Excessive Oil Consumption — Rebuild or Rering engine?

[djshimon]

I'm trying to decide whether to rebuild or re-ring this engine-
It is a Used engine with lots of power-I overheated it last summer for a few minutes then poured water in it while it was steaming:doh:-probably a bad Idea. Supposedly it has around 130,000 mileage-which I agree because the exhaust manifold is still intact and they crack around 150K I've heard. I never checked the compression after I over-heated it but it drove strong, besides loosing coolant out the overflow.
Took the head to the machinist and he said it had a blown Headgasket(on the #4 cylinder), was cracked beyond repair and that my oil consumption(going through a quart at LEAST every thousand miles) was probably a stuck ring in the #4 cylinder-what Tim said from looking at my pictures. I brought him another head that needed to be rebuilt completely.
The machinist said I should just re-ring the engine and put it back together and call it good.
I asked if I should bring him the block to check if it's warped or cracked and check if it's within spec and he said it's fine, just re-ring it, they don't warp easily.
This guy works on high horsepower Supra engines and he seems to know his Toyota's and has worked on the 4y before.
I'm inclined to do what he says-mainly because I don't have a bunch of micrometers and calipers and have never rebuilt an engine-even though Timsrv's blog makes it look so easy-although I know otherwise.

Ill probably just re-ring it, and change the main and rod bearings and check the bores and deck.
From what I've read on internet:LOL2: forums of all different cars, If you're going to re-ring an engine, you may as well have it rebuilt, bore cylinders, new everything, etc.

Anyone have any insights?
thanks,
aaron.

[timsrv]

These Toyota blocks are tough. I've seen original cross hatching still visible on cylinders with over 250k miles them. Unless something unusual happens these blocks typically don't need to be bored. The cranks & rods also fall into this "last forever" category. The parts that typically need replacing are timing sets, water pumps, valve guides, gaskets & seals. If the engine hasn't been overheated and ignition timing hasn't been advanced too much pistons can also last a long, long time. Overheating and pinging can damage pistons so if either of these has occurred they'd need to be checked over very carefully before re-ringing. Other parts like camshafts, valves, & lifters can wear or fail anytime after 100k miles but can also last well beyond 500k miles. Oil pumps can last forever but considering their importance I always replace regardless.

In my mind, the question of rebuild vs overhaul (re-ring) depends on pistons. The EM section of the service manual gives specs & detailed instructions on how to measure pistons. If the cylinder bores look good and the pistons measure within limits then an overhaul is worth consideration. If the pistons need to be replaced theoretically you could replace with new standard size pistons. The reason nobody does this is bores are cut to match the pistons. If the bore starts out being too big then there's nothing you can do. If you're spending the money on pistons then go with oversize (then there's plenty of material available to achieve a perfect fit). FWIW, the 4y pistons are available in standard & .50mm (about .020") oversize.

Of course this all depends on how much money you have and how long you need it to last. I've overhauled engines that were worn well beyond specs & had pretty good results. Performance can only increase regardless of what you do. Back when I was younger my time wasn't as valuable & I was always broke (so overhauls often made sense). At this point in my life time is more valuable so if it's worth an overhaul then it's worth a rebuild. It all boils down to a personal choice. How long do you want to keep it and how much is your time worth? If you do your own labor a bare-bones overhaul can be done for as little as $500. With machine work & parts a complete rebuild can easily exceed $1,500. Based on my experience I wouldn't trust a rebuilt engine from one of those "rebuild factories". Quality parts and quality labor cost money & IMO there's no way they can do a quality job using quality parts for any less than $3k (and that doesn't include installation). Good luck & please post pics/details regardless of what you decide. Tim

[djshimon]

Thanks Tim for your knowledge on this one where you say, "In my mind, the question of rebuild vs overhaul (re-ring) depends on pistons." I was stuck in the middle but I now think I'll check the pistons thoroughly and maybe just re-ring them if they are within the limits. I don't have a ton of time or money on my hands right now but I would like this engine to last another 100,000 miles.
I guess if the pistons are good then the bores should be good too?
And what about the main and rod bearings? probably should check them too huh?
I'll post back once I've put some more labor in.

[timsrv]

Bores aren't automatically good. They are more likely to survive abuse than the pistons, but they can become scored and worn just like anything else. You should still see evidence of the hatch marks from the original machining. If there are places where this is missing, then this is an indication of wear. Most bore wear typically occurs near the top & on the thrust surfaces. Scoring is the presence of vertical scratches. Scoring is usually caused by stuck or broken rings. Depth & width of such scratches will determine if the original bores are salvageable. In order to break-in your new rings you will want to purchase a finishing hone. These sell for $20-$50 and come in specific diameters and grits. Get the grit recommended by the piston ring manufacturer for the type of rings you purchase. Finishing hones come in ranges (like 3.5" -4") so get the one that falls in the correct range (FYI the bore diameter on a std 4y is 3 9/16" or 91mm). I'd say get a ridge reamer too, but if there's a ridge there big enough to require reaming, then overhauling the engine probably isn't the greatest idea.

You will want to get familiar with the EM section of the service manual and info in my blogs might be useful. Bearings are probably okay, but it's just a good rule of thumb to replace them. They are cheap and you'll be removing them anyhow when you take things apart, so just replace. The cam bearings are pressed in place so just leave those & re-use. As long as the block is not being hot-tanked they will easily make it another 100k miles (most likely more). If you hot tank the block then the cam bearings and the soft plugs will need to be replaced. Tim

[djshimon]

960 Can you see the scoring? There is visible scoring up and down on the 4 cylinder-remember when you thought it looked like a stuck ring from the oil consumption and oily head Tim? It's not very noticeable when I run my fingernail across it. Will a hone take this out or is this in need of a bore? Also, it started rusting a bit at the top from sitting in the garage-how bad is this? -I just oiled it to stop it. The small lines in the rust going horizontal are from my fingernail.

[timsrv]

Boring & replacing pistons is always the best, but your budget will determine if that's possible. When I was younger & always broke my attitude was "anything I do makes it better than it was before, and due to money (or lack there-of) rebuilding is out of the question"..........so I would hone & re-ring. All & all I had "better than expected" results so I guess it was the right thing. The rust will clean-up with a finishing hone. If it's hard to feel the scoring with your fingernail then it will likely clean-up too. When I run finishing hones I run at low RPMs (like around 300 - 500) and vigorously move it up and down the full length of the cylinder. You want the hone scratches to be at ~45 deg angles (90 deg to each other). I would drill a small hole in the cap of an ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) container and hold/squirt ATF into the cylinder with one hand and run the drill/hone with the other. Don't overdo it. Your goal is to rough it up and break the glaze............nothing more. If in doubt, stop & inspect. When you can't see any of the original "shininess" on the cylinder walls then you are done.

Honing will leave grit behind so be sure to clean it good before re-assembling. If you have the block out, use a pressure washer then oil immediately after to prevent rusting. Tim

[djshimon]

Thanks Tim. I'll let you know how it works out.

[djshimon]

Well I finally got the pistons out and the fourth piston(transmission side) was marked up pretty good on two spots. This is the piston that the Head rebuilder guessed had a stuck ring due to the condition of the head. So I'm definitely taking the block in to be checked by the Machinist and most probably bored out to put in oversize pistons. Here's a picture of the piston marks on one side. The opposite side has the same marks-and the cylinder has matching marks although they don't seem too deep.
1143

[timsrv]

Ouch. If you can afford it, I'd recommend boring the engine and replacing all the pistons.

[djshimon]

So I'm awaiting on an Overhaul Gasket Set from Tonkin Toyota. My engine came out of a 1989 van but my van is a 1987. According to the parts department the gasket set is different for 1986 to half of 1987, Then different again for 1989. There are 3 different overhaul gasket sets for the 4y. I had him order me the 1989. What would be the difference in gaskets? I understand the 1988 and 1989 have different injectors, is that the difference?

[timsrv]

As far as gaskets go, I can't think of any differences from 86-89. There's always product improvements, but that should effect all years equally. Like you said, it might be something very small like injector basket o-rings. Silly to have a completely different part numbers for something like that though. Most manufacturers will simply include all possibilities (at least on the small inexpensive items). Tim

[djshimon]

Thanks for the quick reply. Don Johnson(that's his name!) said I'm getting the last one in the U.S.! -at least through a Toyota dealership, and for the 1989 4y. I'm sure the private Toyota warehouses have them still but this is getting a little scary.

