Help please no spark

[lokismind]

I need ideas please people. My 95 Spacia won't start.
YR22 4Y

Has been running fine with no issues. Left the headlights on last night for over an hour, van started fine without hiccups, then turned it off after a minute.
When I went to start it 45 minutes later nothing. Cranks but just won't ignite. Pulled a lead and it seems I have no spark. The only other thing I noticed is a knocking noise from the throttle area when pushing the accelerator down.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Scott

[timsrv]

They quit exporting the vans to the states back in 89, so not sure how similar a 95 Spacia is to our vans. Is it fuel injected or carbureted? If it's got the coil inside the distributor, that's a common failed part. Pop the distributor cap and check the coil for cracks, bulges, or burn marks. You should also check it for resistance. Assuming it's the same as ours, the primary coil resistance (between the + and - terminals) should measure at 1.2 - 1.5 ohms (however it's not unusual to see a good coil measure outside of these specs as I've seen good ones measure down below .5 ohms). The important thing here is it measures on the low end. The secondary resistance (between the + and high-tension terminals) should measure between 7.7 - 10.4 k ohms.

If you don't already have a service manual for your specific model I would recommend you get one. Tim

[lokismind]

Thanks for the response Tim,

They never made a manual specifically for the Spacia which is a pain in the butt.

Motor wise they are very similar to the early models just a few different wiring connections more than anything. Fuel injected and yes the coil in the distributor so looks like I'll be checking that when I tow it home tomorrow.

Will let you know how I go or if I need other suggestions.

Scott

[lokismind]

Tim,

I'm getting 1.7 reading on the primary coil and 8.8 on the secondary coil when testing. Would the small difference of .2 higher be the issue?

Also i noticed the rotor arm and terminal posts in the cap were burnt and pitted. Only after 11 months.

Await your help.

Scott

[timsrv]

Check codes (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/content.php?196-Engine-Service-Connector) and report back. Of course I have no idea what codes were used in 95. I'm guessing the same as 88-89 US vans??? Your coil could still be bad, but based on resistance I would assume it's good. If you truly don't have spark the ECU should be displaying a code. If that's the case then perhaps the igniter is bad. If there's no code then it may be time to move on to the fuel system. Do you have access to a parts vehicle?

PS: With your key in the "run" position, is your check engine light illuminated?

[MonTex]

I had a similar experience with my '89 4WD van. My van was blowing the "Gauge" 7.5 Amp fuse in the fuse block. It would crank and crank, but no spark. It never set any trouble code!

Once the "Gauge" fuse was replaced, it would crank and immediately start. I went through several of the "Gauge" fuses, then the issue mysteriously went away, with no subsequent problem! However, I carry several of these fuses (and all of the other ones) with me - just in case I should ever need to replace them again. Good luck!

[lokismind]

Thanks Montex, fuses was one of the first things I checked and sadly it wasn't that simple a fix. Will just have to keep eliminating things me thinks. Off to check the codes

[lokismind]

Update:

I have spark, don't ask me how because I don't know and i'm not complaining.

No error codes are present and i have fuel, well up to the injectors anyways.

So now I am really stumped.

Help please.

Scott

[timsrv]

Are you saying that it's running again?

[lokismind]

whoops, no it's still not starting hence why i'm stumped.

[timsrv]

If you got spark & fuel, then the only thing that will prevent running is timing. Does the cranking sound normal when you run the starter? Any back-fires or pops through the intake?

[lokismind]

Thanks Tim,

Will look into the timing in the morning. Would that make it not start suddenly with out any warning? ie the van has been running fine until it wouldn't start. Also any idea on the knocking coming from the throttle body while the accelerator is depressed?

Scott

[timsrv]

It would if the timing chain skipped a few teeth or if the distributor gear sheer pin broke. If the timing chain skipped compression would be affected & it would sound "unusual" while cranking. How many miles/kilometers are on the van? Not sure about the "knocking". How loud is it? Make sure the throttle body hose is secure and clamped. Tim

[foreverly]

Check the plugs to make sure they aren't fouled or wet with gas. I once had a fuel pressure regulator blow on me that resulted in an extremely rich mixture = no start. Even after I changed the regulator I still needed to change the plugs to get it to start.

Good luck.

