Ball joints, tire wear, steering wheel vibration!

[abracadabra]

Folks-

I've got a problem I'm trying to figure out.

In the last year I've been having issues with steering wheel vibration at speeds over 55 or so. It doesn't seem to be due to the quality of the roads either, sometimes I'll be at 55-60 on a so-so road and the vibration is minimal/non existent, and sometimes on smoother roads it might vibrate.

I suspected tires at first. I have a set of Hankooks on that I didn't rotate for a long time, I bought them new in Oregon and put close to 7k on the vehicle. So I took the van in and had the tires balanced and rotated.

And guess what, at first the ride seemed worse! I hardly ever have to go over 55 here so it hasn't been a big deal but when I get on the Interstate its nice to hit 60-65 without the vibration.

So, today I went out and rotated my own tires. I noticed that the left front tire was very worn on the outside edge only. No other tire showed strange wear patterns, which is funny because if the tires were rotated before then there should be another tire with wear too, right?

Anyway a light bulb went off as I realized that the LF side is where I was told I had a bad lower ball joint. Could this be my issue? It hasn't been anything that's bothered me so I never thought about having it fixed. I was hoping it might just be an alignment thing but I hate to pay for an alignment only to have it be not the problem!

Any thoughts? thanks!

Mark in Maine w/ '87 4WD LE

[timsrv]

Any time there's an irregular tire wear issue you should take it in for an alignment. I don't know where to go to in Maine, but here I recommend Les Schwab. Les Schwab will align the vehicle for $50. Part of the alignment is checking critical components (like ball joints & tie rods). One thing I like about Les Schwab is they don't charge unless they make an adjustment (alignment is free). Due to liability reasons, if they find a part that's bad or worn beyond acceptable limits, then they won't adjust (it's still free).

Since you already know the lower left ball joint is bad, then it's a no-brainer (replace it already). After replacement take the van in for an alignment. Putting it off will cost you more in the long run (tires are expensive). Having an alignment issue will also decrease your gas mileage. Worn parts (like ball joints) make it impossible to accurately align a vehicle and improper alignment is the #1 reason for irregular tire wear. This is the reason many people (myself included) have their vehicle's alignment checked EVERY time new tires are installed. Tim

[abracadabra]

Well I think an alignment is in order, yes.

The lower ball joint I've known about but because I didn't notice any problems due to it being bad I never looked in to fixing it.

I have to say the procedure seems straightforward EXCEPT for the several "SST" required and also removing the steering knuckle seems a little tricky, does it need to come off for just replacing the lower?

thanks!

mark

[Burntboot]

Mark - If one lower ball joint is bad, don't take chances, replace both sides, they are relatively cheap and I guarantee you will notice a huge improvement in handling with fresh joints in there.
Noises over bumps will be significantly decreased as will the the crosswind effect.
I couldn't believe the difference when I did mine, night and day.
They are easy enough to check as well but if they are original, it is a no brainer.
Just remember the proper procedure for checking and don't confuse it the way I did.

I was jacking up the lower arm and levering between tire and road and of course everything seemed fine as the joint was under load.
In reality, you have to lever between the rim and the lower arm, because the "spring" is on the upper arm.

Ignore the manual when it comes to procedure, there is absolutely no reason to pull the spindle.
I used a ball joint press and a hammer (back off the nut, load up the joint, then give it a whack) then unbolt the base and remove.
While the press may have been overkill I had less chance of whacking something important and could easily see when the joint separated.
IIRC, it was necessary to disconnect shocks and sway bar ends to get enough movement from the lower arm though.

BB

[abracadabra]

Funny thing is, I feel like the van handles really well right now and I don't notice noises going over bumps, maybe my stereo is turned up too loud!

Anyway I haven't checked the ball joint myself but I had the van in to a shop in Philly last year to check out a different problem he said the ball joint was bad, and I just made a mental note, and now with the the whole worn tire on that side well it seems kinda like the problem....

By the way, it seems Rock Auto doesn't have any options for lower ball joints for 4WD, I do think the part number for Toyota is 43330-29165 and Toyota Parts Zone has that one in for $60 or so.

mark

[timsrv]

The number you posted is the old number for the right hand lower joint. The current part numbers are 43340-29116 for left hand lower and 43330-29166 for right hand lower. $60 is a pretty good price for a Toyota joint. Looks like the lowest price on www.rockauto.com is about the same as Toyota. FWIW, these are MOOG Part # K9531 (left lower ball joint) & MOOG Part # K9529 (right lower ball joint). Since price is a wash, I'd go with Toyota.

I replaced the factory ball joints on my 89 2wd cargo van at around 130k miles. They were still pretty tight, but I just decided it was time. I got some Beck Arnley joints on a rockauto close-out sale for $7 each. During a random check at around 150k miles I noticed the lower right ball joint had almost 1/2" vertical play in it :shock:. So I ended up changing it again. Moral of the story, I would rather have spent the $60 for Toyota and saved the trouble of doing it again. I had purchased a bunch of the $7 ball joints & needed the van the next day, so I grudgingly put another Beck Arnley joint on it. I had saved the original joints and was very tempted to put them back on. I'm guessing my experience was a fluke, but time will tell. Tim

[Burntboot]

Mark - I have found that it is always best to double check what I have been told by "experts".
If you check it (follow the procedures in the manual and you can't go wrong) YOU will know exactly what and where the faults lie.
If a joint is out of spec, it needs to be changed, regardless of how it drives.
You may also find that everything is tight and all you need is an alignment.

For what it's worth (and I used to be the guy selling alignments) my own personal rule of thumb is that if it goes straight, steering wheel is straight and there is no abnormal tire wear, I leave it alone.
However, if there is a problem with any of those conditions, then I check everything before going after alignment.

If you hit something, hard enough to throw off the alignment, then something is damaged and those parts should be replaced, if possible.
If something is worn enough to affect the alignment then that part(s) should be replaced BEFORE any adjustments are made.
Also be aware that other systems can have an effect on tire wear as much as joints and specs.
A seized slider, blown shock, toasted sway bar bushings and even torsion bar adjustment (ride height) all work together and must all be correct
All of them can affect tire wear.

Bottom line is get in there yourself, check everything and correct was isn't right and then free up the tie-rods and camber/castor adjusters....
Just mark everything before you start and put it back to where it was when your done.
It may take you a couple of hours but will save you large when it comes rack time.
I have seen more parts damaged beyond repair by techs that don't take the time to properly free something and destroy it in the process as well as bills that have HUGE extra charges to "free" stuff up that was never seized in the first place.

While I realize there are more honest techs than dishonest, you don't want to find out the hard way and when dealing with older, obscure vehicles the probability of issues increases dramatically.
My own experience with fr end/alignment techs has been sketchy at best and I have learned to cover my bases before hand.

BB

[abracadabra]

Ah, well I have to say I know very little about front end stuff.

As far as alignment goes I can say that the van has always driven straight and true when it comes to the "hands off the wheel" test. That's why I never had an alignment done to begin with.

First thing I'll do for sure is check myself that the lower ball joint is bad, later today when I have a moment.

If its bad I'll get the OEM joint for sure.

I've seen a posting on the other site about doing the 2WD upper/lower joints. How different are the 4WD as far as procedure? It seems the FSM breakdown is fairly complicated. How easy can I make it if I just want to replace the lower, not the upper?

thanks for all the help so far,

mark

[timsrv]

On the 4wd the uppers are not removable.............you don't change the uppers unless you change the entire upper control arms. I haven't checked cost and availability lately but I'd expect them to be over $250 each (if available).

