear. Use a socket/ratchet to slowly rotate the crank shaft 360° while checking for damage. If that's fine, then either repair or replace the entire starter. If the ring gear is damaged, well, lets just hope it's not (that's a much bigger job). Tim

cpginkpt

03-22-2019, 03:03 PM

ok, great. Will start there.

I had somehow imagined that it might be an electrical thing since the manual says if the car is in gear there is a "safety" switch which will prevent it from engaging (?).

As soon as it spins around a few times it finally catches - which aligns with what you guys are suggesting.

Thanks!

timsrv

03-22-2019, 03:38 PM

The safety switch (if it were bad) would not allow anything to happen. Since the starter is spinning, we know power is making it through the safety switch. Your problem has to do with engaging/meshing of the gears. IMO the most likely cause is a failing starter drive (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Drive-ACDELCO-PRO-D2005/323665286463?fits=Make%3AToyota&epid=79464602&hash=item4b5bf4553f:g:3dAAAOSwH~ta3NQE&frcectupt=true). If you check the pics in that listing you will see the smaller gear on one end. That gear can break teeth and/or the ratchet mechanism inside can get gummed up & cause grinding and/or slippage.

Due to our disposable society most people just replace entire starters. This makes individual parts more expensive, therefore further encouraging replacement of complete assemblies (in this case the entire starter). Tim

cpginkpt

03-22-2019, 06:54 PM

ah, thanks for clarifying and the extra detail Tim!

Sir Goofy

04-14-2019, 09:46 PM

I was having an intermittent start issue and after reading the posts and going through the steps finally found success with a new ignition switch. Or so I thought. After a few months the problem came back. Went back through everything and out of curiosity installed a second ignition switch and the problem seemed solved again. Now I'm having the same problem again. Any clue as to what could be damaging the ignition switch?

originalkwyjibo

04-15-2019, 03:12 PM

Sir goofy,
I would suspect yours may be a situation of the sum of all things. As Tim discusses in post #45, the resistance in the circuit builds over time with age and even small amounts of corrosion. Eventually you aren't getting enough voltage to the starter to adequately energize the solenoid. By changing the ignition switch you may have reduced the resistance by just enough to fix it until the new part started to get a little wear. Also in post#45 Tim explains how to install a Bosch relay kit. These were originally designed for air-cooled VWs to alleviate voltage drop from age and the distance the current had to travel and work well for their intended purpose. I have personallly installed a few of these( including one on a Subaru) with good results and will putting one on one of my vans soon for the same symptoms described in this thread. Might be worth looking into.

nickgorey

07-06-2019, 09:30 AM

Hey all!

I am the relatively new owner of a 1989 Toyota Van LE. I’ve been having intermittent starting issues with the “click.” After a couple tries, it normally starts, but I was left high and dry once a couple weeks ago, only getting it to start after hours of tinkering. The battery was old, so I replaced it, which I thought solved the problem but just recently started having the same issue again. The thing I haven’t seen mentioned here is that when I remove the positive battery terminal connector and re-mount it, the van always starts right up. There is some light dust on that terminal each time I remove it, so I think I will replace that connector today. Could remounting the connector be sparking a bad starter enough to ignition? I’m trying to figure out other causes of the issue in advance as the ol Van is my daily driver.

Burntboot

07-07-2019, 11:30 AM

If corrosion is growing on the positive post in days/weeks as opposed to months/years then you likely have a failed battery post seal.
You may try to get warranty on the battery but will depend on supplier as that fault, especially on a new battery, is usually caused by improper tightening of the battery connector.

Usually happens when people get aggressive tightening the connection and it applies a side load to the terminal enough to cause the seal to breach.
Using a 4in long 10mm wrench and making it "tight" (without supporting the terminal with the other hand) is more than enough to break that seal

The fact that disturbing the battery positive connection solves the issue, would tend to indicate its that connection causing your (current) issue.

gwalzer

07-10-2019, 05:48 PM

VanDown

07-10-2019, 06:05 PM

I have no experience with starter issues, but your comment makes me wonder if you don't know how to remove the passenger side access panel? If not, search the forum - it's easy, and greatly improves engine bay access:dance2:

Jdelgado

07-10-2019, 06:14 PM

Does anyone have any tips for removing the actual starter? I read Tim's whole post on replacing the worn contact and got the part from Toyota - $16!. But now looking at the starter itself, (which looks to be nearly under the passenger seat), it seems really tough to take out.

you can easily access it from underneath. I believe only two bolts keep it in place. Should only take a few minutes to drop! :)

9083

creationj

10-05-2019, 10:21 AM

Hello i have a 1987 toyota van 4wd. we havent really taken out for drives yet. but we start it up all the time. fixing things here and there but lately car took a little bit to start makes noise like it wants to start and eventually starts. but now it doesnt want to seem to start. makes the noise like it wants to start but just doesnt turn over. do you think it may be the starter? thanks for any info. i was trying to search starter in the forum im sure there is somewhere with diagrams and such but couldnt find it. thanks again

originalkwyjibo

10-05-2019, 12:35 PM

Have you checked basics like battery voltage?

creationj

10-05-2019, 03:00 PM

yeah battery is brand new changed it like 3 months ago

originalkwyjibo

10-05-2019, 04:45 PM

But what is the actual voltage as measured at the battery? Also, it's important to clarify your terminology, i.e. "makes noise like it wants to start". When you turn the key does it only make a single click sound and repeatedly cycling the key produces the same single click with each cycle? Or, when turning the key does the starter spin and turnover/crank the engine but it doesn't actually fire/start?

cpginkpt

11-16-2019, 01:51 PM

anyone ever spec out Tim's mega ground wire on Page 3 of this thread?

He mentioned 2/0 gauge wire - but it would be great to get lengths, lug sizes, bolt sizes to replace rusted or missing ones + I think he did shrink wrap at ends etc.

OR

do I just grab the 2 circled items from RockAuto, which will be smaller gauge but save a bit of crimping etc.

I just started getting the click click issue, and my ground (below) certainly would fall in the suspect category so starting there. Looks like someone did a rebuild and bypassed the whole middle bolt to body.

Burntboot

11-17-2019, 09:00 AM

Without already having the proper tools to crimp with, sourcing pre-made cables makes sense.

Most auto parts stores carry pre-made lengths that can be utilized, while they might not be the perfect length, they will ge the job done.
No doubt those RA cables would work fine

Pre-made cables will come in standard lengths (12,18,24"....)

Custom made cables will get you a cleaner install and allow you to spec whatever wire size you want, there's likely an electrical shop near you that would make them up for a small fee. You will need to supply them with lengths, eyelet sizes etc

Something to consider.
I have seen cars that had ground wires rust off like yours, more often than not they would come in with the accelerator cable smoking/melted because it was acting as the ground.
Its worth taking a look at all things that may have been acting as a ground (kickdown, accelerator....) just to make sure nothing else is compromised.

Burntboot

11-17-2019, 09:20 AM

Either way you will need to take some measurements to get the right sized cables as you will need battery to frame and frame to engine.
I always add a 2nd ground off the other side (chassis to drivetrain), likely not required but I like a little redundancy, sometimes.

Given that the positive wire is the same age, might be worth inspecting it while you're in this deep.

originalkwyjibo

11-17-2019, 09:50 AM

Something to consider.
I have seen cars that had ground wires rust off like yours, more often than not they would come in with the accelerator cable smoking/melted because it was acting as the ground.
Its worth taking a look at all things that may have been acting as a ground (kickdown, accelerator....) just to make sure nothing else is compromised.

I had the speedometer cable and instrument cluster act as the battery ground on an '85 Mercedes diesel once. It wasn't pretty.

JDM VANMAN

04-25-2020, 07:19 PM

Click no Start

I was heading out to work and this happened to the TownAce, the issue has gotten worse over time so here’s a couple short videos for reference-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U22T6g8keho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8vJU69BM1w

Time for a new relay and wiring “I ain’t got time for clicks”

https://i.imgur.com/eLijjx7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YeZZZXl.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er-bLwQ7EvM

Just for clarification I dropped off the van and had my MasterTech to complete the work.

JDM

Headhunter38

08-14-2022, 06:48 PM

I just finished repairing the Click-No-Start issue that suddenly appeared on my Van. This thread was immensely helpful in me diagnosing the problem. I thank you all everyone who has contributed to this thread. It turned out to be the starter cable was corroded. There was a portion of the wire insulation that rubbed off and corroded the wire. It was a portion of the wire that ran up and over the transmission so i wasnt able to see it until i removed it. I havent read every single post on this thread so this might have already been said, make sure to check for continuity or voltage at the starter cable without turning the key. I stupidly only checked for voltage while someone was turning the key and falsely thought the starter was getting power. It appears that voltage will pass through the switch wire and solenoid into the starter cable and make it seem like it has power. Since i thought it had power i went on to diagnose the ignition switch and clutch pedal switch which turned out to be a waste of time. Now that its fixed i plan to replace all the grounds and also the alternator cable since i noticed some frayed insulation on the grounds.