[timsrv]

That's a good point. It would also be a good idea to pull a plug to make sure gas is making it into the cylinders. Just because gas is in the fuel rail doesn't mean the injectors are firing. If gas is getting into the cylinders the plugs should be a bit wet and smell like gas. Another thing you might try is spraying a shot of ether into the throttle body then see if it fires (make sure you put the air intake hose back on before attempting to start). Please answer the following:

1. How many miles/kilometers are on the van?
2. When you said you had spark, how did you verify that?
3. How did you verify fuel pressure?
4. With the key in the "run" position, is the "Check Engine Light" on your dash illuminated?
5. When you checked codes did you get the "all clear" code?.........or did the CEL not blink at all?
6. Does the cranking sound normal (even pulses)?
7. When cranking are there any pops or back fires through the intake or out the exhaust?
8. Do you have easy access to a parts vehicle?

[lokismind]

So not much to update with as rain h stopped me being able to do anything.

After reading the responses I'm thinking fuel problem. The plugs are dry upon removal. Going to tinker with it again in the morning (about 17hours) as I'm heading to work now

1. How many miles/kilometers are on the van?
365909 km's (Fully reco head installed twelve months ago and had no issues with it till now)

2. When you said you had spark, how did you verify that?
Pulled a plug and saw the spark on crank

3. How did you verify fuel pressure?
cracked open the banjo on the fuel rail

4. With the key in the "run" position, is the "Check Engine Light" on your dash illuminated?
Yes and i don't get any faults, assuming i'm jumping the correct pins (see pic)
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/lokismind/14567328-9a1a-4ebb-b541-0136df4a2ad8_zpsa3492528.jpg (http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/lokismind/14567328-9a1a-4ebb-b541-0136df4a2ad8_zpsa3492528.jpg)
jumping TE1 and E1

5. When you checked codes did you get the "all clear" code?.........or did the CEL not blink at all?
See above

6. Does the cranking sound normal (even pulses)?
sounds as normal as it ever has. Sounds like it starting every other time just won't fire

7. When cranking are there any pops or back fires through the intake or out the exhaust?
Nope

8. Do you have easy access to a parts vehicle?
Sadly these models are very rare so no. I do have though a spare injector rail with injectors and a spare throttle body.

[timsrv]

Oh, you have a Previa type diagnostic box........Vanwagons never had anything fancy like that. Try installing a jumper (metal paper clip will work good) between the terminals B+ and FP. After the jumper is in place, turn the key to the "run" position, and you should hear the sound of fuel traveling through the system. If you put your ear to the tank you should also be able to hear the pump running. If you hear the pump running and fuel flowing, try to start it. If it starts then pull the jumper and see if it continues to run.

If you get no pump sound & no sounds of moving fuel, then you have a fuel issue. Anyhow, check that out and report back. Tim

[lokismind]

tim, did your test, didn't hear the fuel but, i have fuel everywhere it seems and you can smell it when trying to start the car.

:wall:

what is really throwing me is the fact it just wouldn't start after running fine 45 minutes earlier. grrrrrrrrrrr

so i await more thoughts on my issue.

just as a side thought, if i have to pull the throttle body off to get to the injectors, i may as well put the spare ones in I have, so my question on that is should i be cleaning them before i do this and what should i be doing to them.

scott

[timsrv]

If you did the test as I described and there was no fuel flowing then you have a problem with the fuel system. The most likely culprit is the fuel pump or maybe a circuit opening relay. The next test is to see if the fuel pump is getting any power while doing that test. If it's got power but no fuel is flowing (will be audible), then you have a bad fuel pump. Tim

[lokismind]

Tim everyone in this house is now calling you a hero.

Fuel pump replaced and it runs.

New question, now that it's running i'm going to double check the timing while the engine cover is off, so: Do I need to jump TE1 and E1 to do the timing as the manual says or do i just set it straight to 20 BTDC?

Scott

[timsrv]

That's great to hear.......glad you got it all figured out :). Yes, TE1 & E1 should be jumped to disable the electronic advance. Then timing should be set to whatever the book tells you. For our US vans that number is 12 deg but not sure what it would be for yours. After timing is set the jumper should be pulled and and the timing should be checked again to verify the electronic advance is working (for US vans we expect to see about 20 deg). If you don't get the change with the jumper removed then you need to investigate the electronic advance system. Tim

[lokismind]

Okay so got it all back together and took it for a drive and it sound like a Volkswagen, (don't know if it rives like it cause I've never driven one)

So, first question,

The petrol pump the got went in is slightly bigger than the one that came out, was the only thing I could get on a Saturday afternoon without spending $130 on a brand new one. Side by side the old one is 3/4 the height of new one and about the same in diameter.
Could this be the cause of the crap running?