I can't remember the exact procedure for replacing just the lower joint on a 4wd, but it's all pretty straight forward. I've had the entire suspension apart on these numerous times and nothing really stands out. Just take off what you need to. If something gets in your way then take it off too. Aside from the normal hand tools you should have a "pickle fork" to help separate the bad joint from the spindle assy. Most tool rental places will have these.

Here's the business end of a pickle fork:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/05-2.jpg

The rest of it is just a shaft. You drive it into the joint with a hammer to separate it from the spindle. There are other ways, but IMO this is the easiest & most reliable. Tim

[Burntboot]

The only thing I don't like about pickle forks is they REQUIRE replacement of the joint as they always destroy the boot.
I usually use the 2 hammer method (big hammer on the back, whack with a big hammer on the front) but used the little pressing tool as I was afraid I may slip and ding something.
The theory is the hammering on the joint flexes the hole and as long as you have tension on the joint in the correct direction, it will separate.
Using a balljoint press frees up a hand and puts the load in the correct direction instead of trying to hold a hammer on the backside while prying down on the control arm and whacking the front side.
There isn't a lot of room there to begin with but I tend to save any parts that aren't toast just in case of future need.
If only the LS is bad (and the RS wants to be saved for the just in case scenarios), the pickle fork will render the "good side" scrap as well.
I only have a 4WD, so what I said earlier is what I did to replace mine.
You don't need to disturb the upper at all.

But Tim has it right, only disturb what you have to, go slow and be methodical.

By all means use the pickle if it makes life easier, I have just always found the other method easier with less chance of problems.
I have run into a few that even with the pickle, refused to budge,but have never had the same problem with the 2 hammer method.
But to each, their own.

[timsrv]

Yeah, the pickle fork is hard on boots, but anytime I use it I've pretty much already decided to replace the joint anyhow. I've used the hammer method too, but not crazy about putting dents in the spindle........probably inconsequential, but I still don't like it. I've worked on rigs before that had torn boots from past mechanics using a pickle fork. They are a little messier (as they ooze grease) but for the most part they still do their job of keeping the dirt/grit out & most of the grease in. Like you said "to each his own". Something about whacking that pickle fork with a BFH makes me all happy inside :wnk:. Tim

[abracadabra]

Okay, surprise surprise. I got under the van an unweighted the front wheels, went through the standard checks for the upper and lower ball joints. They all checked out!

I thought I had checked these before when I was dealing with some wheel noise, but I couldn't be sure, so when this mechanic said I had a bad one I was surprised.

So at this point I think I'll just get a free alignment check w/ the local Tire Warehouse, then I can get another opinion and go from there.

thanks!

mark

[Burntboot]

Mark - When you say "standard tests" for the ball joints, just be aware that if you lever between the ground and the tire (with the wheels unweighted) you wont see any play in the lowers.
Because the spring acts on the upper and the lower ball joint is "upside down" you wont see any play in a bad joint using that method.
My reason for harping on this point, is I did it wrong several times before reading the manual one day and had a eureka moment.
It was only when I followed the manuals procedure that I found they had play, and LOTS of it.

That is why you MUST lever between the RIM and the lower arm.
As long as you did that, your good to go.

BB

[djshimon]

tituswilltoyota(formerly 1sttoyotaparts) has the 4wd upper control arms for $326.93, each:dizzy::pissed:!!! Well they say they have them, don't know if they really do.

[abracadabra]

Well the people who did the free alignment check tell me I've got a loose bearing on the passenger side and a loose tie rod on the passenger side.

The wheel bearings I just did and it is possible the passenger side has loosened up, I'll check shortly.

Tie rods I know nothing about. The procedure in the FSM seems pretty straightforward, remove the the tie rod from the knuckle and then replace, then have the alignment done? If there's more please let me know.

Obviously I'll get the front wheels off the ground tomorrow and verify the tie rod is in fact loose before I proceed.

Hopefully I get this squared away without too much trouble!!

thanks,

mark

[abracadabra]

I wouldn't click on that last post!

Anyway, I did some checking today and my passenger side wheel bearing had loosened a little, I tore it down and got it to factory spec again, I know this wasn't my steering wheel shake/tire wear problem but since the line up shop said they wouldn't align the van with the loose bearing it had to be done.

I did some checking on the tie rod ends. The outer on the driver side seemed fine, I couldn't see any play. The inner is covered by that rubber so I wonder how does one "see" if the inner has play? For sure there's a sort of clicking/knocking that can be heard and felt around that inner, I tried the other side of the car and both tie rods seem fine but you could still "feel" the knock of the other tie rod (if thats what it is?)

Anyway, any other good ways to check this out? I've read the inners can be a pain to get out, some people mention using a pipe wrench to assist?

Also, does a new rubber come with the new inner tie rod or is that a separate item?

And, if the outer is still okay, how do I get it off the knuckle without destroying the rubber? Seems like a fork tool might mess up the rubber there.

Any tips would be awesome, I'd love to get this all squared away!

thanks,

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh, one other thing.

I've been having a hard time finding options for new inner tie rods (87 4x4).

Rock Auto has some very cheap "service grade" Raybestos for $12 and then some "pro grade" ones for alot more.

What is the Toyota part number for this just to know the price?

Money is tight, would the cheapo ones be okay or just a total waste of time?

thanks,

mark

[timsrv]

The left tire rod assy is Toyota part #45460-29295 MSRP is $122.63. TitusWillToyota.com (https://parts.tituswilltoyota.com/oempartscat.html) has them for $88.48. If money is tight then go with the cheapo one. Worst that can happen is you might be doing the job again in a couple years (rather than 25 or so with a Toyota part). Tim

[abracadabra]

Thanks for that info Tim.

I've also read about folks upgrading the tie rod ends on earlier models to the ones used on the '89's. I know I'd have to get both and inner and outter but if it makes a big difference then it might make sense. But would steering be funky if I had the '89 ends on one side and the originals on the other?

Probably I'll just buy the $12 cheapo and have at it. I'll learn something new and hopefully fix a problem and save my tires.

thanks,

mark

[timsrv]

I've never messed around with modding the tie rods/racks on these vans. I've only replaced the parts that were called for. Not sure what might be involved with switching to 89. Good luck. Tim

[Burntboot]

Mark - Check to make sure that your play is within the inner joint itself.
Have someone wiggle the wheel while you hold the inner joint, pulling the boot back will help a great deal.
You will be able to tell if the play is within the joint or between the rack and the housing.
While the OEM boot clamps are no longer available, a standard cable tie works fairly well at securing the boot.

I had a very similar experience to yours and bought a new OEM inner tie-rod and boot in anticipation of the repair.
On teardown I discovered the joint to be tight.
I found my play was internal within the rack.

On the right side, there is a plastic bushing that can self destruct, on the left side, the preload is set by a spring loaded plunger.
(Usually the rack will wear in the area of the plunger, #1 cause of core rejection)

I lived with it for a long time, till one day I decided to attack the rack (against good advice to the contrary)
I found the little plunger that preloads the rack was seized far, far away from the rack itself.
After a thorough cleaning and polishing of all parts involved, fresh grease and reassembly and everything torqued to spec, life is good.
I am still on the look-out for another rack to have rebuilt, but for now things are a lot better.

You do have to be very careful with the preload setting as too much can cause the rack to self-destruct.
In the manual, they discuss setting the preload with the rack removed and mostly disassembled, unfortunately that wasn't an option for me.
I opted for just a "tich" of play rather than destroy the rack.

Further, I don't actually recommend this repair.
I only offer up my experience in hope of helping others avoid spending gobs of cash on parts that are non-returnable.
BB

[abracadabra]

By the way Tim, the part number you mentioned for the genuine Toyota part, its listed as "tie rod assembly" and I can't find a pic, do they sell the inner and outer together or just one? Might be worth it if its both.

mark

[timsrv]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/tierod.jpg

[abracadabra]

Okay so whats the part that this part attaches to? Not the knuckle end but the other end. I thought that was the "inner". I guess I'm confused on terminology with the tie rods. The part on my van that seems loose isn't the rod that bolts the knuckle but the other rubber covered end/rod that goes in to the rack. What would that be called? Sorry but I just don't know nuthin' about front ends!

mark

[abracadabra]

Yeah I need to verify all this more. When you pull the boot back are you pulling it back towards the tire or the other way (after the clamp is removed of course?) I tried to squeeze the boot but it was hard to tell. Certainly I felt it more on that side than the other, but I'll have to check. Hope its not the rack, that would suck!

mark













Mark - Check to make sure that your play is within the inner joint itself.
Have someone wiggle the wheel while you hold the inner joint, pulling the boot back will help a great deal.
You will be able to tell if the play is within the joint or between the rack and the housing.
While the OEM boot clamps are no longer available, a standard cable tie works fairly well at securing the boot.

I had a very similar experience to yours and bought a new OEM inner tie-rod and boot in anticipation of the repair.
On teardown I discovered the joint to be tight.
I found my play was internal within the rack.

On the right side, there is a plastic bushing that can self destruct, on the left side, the preload is set by a spring loaded plunger.
(Usually the rack will wear in the area of the plunger, #1 cause of core rejection)

I lived with it for a long time, till one day I decided to attack the rack (against good advice to the contrary)
I found the little plunger that preloads the rack was seized far, far away from the rack itself.
After a thorough cleaning and polishing of all parts involved, fresh grease and reassembly and everything torqued to spec, life is good.
I am still on the look-out for another rack to have rebuilt, but for now things are a lot better.

You do have to be very careful with the preload setting as too much can cause the rack to self-destruct.
In the manual, they discuss setting the preload with the rack removed and mostly disassembled, unfortunately that wasn't an option for me.
I opted for just a "tich" of play rather than destroy the rack.

Further, I don't actually recommend this repair.
I only offer up my experience in hope of helping others avoid spending gobs of cash on parts that are non-returnable.
BB

[timsrv]

Mark,

Toyota made a bunch of rack changes throughout the years. BB's van is an 88 and his has removable parts at the ends of the steering rack (what he's calling inner tie rods). Below is an image from the EPC & the inner tie rods are highlighted in orange. On the 87 these parts don't come off. If your play is here then you have a rack problem. Tim

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/rack.jpg

[abracadabra]

Oh man, this changes everything!! The FSM I use is from an '88, I thought most things were the same except for the EFI setup, but now I know there are more differences!

For sure the play is in the rack then. The outers have no play.

Is the procedure for removing the rack on an '87 like removing the rack on an '88? Seems like you remove tie rods from both sides and remove some bolts, then it comes out? How hard is this to do? Am I over my head on this one? I know the local AutoZone has a rack for my van for $179. Probably not a great one but.......

I was really hoping it wouldn't be this complicated!!

mark

[timsrv]

Mark,

To be completely honest I'm a little weak on the differences in racks. I was in a bit of a hurry when I made that last post so I made some assumptions that may not be 100% accurate.

When I look up the 88 van in the EPC it gives part numbers for all the parts in the picture above. When I look up the 87 van (image above is from the 87 van EPC) it simply says "Not applicable" for many parts (including the rack ends). This leaves me to assume that these parts were either: A. Never sold separately, or B. Non removable.

When I checked the 87 service manual this morning I see there's instructions for disassembling and rebuilding the rack. One of the steps is to remove the "rack ends", so I was wrong on them not being removable. Not sure why Toyota doesn't list these part numbers in the 87 EPC.

In short, don't take my word on this. If I had this problem on a daily driver, I'd probably just buy a non-leaking salvage yard rack or a cheap rebuilt one from rockauto or eBay, then, once I had the time, I'd take apart the original and figure out what it needs. Once you know what parts are bad research and order as required. If you can get parts then fix it & keep as a spare. If you can't get parts then toss it. Good luck. Tim

[timsrv]

Okay, I just did some more checking and it appears there's even a difference from 2wd to 4wd in 87. Not sure what these differences are but the 2wd racks can be had from rockauto for $107. The cheapest one listed for 4wd is A-1 CARDONE Part # 261666 and it goes for $247.79. When I went to Ebay I found the same rack: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CARDONE-26-1666-Rack-Pinion-Complete-Unit-/200792796090?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AToyota%7CModel%3AVan&hash=item2ec02eebba&vxp=mtr . I also found a set of inner tie rods listed for 87 Toyota vans: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Inner-Tie-Rod-rack-ends-TOYOTA-VAN-3-DOOR-86-87-88-89-/140505876063?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AToyota%7CModel%3AVan&hash=item20b6cd865f&vxp=mtr .

So it looks like the info & the parts are out there. At some point you just need to get in there and do the work. Once you know what parts are bad then do what needs to be done. Tim

[abracadabra]

Well this is interesting! When I originally called my local parts store, AutoZone, to check on prices for tie rods they couldn't find anything listed for inners. I told them they should exist, but the guy went through their list and saw that the rack sold w/ inners but they couldn't source inners. So I guess it makes sense that its all one unit. I am confused by the 2 inners being sold by the guy on Ebay though.

My big problem right now is that I could afford some tie rods but spending the bucks on a rack right now, not to mention doing the work in November in Maine, is a real stretch. Kinda sucks. Luckily the van doesn't give me the illusion of being sketchy to drive and only vibrates when driven at highway speeds.....we really don't do any highway driving here so I may have to sit tight and baby it until I have the money.

For folks who've removed racks, how hard is it? I've done brakes, wheel bearings and 4wd hubs, rebuilt a power steering unit, rotate my own tires, etc. Ideally I'd want to do this myself as I certainly don't have the scratch to pay someone to do it!

thanks for all the help so far,

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh I just double checked w/ AutoZone about the rack they can get. Its their "brand" but made by Cardone, $179 plus $105 core. So as long as I can get the old unit back to them its not too bad of a deal. I wish I had the '87 manual so I could know the process for sure, I imagine it pretty similar to the '88 process at least?

mark

[timsrv]

Here's a link to view/download an 87 manual for free: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q4u_5zlshRsVDv5v86CiukP7wOD7nKyF/view.

As for Autozone, make sure it's the same A-1 Cardone part number I posted earlier (26-1666). The rack for the 2wd is part # 24-1605 & sells for $107 at rockauto. I'm not sure if it could be interchanged or not. Tim

[abracadabra]

Okay, I'll certainly look over that manual! I just peered through the section in the '88 manual and the BIG hurdle I see is this: the 1st step involves removing the front differential! Oh man, I'm just not really set up to do this much work out here. Maybe I'm over reacting but this whole job is turning out to to be alot more complicated than I ever thought!

Just to know, is there anything else that could be causing the steering vibrations and wheel wear before I head down this road? I sometimes read about bushings somewhere, or the idler arm or pitman arm. Could these be culprits? How does one check? I can't find mention of the idler arm or pitman arm in the manual.

thanks again,

mark

[djshimon]

Sorry if this is redundant and already been covered but have the front wheels been balanced? Probably wouldn't account for the tire wear, but the vibration maybe.

[abracadabra]

Ah yes, this is one of the first things I did, had the wheels rotated and balanced maybe 10k ago when the problem first popped up. It actually made the steering vibration worse at first, then it just became what it is now, an intermittent steering wheel vibration at speeds over 55 with tire wear to the outside edge of the left front tire.

mark








Sorry if this is redundant and already been covered but have the front wheels been balanced? Probably wouldn't account for the tire wear, but the vibration maybe.

[Burntboot]

Mark - I haven't pulled my rack out yet but it does look like a bit of a bugger as the mounting bolts face forward and are hard to access.
Somewhere Tim had mentioned something about the rack mounts breaking at the welds to the frame but I would expect the play in that case
would be housing movement.
From looking at mine, most of it is bull work, form what you have done so far, I doubt it is beyond your abilities.
The big problem is the weather, I am a lot more north of you and winter is knocking on our door, given the time of year, I would want to be working in a garage, even unheated would be preferable to working in the snow.
Dropping the diff down is not really that hard, pull the 4 bolts holding the cross brace and the diff comes down a couple of inches.
This I know as I have had my fr driveshaft out a number of times and that must be done to extract it. that may be enough to get the clearance you need to pull the rack. My hesitation on pulling the rack was more the condition of the lines, as nothing is leaking I didn't want to kick that dog just yet.
You will need to split the outer tie rods to extract the rack, this is a place I would use the 2 hammer method to save the boots on the outers.
You also have to separate all the fluid lines and of course the shaft from the dreaded bevel gear to the rack.
When I had the rad out, it looked like it might be easy to access the rack that way too, but that isn't an easier way to get at things.

You really need to get in there and find out exactly where your play is coming from.
For the record, remove both clips on the boot and slide it towards the wheel (big end away from the housing) this will let you see exactly where the play is within the rack.
At this point you will also be able to assess the condition of all the bits in there. Look at the lower control arm bushings, if they are cracked or have bits of rubber missing they should be on the list for future replacement, stick a crowbar up between the control arm and the frame on either side and pry with the bar, if it moves and stays there the bushing is toast, it should give a little and return to where it was, if all is good.
Also check the sway bar bushings (2 near the ends at the lower control arm as well as the frame mounts which are convoluted things that have a standard style through mount attached to a long pin with more rubbers where they bolt up)
Upper bushings have plugs installed and while it is a serious pita, you can get the plugs out and put in fittings and get some grease into them.

At this point, it may be worth trying my hack repair, if your plunger is seized in the downward position you may be able to clean things up and get some tension back on the plunger (it is spring loaded) and reduce the play somewhat.
For what it is worth, there is no PS fluid in the pinion area of the rack (where the plunger is located), the grease in mine was totally degraded and had the consistency of dry mud rather than a lubricant.
My issue showed up after a little jaunt down a very rough gravel road, prior it had just been clicky, but after that side road it was a decided clunk.
After it was all cleaned up and I was torquing the base, I had the front wheels in the air, wheels removed and kept rotating through the full swing of the steering (manhandling the spindle rather than the steering wheel) when it was too tight, you could feel it through the spindle, when it was too loose it was clunky and I just found a happy medium between the 2. If that doesn't work you will need the rack for sure, so it might be worth the gamble??
Beware that having fluid in the rack will complicate the whole procedure, I didn't drain it but did push some fluid back up through the system and out the top of the reservoir and when you are working through the range of movement it complicates the sensation of feeling as you will get a spot where your not moving fluid then you are, but again, it is possible to do but is a pita.

One more thought, while the shimmy you experience is only at certain times and can possibly be avoided, whatever is wrong in there is still putting excessive strain on everything else, ignoring it, while tempting, will only end up costing more in the long run as it will do damage to other parts in the meantime.
The worn part puts more load on other parts that aren't designed to experience those loads, so it is best to nip this in the bud, as soon as possible.

One more thought, is the tire wear on the outside of the tire smooth or is it cupped? If it isn't smooth it may also be well worth dropping out the shocks and seeing if there are dead spots in their movement, bad shocks can also cause tire wear.
For the record, when I pulled mine, at first I thought they weren't too bad as they would expand on their own, almost put them back in until I realized their expansion wasn't linear and the more I worked them, the worse they got. Dead spots within the movement is also a bad sign and could emanate as a shimmy in the wheel.
Just another thing to be aware of.

BB

[timsrv]

I thought about it and can't recall ever removing the rack on a 4wd. It wouldn't surprise me if you had to remove the front diff, but like BB said, that's not hard to do. Even pulling the diff out completely is pretty straight forward. I agree with BB on the hydraulic lines. Here is WA state they don't salt the roads & these lines are still a PITA (they get stuck good). In places where they salt, I think after 2 or 3 years exposure you'd be up a creek. If you pull these be sure to use a good quality tubing wrench.

With all this in mind I'd probably keep your old rack installed then follow BB's advice about inspection/replacement of only the parts with play. Here's a picture I took of a rack in a 4wd that I recently had the engine & radiator out of. Camera angle is from the engine side:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/timsrv/TVT%20pics/suspension/IMG_1388.jpg

[abracadabra]

Well I just had a moment to try and work the rubber boot off, I loosened the clamp and it was on real good, I couldn't budge it! I thought if its this hard to get off how hard will it be to get on? I don't have the vehicle lifted at all right now so its a real tight spot.

But......when my wife works the wheel and I squeeze the boot I can feel looseness in there. When I have more time (I have to get somewhere) I'll pry the boot off and have a look see.

thankS!

mark

[Burntboot]

That boot has been on there for about 25 yrs so it is well seated. Grab an old, small flat blade screwdriver, old so that it has no sharp edges.
A dull pick will also work, anything you can get under the boot that isn't too fat or sharp.
Work it under the edge of the boot and work it around a little, be careful as you don't want to rip or puncture the boot, sometimes twisting theboot a bit will also help break the seal, but once you break it free, it should be a lot easier to get it off.
Sometimes it is easier to move it if you remove the small end clamp too and break it free as well, then you only have to slide it back and don't need to worry about trying to compress the boot, it sits in a small recess, once past that, it should slide fairly easily, clean the tie rod of grime so as to have it slide free without any sandpaper effect. Refit the original clamps or use cable ties to secure once done, as both ends sit in a recess it doesn't need to be overly tight to seal, there shouldn't be any fluid in there, it is there only to keep the elements out.
If you find PS fluid in the boot, the rack seals are toast and it is time for a new rack.
BB

[abracadabra]

Okay, very good info to have!

I'm looking for a moment in the next week to really diagnose this.

Here's a question I've had:

I'd like to get both front wheels off the ground to check things out, I have two jack stands, but I can never really decide where to put the jack stands? I mean there's the obvious factory jack spot up front but since my jack is under that one, where do I put the stand? Not sure, any thoughts??

mark

[Burntboot]

Mark - Just behind the front cross member is a round tube that runs side to side. Welded to it (on either side) is a square bracket. Put your jack stand on that point. You can also go ahead of the fr axle where the front frame rail splits into a Y, have never used that position as my stands aren't that tall. Its is easily visible with the wheels on.
all detailed in the owners handbook as well. Generally you want the stands as far outboard as possible, I wouldn't try to put them where the jack goes
as there isn't enough width to be safe.
BB

[timsrv]

I usually jack from the front cross-member that's under the radiator. You can put jack-stands anywhere under the sub-frame, but try to avoid areas that slope (stands can slip). I usually use the sway bar mounts (place where sway bar mounts to the sub-frame) & put the mount brackets into the grooved parts of my jack stands. Of course you need taller heavy duty jack stands for this as these locations are already pretty high up. As for the back, jack from under the differential and put the jack stands under the axle as far outboard as possible. The big thing to remember is "safety 1st". Whenever I'm not sure about the stability of a vehicle I grab it and give it a good shake before I climb under (or put any part of my body in harm's way). If it's solid then I feel safe. If it sways then I'll try something different. If shaking it makes it fall, then whatever........I'd rather it fall BEFORE I get under :dizzy:.

PS: Never jack from the front differential. Be very careful about using wood blocks for spacers & NEVER use bricks, concrete or cinder blocks (as they can break without warning). Tim

[abracadabra]

Okay I finally got both front wheels off the ground today at the same time so I could really try to diagnose this issue.

The rubber boot came off without too much trouble. I could not detect any play on either inner or out tie rods, nothing. Its tight. No leaking fluids, the inner which I took the boot off looked really clean and greased.

I did feel out the components in the steering system for play or "feel" or sound, the best that I can detect is there's some play in the arm and linkage that goes from the rack to the steering thingy that has another arm attached that goes to the steering wheel. I don't know what these components are called but I took a pic to show. When my wife moved the wheel back and forth I can feel play here, just a touch, but its the only other play I can detect anywhere. Re-checked both ball joints again too while the wheels were up, no play.

What am I looking at here? What is this rod or arm and who do I eliminate play in it? Seems like it might be the cause of my steering wheel vibration, who knows?!

mark801

[Burntboot]

That rod is the connection between the "bevel gear" (many threads about that one and the infamous recall) and the steering rack.
Depends on where the play is, if it is in the U-joint of that shaft, it is time for a new (or used) shaft. If it is in the bevel gear then it is time for a new assembly. While the BG is serviceable, there are no bearings in North america and Toyo won't supply anything other than a whole assembly.
It would be worth looking into the recall, didn't apply to mine so I had the pleasure of dropping $800 on a new one. Then again that is the CDN price, am sure you could get it for a lot less.
At least the rack is good, that's good news.

[abracadabra]

Yeah I found out about the bevel gear recall through some searching, I can't find the official bulletin so I'm having a hard time finding out what years it covers, I know I've read 86-87 and I've got an 87

Its really hard to tell if the play is in the gear housing or the joint, for sure I've isolated it to that spot, in fact I had my wife hold the steering wheel in place to lock everything up and thats where the play was in the whole system, and she even said that when I was moving the rod around that it felt like the vibration we get when the speeds get over 55 or so.

It will be really funny to call the local Toyo dealer about a possible recall fix!

Also, what is the technical name for the U joint/shaft if I determine the play is there? I looked at some places like Rock Auto and there's no mention of this part, probably something I'd have to source from Toyota or second hand.

thanks for the help, hopefully I can put an end to this problem before the snow hits here in Maine!!

mark










That rod is the connection between the "bevel gear" (many threads about that one and the infamous recall) and the steering rack.
Depends on where the play is, if it is in the U-joint of that shaft, it is time for a new (or used) shaft. If it is in the bevel gear then it is time for a new assembly. While the BG is serviceable, there are no bearings in North america and Toyo won't supply anything other than a whole assembly.
It would be worth looking into the recall, didn't apply to mine so I had the pleasure of dropping $800 on a new one. Then again that is the CDN price, am sure you could get it for a lot less.
At least the rack is good, that's good news.

[Burntboot]

My manual references that part as the "torque shaft" and yes, it would likely be a dealer item only (or scrap yard).

IIRC, the campaign was referenced in one of the threads (perhaps it was on the other site??), I think it was Trestlehead that linked to it.
(I no longer have a copy on file)
I believe it applies up to 87, maybe even a few early 88's but mine was past the vin break and Toyo Canada verified there were no outstanding recalls.

I would be inclined to contact Toyota head office (USA) to find out status of your van and wether or not it has been actioned, sometimes individual dealers will be less than receptive to such enquiries.
There is a reasonably good chance you will be able to get some help on this, assuming that the recall is outstanding.

If the play is in the shaft, you should be able to feel the play within the u-joint in the shaft, itself.
If you place your hand on the output of the BG, holding the housing and the shaft with one hand, then work the shaft up and down.
You will know right away of the play is within the gear itself.
While it may be hard to see, you WILL be able feel it by holding both parts with one hand.
While it is somewhat possible that the wear is in the splines on the end of the joint where it meets rack or BG, they usually seize on there, not get loose.
Unless there was some sort of impact, I can't see the fault being there.
Odds are, it is the bevel gear itself.
Good luck.
BB

[abracadabra]

Okay so I just got back from running some errands and had a moment before the rain to get under the van and REALLY figure out where the play is coming from. Yesterday I ruled out the rest of the steering system but I had SUCH an awful time getting the rack boot back on w/ clamp that I didn't have the patience to go any further.

So today I discovered that the play really is in the arm or joint ABOVE the bevel gear. The reason i can feel it in the torque shaft is because everything is connected i guess. Anyway I couldn't really verify if it was the U joints with the play or the actual shaft itself, the light was bad but I could swear I could see the shaft itself having play when I moved it. My flashlight is out of batteries and its raining so its hard to see.

I took a pic of the area, not sure of the terms once again. Is there a bushing or something else that would cause the maine shaft from the steering wheel to have play?

You know its funny, when I first started getting steering wheel play a long time ago I initially suspected something more directly related to the steering column. Just a hunch, I think I had a similar problem on another vehicle years ago. But everyone said check your tires, balance, alignment, etc, and then I had two different professionals tell me I had a "bad ball joint" or "bad inner or outer tie rod" even though it wasn't true, now I'm back to the beginning, maybe my hunch was right?

Any thoughts would be great. I just dug out my FSM and will peruse the steering section.

Thanks again,

mark in Maine

802

[abracadabra]

BB, in referring to a previous response you made in this post I totally glossed over the part about worn shocks.

I just thought to myself that yes, there seems to be a small amount of play in the main steering shaft or universal joint, but what does that have to do with my worn outside left tire? The tire wear was smooth.
Does one have to remove the shocks to check them? I looked through the FSM and the procedure seems pretty straighforward, as long as the bolts come off easy enough!

maybe I'll look in to that, too.

mark

[Burntboot]

Steering column is made up of a "main shaft" with 1 U-joint, which goes from the steering wheel to about the tilt mechanism then connects to the "intermediate shaft" which has 2 U-joints.
I know when I had my BG off, the bottom end of the int. shaft was floppy (not supported).
In the manual they do reference upper and lower bearings on the main shaft, the upper bearing is in the upper bracket, not sure on the lower bearing.
Looks like a bugger to get too though, as it would likely be column out and complete tear down.

Any chance you have ever pulled the steering wheel to do other things and maybe it isn't quite tight?
In all my years I have never seen an issue in an upper column on any "old style" vehicle.
Anything with POWER tilt and telescope is a different ball of wax.

I would probably start with checking to make sure the steering wheel is actually secured to the shaft and diagnose from there.
If you are into column bearings or U-joints, you may just want to grab something at the local P&P and swap assemblies.
At least you will know how to check donor vehicles for a good unit.
BB

[abracadabra]

Okay so today I'm going back out and checking out the shocks, control arm bushings, and sway bar bushings.

As well, I have a question about checking the ball joints. I've been using the pry method, lifting the wheel and prying between the ground/tire for the upper and the rim/arm for the lower.

I don't have an official pry bar, and my "cheater" rod I use to break nuts loose won't fit right, so I've been using a piece of scrap wood to to this. I'm wondering, how hard does one pry? Because whenever I'm researching tire wear, vibrations, etc, ball joints come up first. And, I also had a mechanic in Philly tell me I had a bad lower ball joint on the drivers side (where I had tire wear)

Are there visual indicators as well for the ball joints? I'm going to dig around for a metal bar and try to pry, check for any looseness.

Oh, another thing, I don't know if this is related, but if I make a real slow, sharp turn (like turning around somewhere with the wheel turned all the way to one direction ) I get a bad clunk from up front......could this be related to some worn suspension part?

I'll update later as I check things out. I've learned alot here, I always heard of control arms and sway bars but now I actually know where they are and what they do. I've rebuilt some old engines etc but this is my first foray in to front ends.....sure do appreciate all the help!

thanks,

mark in Maine

[trestlehed]

Here is the steering bevel gear recall thread. Make sure you read the entire thread.
The link to download the official Toyota Service Campaign doesn't work.
I'll try to dig that up on my home computer and post it later.

http://www.toyotavanpeople.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=7337&p=55989&hilit=steering+bevel+gear#p55989

[abracadabra]

Thanks for the post, its good to see that the part is still available, $370!!!

I'll try to call the closest Toyota dealer tomorrow and see if my van falls in to the recall or not. Its a May '87 van.

On other fronts, I did some real inspecting today again.

Control arm bushings seem fine, all the sway bar mounts/bushings are fine, I re checked for the 4th time all the ball joints, there is no play.

When either wheel is off the ground and moved at the 9 and 3 o'clock positions the same light clunk is heard which originates around the bevel gear or shaft above or below it. I really can't tell if its in the gear housing itself or the connections or U joints, its not much play but its the source of the sound and might be the source of the steering wheel vibration.

I'm thinking I'll pull the LF shock just to rule that out, I really checked out the tire that was just up there (now in the back) and it is worn very evenly on the outside, I noted that most tire wear associated with worn shocks is more uneven/scalloped.

Also I did check the maine shaft bolt under the steering wheel cover just to be sure, it was tight.

I'm running around in circles here! I hope I don't have to break down and take it in for a 2nd opinion somewhere. There's one guy who has an aircooled VW shop that a buddy of mine used to take his old 80's Toyota van to, I might give him a ring.

I'm just wondering, is the looseness in my steering connections the source of the play/vibration or did they loosen up due to strain from what the real problem might be?

And also, are the worn outter edge of my previous LF tire associated with the steering vibration?

Man, it'll be nice to nail this one down before the turn of the new year!

thanks,

mark

[abracadabra]

I should add, although it would be really cool to have my problem be something Toyota might fix for free, it doesn't really seem that my symptoms point to a problem with the steering gear right? I mean my steering wheel doesn't have alot of play, the vehicle doesn't wander, but I do have steering wheel vibration at upper speeds and a tire worn on the outside edge.....???

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh, I did find a listing of the recal # SSCK01 for the '87-'88 vans for bevel gear housing inspection....seen on this link

http://yotavans.org/community/tips/recalls.html#5

mark

[Burntboot]

Hey Mark - You really can't get good feel using wood as a prybar. It will make it a lot harder to feel any play.
A metal bar will give a much cleaner feel. For the record, you are looking to pry between the wheel and the lower ball joint stud, not the control arm.
I have done it with both a giant screwdriver as well as a standard crow bar, the longer the bar, the easier it is.
It greatly helps to have someone stepping on the brake pedal while you're checking the ball joints, less things to hold onto.

Not sure what to advise re vibration/wear.
But going in circles is always a bad idea, you need to work through things in a logical manner, fixing and correcting as you go.
It is very important to check things properly as you go.
Prying against the control arm wont show you play in the lowers.
Proper procedure is paramount to accurate diagnosis.

While I wouldn't expect play above the bevel gear to cause tire wear it is something that needs to be addressed.
Reading tires is a lot like tea leaves. But I have always considered outboard tire wear to be a result of positive camber or excessive toe.
Have you managed to get it on a rack to see where you are to begin with?
Have you checked ride height, as it will affect camber?
Hard to know without being there.
BB

[abracadabra]

Ah the going in circles part really starts to make me crazy!

The problem is, from the very beginning of this, many many months ago when I was still in Philly, I tried to rule out the easiest/most common source of steering wheel vibration: out of balance tires. I had my tires pulled, re-balanced, and rotated by the closest Firestone place. Guess what? The steering wheel vibration at highway speeds was actually more pronounced at first!

Now I'm back at a point where I've checked out so many things, and I've always assumed the tires are fine, but, can I really trust the person at Firestone? I mean some of the employees there looked like kids, which doesn't mean the couldn't do a decent job, but can I assume they did?

So thats what makes me crazy. As well, thinking that play in my steering linkage may be just a symptom of another worn out part etc.

I can say though I just rotated my tires again (trying to stay on top of that) maybe a month ago, thats when I noticed the worn front left tire. Rotating the tires did nothing to improve the ride, so, unless ALL my tires are out of balance I have a feeling things are okay on that front.

Also, here's another conundrum: the worn left front tire I rotated, I'm not one to really be on top of noticing tire wear (now I know better!), so I really can't say for sure that the wear actually happened while the tire was in that position (the tires were rotated once before, I'm not sure what pattern they used!).

Complicated, complicated.

Today I do plan on getting under the van again to scope things out.

For sure I have been checking the lower ball joints by prying between the lower ball stud and the rim of the wheel, I pryed really hard on both sides and couldn't feel/see any play. But there is the 9/3'oclock play on both wheels that elicit the same light clunk that seems to come from the bevel gear or linkage.

The FSM also mentions checking the ball joints by removing them and checking for rotation, this seems like alot of work! Is it possible to have a bad ball joint that passes the lever test? Out of all the possible scenarios for what could be wrong the lower ball joint fits the bill, but if there's no play.....well......(and I keep thinking of the mechanic in Philly who told me it was bad......he had a reputation for being pretty intuitive with his repairs......)

Well I'll keep on keeping on, gonna call Toyota today too (local dealer isn't too far away, maybe half hour....gonna check up about the bevel gear recall w/ my van.....)

thanks again,

mark

[abracadabra]

Okay folks, gotta love this.

I spent another hour under the van, bugging my wife to rock the wheel looking/listening for looseness etc.

After shrugging my shoulders and figuring it was now a rack issue, I was staring at my shock absorber before I lowered my jack, and I remembered BB's old post about checking the shocks.

So, I re-checked the tire that was up there, to really inspect the wear on the outside....sure enough, it was not totally even. I wouldn't call it scalloped but still enough for me to get the wrenches out and remove the shock.

Of course removing the shocks is a breeze. I took it in the house, got my manual out to check up on the testing procedure......

And you may have guessed it: this shock is dead! It has many dead spots and won't return at all when compressed. Its the original Toyota branded KYB and it has 170k on it!

Needless to say I'm pretty happy to find an actual bad part, it might not be the end in all this as I've probably damaged/worn some other parts by driving for so long with caput shocks.

Anyway, I'm now calling around for shocks locally, I'll probably just throw on some Gabriels from AutoZone, lifetime warranty, I can't seem to find much else and I don't really want to order online and then have to wait.....

I'll update mid-week once the shocks are in, we'll see how she rides!!

thanks,

mark

[trestlehed]

Mark/Abracadabra,

Here is the steering bevel recall. Download it and print it.
Some dealerships will give you the run-around on recalls and hope you go away.
If you have the actual recall/service campaign printed and in your hands, there isn't
much room at that point for them to deny you or lie to you.

805

As far as shocks go do your homework. I got some replacement shocks that totally suck.
My front end bounces like a mofo over ruts and speed bumps.

[abracadabra]

Wow, very cool! Can't wait to make this happen.

On the shocks front, well, I've done alot of research and it seems alot of folks have a hard time finding good non bouncy as all hell shocks for the 4WD fronts.

I can't find any specific negative info on the Gabriel Ultras, which I'm gonna try.

Also, I've found there are different opinions on what a bad shock acts like depending on the shock....

In my case I figured that because the shock was easy to compress and didn't return or did so unevenly with some pauses/dead spots, my shocks are shot, yes?

I know for sure now when I think about it, my van used to pretty darn bouncy over bumps etc. Then at some point it wasn't, I never noticed and now I'm here.

We'll see what happens tomorrow!

thanks,

mark

[abracadabra]

Well, here's an update.

I got the shocks yesterday from Autozone, Gabriel Ultras, $36 each.

Today I pulled and replaced the old shocks. The passenger side shock was worse than the driver side, which as pretty bad. I compressed the old shock, which stayed compressed, and installed the new shock and went I looked at the old one it was still compressed!

Anyway I wasn't expecting a cure all here, but the ride is better. Not a whole lot.

And of course, as I expected, the steering wheel vibration at speeds over 50 is still there. Its a little subtler now, but it hasn't been cured.

So I'm not sure if the worn shocks cause wear in other components or of this is a separate issue, but I've still got play somewhere. The other day the best I could figure is that it was coming from the the rack. A clunk when you move the wheels at 9 and 3.

Boy I hate to think about replacing the rack!!!!

thanks,

mark

[abracadabra]

Here's a link to a short video I made about the sound/play I hear when moving the wheels at 9 and 3.

http://youtu.be/29G1gkaG7sI

In the video I mention that the other wheel doesn't make this noise, which is incorrect. It makes the same noise, and when my wife moves the wheel and I'm underneath I can't see any play but using my hands the I've been able to pinpoint it to my rack. I've had the driver side boot off the rack and couldn't see play on the inner.

The vibrations I feel in steering linkage are due to the fact that everything is connected to the rack.

Any thoughts?

thanks,

mark

[Burntboot]

Hey Mark - For the record -
Play @ 6/12 will really only tell you how tight your wheel bearings are.
Play @ 3/9 is steering linkage stuff.

In order to find out where the problem is you have to move through the system looking and feeling while you wiggle stuff.
So while your wife wiggles the wheel side to side to produce the noise, you need to be underneath, doing your thing.
Don't just trust your eyes.
Often times you wont see a thing, but holding each piece of the puzzle helps, so grab things to feel if there is play, squeeze them, push on them,
see if you can affect the noise, once you figure out where the clunk is coming from then you can decide how to repair it.

When I found my problem, I could feel the rack (the actual toothed rod portion inboard of the inner joints) move up and down within the body of the rack.
When pushing up hard on the left side, the clunk was gone (while the wheel was being wiggled)
That is why I attacked the preload, the preload is supposed to push up.

Just keep grabbing onto stuff until you find where the play is coming from, diagnosis is easy at that point.
You should be able to grab onto each part that is suspect - anything that has a joint or connection point is suspect.
BB

[abracadabra]

BB-

I'm gonna attack this again very soon.

About the preload:

The FSM states using a "SST" for both the lock nut and spring cap here, what did you use? I saw in your earlier post how you did the procedure as far as finding the right tension, but I'm curious about tooling. The FSM procedure is pretty technical with the preload settings and degrees of this and that, but it seems if there is play here one can just get it right I imagine.

Thanks for the heads up on this, I'll see if that's where my play is. For sure when I feel with my hands when the wheels are moved the clunk seems to come from the rack itself.

Oh, just to know, when you had the rack clunk issue did you have steering wheel vibration?

thanks again,

mark

[Burntboot]

You don't want to mess with the preload unless absolutely necessary.

That said, I believe I bought a big wrench to fit the OD of the lock nut and a "coupling nut" from the farm supply store for the spring cap.
I think the coupling nut was on the order of 3/4in but may have been 5/8th's, will have to go dig thru the tools to know for sure.
A coupling is an extra long nut, about 1.5in long and works like an allen key on the inside recess, just put a wrench on the outty bit.

As to setting it up, there is no way to do it properly with the rack installed as the weight of all the components plus the fluid in the rack,
eliminates the possibility of setting the resistance, compared to working on the bench with a short rack.
I spent a long time working between too tight and clunky, too tight will wipe out the rack in no time at all.
The other part in all this is the tower assembly which does have bearings in it and has the gear on the end that the rack is butting up against.

In my case the plunger was seized in the away position from the rack, hence the play (It is spring loaded), by cleaning and lubing everything up I was able to adjust it for minimal play but aimed for the loose side of snug.
If yours isn't seized then there are other problems that will only be made worse with this procedure.

Even if you have a similar issue and are able to correct it with the above craziness, I would put a new rack on your shopping list for the future.

You also mentioned something about tire balance.
I find the factory rims a real pain to get straight on the machine in the first place, so it's possible that they are out of balance.
It's also possible, that problem is the balancer I have access to, but the suzi rims for summer are no problem.
Then again, if you rotated tires and didn't note a change in the condition, the tires are effectively out of the equation at this point.

One lesson I have learned with Red, There is no such thing as one problem.
Only the net effect of the culmination of many ills and injustices.

Those repairs are the hardest to diagnose as there are many issues all happening simultaneously and one can easily chase symptoms instead of causes.
BB

Don't know about a vibration while I was clunking.

[abracadabra]

Okay, gotta see if the play goes away when I push up hard on the rack while the wheels are moved.

Now, is the only way to see if the plunger is seized by removing the lock nut? Can one do this without messing up the tension (if it turns out the plunger/spring are fine)? I know, 1st things 1st. Got to get under the van, will do tomorrow (wife has the van!)

thanks,

mark

[Burntboot]

Okay, so tomorrow you're going to go out and get under the van and check EVERY joint and find where your play is coming from.

IF you find the play is all at the LS (drivers) of the rack, then you need a new rack and in that case it may be worth checking the plunger as a last resort.
If you look back at post 26 where Tim links to an exploded view of the rack you will get a better understanding of what your looking at tomorrow.
The upper part of the picture is the assembled rack, the lower part is the exploded view.
The part I am talking about is at the bottom of the pic.
And yes, the only way to check it is to take it out.
Play at that area can just as well be a worn rack, internal bushings or damaged pinion bearings, either way, it is new rack time.

But the first order of business is to actually locate where the play is coming from and go from there.
BB

[abracadabra]

Oh yes I know the parts of this rack well at this point, I mean I haven't had the thing apart but I've been studying the diagram and procedures in my FSM for a few days now.

I set out today to check on the vertical play on the driver side rack arm. Up until this point I had checked by feel every other component of the steering system and suspension, the sound/feel was focused on the rack itself.

Thanks BB for the leads on the plunger, what do you know I get the van up in the air and have my wife rock the wheels at 9 and 3, making the slop/clunk sound, and I push up on the left arm, the sound goes away. I did it several times just to drive the nail home, there's something up with the rack.

As the last resort I will attempt to remove/clean out/re tension the plunger.

At this point I see there's some shielding/sheet metal etc in the way of the lock nut and spring cap.