[djshimon]

First off, Happy Holidays TVT!
Now for the business end:
I now have my rebuilt engine sitting in the garage. I had the engine shop bore it with oversize pistons. They sent my crank out and it was replaced with another one from who knows where? They did something to the cam lobes, and it got new lifters(the farthest lifter was stuck and took some work to get out. I had them put on the head and oil pan too.
I have to put on the rest. A few questions:
1. Should I use FIPG and paper gasket for the coolant pipe that goes behind the intake manifold?
2. And for the oil filter holder?
- Seems like I should because if the paper gasket leaks it'll be hard to get in there to tighten those nuts/bolts.

3. And the dipstick tube(or does the dipstick tube have an o-ring?).
I was going to use FIPG with the paper gasket with the water pump too-It's how I did it last time(but with rtv) and it didn't leak.

Ok. Here's some pictures.:
123512361237

I'm so excited it's getting close. I miss my van so much. All that room! Up high in the air!

[timsrv]

Gaskets alone are supposed to seal but I personally like a little extra insurance. I like to put a very thin layer of FIPG on each side of these gaskets. And when I say thin, I mean just enough to wet them. I want to see a very small amount of FIPG being displaced when the part is torqued down. Just remember you'll get about the same amount of excess oozing on the inside of the engine too, so don't overdo it. If you get big gobs on the inside they can fall off and end up in bad spots.

Some dipsticks have o-rings & some don't. I can't remember now if ours do. Look for a groove on the tube where it slides into the block. If it has a groove, then use an o-ring, if it doesn't, then maybe use a small amount of FIPG there too. There is not going to be any oil pressure in this area, just splashes and a misty vapor, so it's not an area to be too concerned about. You're on the home stretch now! If you hustle you can get it done in a day, but I'm assuming there'll be lots of other little details that take your time/attention (almost always the case with 25 year old vehicles), so give it 3 or 4 more days of attention & you'll be cruising again! Tim

[XxCisnerosxX]

My mechanic told me the reason he wanted me to switch to 20-50 oil was due to the fact that it's burning it up rather quickly. I asked why not just fix the problem of the burning up too much oil and he said that the rings on the pistons needed to be replaced. And said that on some 2001 Saturn models there was a liquid to leave on the rings overnight so that there would be no hassle removing said rings.

is there such liquid? Will replacing the piston rings help with not burning oil so much? I just had the oil pump replaced about 2 weeks ago and the van is much more noticeably quiet. Any help appreciated!

[Burntboot]

Sometimes a thicker oil will help reduce oil consumption.
It can also starve bearings of lubrication.
It's better to burn oil than trash the engine internals.

A better course of action would be to do a crankcase flush with something like "Seafoam".
If the burning condition still persists then move onto something like "restore".
If neither of those methods work, start looking for a replacement engine.

BB

[ninz30]

I think your valve stem seals are bad... I could see how worn piston rings would cause oil consumption, but worn stem seals would also and are far more common issue on these vans.

[joegri]

i,m with burntboot with this situation. however i,d go just a lil further. find a 4ye motor bolt it to an engine stand and build a top notch new rebuilt motor. but only do this if yer gonna keep it and drive it for another 5/10 or more years! seems like you cant just do some work to the top of the motor and a lil to the bottom of the motor ya gotta go all in and do the whole thing. jus my 2 cents

[ninz30]

i,m with burntboot with this situation. however i,d go just a lil further. find a 4ye motor bolt it to an engine stand and build a top notch new rebuilt motor. but only do this if yer gonna keep it and drive it for another 5/10 or more years! seems like you cant just do some work to the top of the motor and a lil to the bottom of the motor ya gotta go all in and do the whole thing. jus my 2 cents

Your .02 cents will cost this guy over 2k.... What's "burntboot" ???

[timsrv]

Sorry about being late to the party. Business is booming and my son & I have been working double shifts all week (haven't had any extra time for the forum). Here's a thread where I replaced rings and bearings in one of mine: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2041-Blew-the-rear-main-oil-seal!-Engine-Overhaul. Yes it's a big job, but if you plan on keeping the van long term it can be rewarding.

Out of curiosity, just how much oil is yours consuming? If it's less than a quart every 1,000 miles then I wouldn't worry about it (keep running 10w40 & add oil as required). As a general rule they say to replace rings when you get down to a quart every 500 miles. On mine I let it go until it needed a quart every 75 miles :LOL2: (and no, it didn't leak). I love that van now. Especially now that I don't need to add oil all the time. I run 10w40 and don't need to add ANY oil between changes (I change oil every 5k miles).

On the 4y I think oil rings are more likely to cause excessive oil consumption than valve seals/guides. Usually the rings don't actually go bad, they just get stuck in the piston grooves (and that's what creates the problem). When the engine is running oil is spraying and flying everywhere inside the engine. The spraying/flying oil covers the cylinder bores when the pistons are at the top of their strokes. The oil rings work like little round squeegees to scrape this oil off the bores and drag it back into the sump (where it belongs). When the rings get stuck they don't push against the bores anymore and you end up with oil in combustion areas (where it gets burned with the fuel). In theory you could disassemble the engine, free up the rings, reassemble and have good oil control again. But considering the work involved it makes more sense to just put new rings on. If there was a way to un-stick oil rings without disassembling the engine, that would be awesome. I'm not sure how much faith I'd have in "ring job in a can", but I guess it could be worth a shot. Burntboot, have you actually had luck with these products? What if you took out the spark plugs and squirted a couple teaspoons of Seafoam into each cylinder, then let it sit for a couple days?


Ninz has a point about the importance of knowing what's causing the problem. pulling the valve cover and replacing valve seals might be worth a shot, but if the guides are good the condition of valve seals isn't such a big deal. If the guides are shot, replacing seals would only be a temp fix. When it comes to knowing actual cause, disassembling the engine and checking is the only way to know for sure, but as a rule of thumb, valve guides/seals will typically only blow blue smoke out the exhaust for a few seconds after initial start (after engine has been shut-off for 1/2 hr or so). Bad (stuck) rings will usually make it smoke all the time. Tim

[Burntboot]

I have always been skeptical of mechanic-in-a-can, but I have found certain products to have merit.

Forte makes a commercial product that is incredible but it's hard to find and they don't sell retail.
In engines that suffer from stuck oil rings, I have seen it work wonders.
Bought a Gen3 fwd Tercel many years ago with only 100K on it but would blow a blue stream all the time.
It would burn 1L in 500km and the oil was black even right after a change.
Did 2 flushes back to back and the consumption dropped off to 1L/5000km and the oil stayed clean.
I did end up re-ringing it eventually, at 270K.

Seafoam is a very different product but effective in its own right, and if used according to directions, I have seen it do amazing things too.
Far less caustic and much more forgiving and available everywhere.
(I use it in everything I own, gas and diesel, run it with the fuel mostly and it keeps everything whistle clean)

Restore is an avenue of last resort but still has its place in the world.
We had one that nothing would help, failed emission and was slated for the scrap yard.
In a last gasp attempt to save it, we tossed in a $15 can and fired it up.
Stopped smoking within 5 mins and passed an E-test 1 week later.
I didn't think it possible but couldn't argue what the results.
1 year later, that car is still running without issue.

YMMV

[ninz30]

from what I know bad piston rings will will burn oil as long as the vehicle is on, so it will be constantly blowing blue smoke. Bad valve stem seals will burn oil on start up and at momentary idle stops, in which case the puff of blue smoke will only be visible. The OP didn't mention this detail, so we're just assuming at this point.

The OP should have a simple dry and wet compression test to rule out his piston rings. I'm not saying your wrong Tim, but I've noticed most people on this forum aren't mechanics. And in most cases for a non mechanic; an engine rebuild costs more than a new van.

a leak down test will also help him pinpoint the problem.

[timsrv]

I wasn't aware wet & dry compression tests could be used to determine oil consumption issues (I thought that was for determining where compression was being lost). I also wasn't aware leak down tests could be useful here. Tim

[XxCisnerosxX]

from what I know bad piston rings will will burn oil as long as the vehicle is on, so it will be constantly blowing blue smoke. Bad valve stem seals will burn oil on start up and at momentary idle stops, in which case the puff of blue smoke will only be visible. The OP didn't mention this detail, so we're just assuming at this point.

The OP should have a simple dry and wet compression test to rule out his piston rings. I'm not saying your wrong Tim, but I've noticed most people on this forum aren't mechanics. And in most cases for a non mechanic; an engine rebuild costs more than a new van.

a leak down test will also help him pinpoint the problem.


As as far as oil consumption goes, I remember the oil turning black within even a month of an oil change (~450miles/month) and consumption around a quart lost in those 450 miles . I recently had the oil pump replaced about a month ago and surprisingly I went to check my fluids about 3 days ago and the oil was still past the full line on the dipstick! And much cleaner than I would've ever anticipated! So I think the mechanic was probably assuming that the oil pump wasn't going to help with how much oil was burned. Either case I have no idea how to do a wet/dry test or any of that hahaha
and as far as the blue smoke I have never noticed this detail since I'm always the one sitting in the van while it's on to have ever even noticed if smoke comes out and if it is blue anyways

[timsrv]

As as far as oil consumption goes, I remember the oil turning black within even a month of an oil change (~450miles/month) and consumption around a quart lost in those 450 miles . I recently had the oil pump replaced about a month ago and surprisingly I went to check my fluids about 3 days ago and the oil was still past the full line on the dipstick! And much cleaner than I would've ever anticipated! So I think the mechanic was probably assuming that the oil pump wasn't going to help with how much oil was burned. Either case I have no idea how to do a wet/dry test or any of that hahaha
and as far as the blue smoke I have never noticed this detail since I'm always the one sitting in the van while it's on to have ever even noticed if smoke comes out and if it is blue anyways

Perhaps much of the lost oil was a leaky oil pan that was fixed when he replaced the oil pump?

[XxCisnerosxX]

Perhaps much of the lost oil was a leaky oil pan that was fixed when he replaced the oil pump?

Thats what I'm thinking as well? Except since October 1st, I haven't even put 200 miles driving so it's hard to say if oil consumption is ok at this point?

[ninz30]

Perhaps much of the lost of oil was a leaky oil pan that was fixed when he replaced the oil pump?
+1 ^

If the OP performed a dry test and then a wet test and saw SIGNIFICANT improvement. I believe it would be reasonable to assume the piston rings are not forming a proper seal. Piston rings being the most likely to wear, before cylinder walls and pistons themselves. This just makes sense to me, so please if you don't agree or have a different view, do share.

Based on what Cisneros just posted I'm more confused, and does sound like he was leaking not burning.

[timsrv]

If the OP performed a dry test and then a wet test and saw SIGNIFICANT improvement. I believe it would be reasonable to assume the piston rings are not forming a proper seal. Piston rings being the most likely to wear, before cylinder walls and pistons themselves. This just makes sense to me, so please if you don't agree or have a different view, do share..............

Compression rings (rings 1 & 2) are there to complete the seal between the combustion area and the bottom end. The oil ring assembly (2 thin rings being pushed out with an expander) is there to keep the oil from leaking into the combustion areas. If the oil ring gets stuck it doesn't necessarily affect compression, but it will affect oil consumption. If the compression rings stick and/or fail in other ways, you will lose compression, but not necessarily burn oil.

Loss of compression has 2 common causes:

1. 1 or both compression rings damaged.

2. 1 or both valves not sealing.

When I say valves not sealing, I'm not talking about the umbrella seal that sits on top of the valve guide. I'm talking about the business end (compression side) of the valve sealing against it's seat. If a valve gets burned or warped, this is a big leak and the cylinder will lose lots of compression. The dry compression test is simply to see how much compression is there under normal conditions. The wet test consists of putting a teaspoon or so of motor oil directly into the cylinder via the spark plug hole, then checking compression again. Even bad compression rings will seal temporarily when they're wet with oil, but a warped or burned valve won't. So, if adding oil to the cylinder drastically increases compression then you know it's a compression ring problem. If adding oil has little or no effect, then it's likely a valve problem..........usually exhaust (or maybe a hole in your piston). As far as I'm aware, compression and leak down tests are for checking compression issues (not oil control issues).

Oil consumption has 2 common causes:

1. Stuck or otherwise failed oil rings.

2. Bad (worn) valve guides.

Cause #1 was described in detail in an earlier post (above). Valve guides are the holes your valve stems go through. They keep the valves from wiggling around and they should be nice & tight. Over the years the guides wear and this allows the valves to wiggle around a bit as they go up & down. When the valve stems wiggle it's hard on the umbrella seals and they lose their ability to keep oil out of the valve guides. When that happens oil from the valve cover area leaks into the guide holes (between the valve stem and the guide) and down into the combustion chamber. Valve guide leaks are fairly slow and it takes a while for the oil to travel from point A to point B. When you shut the engine off there is still a fair amount of oil in transit to the combustion area. It continues to drip for about 1/2 hr after you shut down the engine. When you restart there is now a lot of oil here and you will see a big puff of blue smoke when you start and rev the engine. It usually only lasts a few seconds, then subsides. On the 4y I have also seen bad valve guides display this same thing during periods of idling (usually for 5 minutes or more). When you rev the engine or take-off after such an event, if the guides are bad you will often see a puff or two of blue smoke. As far as I know, the only way to tell how the oil is getting into the chamber (other than engine disassembly/inspection) is to watch for blue smoke out the exhaust and observe whether it blows blue smoke all the time or mostly immediately after an engine start. On some engines (like the 4y) valve guides can cause a blue puff during the 1st acceleration after a long period of engine idling.

Keep in mind I'm a bit old school & haven't been a professional auto mechanic since the early 90's. There's a whole lot I don't know so I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I wasn't aware that using dry/wet compression tests or leak-down tests to pinpoint oil consumption problems was being done. Anybody else ever do this? If so, I'd like to know more about it. Tim

[ninz30]

So I wrote a response to your post Tim, and I accidentally hit the back button on my phone and erased it all.

In a nut shell, your right. I see your point and my idea behind using the compression test wouldn't be all that effective. I always believed worn piston rings would highly contribute to oil consumption, but it's true the oil rings obviously have more to do with oil control in the combustion chambers than piston rings.

i have been schooled by the mighty wisdom of Tim!!!

[timsrv]

Lol, FWIW, it's not my intent to embarrass or degrade (sorry if it came across that way). The goal is to give the people asking questions accurate information. By no means am I claiming to know it all, heck there's stuff I'm constantly learning (some of it embarrassingly basic). There's always something that gets missed along the way (I don't care who you are). The long winded explanation I gave was to share my understanding of how things work, but I'm never sure if I've got it right. If there's something I'm missing I would hope to be set straight. Isn't that what makes forums so awesome? There's so much to be learned by reading other people's posts. Tim

[ninz30]

There was nothing derogatory here... Just two gear heads having a conversation over a shared interest. It's the same thing I do at the monthly cars and coffee and the biweekly vintage bike night in my area. I'm only 25 and i sure as he'll don't know it all, so it's pretty awesome to have a guy like you Tim who knows so much.

[mahleek87]

My 89 2WD LE burns about a quart every 1,000 miles. Its got 188,000 on it now. I use 10W40 Castrol GTX. Is that normal for that type of mileage? I forgot how much my other van was burning when it had those many miles but I do remember switching to 20W50 around 240K in my other van and using it all the way to 300K until I did my rebuild.

The valve cover gasket was replaced recently and is not leaking, neither is the oil pan gasket which was also replaced recently.

I bought a PCV valve and will have my mechanic change it, I feel like ill break those stuff vacuum lines going to it if I try myself.

[timsrv]

1 qt every thousand miles is decent for a van with that many miles. My 89 cargo had almost that many and didn't burn a drop. But then I dropped a valve through a piston and f'd that one up good. When my 86 had that many miles it would burn a quart every 300 miles. It went down hill fast. By the time it hit 200k it burned a quart every 75 - 100 miles. Not sure why rings get stuck, but some just do........others don't. Usually when you see it in one cylinder you see it in them all. Personally I think it has to do with the quality of oil and how frequently you change it. I always ran synthetic in my 89 but just ran conventional oil in my 86. Of course that could simply be a coincidence. For the vans I've replaced rings in I'm only running synthetic (now). Tim

[mahleek87]

Interesting... Would it be advisable for me to switch to synthetic in my 89? If so, what weight? I'm using 10w40 now but did see that Walmart offers Mobil 1 synthetic 15w50 and thought maybe because of the slightly thicker oil a and synthetic it may burn less

[timsrv]

Everybody has their opinions. My opinion is 10w40 is the thickest you should run in a healthy van. I might consider thicker in one that's having trouble maintaining oil pressure, starting to knock and/or burning a lot of oil. Tim

[mahleek87]

So switching to synthetic is still a good idea with these miles?


Also a Toyota tech told me to put a qt of auto trans fluid in the engine a couple hundred miles before an oil change. It will help clean out the engine and potentially will burn less oil. Thoughts?

[timsrv]

Like I said, everybody has their opinions. There's a lot of BS out there. There is also good/accurate information. The problem is knowing who to believe. I take advice like that with a grain of salt. No way to really know if it's doing any good or not. May actually be harming something. Who knows :cnfsd:

[mahleek87]

For the record:

I tried doing what my toyota technician suggested me. A day before I changed my engine oil, I added half a quart of toyota automatic transmission fluid in my engine while the dipstick showed that the engine was already about 75% full with regular oil. I drove about 80 miles and changed the oil the next day with 4 quarts of castrol gtx 10W40. That is the same oil I have always used since I bought this van 20,000 miles ago.

It has been exactly 500 miles since I changed my oil and today when I checked the dipstick my van only used about 25% of a quart compared to the 50% it would have used up by now. I am so happy that it worked because for me I do alot of driving and it is annoying to keep adding oil in my van!

The tech explained that the atf gets in the rings and cleans some of the build up which helps the rings control oil better.


I will probably try it again when I get ready to change my oil next time to see if it helps more. After that Im open to switch to castrol 10w40 synthetic but I want some input on if I should do that to a van that almost has 190K on it.

[Burntboot]

As Tim said, to each their own.

ATF in the oil isn't anything new, I first heard about that back in the '70's.
It's high in detergents and does a nice job of cleaning things up, works as a great penetrating oil too.

The danger is that it has highly different properties from engine oil, different shear forces among other things.
Can be hard on bearing surfaces.
Used carefully, it's probably fine.

For me, I prefer something formulated for the purpose, but whatever turns your crank.
Glad to hear it worked.
BB

[mahleek87]

Burntboot, I was aware that there might be a risk adding ATF. The toyota tech told me initially to add a qt as well as other places on the internet where I read about it. I was very skeptical so that is why I added only a half. So far I am ecstatic about the results. I can really only drive my 89 van during the winter because the heat doesnt work in my 86. My 86 was rebuilt and does not burn virtually any oil at all but this van was burning a qt every 1000 miles before I tried this.

Im posting a picture below. You can barely see it but the oil is still roughly 60-65% full and this is 728 miles in since the oil change.

2061

Its pretty safe to say that my van probably burns a qt of oil now every 1600-1700 miles versues every 1000 miles. This is huge for me because I do alot of driving atleast 80 miles a day or more in flower deliveries.


When I was changing my oil I had a feeling that this trick worked because as soon as I was added fresh oil in the engine I checked the dipstick and saw some black swirly grime that must have washed out from diff parts of the motor that was showing on the dipstick. Ofcourse that disappeared after driving it because I guess the new filter sucked it up.


I will probably do this same procedure again right before my next oil change to see if it puts the icing on the cake.

[Jlhollowx13]

Ok everyone, i think i finally got my overheating issue figured out. Now that ive been able to drive the van i am noticing that its using oil. I have put a little over 1000 miles on it ive had to add about 2 quarts, maybe a bit more. I dont see any signs of a leak, my compression numbers are uniform and my pcv valve is brand new. I dont see any smoke while driving either (except the other day i started it up from cold and accelerated to 55mph quickly as i pulled onto the highway, i saw some white smoke in the higher rpms, i couldnt replicate it when it was warm so i figured it was just from being cold)

[Jlhollowx13]

I was looking over the recommended viscosities for the different ambient temps and am wondering if that may be the cause? I cant remember 100%, but i might have used 5w-30. Could that make such a huge difference in oil consumption? Im getting my new 4 core radiator hopefully sometime this week (woohoo!) and when that goes in im going to change the oil, using 10w-40 this time. Im also going to do a few more tests and what not to better get to know my van better and make it mine (put a T in the coolant line for easy flushes, test oil pressure gauge against tester, check pluga again, etc).

Anyway, just a thought to provoke some thought elsewhere as i ran across this info today.

[austinfromflorida]

I changed to a half crude half synthetic mix of 10-40 from a 20w-50. I burned more oil and created leaks, the engine is at 300k. switched back to 20w-50 and not near as much oil consumption. I feel it makes a difference.

[trestlehed]

After I had my H.G. replaced I did a lot of high rpm driving on grades while moving to a new
city. Not long after I checked my oil (which was 10w 40) the oil looked real thin and kinda burnt.
I mentioned this to my mechanic and he said I should immediately change the oil and go with
20w 50. This was a big improvement.

Also, if your power steering line is leaking, you need to fix that right away, or it will drip
onto your alternator and kill it.

[Jlhollowx13]

I changed to a half crude half synthetic mix of 10-40 from a 20w-50. I burned more oil and created leaks, the engine is at 300k. switched back to 20w-50 and not near as much oil consumption. I feel it makes a difference.


Thanks for the input. Im hoping thats the case here. Ive been experimenting with different oil wieghts in my other toyotas and still need to find something that works year around. May not be possible where i live as it gets extremely cold in the winter, might just have to switch seasonally. If i can at least use the same wieght in all cars seasonally it woukd help.

[Jlhollowx13]

After I had my H.G. replaced I did a lot of high rpm driving on grades while moving to a new
city. Not long after I checked my oil (which was 10w 40) the oil looked real thin and kinda burnt.
I mentioned this to my mechanic and he said I should immediately change the oil and go with
20w 50. This was a big improvement.

Also, if your power steering line is leaking, you need to fix that right away, or it will drip
onto your alternator and kill it.

Thanks, i know about the deadly power steering, luckily mine is only leaking from the hose next to the alternator so its safe for now. Be fixing it soon anyway but wasnt a huge concern since its dripping safely away from the alternator.

I think i used 5w-30 at first, just bought some 10w-40 to change it with but maybe ill go a little heavier. Ill definitely have to switch in winter though as its consistently below zero here for months on end (one of the coldest places in the country). Since my HG replacement i have been basically driving around mountain passes fully loaded and high rpms, so that makes me feel a bit better about it. Hottest it gets here in summer is 80s to 90s for a small portion of the day so its not extremely hot, but i do have to work the engine around these mountains. Maybe ill grab something heavier for now and save this other oil for my other cars or winter time.

[Burntboot]

5w30 is far too "thin", IIRC, 10W30 is the recommended weight and I wouldn't go beyond that.
20W50 will definitely reduce oil consumption but at the risk of starving the bearings when they need it most, it can be too thick to allow proper oil flow where its needed most.

I too live in a cold area and have never had a problem, (we often see -30C / -40C in winter and +30C in summer) and I run the same oil year round.
A block heater can make for an easier cold start on the really cold days but you want to have a heater that mounts to the block, not in the water jacket.
They can be hard to find but are FAR superior.

I would be tempted to give it a flush with some seafoam before dumping the oil, then change it out to the recommended grade and monitor it from there.
BB

[Jlhollowx13]

5w30 is far too "thin", IIRC, 10W30 is the recommended weight and I wouldn't go beyond that.
20W50 will definitely reduce oil consumption but at the risk of starving the bearings when they need it most, it can be too thick to allow proper oil flow where its needed most.

I too live in a cold area and have never had a problem, (we often see -30C / -40C in winter and +30C in summer) and I run the same oil year round.
A block heater can make for an easier cold start on the really cold days but you want to have a heater that mounts to the block, not in the water jacket.
They can be hard to find but are FAR superior.

I would be tempted to give it a flush with some seafoam before dumping the oil, then change it out to the recommended grade and monitor it from there.
BB

Thanks for the input. I looked at every parts store in town and none of them sell anything heavier than 15w-40 ( and even that was limited), probably because anything heavier just isnt worth using out here with the cold. Ill see how it does with the next oil change, probably will opt to run 10w-40 or a little less heavy in the winter. In the winter one of the parts stores carries all types of those block heaters, ive been wanting to get one for each of my cars but at $100 a pop ive been putting it off. Maybe this year will be the year.

Its a bit challenging to choose the correct weight to accomodate my town as well as my traveling needs. In the summer it doesnt go above 85F, and thats HOT for here (usually stays in 70s), but drive an hour and it could be 100F or more. In the winter its never gets above freezing and typically hovers around 0F, up to about 20F on hot winter days and will drop as low as -40F and below 0F consistently (this place is very hard on cars). But again, drive an hour and your in the 30s to 40s. Block heater is definitely a plus here, guess i just need to do it!

[thetoaster]

Its a bit challenging to choose the correct weight to accomodate my town as well as my traveling needs. In the summer it doesnt go above 85F, and thats HOT for here (usually stays in 70s), but drive an hour and it could be 100F or more. In the winter its never gets above freezing and typically hovers around 0F, up to about 20F on hot winter days and will drop as low as -40F and below 0F consistently (this place is very hard on cars). But again, drive an hour and your in the 30s to 40s. Block heater is definitely a plus here, guess i just need to do it!

Maybe some first hand experience of a similar situation with my van will help you a bit. My 89 2WD Cargo burns about the same amount of oil as you are going through. It has for the last 80,000 miles or so. I've never been able to find any leaks. It doesn't smoke, compression is good and it runs like a top. So my solution was to just add a quart every two fill ups. I've been doing that for six years or so now with no ill effects that I can notice. I've just chalked it up to the fact that my van likes oil. I also only do a full oil change every ten thousand or so because at the rate it burns it it's cycling every 2000 miles. My oil change is more of a filter change really.

As far as oil weight I use 10w-30. I live in a high desert town on the east side of the Sierra Nevada. My home is at 4000 feet and in summer it gets well over 100 more often then I would like. A twenty mile drive puts me at 10,000 feet. I wok in a town that sits at 8000 and has quite cold winters. 10W-30 has never been a problem in all those varied conditions. Just some food for thought.

[mahleek87]

Start off by changing your oil and use 10W40. Then report how much it is burning or even leaking. Sometimes a slow rear main seal leak is there but is harder to spot until it eventually gets worse.

[Jlhollowx13]

Thanks for the input everyone. Im waiting on the arrival of my new 4 core radiator from ability radiator (might be here today!), once that comes in im going to change the oil, fix the power steering leak and do a couple other little things while installing it and then ill be ready to test it out with the thicker oil and new radiator. Ill post results as soon as i can.

In the mean time can anyone tell me the deal with the low oil level light? Does it come on at startup or when the key is in a certain position to let you know its working? Mine doesnt seem to anything and id like to know if its working if this ends up being a long term thing. Thanks!

[CleverUserName]

Have you tried 5w50 or 0w50? Might give you everything you need for all season performance while minimizing oil consumption.

[Jlhollowx13]

Have you tried 5w50 or 0w50? Might give you everything you need for all season performance while minimizing oil consumption.

They dont sell anything heavier than 15w40 where i live or anything lighter than 5w30, probably because anything heavier becomes maple syrup or worse in the winter. Probably could order it, but im going to try the 15w40 first and see if that helps, i dont want to jump around too much and i dont really mind switching oil with the seasons. If that doesnt help ill look into some other options but we will see. My radiator only gets here monday so ill have to wait until then to do it all.

[CleverUserName]

They dont sell anything heavier than 15w40 where i live or anything lighter than 5w30, probably because anything heavier becomes maple syrup or worse in the winter. Probably could order it, but im going to try the 15w40 first and see if that helps, i dont want to jump around too much and i dont really mind switching oil with the seasons. If that doesnt help ill look into some other options but we will see. My radiator only gets here monday so ill have to wait until then to do it all.

5w50 and 0w50 are multigrades. This means that during cold weather the oil acts as a thin 5w or 0w, and then thickens up to a 50w oil at 210F. That is how all multi-weight oils are rated. A 5w30 and 5w50 flow the same during cold weather. So it is thin 5w in cold wheather and thick 50w while at operating temp.

5w50 and 5w40 are fairly common, Mobil 1 makes oil in these viscosities. Walmart and Pepboys has them in stock. Pepboys will ship and they usually have 25-35% off coupons w/ online orders.

I copied this from the Blackstone labs website:



Straight Weight vs. Multi-Grade
Engine oil can be either a straight weight or a multi-grade viscosity. Originally, all oil was straight weight. Relatively few straight weights are manufactured today since most gas- or diesel-engine manufacturers recommend multi-grades. At operating temperature, a straight weight performs just as well as a multi-viscosity oil, and there is nothing wrong with using a straight weight. It's just a simpler form of oil. Some diesel fleets still use straight weights, as do about half the piston aircraft operators. The difference between multi-grade and straight-weight oil is simply the addition of a viscosity improving (VI) additive. The most common grade of automotive oil in use today is the 5W/30, which is a mineral oil refined with VI additives that leave it reading as an SAE 5W viscosity when cold, yet an SAE 30W when hot (210F). The advantage to the multi-weight is that when starting the engine, the multi-viscosity oil (with its thickness of an SAE 5W when cold), allows the engine to spin over more easily. The most common diesel use oil is 15W/40. It is an SAE 15W oil with a VI additive that leaves it the thickness of an SAE 40 weight at operating temperature. What makes an oil a diesel-use oil (rather than automotive-use) is the level of additives used. Diesels require heavier levels of dispersant and anti-wear additives. These heavier additive levels are objectionable for automotive engines since they may interfere with the emission controls mandated by the EPA.




http://www.blackstone-labs.com/oil-viscosity.php

[Jlhollowx13]

5w50 and 0w50 are multigrades. This means that during cold weather the oil acts as a thin 5w or 0w, and then thickens up to a 50w oil at 210F. That is how all multi-weight oils are rated. A 5w30 and 5w50 flow the same during cold weather. So it is thin 5w in cold wheather and thick 50w while at operating temp.

5w50 and 5w40 are fairly common, Mobil 1 makes oil in these viscosities. Walmart and Pepboys has them in stock. Pepboys will ship and they usually have 25-35% off coupons w/ online orders.

I copied this from the Blackstone labs website:




http://www.blackstone-labs.com/oil-viscosity.php

Thanks for that explanation. So in all reality, a 5w-50 should be ok for use here (assuming i can track it down locally or otherwise order it), even in the dead of winter. Ill see how this 15w40 does, i just got my radiator yesterday, so i put it in and just need to burp the system today and i shoukd be good to go. Hopefully ill notice some sort of sifference in oil consumption with this new oil.

I did check my spark plugs yesterday while installing my radiator. They all looked great, very dry, mocha colored, so everything there seems fine. Doesnt seem like any signs of burning. Anyway, im off to finish up my new radiator install, yay!!

[Jlhollowx13]

Ok, so im looking for a bit more insight. I changed my oil to 15w-40, i drove the car about 200 miles and was 1/4 quart low, it was perfectly at the full mark before that. Still im not seeing any leaks and at this rate i would imagine a leak would be pretty evident. Im mulling over a few scenarios to try to figure out the cause but am not sure if my thinking is correct, so any help is appreciated.

1. If i am burning the missing oil shouldnt my spark plugs be an indicator? I would expect to see black spark plugs, but mine are the normal mocha color.
2. Are there any other conditions that would indicate a problem inside the motor other than discolored spark plugs? Im not getting any smoke when warm or any fluids mixing.
3. Are there any hot spots i should look at where oil might be leaking and burning away instantly? I dont smell any burning oil in the engine bay but thought there might be some places to check.
4. Does enough pressure build up in the valve cover and is there enough oil present there to leak out of the valve cover gasket? Im thinking if so, then i might be leaking from there and burning off instantly?

Id like to figure out where this oil is going, one so that i can maybe track down or prevent a serious issue and two that i may be able to remedy this issue so i dont have to add so much oil. I just want to be sure this isnt an indicator of something going wrong in the engine, but with the spark plugs looking good I am not sure if thats the case.

The mocha colored spark plugs make me think im NOT burning oil, can someone confirm this is correct thinking?

Thanks for any help!

[Jlhollowx13]

Ok, so a little update and bump to see if anyone might have some input.

I bought some seafoam to run through the crankcase as many have said that could help. I ran it 100 miles then changed the oil, put more in per the manufacturers instructions and have been driving it since. I also added a bottle of injector cleaner in the gas just for kicks. Not sure if its a fluke but we took it in about a 400 mile camping trip and im getting 2 more MPGs than before! Might do this same treatment to my other vehicles haha.

Anyway, i sprayed off the engine as best i could to cleanit up and make any leaks more noticeable. I did see some seapage from my oil drain bolt and around my oil pressure sensor/oil filter area and on my starter. I replaced the drain plug which has helped the seapage i saw on the oil pan, but i still see some on my starter. I cant really see where its coming from, but my oil pressure gauge seems dry so maybe im getting some past my oil filer and its leaking onto the starter? Ive never had a problem with a leaking oil filter. I also seem to be using about the same amount of oil.

Can anyone confirm im NOT burning oil based on my spark plug color being mocha? Im just trying to determine if it is in fact a leak or something else. Seeing as im not getting any drips while parked it leads me to believe either its only leaking when im driving or not at all. Also at the rate its disappearing i would imagine i would be getting more oil build up around the engine. I also thought maybe i didnt spray the starter well enough since its up there a ways and thats why im seeing stuff there. Ill go try to wash it better today and see how that works.

[Jlhollowx13]

Well another update and some closure on the situation.

Im now running 20w-50 and i seem to still be losing oil. Im still not seeing any leakage from anywhere nor any smoke. Still not sure what it is but im over chasing it as ive exhausted all my resources. Ill just make sure and check it often and keep an eye out for leaks, so far its super clean in there besides my power steering hose leak.

[Jlhollowx13]

Ok, another little update as I feel this needs addressed before too long. I recently took about a 500 mile round trip and I seem to be loosing oil at a rate of about 1/2 to 1 quart every fill up, so about 225 to 250 miles. This is a bit excessive to me and I feel at this rate it's bound to get worse. I've done a little research and now suspect sticking piston rings. Any input on that? The van was horribly overheated enough to Crack the head, could that have something to do with it? There is nothing externally leaking.

With only 135k miles on this engine I would really hate to need an entire rebuild, especially after the amount of time and money I've already dumped into it. I didn't notice anything bad on the cylinder walls when I did my head gasket but I didn't pay super close attention as that was not my concern. I'm wondering if I can get away with just new rings? Also, what other parts should be considered for replacement, what and where do I order a kit from and can I do it without pulling the engine or the head again?

The engine runs great, seems to have plenty of power and the compression is within spec when I ran a compression check after my head gasket job. Just using way too much oil for my liking.

Thanks for any insight and help!

[mahleek87]

Sorry to hear that you have tried so hard to figure out your problem and cannot figure it out. 250 miles / burning 1 qt of 20w50 is highly excessive.

If you have ruled out all potential leaks. Rear Main Seal, Front Seal. Then I really dont have any idea where the oil could be going. These vans usually leak alot out of the rear main seal, but you would see the leak on the drive way or under the van where the engine meets the transmission.


If you have a friend rev the engine a bit while you stand behind it near the exhaust im sure you would be able to smell the oil burning.

One thing you could try is putting half a qt of transmission fluid in your engine oil and drive around a day or two and then change the oil and put fresh engine oil in there. (I recommend Castrol GTX 10W40.) If there is gunk built up around your rings this could clear it out a bit and perhaps the rings would grip the cylinder walls better and it would burn less. I wouldn't do it more then once tho.

My van almost reduced its consumption by half when I did that once.

[CleverUserName]

Did you ever try the 20w50 or 5w50 wt oil?

Edited: Nevermind, I see that you are running the 20w50.

[Burntboot]

"Horribly overheated" is never good and I would consider 250mls/Qt to be excessive.
Given that kind of a burn rate, there has to be some evidence of where its going.

I would probably start by cleaning it within an inch of its life, just to ensure leaks aren't a contributing factor.
The engine should be dry and relatively clean, mud and grime can hold an amazing amount of oil.

For what its worth, the oil control rings in the piston are below the compression rings, they're supposed to scrape the majority of the oil off the cylinder walls.
You can have good compression and still pass a lot of oil into the combustion chamber if the oil control rings are seized in.
Carbon deposits build up on the ring lands and can eventually lead to the rings being unable to move (expand and contract)
Thermal events seem to exacerbate the problem.

The best fix is a complete teardown or engine replacement and knowing that, chemicals are still worth a shot, at this point you have little to lose.
As long as you don't do any internal damage in the event you chose to overhaul.
(ATF is very effective but not a very good engine lubricant)

[Jlhollowx13]

Thanks for the insight. The reason I believe it's the rings is there is absolutely no other signs of losing oil. The engine/transmission are completely dry, no leaks of ANY kind ANYWHERE. The engine and tranny are very clean as I cleaned it all up prior to my HG job and after, but even before that it was all very clean. Im used to tracking down leaks in old cars and have gotten used to what to look for and how to trace it back and thats the one thing i love about the van, no visible leaks. Especially at this rate it would be very evident, another of my yotas haso a leak from the oil pan gasket and it doesn't lose near this much and the leak is very evident. Im also not getting any mixing of oil in coolant or anything, ie head gasket is good to go. the odd thing is, you would think I'd be billowing smoke losing this much oil, but I'm not. I've tried making it smoke and the only time I can get it to is if I pull out onto the highway from my driveway when I just started the van and the engine is cold. It will puff a bit of smoke when I rev it above 3k to 3500 rpms and above. This seems normal for most engines though being cold. If it's warmed up I don't see any smoke. I had my dad behind me the other day while going up a mountain pass completely loaded down. He said he didn't notice any smoke and I wasn't being easy on the throttle. Even this last trip going up the same pass I could not get any visible smoke even revving the engine up to 4500 rpms +.

I have seafoamed the engine and fuel multiple times now, have not tried the tranny fluid. The one thing I will mention and is probably obvious, it seems to burn a little more oil on Highway trips as opposed to me just driving in town or to work. Basically I have to work the engine a lot harder on the highway of course.

I might pull the spark plugs again and see how they look, might show more signs of oil burning. I'd love it to be something easier than rings, but I'm not too sure at this point.

One last thing I'll mention is that I have noticed a bit of liquid on the underneath side of the intake manifold, if you lay on the ground, crawl under and look up from below. It hasn't moved anywhere else and I figured it was from spillage that occurred when topping it off as it hasn't dripped, or migrated at all. Maybe it's blowing back from internally as well, but either way it's not enough to account for what I'm missing.

If anyone else has any ideas it's much appreciated. Winter is approaching here and I'll have to go to a lighter weight oil to accommodate the cold which probably means I'll burn more. Hopefully I can get it figured out soon, or if it's the rings I'll have to save my pennies through the winter and hope it doesn't get too bad before I can afford to fix it.

[Jlhollowx13]

I went to look at things and I think I am seeing oil under the intake manifold but I'm pretty positive it's from the few times I've spilled it trying to fill it. I'm going to give the atf fluid a try when the oil gets low enough to add a half quart. Today when I first started it I had my wife rev it up and I saw a slight amount of smoke, but something I'd consider fairly normal for an engine that has been running for 20 seconds. I need to do it when it's hot and I'll report what I see.

[originalkwyjibo]

I suspect the same issue with my own van. Septemper of 2012 after sitting for awhile I did a hg job on my van and got it back on the road. Prior to the hg repair it used a quart every 800-1000 miles so after the repair I made sure to check the oil regularly. Like every time I filled the gas tank. I spent way too much money on the head job to have something else go wrong so I was checking all fluid levels. After 9 months of this the engine hadn't used a drop of anything so when my kids left some stuff in the van in the way of rotating the captains chair to be able to open the hood I let it go for a couple fillups. Unbeknownst to me there is a plastic fuel pump spacer between the engine block and the blockoff plate that the fuel filter mounts to. Like all things plastic and rubber under our hoods it was brittle and at some point a chunk fell out and caused a massive oil leak. (I intended to create a thread to warn other people about this but just haven't done it yet.)It was dripping in such a way that it nearly all blew off while going down the road so there was really nothing dripping to speak of when I would park it. I also had a transmission leak at the time from some trail damage that had already left some spots. One day while pulling away from an intersection I noticed the oil pressure go up and then down as I accelerated and immediately pulled into a store and checked the oil. It took three quarts to fill it. 100 miles later at the gas station two quarts low again. This happened a couple more times before I figured out where the oil was going and fixed it. Ever since, it uses a quart every 100 miles. No leaks, compression is good, I've done the seafoam I've tried different oils, short oil change intervals and all that even looked in the cylinders with an inspection camera for scoring. It's been like this for two years now. After a year of burning oil it plugged up the catalytic converter and I had to cut it out. Coked oil rings is a common issue on certain Subaru's and Saturns and I have seen the before and after on those. The piston is supposed to essentially float inside the rings so it can move back and forth with the sideloading of the rod pushing up and down on it. The rings are suppossd to remain in firm contact with the cylinder wall not the piston. When the gunk starts to form the rings gst pushed into it with each stroke and then they stay there. No magic potion will undo the crust in a ring groove that's bad enough to cause that kind of consumption. As far as the lack of smoke, I never saw any until I removed the cat. My theory with mine is that I overheated the oil by having so little in it and caused it to coke the rings. Sorry for the long winded reply. I've been meaning to post my experiences with this for sometime now.

[Jlhollowx13]

Thanks for the extra insight. I'll look closers around the fuel pump on mine to be sure. I kind of thought the same about the cat and lack of smoke. Maybe the cat is catching it or something?

I'm going to try whatever I can at this point to get it working right. The wife is not happy with the amount of money we've already spent and spending more on it anytime soon is not going to hapoen.

[originalkwyjibo]

The cat through chemical processes and extreme heat will burn off or convert excess emissions to less harmful ones. The oil smoke is likely being processed the same way. It was a huge difference on mine when I got on the throttle after I removed the cat. I never told my wife what I spent on hg job and figured spending more would likely cause her to ask questions which is why it's been this way for two years. I have another block in the garage to slowly rebuild but it's part of a long list unfortunately.

[Jlhollowx13]

I've been searching online for cheap tricks to unstick rings and ran across marvel mystery oil and atf, both being used in the cylinders through the spark plug holes and let soak and also in the oil. I think I'll grab some and let it soak for a couple days. It will also give me a chance to re-inspect the spark plugs for any signs for specific cylinders. If I can track down a scope I'll try to inspect the cylinders walls as well but not sure I'll be so lucky.

[Jlhollowx13]

Ok so I pulled my plugs to do the oil in cylinders. I've attached a picture of one of the plugs. They all look exactly the same, but it's not what I expected to see if it's burning oil, but then again I've never had a car that did. The 2f engines in my land cruisers both have nice mocha color tips, both are healthy engines. These look more white. I read a little up on white plugs and it said it could be from wrong timing or hot temps. Right after my HG repair we took it on a test trip and it ran hot, when I got home I did timing which was off and used it again. It still ran hot until I got a replacement radiator. I'm thinking it's possibly residual from then?

Any input is appreciated. Not even sure if I'm burning oil now.

[Jlhollowx13]

Forgot to add phot, here it is.2997

[originalkwyjibo]

Your attachment is missing. I have pulled the plugs on mine a few times since the oil consumption started and was also surprised at their appearance. Aside from a buildup accumulating in the well around the center electrode insulator mine have been the normal grayish brownish. I have cleaned them with a spark spark plug blaster each time and replaced them once with a spare set but I'm also driving 100-200 miles a week. Maybe I'll see if I've got the old set and post a pic.

[Jlhollowx13]

I wanted to compare to what they looked like before the new hg. Here are photos of the same ones but before. They have all since evened out in appearance but are white similar to one of the ones here and as shown above.29982999300030013001

[Jlhollowx13]

One more thing I'll note in case it helps is that upon a cold start the van turns over a few times before it starts. It doesn't just start right away. It's done this since I bought it. Maybe a timing issue, but I did my timing with a light and it didn't seem to change this. It seems to start fine when warm.

I need confirmation, but from what I understand if an engine is burning oil it will have oily plugs. To me it doesn't seem the case with my van. The color of the plugs may be due to me using additives in the fuel to clean things up but I would think I'd still get oily plugs if it's burning oil at this rate.

Some possibilities come to mind, any insight is appreciated.
1- maybe I have a stuck valve? Seems unlikely with a new head and all the fittings gone through. How would I determine this? Would my compression check showing all cylinders within range and consistent numbers rule out a valve?
2- maybe I connected something wrong upon installation (pcv or something) and it's sucking oil from somewhere else? Is this even a possibility? If so what lines could cause it? Seems unlikely that I'd hook it up wrong as I used the FSM schematic and followed the process as in the FSM. I could have made a mistake though which is why I ask.

Other than this I'm at a lose. Not sure where this oil could be going. :wall:

[Burntboot]

If an engine is burning oil, you won't see "oil" on the plugs as you would on the dipstick.
Oil burns dirty, creates a lot of build-up, usually oil fouled plugs will show crusty carbon deposits, of varying colours, they can build-up evenly or not.
Given all the additives you've tried, I wouldn't put to much weight behind how they currently look.

What are those plugs?
Spark plugs are funny things and after years of experimentation, I have found that most engines run best on factory spec'd plugs.
Those multi-tip things have been known to cause all sorts of issues.
They would be the first thing I would change out.

A "stuck" valve isn't likely.
If the valve was stuck closed push-rods++ would be bent, if it was stuck open, even partially, that would be evident with the compression test.

Definitely worth going back over everything you've done.
Thats actually the first thing I do whenever I run into troubles, especially weird ones.
Having a clear plan and keeping notes helps too.

The cold start issue probably isn't related but it depends a lot on whats happening.
If we're talking Rrrrr,rrrrr,rrrr,vroom - no issue.
But if we're talking about cranking for a minute or longer before the vroom happens, thats different.
The fuel system is designed to hold pressure, if it isn't holding pressure the fuel pump will have to fill the rail and pressurize it.
Try turning the key to the run position without cranking, you'll likely hear the pump running (normally it might run for a sec or 2) when it shuts off, crank the engine.
If it starts right up, you know to look into why you're losing fuel pressure.
Could be the non-return valve or it could be a leaking injector (preferably cold-start), the later being capable of contaminating the crankcase which could contribute to the oil burning situation.

[Jlhollowx13]

Thanks for the input. As far as oil on the plugs if it's burning I wasn't very clear. I thought it would be dirty, black and wet looking if it was burning oil, not dry and white. As for additives I have only put seafoam in the first tank of gas after the hg job about 5k miles ago and in oil foreserves first fill up after the job, I've changed the oil numerous times since then for various reasons. I'm just now using chemicals again.

I'm not sure what the plugs are, they were in there and we're new according to the guy I bought it from so I kept them. I assumed they were stock as that's what I use and figured others do. I'll change them out before putting it back together. I guess the wrong plugs could also account for other things.

Stuck valve out of the question is good, thank you.

I think there might be an issue with fuel pressure as you explained. I'll have to investigate further but I did have to change an o-ring on an injector, maybe there is another. Can you elaborate on how this could affect oil consumption? I'd it basically diluting the oil, causing it to slip past rings easier?

[Burntboot]

Yes, fuel contamination of oil causes it to thin and burn and wash down cylinder walls and all sorts of nasty things.
Its just one more thing to be on the look-out for.

There have always been magic spark plugs on the market but I never seen those before.
Using factory plugs guarantees getting the right heat range and depth of electrode (relative to the combustion chamber)
If you haven't already replaced the O-rings on the spark plug tubes, now would be a good time.
Just another, hard to see after its all together, potential oil leak, so while you're in there...

Dirty, black and wet looking is usually a sign of running rich (excessive fuel)

[Jlhollowx13]

Thanks for that. I am soaking the cylinders now with MMO and will replace spark plugs. I'll also recheck timing, check pcv system and possibly pull the valve cover again, clean it again and retorque the head. I'll run it for awhile and pull the plugs and check consumption to further investigate if none of the above help.

[mahleek87]

Those plugs dont belong in these vans. Make sure you get the right ones as stated in the manual.

[Jlhollowx13]

Those plugs dont belong in these vans. Make sure you get the right ones as stated in the manual.

Thanks. I wonder why these were put in then.using anything but what the manufacturer calls for is dumb imo.

One question: will the timing be affected by diffevent plugs? Basically do I need to redo my timing once the new, correct plugs are installed?

[Burntboot]

Might be a good idea, while its soaking, to put a wrench on the crank pulley and roll it over by hand a couple of times just to spread the MMO around, better chance of getting it to where it needs to be.

[Jlhollowx13]

Might be a good idea, while its soaking, to put a wrench on the crank pulley and roll it over by hand a couple of times just to spread the MMO around, better chance of getting it to where it needs to be.

Thanks, I will do that in the morning and also see if any has seeped down at all. They were completely full so I'll be able to tell if it's soaking down at all.

[originalkwyjibo]

Those are E3 spark plugs. It's one of the latest and greatest designs in spark plugs. I've never used them so I don't know whether they work or are just a gimmick. I'm with the others though, give it some factory spec #P16R Denso's.