Timing was set correctly as per Tim's suggestions and in the drive way at the time it seemed to run nicely.

Idling at about 800rpm and that is the lowest I could get it with the adjustment screw.

So, if the pump could be the cause (kind of hoping cause it's a fairly easy fix) i say brilliant, if not where should I be starting? I re adjusted the timing but it doesn't matter where i set it it still had that roughness.

Scott

[timsrv]

The pump should be capable of bringing pressure up to ~50psi & while the van's running it's supposed to pump continually at max output. The regulator in the fuel rail holds pressure at ~40psi (constant) and allows the excess fuel to flow back to the tank via a return line. Assuming you have the correct output pump and were able to install it without any air leaks between it & the input sock / it & the output side fuel line there should be no problems. Still, since it ran good right up to the time the old pump failed, I would want to verify fuel pressure. Here's a thread that will help you: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?589-Testing-fuel-system-replacing-fuel-pressure-regulator

PS: With your van, jumping the B+ to FP in your diagnostic box is the same thing as jumping the Fuel Pump Test connector in that thread. Also, there are other ways to hook up a pressure gauge. I just used that method as I have lots of parts vehicles & spare parts laying around.

[lokismind]

Thanks Tim, I'll have to look at how I'm going to do this.

The pump I got hold off was out of an '89 torago (previa).

Will let you know what happens

[lokismind]

Tim, some questions.

I haven't done anything with the van yet as haven't had the time so tackling this on the weekend. I figured while I'm playing mechanic I might clean up the spare throttle body and injectors I have and swap them over. So the questions are should I be soaking the injectors in any cleaner or such and should I strip the throttle body completely. I suppose the real questions is what would you be doing?

Scott

[timsrv]

Personally I wouldn't mess with the injectors unless I had a reason to believe they were messed up. If that were the case I'd take the spare ones to a shop that offers cleaning and testing. There's more on this HERE (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?522-Other-parts-to-replace-while-replacing-Head-Gasket) (read the end of post #3 & all of post #15).

Cleaning/swapping the throttle body could be worth while. I usually disassemble them and soak the metal parts in Chem-Dip (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Berryman-Chem-Dip-carburetor-and-parts-cleaner/_/N-25uv?itemIdentifier=139313_0_0_) for a couple of days. After a good soaking I rinse off in a mild solvent (mineral spirits paint thinner works good too) then blow out all the ports with compressed air. During reassembly I put a drop of lube on the throttle shaft bores before installing the shaft. I've been meaning to make a thread on this subject but haven't gotten around to it yet. Tonight when I have more time I'll make a new thread on "throttle bodies" and post a link here. If you're messing around with the throttle body you will also want to test & adjust your TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). HERE'S (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?447-Throttle-Position-Sensor-TPS-Canada) a thread on setting one up (see post #6). Tim

[lokismind]

Thanks Tim, I'm not going to worry about the injectors this time. cant justify the $120 to get them cleaned.

my only question now is what gasket thickness should I use for the throttle body gasket and the intake to plenum chamber gasket?

Scott

[timsrv]

When you say plenum chamber gasket I assume you mean surge tank to intake manifold gasket. Why do you need that gasket? Are you going to split the intake manifold? I'm not crazy about making gaskets when the factory ones are readily available. The surge tank gasket for the 4y is Toyota part #17176-73012 & sells for ~$10 USD. The throttle body gasket is Toyota part #22271-73011 & sells for ~$5 USD.

As promised I put together a new thread on cleaning/adjusting the throttle body. Here's a link: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?1242-The-Throttle-Body-Thread

[lokismind]

It's alive.

So wasn't able to actually do the pressure test due to lack of tester but, I decided to swap the regulator anyway due to the fact I had a spare one. Crawled under the van to see what I needed to do and found the vacuum line off the regulator. Had my darling daughter put it back on for me. She has much smaller hands.

Strangely that didn't make a difference and the van was still running rough.

Whilst thinking about this I moved the wires which knocked the wires going into #1 injector and it ran perfect. Turns out dodgy wire on the connector.

Van runs better than ever.

Tim thank you for all your help.

scott

[timsrv]

:dance1: