Fuel gauge not working?

[timsrv]

I've seen this problem on 4 of my vans so far and each time it ended up being the same thing (fuel level sending unit inside the fuel tank). The 1st couple times I fought with it and pulled the entire tank out of the van. The last couple times I left the tank partially installed and was able to complete the job much faster! Doing it this way will save about 1/2 the time and the difficulty level is reduced. Here are some pictures I took while doing the job. Note, this is a 4wd van, but the procedure is the same on a 2wd.

1st step is to use up or drain most of your gas. In this case I drove the van until the low fuel light came on, then did the job (if you drain gas, familiarize yourself with safe gasoline handling practices before attempting). Jacking the vehicle is required, so safely lift and secure the vehicle for access. In this case, I left the front wheels on the ground, put my jack under the rear differential and jacked it up until the rear wheels were about 1 foot off the ground. I secure the vehicle by placing jack stands under each side of the rear axle. Once you have access underneath, remove the (5) 12mm bolts that secure the plastic tank protector, drop it down and get it out of the way. Note: picture shows front 3 bolts (rear bolts not shown).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9570.jpg

Next loosen the (2) 12mm front tank mounting bolts but don't remove (make them very loose).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9560.jpg

Next pull the sending unit electrical plug from it's spring clip mount and separate it from the wire harness. Pull the 14mm bolt that secures the tank support strap, and pull the strap down and out of the way.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9565.jpg

Now completely remove the rear tank mounting bolt and allow the tank to drop. It will drop about 8" before the fuel hoses pull tight. It's okay to let it hang on on these hoses as long as tank is mostly empty.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9567.jpg

Here's the tank hanging by the hoses.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9556.jpg

This is the cool part, as a pure coincidence, the area between the RR tire and the wheel well lines up perfectly with the sending unit on the hanging tank. This is the perfect access tunnel for reaching in and removing the sender! Note: Before removal, it's a very good idea to blow the dust and debris off the top of the tank with compressed air. Focus on in the immediate area of the sending unit flange. A 90 deg scribe followed by more air works well to loosen and disperse the dirt and crud from inside the Phillip's head screw cavities before attempting to remove them. Be sure to wear eye protection and avoid breathing the dust while using compressed air.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9554.jpg

There is the perfect amount of room to pull the sender out and replace. The sender has a long arm with a swinging float. There are several bends in the arm, so it is necessary to rotate and change angles as you lift.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/whatever/IMG_9551.jpg

Once out, you can use an ohm meter to check the range of resistance. This is one of those rare instances that an analog ohm meter will work the best. Once hooked up you can move the float up and down and you can watch the needle on you meter make linear movements with the float position. If there are dead spots (and there likely will be), then you can either replace the entire unit or try to repair. Last I checked Toyota still had these available. Keep in mind that 4wd and 2wd vans use different senders. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is, but they call for different part numbers in the EPC. Toyota Part # 83320-80034 is used for 4wd & Toyota part # 83320-29857 is used for the 2wd. Prices vary from place to place, but you can expect it to cost between $100 - $150.

IMO, although possible, repair is not probably not your best option. I have done this successfully in the past, but I didn't feel it would be a lasting fix. I guess it depends on the condition of the rheostat and the contact spot on the arm inside. If you choose to go this route, disassemble the little metal box by bending the tabs. Carefully inspect the rheostat and the arm. If the arm and/or the rheostat aren't worn through, then you might get lucky. It's important that these parts be clean and that there is enough tension on the sliding arm to make good electrical contact with the rheostat coil. I found using a pencil eraser is great for cleaning these contacts.

The rheostat arm can be re-arched by forcing it past it's normal travel and making it slip on it's shaft. Once it's extended beyond it's normal travel and is away from the rheostat you can grab it near the base with a pair of needle nose pliers. Once the base of the arm is held steady, you can carefully bend it (be careful not to go too far). Once you are satisfied with the shape of the arm, rotate it back to it's normal range of travel and retest using the ohm meter. Reassemble in the reverse order of disassembly and you should now have a working fuel gauge. Tim

[VanSurfer]

Thank you for another awesome post Tim!!! I've been putting this off since I bought Sue, relying on my mileage instead. I guess this is now on the list for when it dries up.

[coronan]

I've tried a few online vendors. So far 83320-80034 has been discontinued.

[timsrv]

That sucks. I'm doing a major project on my van right now and finding this "NLA" scenario very familiar. Looks like you'll be stuck repairing the old one or finding one in a salvage yard. Tim

[coronan]

I'm wondering if the sending unit is the same across multiple applications and only the arm varies.

Do you know proper resistance values full and empty for a good unit. It would be easy to test against another new part.

Also, how many inches does then end of the arm travel on the van sending unit?

It would be easy to weld the end of the van arm onto another sending unit.

I aim to replace my fuel pump soon. I want to do it all in one shot and be set for the next 100,000 mi. Like you, I value my time over doing the job twice.

And why no aftermarket support?

[timsrv]

Aftermarket companies target markets that bring good sales. Parts that fit multiple year, make, model vehicles are typically where they focus. Specialty parts that don't sell well and/or only fit a small range of vehicles are not something they want to waste time with. These sending units would fall into this category. That being said, they do make universal sending units and it's possible one of these could be made to fit. When things get beyond repair and used parts dry up (we're almost there), then such repairs will be required. Until then it just makes more sense to repair or find stuff in salvage yards.

The range of resistance is ~3 ohms (empty) to ~110 ohms (full). Resistance values for both 4wd & 2wd are the same, so I would speculate the difference in sending units might be with the float arm (4wd tanks are physically different from 2wd tanks).

I don't have any of these currently laying around so I can't measure arms. If you can still get this for a 2wd, then I'd probably get one and compare when the tank is removed. Then rework/modify as required. Be sure to share what you find out! Thanks. Tim

[coronan]

Here is a toyota fuel sender for as little as $30.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/03-Toy (http://www.ebay.com/itm/03-Toyota-Matrix-fuel-level-sensor-sender-unit-Part-83320-02050-OEM-/331087738319?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d165df5cf&vxp=mtr)ota-Matrix-fuel-level-sensor-sender-unit-Part-83320-02050-OEM-/331087738319?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d165df5cf&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/03-Toyota-Matrix-fuel-level-sensor-sender-unit-Part-83320-02050-OEM-/331087738319?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d165df5cf&vxp=mtr)

The resistor box looks like the one in your picture.
I would just have to get the Full angle and Empty angle to match the van and mount it to the lid.

The wire diagram in the manual says the van sender is only 2 wires.
I asked about the 2wd part # when discussing the NLA status with some vendors. The 2wd unit is also NLA.

[timsrv]

Yeah, who knows. I just placed an order with Toyota today. 8 out of the 12 parts ordered are NLA. These are things I need now. I've got the dash apart and the windshield out. Would really like to put new spray nozzles and wiper parts in. I'm having my parts guy look into ordering stuff from Japan, but probably no dice there either. So I'm likely stuck with adapting something else or finding good used ones in a salvage yard. That's not an option now though as there have been zero 86 - 89 vans in the Portland area yards for months now. There is currently 1 85 van at the Sherwood, OR Pick-N-Pull, but that's it. Tim

[coronan]

I would like to go this route.

VDO 226-164 - VDO Fuel Tank Sending Units
http://www.jegs.com/i/VDO/918/226-164/10002/-1

I just need to find it locally so it can be returned easily if it doesn't work out.

[timsrv]

Yeah, that's a universal aftermarket like I was referring to above. I've rigged these up before and these are adjustable (depth of tank and length of float arm), so you should be able to come up with an acceptable travel. Ohms are close enough so empty would be correct. It might only go up to 3/4 on the gauge when full, but it's empty that's important. If having it read full is an issue you could probably adjust a bit with a resistor, but probably not worth the effort. I'm thinking the hole in the tank would be too big, so you'd probably need to fab an adapter disc. Tim

[coronan]

I'm dropping my tanks to swap the pump and sensor and clean it out. Lots of chunks cam out when I pulled the drain plug.
Hopefully I'll be able to find an equivalent level sensor.

Right now i cant break the fuel lines that have compression fittings. I have flair nut wrenches but the small side still wants to round over.
I tried a crows foot wrench and an impact. no love.

Any words of wisdom tim???

[timsrv]

Not all tubing wrenches are created equal. The cheap ones aren't much better than standard open end wrenches. I have no idea what you're using, but take a look at the meat on this high quality wrench and compare to yours. If yours aren't like this one then this could be your problem. Of course once you round the nut you're done.........hopefully that hasn't happened yet. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/_121_zpsfb3d9624.jpg

[coronan]

Thanks Tim.

I only use my flair nut wrenches once a year so they are from harbor freight and havent failed me in the past. It might be time to upgrade.
Also key is to clean the tar off the fittings and put a drop of penetrating lube on there.

I noticed 2 things.
1. my vapor check valve going Tank to engine is bad is this worth tracking down another? Rock Auto doesnt list it in the Fuel or emissions section.

2. What is the extra sensor and wire on the fuel level sensor?

I rang out the fuel sensor and resistance looks smooth all the way through. 112 - 3.4 ohms. Perhaps the issue is in the dash. My gauge doesn't go much past 1/2 way the the fuel light comes on. It has since i purchased the van.
The light has always been accurate.

[timsrv]

Good point with the penetrating oil, this can help. So can heat, but for obvious reasons I'd not want to use an open flame here :shock:. Any time you see a faulty part in your fuel system (especially when things are exposed) I would highly recommend replacing it. The only vapor check valve I know of is between the charcoal canister and the tank. It's Toyota part #90917-10020 & sells for around $40 (assuming it's still available). I wouldn't expect to find this part aftermarket (OEM only).

Checking the tank sensor with a digital ohm meter can be problematic. Analog is much preferred for this job (marginal sensors will be much more obvious). Still, if you're getting good results the full range, this indicates a problem with the gauge head. There is a test outlined in the manual for this. That single wire sensor IS for your low fuel warning light, so even if the rheostat coil is messed up it won't effect the low level warning light.

While you have the sensor out, make sure there is a little tension between the contact arm and the rheostat coil. Once the rheostat cover is off, the contact arm can be rotated beyond it's normal travel. Once off the coil surface it should deflect slightly downward. if it doesn't, bend it slightly downward, then put it back into it's normal range of travel. Using a pencil eraser on the coil and the contact arm is a good idea. Have fun :wnk:. Tim

PS: When it comes to cheap tools, I understand the struggle and agree they often do the job just as well. Tubing wrenches are an exception. The problem with the open end is flex. Some of the cheap tubing wrenches are no better than a standard open end wrench (I learned this the hard way). When tube fitting nuts come off easy there is no need for a tubing wrench.........it's the stubborn ones that make the expensive wrenches worth while. The last thing you need to worry about while having this sort of problem is to stop and go find/buy the right tool.......or worse yet, rounding off the nut. If you plan on turning wrenches in the future, these are a "must have" thing for your tool box. To be honest I rarely use my tubing wrenches, but when I need them I'm always happy they are there. They have paid for themselves many times over.

[coronan]

Is this the check valve you speak of?
1470
I'm going to try to plug in the fuel sender on the car and check response on the gauge. I also picked up the vdo sender to check signal out put and reception.

On s good note the tank looked clean and the fuel pump sock looked new.
I'll check pump out put tonight.

[timsrv]

Yes, that's the one I gave the part number for (above). I was going to suggest testing the gauge with the new sender but wasn't sure you got it. Just keep in mind it's not an instant response. Fuel gauge travel is slow........sometimes will take a couple of minutes to catch up to sender position. Tim

[coronan]

I didnt have time to call on the check valve today. But $40!! :dizzy: is it worth it?. I can probably pickup a universal from mc master carr for less.

[timsrv]

This is a specialized check valve. It's not just the inlet & outlet sizes, it's also the spring pressure inside of it. IMO not worth messing with substitutes unless OEM is NLA. Tim

BTW, how did you determine the old one was bad?

[coronan]

I saw the arrow on it. Blew both ways through it by mouth. It passed air both ways. There is more resistance one way than the other. It may be working if you say it has some sort of pressure relief in it.


I ran range of motion on my fuel sensor. The gauge does not go below 1/2 way . I feel a gauge cluster coming.

The VDO sender does fit. but the bolt pattern has a slightly larger bolt center. Slight grinding will be required. I think I'll install it and start looking for a gauge.

[timsrv]

There is no pressure relief feature. The spring will only determine how much pressure it takes before flow occurs in the correct direction. If yours flows both ways then you're right (it's toast). Most check valves are for a pressurized liquid, so if you buy a universal one, that's likely what you'll get. Depending on the amount of pressure it's designed for, it may not flow either direction for low pressure vapor.

That's nice to know about the VDO sender. Not a perfect replacement, but as these vans get older & OEM parts become extinct, aftermarket parts like this will be required to keep things in working order. Tim

[timsrv]

I blew out the rear main oil seal in my 86 van (back-up work van) so I pulled an 87 out of the bushes (back-up to my back-up). Since it had been sitting so long I started by draining the old gas out and testing the fuel system. Well darn it, looks like the fuel pump has failed. That's funny because same exact thing had happened to the 86 when I drug it out last year (it had sat for 13 years). So I dropped the tank & pulled the pump. I had reworked the sender just before I parked it so I know it was clean then, well it sure isn't clean now. I was taught to park rigs with full tanks when long term storage is expected. Yes, the gas will go bad after a few years, but it keeps the air and moisture away from the metal parts and protects them from corrosion. Well evidently that's not true anymore. Check out the condition of things (worst of it was submerged under the gas). I'm not sure why, but I think changes to the fuel market must be causing gas to become corrosive when it sits for long periods. I've been resurrecting dead vehicles all my life and have never seen severe corrosion like this on parts submerged in fuel.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3005_zps0e7b1192.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3007_zps4eaf4322.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3003_zpsaad46a65.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3002_zpsdf4ac8d2.jpg

The funny thing is, this is exactly the way my 86 looked when it sat 13 years with the same gas. Next time I store one of these I'll have to fill it with something else.......diesel maybe? The thing is, I never know how long they're going to be stored, so I hate putting something other than gas in there. Maybe I'll just drain and store them dry? Tough call. Suggestions?

I had a lot of trouble with rust clogging my injectors on the 86 (with rust) after it's long sleep, so I decided to clean this tank. I rinsed the big stuff out with water, then put about 20 rocks inside (ranging from the size of grapes to the size of ping pong balls). My son & I shook the crap out of it (to break up the rust) and I washed it out again. Next I put the rocks back in along with about a cup of phosphoric acid thinned with isopropanol (eats rust). We shook the crap out of it again and left it for the night. Hopefully the acid will take out more rust during the night. In the morning we'll shake it again, remove rocks, rinse, and I'll take some more pics. To be continued. Tim

[timsrv]

The funny thing is, this is exactly the way my 86 looked when it sat 13 years with the same gas. Next time I store one of these I'll have to fill it with something else.......diesel maybe? The thing is, I never know how long they're going to be stored, so I hate putting something other than gas in there. Maybe I'll just drain and store them dry? Tough call. Suggestions?

Been doing research on the web & I think I just answered my own question. Seems that ethanol accelerates corrosion (I always avoided that until it became standard........about 15 years ago). The answer is to use an additive with corrosion inhibitors. Looks like this is a good one: http://www.amazon.com/STA-BIL-22240-Marine-Fuel-Stabilizer/dp/B001CAW2DK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395559119&sr=8-1&keywords=marine+formula+sta-bil

[coronan]

Yeah, I've heard that ethanol attracts water and is prone to corrosion. I think all the newer cars are built for it by using more plastic parts.
It's like when they took silver out of diesel. We had to start using lubricity additive to not kill injection pumps.
What is the life expectancy of stabil?

[timsrv]

What is the life expectancy of stabil?

I'm not sure, but next time I park something it's getting a dose. I expect to drain gas on anything that sits over 5 years, but didn't expect to see this degree of corrosion. Now I'm worried about my other vans that have been sitting. I hope I don't have to go through this again, but I'm sure I will. Tim

[timsrv]

Got it all done and was driving the van. Here's some pics of tank and the pump bracket after the acid treatment..........and lots & lots of flushing/rinsing:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3015_zpsb0b848db.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3036_zpsd1ec98b4.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3039_zpsc27bf533.jpg

[djshimon]

How long had that van sat with gas?
Is there an easy way to drain the gas? I'm attempting to replace my fuel pump but I cannot get the gas out of the tank with a siphon. I see a drain plug but wonder what seal I'll have to replace when I do that.

[gushaman]

dont remember a seal at the drain bung, but it has been a bunch of years

[timsrv]

This one had sat for 10 years. There's a rubber gasket attached to the drain bung. On most of these the bung has a recessed 3/8" square drive hole (a 3/8" ratchet or breaker bar works perfect here). On others I've seen a 17 mm hex plug. I've pulled these drain plugs lots of times and I've never messed up the original rubber gasket. I've always been able to just screw it back in and have it seal (knock on wood).

After putting this tank back in my 87 I drove it and found it had more problems than I wanted to deal with, so I pulled the tank back out along with the engine. I'm going to put the engine & tank in my 86.

Update: Here's a thread where I'm documenting this job: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?2041-Blew-the-rear-main-oil-seal!-Engine-Overhaul

[djshimon]

Thanks. I just removed the bung, gas, and put it back and no leaks. :yes:

[timsrv]

I thought cleaning the tank would be enough, but the screens on my injectors got clogged AGAIN after only 5k miles. I did just put new injectors in when I cleaned this tank (actually rebuilt ones from Dr Injector) & I did notice the screens they used have less surface area and a finer mesh than the originals, but still figured the factory fuel filter set-up would be good enough to protect them (I figured wrong). These injector screens also have plastic in them (which I don't like). Considering what a PITA it is to remove and clean injectors, I went ahead and purchased new stainless steel injector screens (https://www.amazon.com/HiSport-Injector-Compatible-injector-Universal/dp/B097PJ16CY/ref=asc_df_B097PJ16CY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693366125648&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=69241016677038836&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033612&hvtargid=pla-2186509135569&psc=1&mcid=bd3859028374324ab12762e849ef0998) for my injectors (but I'm hoping I won't need them). Today I made a mod that will hopefully avert the need to pull injectors again. I removed the factory style fuel filter and replaced it with a hot-rod style canister type (https://www.amazon.com/Aeromotive-12317-Canister-10-Micron-Bright-Dip/dp/B003TPERK2/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_1/137-2694942-9492644?pd_rd_w=Ykm7G&content-id=amzn1.sym.3858a394-39a9-4946-90e6-86a3153d2546&pf_rd_p=3858a394-39a9-4946-90e6-86a3153d2546&pf_rd_r=HMKVXHJDKQPCF0TK0B63&pd_rd_wg=Z0cDZ&pd_rd_r=da93fb69-a58b-4938-8905-5c55cc2329b4&pd_rd_i=B003TPERK2&psc=1). It has a replaceable pleated paper 10 micron cartridge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFSKXM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) inside. I'm looking forward to easy future filter replacements (and cheap too).

The big challenge here was finding a suitable place to put this that would also allow access for easy changing of cartridges. After looking around there was only one place (under the power steering reservoir) so I put it there. Here are some pics of the mod.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/canisterfuelfilter_zpsf86d5209.jpg (http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/12308/10002/-1) http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/cartridgeforcanisterfuelfilter_zpsac550284.jpg (http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/12608/10002/-1)

I took a piece of 3/16" X 1" steel, drilled holes to match the holes in the reservoir bracket, then welded the filter bracket to it. Here it is after a coat of paint.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3421_zpsd4719168.jpg

New bracket will fit behind the power steering reservoir bracket like this.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3423_zpsa2e445ef.jpg

Next step is to get the old filter & hose out of there. Good riddance!
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3440_zps05b93c8f.jpg

I used a clean mason jar to catch drips from the inlet hose of the old filter :doh:. No gas left to see what might come out the the other side.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3442_zps2eefbab0.jpg

I dig through my scrounge bucket and find some bolts slightly longer than original bracket bolts & install filter bracket behind PS reservoir bracket.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3425_zps1186e5c0.jpg

Here's some close-ups.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3429_zpsdc3859bd.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3428_zps45044d41.jpg

I cut the banjo fitting off the 8mm metal gas line. Fortunately 8mm is almost identical in size to 5/16" diameter tube. I'm able to use a brass adapter that goes from 5/16" compression to 1/8" FPT (http://www.amazon.com/EATON-Weatherhead-Female-Connector-CA360/dp/B008I5BNXW/ref=sr_1_52?ie=UTF8&qid=1410691377&sr=8-52&keywords=5%2F16%22+compression+brass). If Amazon is out of stock, Napa also has these HERE (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/WH_66X5). Attached to that is a 5/16" push-on hose end X 1/8" MPT (http://www.amazon.com/EATON-Weatherhead-10005B-102-Rigid-Fitting/dp/B008I5MTW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410691745&sr=8-1&keywords=10005b-102) or https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/WH_10005B102. The hose is Barricade MPI 225 psi 5/16" ID fuel line (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBHH357A) (can't be too careful when it comes to fuel).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3430_zps5d98e6a9.jpg

On the filter side of this hose I use a 3/8" X 1/8" NPT brass bushing (https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Solid-Reducer-Bushing-Threaded/dp/B09VNXS67G/ref=sr_1_14?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.fBRvU_o9DURkgL9gfWEtH VNsWT88XpOoIuPtbd0i6MyHVPny7Et-akbVaSy-Q4kEompmBPVGK9ujnkkjuZtASiBbvxoQLAJ7C3PXI9TZ7II2ch Z27rU4CNO_y5Nd-5qIB6gQixradXKGKlkZL0sq5PBPsgo5PIfgmNNPEo-wkf-9Hb6S32cCs0ZWPSyVBv1CLi7vcV64zpELFAXycJOiVC8wdeUVw yDod6RAglB4Xxw.AZKD_deJD5yB7Z49l9N6YCIVMKfAt2v_FUk-jDDE3gE&dib_tag=se&keywords=3%2F8%2Bx%2B1%2F8%2Bbushing&qid=1733181843&sr=8-14&th=1) and another push-on hose end (http://www.amazon.com/EATON-Weatherhead-10005B-102-Rigid-Fitting/dp/B008I5MTW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410691745&sr=8-1&keywords=10005b-102).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3433_zpsd7cc7363.jpg

I cut the M14 X 1.5 swivel fitting off the 8mm steel line and use a 5/16" compression X 1/8" MPT brass adapter (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BO4XCQ/ref=biss_dp_t_asn), then a 1/8" FPT brass elbow (http://www.amazon.com/Female-Degree-Elbow-Shape-Fitting/dp/B0081STPSG/ref=sr_1_259?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1410694061&sr=1-259&keywords=1%2F8+female+elbow) followed by another push-on hose end (http://www.amazon.com/EATON-Weatherhead-10005B-102-Rigid-Fitting/dp/B008I5MTW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410691745&sr=8-1&keywords=10005b-102). For the other end of this hose (filter side, scroll up to see) I use a 3/8" X 1/4" brass bushing (http://www.amazon.com/Weatherhead-3220X6X4-Fitting-Bushing-Female/dp/B00BKFE8NO/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1410694466&sr=1-1&keywords=3220+x+6+x+4), a 1/4" MPT X 5/16" MFL brass elbow (http://www.amazon.com/Eaton-Weatherhead-49X5X4-Brass-Degree/dp/B00BKFK3NI/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1410694627&sr=1-1&keywords=49+x+5+elbow) and a 5/16" swivel hose end (http://www.amazon.com/Weatherhead-10005B-605-Female-Swivel-Fitting/dp/B008I5E1MC/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1410695000&sr=1-1&keywords=10005b-605).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3434_zpscb0ba172.jpg

And here's the best part. With a 1" socket, extension, and ratchet I can remove the bowl from underneath (without jacking) and change the paper cartridge!
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3435_zps9e721003.jpg

I did a 5 minute leak test & all is fine. With any luck this thing won't clog up right away. I got a couple extra paper cartridges but don't plan on changing them until I hit 10k miles or they clog up. I'll report back with how it works. Tim

[coronan]

What micron do you think the stock filter was?

What is your source and part number for the aftermarket filter???

[timsrv]

What micron do you think the stock filter was?

I have no idea, and nobody else seems to either. It also bugs me not being able to see inside of it. In trying to understand my problem I'm envisioning a gap in the pleats or something. I doubt that's the case, but much prefer to see the business end of what I'm installing, especially after having this same issue 4 times over the past 20k miles (dealt with it 3 times before cleaning & installing this tank). Maybe I'll cut open this old filter just for fun. Of all the filter questions I've been asking, this AM filter is the only one with micron info available. Nobody can tell me what micron the injector screens are either (new or old)..........but you'd think the stock filter should have a smaller micron size than the injector screens............right?


What is your source and part number for the aftermarket filter???

You can get this off Amazon hot-rod style canister type (https://www.amazon.com/Aeromotive-12317-Canister-10-Micron-Bright-Dip/dp/B003TPERK2/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_1/137-2694942-9492644?pd_rd_w=Ykm7G&content-id=amzn1.sym.3858a394-39a9-4946-90e6-86a3153d2546&pf_rd_p=3858a394-39a9-4946-90e6-86a3153d2546&pf_rd_r=HMKVXHJDKQPCF0TK0B63&pd_rd_wg=Z0cDZ&pd_rd_r=da93fb69-a58b-4938-8905-5c55cc2329b4&pd_rd_i=B003TPERK2&psc=1). It has a replaceable pleated paper 10 micron cartridge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFSKXM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) inside.. Jegs also sells replacement paper cartridges Aeromotive #027-12608 (http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/12608/10002/-1). There's links hidden in my text that will take you right to the source. Anywhere you see blue text just click and it will take you there. Tim

[coronan]

Yeah, thats the problem with OEM. Its good enough but how good was, good enough. Diesel guys filter down to 5 or even 2 micron. But diesel is a totally different animal.

I'd be curious to see what was plugging the screens.


You might be able to figure out the micron rating with a wire gauge.
http://www.filterbag.com/U-S-Mesh-vs-Micron-21.html



I have had success back flushing my injectors. I hook em up to a pressure bottle filled with injector cleaner and open the solenoid. Its my first stage when cleaning and checking spray pattern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mnA0cnXckg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp-ECEpN52k

[timsrv]

Yeah, I have no problem flushing them out (once they're out). As you know, the problem is getting them out. No big deal 1 or 2 times, but gets old fast when you're doing it every 4 or 5 months :wall: :(:.

[timsrv]

Okay, so curiosity got the better of me & I opened up the factory style filter. Based on what I found I'm a bit worried now the new one won't be adequate. For the record this isn't Toyota but it's Wix Premium (considered to be top notch). It's actually an impressive design and has a ton of surface area (way, way more than the one I just installed).

So basically it's 2 long strips of filter media glued together on 3 sides. The fuel enters this "paper envelope" on the open side, passes through the paper walls, then on to the outlet. It's a long envelope (about 5' long & 3" tall) all rolled up with the open end facing the fuel inlet port. There's another ring of glue on the inlet side (where the rolled envelope overlaps) preventing unfiltered fuel from slipping between the layers. Not sure about micron size of the pores, but the real advantage here is free flow and massive surface area (can hold a lot of crap). And that's exactly what mine had in it.........A whole lot of crap! (mostly rust particles). Of course it wasn't catching all the crap (as evidenced by the silty stuff in the outlet tube). The obvious problem with this type filter would be assembly errors. And that's a lot more likely with this design as this one is dependent on accurate and equal amounts of glue used on the seams. If there are any breaches in these seams (and these are significant) then particles can pass. After close inspection it appears there are a few spots where they got sloppy with the glue (too much), and others spots where there wasn't enough.

It's hard to believe there's still this much crap in my fuel system. I spent some serious time and effort getting this tank clean (check the pics). I suspect some (perhaps most) of it was inside my fuel lines, but these looked pretty clean when I cut and adapted them. So now I have to worry about restricted fuel flow and clogging. Van will be back in service tomorrow so I'll know right away if it's too restrictive. Clogging is another issue, but I'd be happy with 5k miles per cartridge (keeping my fingers crossed). Perhaps a better solution would have been to leave the factory filter as a pre-filter then running it through the AM one. I figured that would likely be too restrictive so I went with just the one. Here's the pics:

Everything enters here on this end.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3443_zpsae5e087e.jpg

Here's the outlet side (glued bottom of envelope). Note the silty rust junk in the outlet tube.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3444_zps80e09dfe.jpg

Once it exits the envelope it moves to the top and passes through a plastic disc with holes.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3446_zps228f9282.jpg

This disc has stand-offs on it which allow fuel to pass to the outlet tube (big hole in the middle).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3449_zpsa17d10eb.jpg

I peeled the paper envelope open from the inside to show the crap it caught. There's probably 2 or 3 teaspoons full of "cinnamon" trapped in here. All this in only 5k miles. Hard to imagine my new cartridge catching this much stuff before plugging up. This was the 1st filter since the cleaning of the tank, so hopefully this is the bulk of the leftovers (keeping my fingers crossed).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3450_zps50b7d8e9.jpg

[mahleek87]

Now Im wondering how the stock toyota fuel filter compares to this wix premium that you took apart...

[timsrv]

Probably about the same. Perhaps assembled with more care??? I have a used Toyota filter I could take apart, but not too motivated right now (working some long hrs). Good news though, my new filter has been working awesome (no starvation or injector issues) and it's made it over 500 miles so far. Tim

[timsrv]

Hit almost 1k miles & filter still flowing good enough to keep up with my lead foot. Got my injectors back with my Bosch stainless screens. Hopefully I won't need to install these any time soon, but at least I have them "just in case". Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3453_zpsdd98d63a.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3563_zps6557f57c.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3565_zps70a214e8.jpg

[ratatouille]

Tim curious how thing have ran since you posted last?... Cheers..

[timsrv]

Thanks for asking. My last post regarding this subject was about 7k miles ago. I was a bit worried the new filter would be restrictive, so I installed a fuel pressure gauge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002DTCSTC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) on the output side of it so I could monitor pressure. Here's where I mounted the sending unit:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3650_zps23ce9b55.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3643_zps6c766a24.jpg

I found a neat little mounting pod (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00P9DX1ZO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) for the gauge head and mounted it on the right of the instrument hood:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3656_zps33890680.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3654_zps8a015d2b.jpg

I used a 6 position quick disconnect for the wire harness so I can still easily remove and reinstall the cluster hood. While I had things apart I also installed an engine coolant temperature gauge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041QMS0E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) on the dash pad.

So the good news is there was no fuel starvation issues (had constant good pressure on the output side of the filter). Even when pushing the van hard (maximum output on long hills) fuel pressure stays in the 40psi range. I thought about running the filter until I started to see pressure drop, but due to past contamination issues I decided to replace it at 5k miles (at least this time). The filter looks clean inside and out, but there was debris/sediments in the canister housing. Here's a mason jar that I dumped the fuel canister into:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3622_zpsb6d60f49.jpg

And here are some pics of the used filter element:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3628_zpsef35cc22.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3630_zps0b1c30a5.jpg

I was happy to see no sediments inside the filter (last picture) as this is the filtered (output) side. Other evidence that it's doing it's job is the fact my injectors have not clogged up in the last 7k miles (a new record!). Sadly though my fuel pump is not protected by the new filter and the check valve on that failed a couple weeks ago. When I pulled the tank to replace it (last weekend) I noticed new sediments inside (a lot of them). These are very fine sandy/silty sediments that mostly built up in the pump chamber of the tank. This time I dried the tank by hooking it up to my shop vac for a few hrs to evaporate the residual gas, then simply vacuumed it out using various extensions and flexible hoses I rigged up to the vacuum cleaner. I'm thinking these sediments came from the inside of the metal fuel lines, and hopefully this is the worst of it. The new pump is installed and working well. Van is running awesome and starts on 1st crank now. Tim


Update 12/20/18: #3 injector clogged again (yes, I had to remove injectors and clean them again) :wall:. But, it made it 3 years/50k miles this time (prior to filter mod it was 3 - 4 months/5k miles). Because it made it 10X longer, I consider this mod a success. I don't believe the filter element has ever clogged (at least not completely) as output pressure has remained constant since installation of the fuel pressure gauge. That's pretty good considering I ran the last filter element for over 2½ years/45k miles)

I think it's possible I could have avoided (or at least prolonged) repeat injector problems had I changed filter elements on a more regular basis. Since the last episode I've begun replacing that filter element every 10k miles, but it's only been about 15k miles since then, so it will be at least 2 - 3 years before I hit the 50k mark again.

As you can see in a previous in post (this thread) the tank was cleaned thoroughly. The 1st clogging after that cleaning (5k miles) I attributed to rogue particles left over in the tank. After the next 3 episodes (all at ~5k mile intervals) I started thinking there to be a hard caked-on residue inside my fuel lines. Each few hundred miles of constant flow likely dissolves and releases more particles into the system. There is still ~3 feet of old steel line after the filter, and that could account for the last clogging. Eventually I'm hoping this will clear itself up, but so far it's still been an issue (although much less after the filter mod). Tim

[TheCarolinian]

Rawb, sorry but until now I somehow missed your post. I'm sure you've already figured it out but I wanted to reply so the "next guy" could benefit.

The fuel filter is on the passenger side of the engine between the distributor and the oil filter (see arrow in picture below):
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT pics/Engine/IMG_5030-1.jpg

This is a big filter so unless you have a contaminated fuel system (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working/page2) it should only need to be replaced at 60,000 mile intervals. To access and replace you must 1st remove the passenger side seat, center console and engine access panel. Before you remove any lines, loosen the fuel cap enough to release pressure from the system. When pressure is gone use a 6 point 17mm socket on the top banjo bolt and remove. After that's off use a 12mm socket with an extension to remove the 2 bolts holding the bracket to the block. The lower fuel line is flexible, so once the bracket bolts are removed the filter can be maneuvered to a position favorable to access the lower fitting. Again, a 6 point 17mm socket will fit the banjo bolt, but since the filter is loose you'll also need a 19mm open end wrench to back things up (counter torque). Tim

I just wanted to say thank you Tim.I'm not a mechanic and without the valuable information on this site I would have been so damned lost I might have just sold the van and been done with it.
I got my 86 Toyota cargo van on the road.My friend is a mechanic and after a brief look over he advised me to just drive it on short trips to shake things up and see what happens.I had been doing that for three days just puttering around and having a blast mind you,when after 175 miles I went to accelerate from a stop sign and she just bogged down hard.No stall but you could tell it was starved for fuel or air.I feathered the pedal and got her home just fine but I knew I had a problem.I had just recently replaced the fuel pump and the tank was horrible.On the advice of a mechanic I cleaned it thoroughly with white vinegar several times after removing the huge amount of rust that was in it,even with 6 gal. fuel.
Van ran fine after thatbut I knew I should replace the filter.Whether it's after market or not the van does have an inline filter on drivers side underneath it.I thought that that was the only filter I had to replace but after searching TVT forums I found out where the real filter was.So thank you very much.
I followed the procedure to replace step by step,no problems until I had to remove the filter.I think someone had impact ratcheted those banjo bolts.Anyway,I knew I was going to have a problem with the fuel line to the rail because it was bent at almost 90% and constricted a bit.Sure enough,when I replaced the filter I have a pinhole leak on the line at the top...
My question is,"would I be better off having a custom line built,maybe braided?"I'd really like some feedback on this.Thank you very much!



http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gtfminus/IMG_20150920_161146779_zpsrlsuppkl.jpg http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gtfminus/IMG_20150920_161155033_zpswmacfaye.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gtfminus/IMG_20150920_171057771_zpsnkfnfhjx.jpghttp://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gtfminus/IMG_20150920_171116318_zpsherzoskd.jpg

The splatter you see is PB Blaster,I got a bit messy with it because I didn't have the nozzle.

[timsrv]

The factory filter is worthless anyhow. After my tank was contaminated I kept clogging injectors (factory filter was not effective). I finally solved the issue with an aftermarket filter installation. Your crimped line will not matter, just cut it off at the crimp and splice it like I did here (page 2 this thread).

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/Fuel%20system/IMG_3430_zps5d98e6a9.jpg


As for the 2nd filter, that does not belong. There is only the sock in the tank and the filter shown in your picture above. I would be concerned of anything down stream of this due to the pressure and heat in this area. If you leave it there, at the very least make sure it and the fuel line they used is rated for at least 50 psi. Personally I would get rid of it and rely only on the canister type filter I'm using. It completely solved all my contamination issues. I've been running it for over 15k miles now with no issues. Tim

[TheCarolinian]

Understood.Good info Tim,thank you.Let me ask you this though.Is there a way to do a "quick" fix in the meantime?

[timsrv]

With high pressure fuel lines there's really no such thing as a "quick fix". If you want to keep it all stock, then try to find a van in a salvage yard and steal the metal fuel line off of it. This may also be available new from Toyota, but these type parts are getting pretty scarce. It's Toyota part #23801-73010 and will cost you $40 - $50 depending on where you purchase (if it's even still available). Tim

PS: Since this is an uninterrupted steel line all the way to the fuel rail, if there's another filter, then they must have cut the line down stream of here anyhow. I'd get another steel line (new or used) regardless of what else you may decide to do. Tim

[TheCarolinian]

With high pressure fuel lines there's really no such thing as a "quick fix". If you want to keep it all stock, then try to find a van in a salvage yard and steal the metal fuel line off of it. This may also be available new from Toyota, but these type parts are getting pretty scarce. It's Toyota part #23801-73010 and will cost you $40 - $50 depending on where you purchase (if it's even still available). Tim

PS: Since this is an uninterrupted steel line all the way to the fuel rail, if there's another filter, then they must have cut the line down stream of here anyhow. I'd get another steel line (new or used) regardless of what else you may decide to do. Tim

The inline filter is on the underside of van just forward of fuel tank.I'll be removing it if it's uneccessary.
Thank you on that part#,that's exactly what I need.Found it here for right at $42 after shipping costs.
http://www.toyotaonlineparts.com/oe-toyota/2380173010


(http://www.toyotaonlineparts.com/oe-toyota/2380173010)

[timsrv]

Other than the short flexible rubber hose that transitions from the tank to the van, this line should be steel all the way up to the stock filter. If somebody cut and added a filter, depending on how they did it, this could be a safety issue. The fuel system is regulated to around 40 psi, but the pump is capable of much more. In the event of a crimped line or plugged up filter, I would think pressures could approach as much as 100 psi (It's why they use steel lines). To be safe I'd want any permanent solution to be rated for 100 psi or more. It's a shame if they hacked the line, but the good news is it's 8 mm which is almost exactly the same diameter as SAE 5/16". So close in fact that 5/16" brass compression fittings will adapt to this (as shown earlier in this thread) and the high quality rubber fuel line available today will easily withstand this pressure (just be sure to verify it's rated PSI and use the correct push-on barbed fittings). Not all parts stores have adequate selections to make these type repairs, but I've found Napa to have the best inventory. Tim

PS: Good luck on that metal line. Please be sure to let us know if it comes. I can't tell you how many times I've placed an order only to be notified the following business day that it's NLA. Tim

[TheCarolinian]

Other than the short flexible rubber hose that transitions from the tank to the van, this line should be steel all the way up to the stock filter. If somebody cut and added a filter, depending on how they did it, this could be a safety issue. The fuel system is regulated to around 40 psi, but the pump is capable of much more. In the event of a crimped line or plugged up filter, I would think pressures could approach as much as 100 psi (It's why they use steel lines). To be safe I'd want any permanent solution to be rated for 100 psi or more. It's a shame if they hacked the line, but the good news is it's 8 mm which is almost exactly the same diameter as SAE 5/16". So close in fact that 5/16" brass compression fittings will adapt to this (as shown earlier in this thread) and the high quality rubber fuel line available today will easily withstand this pressure (just be sure to verify it's rated PSI and use the correct push-on barbed fittings). Not all parts stores have adequate selections to make these type repairs, but I've found Napa to have the best inventory. Tim

PS: Good luck on that metal line. Please be sure to let us know if it comes. I can't tell you how many times I've placed an order only to be notified the following business day that it's NLA. Tim

Thanks Tim and I'll keep you informed.Really sad to see that P.S.,I hope I they do have it!

[TheCarolinian]

You were right Tim,that line is discontinued and probably not found anywhere aside from salvage.Taking the line to a shop today to see what we can come up with.Will let you know when mission is accomplished.

[timsrv]

Darn it! I hate being right sometimes :(:. It's the banjo fitting that's going to be the bugger. Hopefully they'll have a solution for you. Tim

[TheCarolinian]

Hey Tim,you were so right man.That banjo fitting was a pain in the arse to find.I spent 4 1/2 hours in town at the local parts shops,including Napa and they came up empty.I was about to give up and then I remembered a manufacturing shop that I never would have even considered.After a ton of searching he came out with a banjo fitting the right size with the barbed end.$17 for that fitting and the copper crush washers... Anyway,I went back to Napa and got the high pressure fuel line and the compression fitting for another freaking $20.Got back to the van and installed the quick fix.After running for 15 minutes and then another 10 minutes it hasn't leaked at all.The pics below are before everything is refastened but you get the general idea.I think in the near future I will have the guys at the manufacturing shop make me a brand new line to spec.The guy says he can do it easily so I will see in the next 6 months or so.
Thanks again Tim for all of your input,it is very much appreciated my friend. ;) P.S. I included that last shot to show how I got the clamp crooked.It didn't leak at all but I fixed it after I took the pics.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gtfminus/IMG_20150921_194457996_zpseq0zkvfa.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gtfminus/IMG_20150921_194526503_zpstjmegob5.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gtfminus/IMG_20150921_194512251_zpsbvfxinst.jpg

[gushaman]

I would keep an eye on those screw type hose clamps, they have a tendency to get loose as the hose expands and contracts with temperature changes. I always use napa hose clamps, i get the widest ones that will fit. A nice fix, i wonder if someone previously bent the steel line when changing the filter, or maybe it rusted oit and thats why they changed the line type.

O nice fix tho. I am impressed. For future refernce you can find these typenof fittings at hydraulic hose shops.

[timsrv]

:whs: If you're using the type of fittings that require clamps, you should be using the proper ones. Size of clamp will vary slightly depending on the hose & barb diameter, but this is the type you want: http://www.amazon.com/AAS-Fuel-Injection-Clamps-FI6/dp/B0040CU0HM/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1442889851&sr=8-4&keywords=fuel+injection+hose+clamps. I would also want a slight bulge on the end of the metal line to keep the rubber from sliding off. A "bulge" or "barb" can be added by putting a slight flare on the end with a standard flaring tool.

The kind of hose clamps you're using are old school from the days when automotive fuel pressures were 5 - 7 psi. Today's fuel injection systems run 10 times the pressure and can pump a lot of fuel in a short time. Things can get scary very quickly if a hose pops off. Tim

[TheCarolinian]

Thanks Gushaman and Tim!Really appreciate the feedback as I'm not a mechanic.I'm not scared to do the research and get my hands dirty though.
I'll replace those clamps tomorrow for sure! :)

P.S. I could only buy the high pressure fuel line by the foot so when I get the new clamps I'll cut another length of hose.

[TheCarolinian]

Forgot to take pics today until after I had already put the van back together.Got the clamps though and tested thoroughly,works perfect.In the near future I'll go with your more permanent fix Tim with the after market filter so hopefully I won't have this problem again.Thanks for your time and for everything you do with this site.It is invaluable! :)

[AR74]

Hey guys , I have a 89 4WD Auto , I dropped the tank and found a crap load of rust in it and it seems to be pitted up pretty good inside . I thought about cleaning it but honestly don't think it will do any good . I have a clean tank from a 2WD 5speed and they look identical but tried putting it in last night and it seemed to be snug but it was dark so I might not have slid it in right .....? Can you still find new tanks for the 4WD Vans ?

[timsrv]

From what I understand, 4wd tanks will fit okay on 2wd's but 2wd tanks don't fit well on 4wds. The 4wd tank has a relieved area formed into it so it won't interfere with the transfer case. Since the 2wd tanks are not relieved, there will likely be an interference issue if you put one on a 4wd. Since you got it up there, I'd take a good look to see where (if anywhere) it's hitting. Depending on the spot you might be able to mark it, take it back down, and strategically put a dent in it???

The Toyota part number for the tank you need is 77001-28300. If it's available, it's MSRP is around $600, but a brief search revealed it may be available on some discount sites for as low as $430 (which to me means NLA). Tanks can get pretty nasty inside, but IMO they can be cleaned and put back into service. Take a look at the one on page 2 of this thread. After cleaning I have put about 25k miles on it. If you go this route, I would also recommend an aftermarket filter set-up like I documented here on this thread.

There's also products like POR-15 (http://www.por15.com/POR-15-Fuel-Tank-Sealer_p_64.html) that can work well in some instances. I've used this on old tractors with small simple tanks (with good results), but never on larger modern tanks with baffles, flappers and/or hard to reach areas..........not sure I would recommend that here. Tim

[AR74]

From what I understand, 4wd tanks will fit okay on 2wd's but 2wd tanks don't fit well on 4wds. The 4wd tank has a relieved area formed into it so it won't interfere with the transfer case. Since the 2wd tanks are not relieved, there will likely be an interference issue if you put one on a 4wd. Since you got it up there, I'd take a good look to see where (if anywhere) it's hitting. Depending on the spot you might be able to mark it, take it back down, and strategically put a dent in it???

The Toyota part number for the tank you need is 77001-28300. If it's available, it's MSRP is around $600, but a brief search revealed it may be available on some discount sites for as low as $430 (which to me means NLA). Tanks can get pretty nasty inside, but IMO they can be cleaned and put back into service. Take a look at the one on page 2 of this thread. After cleaning I have put about 25k miles on it. If you go this route, I would also recommend an aftermarket filter set-up like I documented here on this thread.

There's also products like POR-15 (http://www.por15.com/POR-15-Fuel-Tank-Sealer_p_64.html) that can work well in some instances. I've used this on old tractors with small simple tanks (with good results), but never on larger modern tanks with baffles, flappers and/or hard to reach areas..........not sure I would recommend that here. Tim

Lk here's the deal , I got the 2wd tank in but it was too snug on the T-case so that was a no go . I ended up taking my 4wd tank to a radiator shop owned by a family friend , he said he could clean it but to save me some $$$ he told me how they do it and have done it for years . Pour 3 bottles of 100% Lye Grandules into tank fill will water , seal it up and leave in the sun for 2-3 days , pour it out , take a pressure washer and spray the inside really well , fill with enough gas to rinse it out and install it back on the vehicle and fill it to full , he said try and keep the tank as full as possible so condensation doesn't set in . Also take extreme caution to not get any Lye water on bare skin because it will eat flesh to the bone . I did exactly what he recommended and my tank came out clean as new inside !!!!!

[timsrv]

Awesome! Got any pics? I would like to know how it compares to my tank (after I cleaned it page 2 of this thread). If it's clean/shiny metal, then it sounds like it came out better than mine. When you say 3 bottles, how big were the bottles and where did you get them? I have a "van bone yard" here and have a feeling I'll eventually be doing this again. Tim

[AR74]

Awesome! Got any pics? I would like to know how it compares to my tank (after I cleaned it page 2 of this thread). If it's clean/shiny metal, then it sounds like it came out better than mine. When you say 3 bottles, how big were the bottles and where did you get them? I have a "van bone yard" here and have a feeling I'll eventually be doing this again. Tim Sorry I did not get any pics , I know I should have !!! I believe the granule bottles only come in one size . You can find them at most Hardware Stores , I tried Lowes but they did not have any so your best bet would be
A small local hardware store . http://www.idealtruevalue.com/store/p/109953-LB-Rooto-No-4-Household-Drain-Opener-100-Lye.aspx?feed=Froogle&gclid=CIr3zsaK68sCFQsPaQodN7AHxw .

[timsrv]

That's very possibly a better way than mine. It's cheaper than the acid I used, and sounds like a lot less effort. I think I'll pick up a few bottles so I'll be ready for the next time I wake up an old van. Tim


I ended up taking my 4wd tank to a radiator shop owned by a family friend.....................

That guy sounds honest. Perhaps you should talk to him regarding your radiator issues HERE (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?3667-Radiator-For-5-speed-2WD)

[AR74]

That's very possibly a better way than mine. It's cheaper than the acid I used, and sounds like a lot less effort. I think I'll pick up a few bottles so I'll be ready for the next time I wake up an old van. Tim



That guy sounds honest. Perhaps you should talk to him regarding your radiator issues HERE (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?3667-Radiator-For-5-speed-2WD)
Yeah that's already been done , I just had him clean and pressure test for now and maybe more later .

[Van Allen]

Anyone ever cut an access hole for getting to fuel pump, etc.? I just dropped the tank on my van ("Red Stripe") for the second time and I'm getting pretty tired of it. Gonna have the tank cleaned this time. Still trying to decide whether to put in a cheap or expensive pump…there is quite a range out there. Any suggestions?

[pinkgrips236]

Definitely interested in this option.

I've often thought about cutting an access hatch for the sender unit and pump. I already have a bunch of other holes in the van, so why not a few more?

I think I'd just be worried about cutting it while the tank was still in place.

[Van Allen]

Definitely interested in this option.

I've often thought about cutting an access hatch for the sender unit and pump. I already have a bunch of other holes in the van, so why not a few more?

I think I'd just be worried about cutting it while the tank was still in place.

My tank is off now, so the timing would be perfect :)>:
I recently cut the Hose Of Death hatch on "Red Stripe" and my other Van and any future Vans will definitely get that treatment!:dance2:

[timsrv]

I've had a few tanks that were a bit hard to get out rusty nuts, stuck lines, etc, but when I remove these I clean up threads, apply anti seize compound, blow all the dust and road debris out etc. After that removing that same tank later is never an issue. Aside from the hassle of draining and/or dealing with damaged fasteners, I can typically drop one of these tanks inside 1/2 hr.

As for the pump, a while back I took a chance on an aftermarket fuel pump on eBay. It cost me around $40. It fit well and looked good (pics page 2 of this thread). It's been performing flawlessly over the past 35k miles. One curious thing I noticed is the application list for this pump is huge. It fits around 800 different makes, models & trim levels & is also used with diesel engines. Here's a link to the pump: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Fuel-Pump-US-MOTOR-WORKS-USEP8023-/171796238108?hash=item27ffda8f1c:g:-x0AAOSwDNdVn8TT&vxp=mtr

[Van Allen]

Tim, thank you for the info on the fuel pump, I went ahead and bought one :thmbup:
Almost bought 2, but I'm optimistic that my radiator shop will do a good job cleaning the tank and I won't need another pump anytime soon :yes: plus, I do have a $20 cheapie from Rock Auto that I think I'll keep in my emergency kit:silvervan:
(The pump sock filter was loaded with fine rust particles).

As for the access panel… Do you see any downside? I get that dropping the tank isn't that big a deal and can be an opportunity for the maintenance you describe. I might not even be considering the access hatch if it weren't for the fact that it rained so hard both times that I've dropped this tank, that even beneath the van there was no respite from the rain. This time, I was on a sloped street lying in a gully-washer:bdmd:
(I love these emoticons)

[timsrv]

I don't know. To get easy access you'd need the hole to be kind of big (I'm thinking ~1 sq ft). Then, depending on what you use to cut it with, there's the potential of damaging the tank, hoses, or wires (unless you remove the tank 1st). You'd also need to map things out in advance to ensure there's no structure where you cut. Assuming there's no extra support there, you should be okay from a structural stand-point, but unless you patch and seal it well there could be concerns of exhaust gas getting inside the van. Then there's the extremely unlikely event of being t-boned and having the tank rupture. That sheet metal you're cutting through is an extra barrier between you and the gasoline, one that you wouldn't want compromised in such an event.

Since it's easy enough to simply drop the tank, I would think cutting/patching a hole through the floor would actually be harder.......especially if you damage something else in the process. BTW, if you cut the hole with the tank installed, I wouldn't recommend using a cutting torch :weld: :yikes: :pissed: :LOL2:. Tim

[Van Allen]

HaHa, I've been out-emoticonned by the master! :wrthy:

This morning I am leaning away from cutting the hole, but if I do it, it will be soon, before I re-install the tank. I'll try to post some pics if it actually happens.

Thanks for all the good advice Tim!

[isaiah44]

The VDO sender does fit. but the bolt pattern has a slightly larger bolt center. Slight grinding will be required. I think I'll install it and start looking for a gauge.
I know it's been a while, but how did the aftermarket fuel sender work out? I'm in need of one now and may have to go this route since the Toyota part is NLA.

[coronan]

It works but the sweep is backwards. E light still comes on with 50mi left.
Some day I will put in a matching gauge. But it has been getting me by for several years.
These old vans have personality, and this is just one of those things.

[timsrv]

It works but the sweep is backwards.........


:LOLabv: Well that would certainly add personality :LOLabv:

[isaiah44]

It works but the sweep is backwards. E light still comes on with 50mi left.
Some day I will put in a matching gauge. But it has been getting me by for several years.
These old vans have personality, and this is just one of those things.

Forgive my ignorance.... What does that mean, that the sweep is backwards? Does it need to be modified to fit? Does it read true for the rest of the tank (other than the last 50 miles)? Thanks!

[Chowfunstudios]

Hey Everyone,

The fuel senders are rebuildable. I actually just had tristarr radiator in New York rebuild mine and now it works accurately past the 1/4 mark. Now I just have to get the van running to see if the fix will last.

Will update....

-Marvin

[LightBlueToy]

Interesting, how much did that cost?

[Chowfunstudios]

I paid 90 dollars. Rheostat was the issue. I called all around rying to find a solution and nobody local had one.

This might be the best fix by far if it continues to work.

Marvin

[timsrv]

The sender on my 86 van started acting up at around 180k miles. I cleaned the rheostat with a pencil eraser and re-arched the contact arm and that fixed it. I just hit 250k with that van and it's still working good. I've seen the rheostat wires worn through before and I've seen holes worn through the arm. If that's the case, then rebuild would likely be your best bet. Tim

[MyToy]

I also am having fuel gauge issues on my 86LE. Replaced the fuel pump, put the tank back in, and it started. Easy circuit, figure I must have shorted Point 1 to ground because it always shows full with 3 gallon sin the tank. Yanked the connector to the tank and it stays on fuel. Pulled the key out, stays on fuel. Pulled the instrument cluster out, stays on full.
Took the meter out stays on full. Pushed the needle back to E. Emulated the entire circuit on my bench with a 5K pot.
Gauge goes up but does not go down with a very delayed movement. I get that otherwise it will bound like hell. Same problem in my airplane. But in airplanes we don't use the gauge, we use time.
Anybody have this problem? I pulled the sender out and it was all messed up. Intermittent as hell and almost dead on its extremes. I think it is in the gauge but this is a funny duck. If I have to break in to fix I will use it as a sacrificial discovery process.
Any feedback out there would be nice. The tank is on the floor and the van is due to go out for A/C work next week. I hate to put it all back in just to have to take it all out again.

Tim, great pics on the tank dropping. I used a jack under the tank so it is not relying on the filler hose.
I ended up taking the tire off for even easier access. Piece of cake.:dance2:

MyToy

[MyToy]

Just a heads up for all of you with Inductive Fuel Gauges. This phenomena I explained in my previous post was due to a winding in the gauge used to stabilize the field. After dissecting and observing under a microscope, I discovered this winding was open causing the gauge to continually peg to full given even the least bit of DC. As Tim mentioned, the resistance to ground through the sender is about 100 ohms, however when the gauge is in this condition it will peg even at 1000 ohms

Very difficult fix. Best off finding one from salvage.

So mystery is over.

Have a Merry!

[Vanarama]

Hi! Having issue passing the smog check vapor test.
Smog Check mechanic said there is a vapor leak coming from the fuel gauge sending unit. Mechanic covered it with silicone and said there is still a leak from the unit.

Is it possible that these units can leak from anything more than a gasket? If so I'm thinking of repairing the unit (especially since they are not being made anymore) Does anybody have any experience with these? Anyone have one for sale?

Cheers!

6874

[Burntboot]

Vana - Generally speaking they don't leak, but when gaskets fail or rust sets in, anything can happen.
Gooping a product on, is at best a stop gap measure, it needs to be properly diagnosed and corrected.
Until you drop the tank down and find out WHY its leaking we are all just making WAG's

It has been my experience that when something on top of the tank starts to leak, there is no magic goop that will solve the issue, at least for any length of time.
It may need a new sending unit or it could be the tank or it could be vapour lines or maybe something else.

[Jtbechtold]

Quick question I cannot find the answer to. Is the fuel sending unit the same in a 2wd as the 4wd? Thanks

[AD2101]

I found this thread (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working) useful. 4wd and 2wd senders have two different part numbers, the 4wd part number is 83320-80034, and the 2wd one is 83320-29857. As for the actual difference between the two, I'll just quote Tim instead of trying to blatantly plagiarize him:


I would speculate the difference in sending units might be with the float arm (4wd tanks are physically different from 2wd tanks).

These sending units *may* be serviceable, it appears to be the rheostat on these senders that is usually the culprit. I briefly looked into what would go into a fix previously and quickly deemed it was easier to just fill up every 200 miles and use my trip odometer as a poor man's gas gauge instead. :?:

[Jtbechtold]

Yea my trip counters don’t work, but I just keep track of the miles on the odometer. I had no issues driving from Portland to Tucson. I normally go about 250 miles

[Kombi]

This is an outstanding article that takes me from the bottom of my fuel tank to the injectors.
Thank you all.

[Flecker]

These sending units *may* be serviceable, it appears to be the rheostat on these senders that is usually the culprit. I briefly looked into what would go into a fix previously and quickly deemed it was easier to just fill up every 200 miles and use my trip odometer as a poor man's gas gauge instead. :?:


The fix actally wasn't to terrible. After removing mine I was able to see that the armature wasn't even contacting the wound rheostat over a big area. Quick job with some needle nose pliers, reassemble and whala! Working fuel guage again...

I did clean it with some contact cleaner and added a really light coat of di-electric to the rheostat. Either way I had to do something... I had NO fuel gauge OR speedo. Both are fixed now.

[Kombi]

For long term storage find a source of ethanol free gasoline, then add stabilizers and I guess seal the venting as well.

Some Mogas is ethanol free as well.

[Kombi]

MY fuel gauge armature is touching the wound rheostat and I get no reading in the middle, 4 ohms at top and a sometimes reading at bottom. The van has been un used for at least 14 years.
Tried bending the armature and cleaning up the pivot point. still no go. Does putting power to the armature change the equation? I wouldn't think so.

:cnfsd:For the first time in my life I am thrilled that a fuel pump was dead. The dregs in the tank didn't get circulated.

[Flecker]

MY fuel gauge armature is touching the wound rheostat and I get no reading in the middle, 4 ohms at top and a sometimes reading at bottom. The van has been un used for at least 14 years.
Tried bending the armature and cleaning up the pivot point. still no go. Does putting power to the armature change the equation? I wouldn't think so.

:cnfsd:For the first time in my life I am thrilled that a fuel pump was dead. The dregs in the tank didn't get circulated.


Clean that sucker with some contact cleaner and dab some di-electric on the rheostat...

Mine was reading funkish also before that. SMALL adjustments wit the arm!!! you want to feel it rub the coil, but not be sticky! almost like you are rubbing your fingernail softly over it.

Looks like some of your gas may have varnished too at some point... ergo the contact cleaner. It''ll take the varnish off pretty quickly. Follwe that up w/ a good rub from an erser on the end of a pencil and hopefully you are good to go!

One other note here too, and I believe Tim mentioned it- a digital meter is gonna be rough to get readings from. One of the few times the analog comes in handy! So the idea with the digital is to go super slow, stop, super slow, stop... should read lower ohm's as it clims up the "full" side.

:dance2:

[Kombi]

I took the sending unit and screwed it to the edge of a bench, with the coil and armature facing outward. Hooked two leads of the pigtail to an ohm meter. Tried erasure cleaning, no go. Tried 2000 grit sand paper and rinsing with wd 40 elec cleaner. Started getting some readings.Cleaned the armature with the 2000 grit paper. then holding the armature to the coil with light pressure ran it up and down 100 times. Starting to get readings, rinse again, another 100 times, rinse, then 100again. Kept repeating and now get good readings everywhere. Part of might have been corrosion on the float arm bushing, because I believe it is an electrical path.

Then went after the frozen fuel pump. Die Pump wurst verschmutzen mit Dreck. Turn pump upside down. Put in a bunch of WD 40.You can see gear teeth when you look into the pickup after removing the filter. tappy tappy on the sides of the pump with a hammer. With a small awl rock the motor back and forward. More tappy tappy. Rotate pump two full turns forward and backward.Rinse and refill with wd. Powered it with a 2 amp trickle charger on six volts, then twelve, kept adding wd 40. Started it 60 times looking for a flat spot. I will run it in a bucket of atf for an hour tomorrow, if it passes that test, good enough. Better QC than you get from Mao land. Tricks like that will get you home from Mardi gras. Time for a jack's beer.

What is the sensor on the bottom of the float bracket that has one lead going to it? Is that for the low fuel light?

[Flecker]

I took the sending unit and screwed it to the edge of a bench, with the coil and armature facing outward. Hooked two leads of the pigtail to an ohm meter. Tried erasure cleaning, no go. Tried 2000 grit sand paper and rinsing with wd 40 elec cleaner. Started getting some readings.Cleaned the armature with the 2000 grit paper. then holding the armature to the coil with light pressure ran it up and down 100 times. Starting to get readings, rinse again, another 100 times, rinse, then 100again. Kept repeating and now get good readings everywhere. Part of might have been corrosion on the float arm bushing, because I believe it is an electrical path.

Then went after the frozen fuel pump. Die Pump wurst verschmutzen mit Dreck. Turn pump upside down. Put in a bunch of WD 40.You can see gear teeth when you look into the pickup after removing the filter. tappy tappy on the sides of the pump with a hammer. With a small awl rock the motor back and forward. More tappy tappy. Rotate pump two full turns forward and backward.Rinse and refill with wd. Powered it with a 2 amp trickle charger on six volts, then twelve, kept adding wd 40. Started it 60 times looking for a flat spot. I will run it in a bucket of atf for an hour tomorrow, if it passes that test, good enough. Better QC than you get from Mao land. Tricks like that will get you home from Mardi gras. Time for a jack's beer.

What is the sensor on the bottom of the float bracket that has one lead going to it? Is that for the low fuel light?


NICE!!!

And yah, the sensor at the bottom with the single lead is the low fuel light. It has rarely been problematic from my research... sounds like you are all set!

[Kombi]

Is there a value for that sensor. ?

Hastings fuel filters. HAST GF242 has a porosity of 10 micron. Called tech services and they told me.
TIMSRV had bad results with the OEM and went to an aftermarket canister. . To get 10 microns, and a much larger filter area. I had already bought the Hastings, but am jealous of the clean install.

Will install new filter with a barb on it for a supply tube extension. Fill filter with seafoam, and blow the line out with air. Will put a coffee filter zip tied on the tank line extension into a pail to examine what comes out.

Can we find out which aftermarket filters exceed OEM specs? Are there reputable persons importing parts from Japan and elsewhere that are NLA?

[Kombi]

I would like to know how this sensor for low fuel works, and what values it should have. Left it in cleaner overnight and no readings from the wire to ground. The holes in the sensor are open and nothing in it shakes. You can see the pin holes in the bottom, and thy are in the top as well. I can blow thru it.
If someone has one on a bench could they please put a meter on theirs and share?

[Flecker]

I believe it's just an open/ close level circuit.

When the level in the tank is above it, it's closed, and when the level drops below it, it's open. All it controls is the orange light in the dash for low fuel warning.


Works exactly like a tank float in a well pump system.

[VanCo]

The low fuel warning switch is a thermistor. It is inside that case. When it is in gas it is kept cool and the circuit is kept open. The fuel acts as a heat sink. When in open air the thermistor warms up and completes the circuit and the light goes on.

Check this out:

http://www.aeu86.org/forum/Thread-How-to-Repair-low-fuel-warning-sender

[Kombi]

Thank you VANCO. Just ordered a 5 pack for 1.49 each plus $5 shipping. That was some fantastic research you did.:thmbup: You need one , I'll send it to you free, postage paid.

[Kombi]

Went to examine the thermistor. In a cold garage 45F it reads open. Blow on it, or put it under a light It starts when warm at 2000 ohms and goes down to maybe 1600 ohms. You do not have to dunk them to change the temperature. On a referenced article the thermistor was listed as one K. If some one has a unit handy could they ohm theirs out please, and report back. I've ordered 1000 ohm thermistors and can always add in a 1k resistor. I don't have a strong enough electronic background to know if the 1K ohms matters. Looking at the plug it is the top spade connector and the left hand spade connector for ohms. I did not document the temp when the thermistor closed.

[batook]

I'm working on replacing the fuel level sender and the fuel pump on my 88 4WD 5MT van. I pulled a sender and pump from an 88 2WD Auto. After reading this thread, apparently the sender is not the same as what's in my 4WD and the tanks are different.

Has anyone tried a 2WD sender in a 4WD tank (or vice versa)? Are the fuel pumps interchangeable at least?

The 2WD tank at the junkyard is really clean inside and looks to be in great shape. Anyone know if it's possible to rig up a 2WD tank to the 4WD chassis?

If a tank swap isn't possible and the 2WD sender can't be rigged or modified to work in my 4WD tank, I'll give the repair procedure Kombi described above a go.

Thanks, Eric

[grantbgarner]

I have read through most of this thread but maybe I missed someone with this issue. My fuel gauge reads backwards. I think the PO did some work on it but it reads empty when full and vice versa. Thoughts on how to correct?

Thanks in advance.

[Kombi]

Which van and what trim levels and production dates might be helpful..

[grantbgarner]

89 LE 4WD auto. Should be the same fuel gauge as other models, no?

Thx, Grant

[garythe86toyota]

I would like to go this route.

VDO 226-164 - VDO Fuel Tank Sending Units
http://www.jegs.com/i/VDO/918/226-164/10002/-1

I just need to find it locally so it can be returned easily if it doesn't work out.





Did you end up going with the universal fuel level sensor or has anyone found a oem one thats not discontinued?

[timsrv]

I'm working on replacing the fuel level sender and the fuel pump on my 88 4WD 5MT van. I pulled a sender and pump from an 88 2WD Auto. After reading this thread, apparently the sender is not the same as what's in my 4WD and the tanks are different.

Has anyone tried a 2WD sender in a 4WD tank (or vice versa)? Are the fuel pumps interchangeable at least?

The 2WD tank at the junkyard is really clean inside and looks to be in great shape. Anyone know if it's possible to rig up a 2WD tank to the 4WD chassis?

If a tank swap isn't possible and the 2WD sender can't be rigged or modified to work in my 4WD tank, I'll give the repair procedure Kombi described above a go.

Thanks, Eric

Take a look at posts #56 & #57 of this thread regarding tank fit. Although different part numbers, I can't imagine senders being that different. I would recommend comparing and I'd be surprised if you couldn't get a 2wd one to work...........however, I've never tried so I don't know for sure. Tim



I have read through most of this thread but maybe I missed someone with this issue. My fuel gauge reads backwards. I think the PO did some work on it but it reads empty when full and vice versa. Thoughts on how to correct?
Thanks in advance.



Did you end up going with the universal fuel level sensor or has anyone found a oem one thats not discontinued?

Take a look at Post #70 of this thread. If I had to guess, I'd think somebody put a universal sender in your tank. If that's the case, it has to do with the way the rheostat was wound (which end goes to ground and which end goes to gauge). Depending on the sending unit, it "might" be possible to reverse this, but that's a big "if". Tim

[Kombi]

I've requested the ebay seller give me the diameter of the diameter of the circular mounting plate and if they have a unit for the hiace, a popular vehicle in Thailand.
eBay item number:
263368652342 Its a two wire unit.





If we can get a demo out of them would a group buy work?

The unit would include the thermistor. the units they are selling are. two wire units, no thermistor.

[timsrv]

the units they are selling are. two wire units, no thermistor.


If the AM rheostat has 2 wires (both coming to the outside of the tank), then you would wire one wire to ground and the other to the harness. If it reads backwards, all you would need to do is reverse the wires.

[MyToy]

Tim:
FYI

Now with my third time with rust in injector #3 I started the filter conversion. However I did find something that my interest you. I found this direct replacement from Purolator. It was relatively inexpensive. So I figured it was just another filter. So I contacted Purolator and they were very helpful and routed me to their engineering department. They confirmed that the mesh size of the filter material was in fact 10 microns. The down side of course is the task of replacing every 10K miles. I will ponder over this for a while.

[MyToy]

Tim:

Here is where you can see it.

https://www.amazon.com/Purolator-F53157-Fuel-Filter/dp/B000C6MM0I

[Kombi]

Tim:

Here is where you can see it.

https://www.amazon.com/Purolator-F53157-Fuel-Filter/dp/B000C6MM0I

It is possible that your fuel line corrosion and contamination problem is past the fuel filter. You mentioned the #3 injector has repeatedly clogged.
Have you considered working back from #3 injector to the fuel filter?
Has the line between the filter and the fuel pipe been cleaned, along with the fuel pipe?

[timsrv]

Tim:

Here is where you can see it.

https://www.amazon.com/Purolator-F53157-Fuel-Filter/dp/B000C6MM0I

The filter media may be 10 microns, but IMO this type filter is more prone to assembly errors. The overall filtering ability is only as good as the biggest hole, and there's no way to inspect it without destruction. The other advantage to the canister type is there is an open area for sediments to "fall-out" while the fuel is flowing up hill to the pleated filter (higher up).


It is possible that your fuel line corrosion and contamination problem is past the fuel filter. You mentioned the #3 injector has repeatedly clogged.
Have you considered working back from #3 injector to the fuel filter?
Has the line between the filter and the fuel pipe been cleaned, along with the fuel pipe?

Yes, this is where I'm at in my thinking. I think fuel flowing through the lines is slowly "cleaning" them, unfortunately the garbage being released is what's causing the issue. I've put ~100k miles on this van since resurrecting it, so in my case these pipes are almost clean. If/when I find another one with a contaminated fuel system I'm going to look into cleaning the interior of these pipes before putting them back into service. Tim

[Kombi]

Do you know what the injector screen trash was composed of? Is it possible that the rubber fuel lines and o rings for the injectors are not ethanol compatible?

[Gambit]

Hi - looking for info on the location of the check valve described earlier in this thread - will I need to drop the whole tank? Or just loosen as shown earlier in the thread? Thanks all

[timsrv]

It's on a small vent hose in the front/top of the tank as shown in post #15 (this thread). Tim

[xrs135]

I currently have my tank out after cleaning it (1988 4x4 5spd)

Fuel gauge has always read just under 1/4 when full.

Upon removing sender, I found a previous owner installed a Universal SeaChoice sending unit. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002IZBLEO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_eRZqDbFG0HZ76

The sender is probably working, but since it's for a 35-240 ohms range gauge, it's basically useless.

Before I give up and put this thing back together, does anybody know of a universal sending unit that actually works with our vans with the correct ohms rating? Any sources for an old stock sender or am I SOL? I was hoping mine had a gummed up OEM sender that I could send away for refurb...

[JPERL]

Here is an idea. Don't know if it will work but why not match the sender you have to a fuel gauge that will work with the sender? To maintain stock look maybe you can attach the stock fuel gauge face plate in the cluster to the internals of a different fuel gauge that is matched to the sender

[Jams]

Yeah, I have no problem flushing them out (once they're out). As you know, the problem is getting them out. No big deal 1 or 2 times, but gets old fast when you're doing it every 4 or 5 months :wall: :(:.


Hey Tim thanks for this write up on your solution. I've been having the exact same issue with my van. i need to go clean the injectors today but I'm stalling just doing research on the internet. i don't wanna go tear my engine apart again, haha. this will be the third time ive cleaned them in the last 2 months, UGH. Anyways, i cleaned the tank and replaced the main and sock filters about 2 months ago. that lasted about 2k miles until they clogged again. mine are clogging with this green sand looking stuff, which doesn't resemble rust. I think i am going to try your fuel filter solution, and maybe clean the tank one more time with something a little stronger than purple power degreaser. did that fuel filter come with all the brass fittings you needed? im not too good with hydraulic lines like this so this is gonna be a learning experience for me.

-Jams

[timsrv]

No, you'll only get the canister and a filter. As for the fuel line and all the little brass parts, if you check THIS POST (http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working&p=13388#post13388) you will see I've embedded links to all of these parts. Just click on the blue text hidden within and it should take you to the parts you need. Tim

[clay]

I created a blog post that describes how I adapted a fuel sending unit from a 1987 Toyota pickup to work in the tank of my '87 4x4 van. I tested it out and it works, but I have yet to put fuel in the tank because I'm working on the van and haven't reinstalled the tank. I'll update when that happens, but I thought others might appreciate this workaround.


here is the link:

https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/entry.php?431-Fuel-Sending-Unit-Replacement-1987-van

[Sir Goofy]

Like the post says, fuel gauge not working. After pulling apart the connection under the van I'm getting 8.4V from the yellow/red wire and the white/black wire coming from the gauge. Also getting OL across the terminals for the variable resistor. The low gas warning light works. Any help would be appreciated.

[micah202]

Ooph, gettin desperate. The actuator arms are totally worn on both gauge senders I have.
Is there a fix for those?

Otherwise,, someone mentioned this gauge unit above,, but no mention of success or otherwise.

Is this the correct Ohm Range? Worth a try @ ~$50 shipped?
0-90 ohms

With Low Fuel Warning Contact




https://www.jegs.com/i/VDO/918/226-164/10002/-1



Did you end up going with the universal fuel level sensor or has anyone found a oem one thats not discontinued?
https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by coronan https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10085#post10085)
I would like to go this route.

VDO 226-164 - VDO Fuel Tank Sending Units
http://www.jegs.com/i/VDO/918/226-164/10002/-1






https://www.jegs.com/images/photos/900/918/918-226-164.jpghttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AXMCx3LYPSpd8etvbBPCxkiLBUSABcQB5U-KEkkUCGItcEsx_ThK066caAfUDD69tpM7omLeqN1PalXYJllyL RlFoNatmAS9NVoVOAQLoMs94RInChxGRolb_ysfxmBaWIUTPeV X_xsGcRkFDTMjs76xKu5h8WjXL2HCcN1pQ7TnC1REybK5uBeqy tDHgjuD0bwIx_5S7jp0V_N3t_zG9NiOGcv070_Ix21RCOiZq-ZRsMpuSUtLGTcJtZg6YSuJMs_IupEHO5XDikSw3ck9txefHsDO KB0KnKWch0lmsQKGy5eGOCzwD-WyhSpjxm7MhNSoeDhuLaPD0NpM0vd4kpAiHZ6PfqUWopfsfyKL L4bdKXp1PmIDsleEiTCT1DMGHidaiW_LeiosLuFrR1MdO6UPMk B6H8ZUj4mPLxLY6U5hM_ZCMS5d7IRMfgoG4Je_c5mE-7k-W44au_Sk3qMKANyNAXQfxMS37EHqu1l6sndS5dIgA4_5oJjk9m pqNeFwDo0pLSi4kktBgbgXvddCiLi_a-xGx742f58Z73f4XcMm4ciUOuslKRMHpLL1TE00KbJQjYVODD0p gvhOzUp3XpTB-SS2go5vzV9SA-rVVEQY3ZRrF1xCblxB2lI6g3KMs2uKdqotfOobauFpWheGLzzr 5sPS37afpzQaeNWm9J_0SM3vthjc3xAhjPYUieZ5eZH9FpBhX8 T9rADmzvluQz0X=w1251-h938-no?authuser=0

[Sir Goofy]

Have driven with non working gauge for years. Think I may have solved my problem. Does the fuel gauge show fuel level after starting the vehicle or simply when you turn the key to accessory.

[micah202]

Yahh, the gauge is active simply for turning the key on. No need to be running.

[micah202]

Update..... soaked the old parts and tank in vinegar, very effective for rust removal.
A bit of wiggling and twiddling, and the worn actuator seems to work fine.
It's handy to note that the unit can be tested simply by plugging it in. It doesn't need to be grounded, or positioned in the tank.





Ooph, gettin desperate. The actuator arms are totally worn on both gauge senders I have.
Is there a fix for those?

Otherwise,, someone mentioned this gauge unit above,, but no mention of success or otherwise.

Is this the correct Ohm Range? Worth a try @ ~$50 shipped?
0-90 ohms

With Low Fuel Warning Contact




https://www.jegs.com/i/VDO/918/226-164/10002/-1



https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by coronan https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10085#post10085)
I would like to go this route.

VDO 226-164 - VDO Fuel Tank Sending Units
http://www.jegs.com/i/VDO/918/226-164/10002/-1






https://www.jegs.com/images/photos/900/918/918-226-164.jpghttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AXMCx3LYPSpd8etvbBPCxkiLBUSABcQB5U-KEkkUCGItcEsx_ThK066caAfUDD69tpM7omLeqN1PalXYJllyL RlFoNatmAS9NVoVOAQLoMs94RInChxGRolb_ysfxmBaWIUTPeV X_xsGcRkFDTMjs76xKu5h8WjXL2HCcN1pQ7TnC1REybK5uBeqy tDHgjuD0bwIx_5S7jp0V_N3t_zG9NiOGcv070_Ix21RCOiZq-ZRsMpuSUtLGTcJtZg6YSuJMs_IupEHO5XDikSw3ck9txefHsDO KB0KnKWch0lmsQKGy5eGOCzwD-WyhSpjxm7MhNSoeDhuLaPD0NpM0vd4kpAiHZ6PfqUWopfsfyKL L4bdKXp1PmIDsleEiTCT1DMGHidaiW_LeiosLuFrR1MdO6UPMk B6H8ZUj4mPLxLY6U5hM_ZCMS5d7IRMfgoG4Je_c5mE-7k-W44au_Sk3qMKANyNAXQfxMS37EHqu1l6sndS5dIgA4_5oJjk9m pqNeFwDo0pLSi4kktBgbgXvddCiLi_a-xGx742f58Z73f4XcMm4ciUOuslKRMHpLL1TE00KbJQjYVODD0p gvhOzUp3XpTB-SS2go5vzV9SA-rVVEQY3ZRrF1xCblxB2lI6g3KMs2uKdqotfOobauFpWheGLzzr 5sPS37afpzQaeNWm9J_0SM3vthjc3xAhjPYUieZ5eZH9FpBhX8 T9rADmzvluQz0X=w1251-h938-no?authuser=0

[Sir Goofy]

Is the actuator arm the part that rubs against the copper coil?

Good news on my issue. I was being impatient with the gauge responding after turning the car on. I was able to repair the sending unit by loosening the copper wire from the coil and soldering to the large metal disk located in the picture. Before putting it all back together I tried again and waited longer. This time it started to react, to say I wasn't fist pumping the air alone in my parkade would be a lie.

[micah202]

Sounds good., you got function back., But have you spent the time to check the sender is responding appropriately at different relative tank heights?

I took some time to be leaving the unit plugged in under the car, shifting the actuator arm to different positions, then checking back every once in a while to see what shows on the guage.

I gottah say it worked a lot better once I was looking at the actual fuel guage itself rather than the temperature gauge in the car,. I had a good laugh over that one.

[Temassi]

This might sound like a real silly question but after you soaked your sending unit in vinegar how did you make sure all the vinegar was off of it before you put it back in? My fuel sender seems to kinda work and I think the vinegar soak is my best option to start with.

[micah202]

I wouldn't be too worried about a small residual of vinegar. You can take a heat gun to it if you want to make sure it's really dry. I'm sure that's good enough, but if you're really worried you could wash it down with another solvent, or gasoline. Just don't do that while you're smoking.:dance2:

As in the post above, you can plug in the sender underneath the car and take the opportunity to calibrate it to your gauge.

[clarkstoyvan]

On my 86 Van, my fuel gauge works intermittently. Anybody have any ideas? Also, when I start it I have the FLOOR it to get it start if it has been sitting for more than a couple of days. It cranks and cranks then starts. Any ideas on that?

Thanks for any information.

[Kombi]

Learning to research previous posts may prove valuable.

[MyToy]

The fuel indicator is pretty basic in its operation. Of course the sender is in the tank along with the low level indicator mounted to the sender module. It is Basically a steel wrapped potentiometer element acking as a voltage divider. If it is intermittent then most likely the wiper on the steel wrapped portion of the potentiometer is beat up or dirty. I had the same problem. I removed the sender and very carefully cleaned up the wiper and steel resintive element with some fine emry cloth. Then gave a bit of persuasion for stronger pressure with the wiper against the elements. That was 70K miles ago and it still works perfect.

As for you hard start. First thing to check on is the pressure in the ring line for the injectors. After you shut the engine down there is some fuel in the ring line. Once you turn the key there is a sail inside the air intake that provides the necessary DC to for ignition. As you crank, the suction pulls the sail and the sail trips a switch that starts routine. You can check the DC from the switch and see if it is providng spark voltage to the coil from the start.
I guess I have been very forturnate in that mine starts so fast, it feels like instant start up and runs perfect.
So start there first and report back.

My Toy

[Toyovan]

You can get this off Amazon hot-rod style canister type (https://www.amazon.com/Aeromotive-12317-Canister-10-Micron-Bright-Dip/dp/B003TPERK2/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_1/137-2694942-9492644?pd_rd_w=Ykm7G&content-id=amzn1.sym.3858a394-39a9-4946-90e6-86a3153d2546&pf_rd_p=3858a394-39a9-4946-90e6-86a3153d2546&pf_rd_r=HMKVXHJDKQPCF0TK0B63&pd_rd_wg=Z0cDZ&pd_rd_r=da93fb69-a58b-4938-8905-5c55cc2329b4&pd_rd_i=B003TPERK2&psc=1). It has a replaceable pleated paper 10 micron cartridge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFSKXM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) inside.. Jegs also sells replacement paper cartridges Aeromotive #027-12608 (http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/12608/10002/-1). There's links hidden in my text that will take you right to the source. Anywhere you see blue text just click and it will take you there. Tim

Hey Tim if it's not too much of a bother can you list all the parts used on this fuel filter upgrade? Some of the links you posted back then are no longer good. Like the adapters on Amazon are NLA (also knowing how many of each would be good) also want to do the fuel pressure gauge and the coolant temp. I'm currently working on the fuel side of my van and rather do this mod all together. Much appreciated!

[timsrv]

I had recently updated all that on THIS POST (https://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?188-Fuel-gauge-not-working&p=13388#post13388). It's been a while but I think I only used one of every part listed. Tim

[Toyovan]

Sweet i got my hands on all the parts except the oil sensor gauge. The 1 you got is a bit pricey for me. No matter which guage I go with, what adapter T is needed (size and stuff) to install at the same location you did? Again thanks for answering all these questions

[timsrv]

You mean the fuel pressure gauge? It's been almost 10 years since I did this and I failed to document all the details of the pressure gauge mod. The parts needed for that were just a couple basic parts I found at my local hardware store. I think the tee is 1/8" female pipe thread and it looks like I added a 1/8" NPT nipple. IMO, brass is best for high pressure fuel systems. Tim

I mounted the gauge to the dash with THIS (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0142C1LW2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

[Toyovan]

Yes sorry I meant fuel pressure. Thank you very much Tim for all the knowledge. I'll leave it at that for now as I'm sure I will bother you again with questions in a month or so lol.