[Jlhollowx13]

Ok, I let a bunch of MMO soak the cylinders for a few days and changed the plugs. None of the parts stores had or could get the stock plugs, either Denso or ngk, the closest I could get was the cheapest ngk's or iridium, no Denso at all. Since the stocks are platinum I figured upgrade to iridium rather than down to the cheapest ones. Cleaned up everything, changed the oil and started it up and man did it smoke! Glad I live where I do! I let most of it run out at home then took it for a drive until it seemed to clear up fully. It runs great, sounds great and now only time will tell if this did anything.

[silverscoot]

Hi all you ToyoVan lovers. I've had this van for a decade, she has been mostly just used a bit here and there for 50km trips round town. As far as we can tell, the van is not leaking oil but all the oil is gone within a few hundred miles.
Where could it all be going? It's not on the ground so I am guessing it's going up in smoke. It has been this way for many months. Along the way, we changed hoses and seals and washed the engine. Still no idea how or why all the oil disappears.
Any pointers or other posts that could lead to a disagnosis would be most appreciated. Where to start?

cheers,

Little Bear Van
1987 2WD:wave2:

[JDM VANMAN]

I may not have the correct diagnosis but is it possible it's mixing in with your coolant and then coming out of the exhaust?:?:

if it's not leaking on the pavement and you've steam cleaned the motor and there no signs of leaks then it's going into somewhere internally? Just my guess?

[Carbonized]

The rabbit in the hat is drinking it. :wnk:

[silverscoot]

I may not have the correct diagnosis but is it possible it's mixing in with your coolant and then coming out of the exhaust?:?:

if it's not leaking on the pavement and you've steam cleaned the motor and there no signs of leaks then it's going into somewhere internally? Just my guess?

Yes, I didn't clean the part of the engine by the distributor for I was worried that water might damage something but I should find a way to cover it perhaps?.. then pressure wash that side of the engine to get a better look.

I doesn't smell good during the ride (windows open always) and even after when parked, some kind of fumes come into the cabin by way of the older engine rubber seal.

Could the oil be all burning up internally? Sounds like something major is off.

Please, do keep those educated guesses coming.

[silverscoot]

The rabbit in the hat is drinking it. :wnk:

That rabbit won't live long with so much oil in its diet.

Someone suggested I take it to Toyota for an estimate on the repair and maybe that might shed light on the cause.:cnfsd:

[originalkwyjibo]

Try this thread: MOD EDIT — now-circular link removed
There's some discussion ABOVE about oil viscosity that isn't particularly relevant but there's also some info on possible causes of oil consumption.

MOD EDIT — threads merged

[silverscoot]

Interesting thread, reminded me that when I bought the van from a mechanic in Vancouver he told me to only use synthetic oil.
So, for the first 7 years I did stay synthetic then I switched to regular oil. I saved a bundle in oil costs but here we are. I really wonder... could it be that simple.

Looking for Clues . May it be so elementary Dear Watson.

I'll go film my exhaust at when I startup the van tomorrow.

The game is afoot:wave2:

[silverscoot]

So here's a link to a 30 second video of the Toyovan's morning startup exhaust.

I'm a little colour blind... what's it look like is burning? I thought oil would have more of a blue tint to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3o6ueT0kpI&feature=em-upload_owner


:bluevan:

Little Bear

[originalkwyjibo]

LOL I too am chromatically challenged so I feel your pain. As mentioned in the thread I previously linked you to, the catalytic converter can burn off a fair amount of oil making it appear that you aren't blowing much out the tailpipe. At least until it starts to plug up from it. That said, that's a good amount of smoke. If it's not leaking and it's not showing up in the coolant, there really isn't any other place for it to go but out the tailpipe.

[silverscoot]

Sure is mysterious. Still drives nice if you don't mind the smell, driving with the windows open and filling up the oil every time you fill the gas...
Love to get this fixed but not sure where to start looking :bluevan:

I'm inclined to fly Dr. Tim up here to the north to make a definitive diagnosis so we can repair this sweet van.

[originalkwyjibo]

Still drives nice if you don't mind the smell, driving with the windows open and filling up the oil every time you fill the gas...
This is precisely what I had been doing for 2 1/2 years until I came upon a deal too good to pass up in April on another van. Actually, I drove with the windows up whenever possible and the front heater fan cranked up. This caused a positive pressure in the cabin and for the most part helped keep the smoke and odor out. The smoky beast now sits awaiting it's turn in the garage.

[fuquan]

Hope it’s okay to add my story to this thread:


My van burns oil. I am no professional mech, but like many others here, I enjoy learning as I go. In that spirit, I performed 3 compression tests in the following order:


1) Dry test: Tested compression on cylinders #1-#4, in that order, on a cold engine with outside air temperature around 50 deg F.
2) Wet test: Added approximately 1-2 TABLEspoons of oil each cylinder, testing compression immediately after adding the oil to each cylinder. (Only later did I learn that 1 TEAspoon is recommended).
3) Post-wet test: For good measure, tested compression again, starting at cylinder #1 and moving to #4. No new oil added.


Results for cylinder #1-#4.
1) Dry test: 170, 165, 160, 170
2) Wet test: 200, 210, 245-250, 280
3) Post-wet test: 210, 230, 235-240, 270


A couple questions:
1) The FSM says to do compression tests on a warm engine, but I did it on a cold engine. Could that have influenced my results substantially?


2) Dry test results are within spec (185 +/- 14). Everything I have read says that a wet test is not necessary, but I did one anyway. Are the results meaningful? Wet test results seem VERY high, and the increase progressively from cylinder #1 - #4. Could this be due to testing bias, such as increased skill at pouring oil down the spark plug hole (e.g., a bit more oil poured into each cylinder, from 1-4)? Or, could the engine temperature have increased with each crank, resulting in cylinder 4 being warmer than cylinder 1?

[timsrv]

The wet test is usually done as a troubleshooting measure if/when there's a problem with the dry test. Since oil will temporarily help seal leaking piston rings, if pressure improves significantly, then you'd know the problem to be with the rings. Since oil has little to no effect on a leaky valve, if there's no change, then you'd know the problem was with a bad valve.

To my knowledge, there's no exact science to this (lots of variables). So I usually don't bother with compression tests unless I'm chasing a miss. FYI, in the past, I've seen engines with no spark fail compression tests miserably, but then come back to normal after spark was restored (and engine had been running again). This is particularly true on old/worn engines. When an engine becomes disabled, most people will crank & crank until the battery goes dead. With no spark, the raw gasoline builds in the cylinders and washes away residual oil from the rings & cylinder walls. Since oil helps to seal rings, you could lose huge amounts of compression simply due to that............thus the reason for only doing the test on a warm engine (warm engines have just been running and the cylinder walls are still wet with "normal amounts" of residual oil). Doing the test on a warm engine also insures changes due to expansion are closer to their normal running conditions.

And yes, compression can be influenced by how much oil actually entered the cylinder. If there's a lot of oil in there, since fluids don't compress, the volume can increase the compression ratio significantly (until it clears), so unless you had an exact way to keep uniform volume, then there's little merit to how drastic the change was. FYI, when I do the wet test, I use an old school hand-pump oil gun with a long nozzle. 3 squirts = about 1 tsp. I will stick the nozzle right into the cylinder via the spark plug hole (insures equal distribution per cylinder).

When you say "post wet test", did you start and run the van after the wet test? The oil will stay in there until the engine has been run. I'd recommend a trip around the block with jack rabbit starts to completely remove it. Tim

[fuquan]

When you say "post wet test", did you start and run the van after the wet test? The oil will stay in there until the engine has been run. I'd recommend a trip around the block with jack rabbit starts to completely remove it. Tim

The post-wet test was done immediately after the wet test. I did not start the van between tests. Basically, the wet-test pressures seemed so high to me that I wanted to do the test over. After the post-wet test I ran the van and it smoked like heck. Reminded me of the time I used seafoam.

[Ace MM]

I've used Bardahls no smoke, on a motor with bad rings and had good results. Added 8mos to its life.
I like marvel mystery oil better than ATF in the crankcase. Seaform has also done its job.
No Band-Aids are gonna repair a worn part.

Couple squirts of oil on a second compression test will ID rings as the issue. Leak test for the valve seals, HG or?
Any that increase significantly over the first are suspect.

Why burn more expensive(synthetic) oil until fixed???