{LG}

11-29-2022, 02:23 PM

Same, this has been a most helfpful thread. Many thanks to all who have contributed.

What fixed this for me in the end was ridiculously simple- I cleaned the connections and reconnected the ignition switch. Haven't had click no start since.:dance2:

danielfrisbee

12-28-2022, 02:56 PM

hello I've been reading through these and your knowledge is amazing. Unfortunately I can't find anything that seems to relate to my ignition problem.. so apologies but I'll ask here before I guess opening a new thread.

I have a 1994 toyota estima lucida, it's basically a previa but a bit thinner and mine is a diesel. I got sent here from another toyota site where nobody could figure out my issue.

Somebody tried to steal the car, broke the steering lock frame and snapped the ignition switch from the back of the barrel, and then cut all the wires to try and hot wire it, they failed it seems since the car is still there, but made a big mess and in frustration snapped off the indicator lever and wiper lever and then the wipers off the front when they left.

I have got a replacement ignition switch which was taken from another scrapped car that still started, and wired it in correctly. I glued the pin on the back of the key barrel back on which now turns the ignition switch with the key. I have checked all fuses in fuse box and engine bay.

On turning the key nothing happens at all, a vague quite click seems to happen within the dash somewhere but that's it. When I have the wires loose in hot-wire-mode I can light up the green P and I can fire the starter motor but haven't yet found a way to light up the ignition on phase with the other warning lights.

So far as I can tell everything is back where it was before the theft, just with extra superglue.

My one theory is that the ignition switch might have an extra ground connection through the pin at the back of the barrel which the glue has ungrounded.. but the pin hole on the ignition switch is very plastic so that seems unlikely.

Other idea is that somehow a wire was pulled so hard in the theft attempt it has come off at the other end somewhere but looking closely and pulling a bit everything seems solid.

And yet.. something somewhere seems to be broken.

Any guesses what it could be! I've been trying to fix it for two weeks and missed my family christmas in the process as couldn't travel, completely stuck and local mechanics do not want to help.

Any advice much appreciated.!

timsrv

12-28-2022, 09:27 PM

Hi and welcome to the forum! I'm sorry to say I've had vehicles I cared about stolen and vandalized too, so I know the mental aspect of what you must be feeling. There are few things I hate more than thieves and vandals. I'm glad to hear he wasn't successful in getting it started. Hopefully he gets caught soon.....even better if it's by somebody that hurts him bad.

As for advice, the 1st thing I should say is I can only offer general advice as your van is quite different than anything sold here in the American market. Toyota never sold diesel Previa's here, and I've never seen one, so I'm not sure where the similarities end or begin. That being said it stands to reason that the problem must be something he did. Since he was so destructive, it will be hard to rule anything out.

You didn't say if it was an automatic or a manual transmission. If it's an automatic, my 1st thought would be to check the neutral safety switch and/or the linkage that attaches the shifter to the transmission. If he bent that linkage the safety switch may not be in the correct position (to allow the starter to run). If it's a manual transmission, then you should check the clutch safety switch and the wires to and from it. Other than that there's not much I can offer, other than suggesting you get a Factory service manual for your specific vehicle so you can use the electrical diagrams to help you troubleshoot the circuit. Good luck! Tim

MarkH

12-29-2022, 08:56 AM

Check the fuses. If someone was trying to touch random wires together, some of them might be blown.

danielfrisbee

12-29-2022, 10:21 AM

thanks guys. Just got it working by sheer luck I think, refitted ignition switch and tried hot wiring it with the ignition switch fitted, turns out of I join a white wire and a wire one with a red stripe together, then everything behaves normally and I can even use the key. Maybe those wires were joined before the theives ripped it all up so I didn't know to fix that, or maybe I just magically worked around another problem. I didn't try driving it as I think the theives live locally so need to set up some security features. The central locking is flicking on and off, I guess that could be a wire in the passenger door earthing.
Anyway been great to discover this site. Ps yes it's an diesel automatic 2.2 turbo. The estimas and previas are often identical on the wider body ones and people swap bits and work manuals.

thevanburenbys

05-06-2024, 12:48 PM

you can easily access it from underneath. I believe only two bolts keep it in place. Should only take a few minutes to drop! :)

9083

I’m looking for the second bolt to remove the starter. The first was a 14mm that attached through the transmission housing. I can’t for the life of me find that second bolt.