I was able to squeeze my small calipers in and measure an OD on the luck nut of 24mm, does this seem right? Did you use an open end wrench or socket? I can't see there's much room to get an open end wrench in there, but, maybe with the metal out of the way?

The spring cap I measured with this hand "inside diameter" caliper set I have, they've saved my butt many times! Seems like the ID of the spring cap is around 7/8", does that seem right?

I saw in the FSM the parts get good old grease, which I have, so all I have to do is collect the tools and wait for the temps to rise a little.....today the high was 22 and its gonna be 9 degrees overnight....should get some 40 degree temps next week so I should be able to see how this goes....keeping my fingers crossed.....I'd rather deal w/ the rack replacement at a future date!!!

thanks again,

mark in Maine

[abracadabra]

BB, are you pretty sure you bought a 5/8" or 3/4" coupling nut for the job? I thought it seemed bigger, but when I'm searching for bigger nuts they come in packs and cost a bit of $$. My local hardware store has nuts in the smaller sizes for a few buck a piece. If you find the tool, let me know. Thanks!

mark

[Burntboot]

Mark - took a look around but couldn't find the one I used, I think it was 5/8in but may have been only 1/2in.
Just to be clear, that 5/8in references bolt or thread size not wrench size

A 5/8in nut will require about a 7/8'ths wrench.
A standard nut may very well come in package form but not what you want, the coupling nut is a special beast, 3-4x the depth of a standard nut.
A 1/2" or 5/8" coupling nut will definitely be sold separately and be on the order of $1-2 ea.
Try a construction/builders or farm supply store, they are used for joining to pieces of threaded rod together.
Local hardware stores usually wont carry that type of specialized hardware.

A 24mm sounds right for the big nut and yes I used an open end wrench, alternating with my oversize adjustable pliers but neither worked well.
I was very lucky as the jamb nut came off with the cap and I was able to separate them on the bench after the fact.
I believe I used needle nose pliers to extract the seized plunger and don't DROP the spring.
If you're working on gravel, put something down to catch any wayward pieces, a person could spend hours searching for that damn spring before finally spotting it among a zillion little pebbles....

When you get around to adjusting the tension, do it with the tire off - only because it is harder to swing the assembly and makes it easier to feel the preload. After you swing it a few times, maybe do it before taking apart just to get a feel, as there is likely fluid in the rack you will also learn how that feels as you will have to compensate for it come final adjustments.

As to the adjustment, you are tightening the plunger against the rack which is supported in the housing, the pinion interacts with the toothing on the rack.
Having too little preload will allow a gap between the teeth of the pinion and the teeth of the rack causing both noise and wear,
having too little clearance will place excessive load on the bushings and pinion and will destroy metal parts in exceptionally short order.
You are trying to achieve just enough clearance to not destroy bits and pieces, but also to not clunk, I aimed for "light click".

BB

[abracadabra]

Yeah I think I confused myself trying to measure size of the coupling nut I needed, my local mom & pop general store actually has the 1/2" and 5/8" in stock and I'll buy both just to be sure, they're cheap enough.

Hopefully I can wrestle the lock nut off without too much hassle, I've got a big adjustable wrench I'm hoping will work.

Also, it mentions in the FSM that the nut is staked, how do you unstake it, and did you restake it when done? And did you use loc-tite on the threads?

Out of nowhere we got some snow tonight.....hopefully it melts away enough this week when temps get back in to the 40s....

thanks,

mark

[Burntboot]

Funny, now that you mention it, I remember reading about that, however I think I forgot all about it when I was working on it.
Explains why the nut came off with the cap screw, on the bench they are easy enough to get apart just working them.
Perhaps re-staking it would be a good plan, though, will put it on the list, thanks for the reminder.

Staking is simple, usually done with a pin punch with a good sharp point.
You want to make a little dimple in the flat steel nut, in close to the threads, essentially you are making the threaded hole out of round and locking the nut in place, it doesn't take much, as long as you can see a nice shiny little dimple your good to go.
I would probably only do one in this case as it is a no load situation but even high load applications, I don't do more than 3, evenly spaced.
I would stay away from the loctite, at least for the time being, staking it will hold just as well and is a lot easier to disassemble if you have to go back in for any reason.
BB

I made sure the the nut was free on the cap, installed the cap (never-seize on the threads) with the jamb nut several threads backed-off and did my adjustments,
then snugged down the jamb nut with the wrench, I also remember filing the flats to make the wrench fit better.
Make sure you swing the spindle a few times while snugging up the jamb nut, just in case tightening it changes preload.

[abracadabra]

BB, I have no idea how you pulled this procedure off!

I've spent any number of trips to the local tool store (Liberty Tool, all used stuff and man they probably have 1000 wrenches in the joint!) trying to find the right wrench for the lock nut.

I can't find the "right" wrench because the lock nut is nut a typical hex head AND its freaking 45mm from flat to flat!

I tried a huge pair of adjustable pliers and another huge monkey wrench but there's just NO room in there, and the way the flats are positioned I can't get a good hold on the thing at all. I'm just wasting my time and money at this point!

Also the coupling nut has been an issue, I tried 1/2" and 5/8" which where both too small, then i tried a 3/4 and its too big.

Unfortunately for me I got pulled over this week and now have no choice but to get my van through Maine inspection. That of course means any mechanic worth their salt is going to find play in my front end and I'll be forced to replace the rack unit, paying some mechanic I have no relationship or history with and who's never worked on one of these vans. What I keep telling myself is the one local shop that was recommended has certainly seen their share of 4WD Toyota vehicles in general, and I can't imagine changing the rack out would be beyond their capabilities.........but I bet it will cost me an arm and a leg!

Oh well, there's nothing I can really do, snow is breathing down my neck here, gotta have the van for work, and if I get pulled over again without Maine registration I'll be in real trouble.

thanks for all the help, wish i could have pulled this one off!!

mark

[Burntboot]

Sorry Mark - I don't know what to tell you.
Perhaps the difference is back to what Tim was talking about, with the racks being different 87 to 88??

I know that I originally went hunting for a giant allen key but when that chore failed I happened upon the coupling nuts.
I had measured the inset hex and took my callipers with me to the store and kept hunting till I found the right animal.
I do know that the big nut was huge but I did buy a giant wrench that fit the flats but because I totally forgot about the peening, I didn't have to deal with the
nut until it went back together, but your right, it is a tight fit no matter how you slice it.
I do seem to remember converting to imperial and buying a very cheap chinese wrench ($25) it may have been a 1-3/4" or so.

As a last resort, you could even try the old hammer and chisel method, if all else fails, just be careful not to ding the housing.
Like I said though, mine came off with the inner bit and I separated them after the fact and used a file to improve the wrench fitment.
Then I only needed enough swing to snug the nut (1/8th of a turn maybe)

I can't get into my shed right now, the whole place is a disaster as we are undergoing kitchen reno's.
The house was too small before the kitchen threw up all over the rest of the house.
Am stuck here all day tomorrow with plumbers and electricians, if I can clear a path, I will try to find the pieces I used and report back.
Maybe you could resize the 3/4in coupling nut with a file or dremel or perhaps find a metric allen key that might work.
For that matter an old bolt with the appropriate sized head could work too, just locktite a couple of nuts onto the threads??
Be careful of rust built up in the recess, I did clean mine up prior to taking the measurements and was surprised at the amount of crud in there.

Speaking of resizing things, maybe you could 'adjust' a wrench with a file, to make it fit the flats??

Sorry to hear about the run-in with the law, that really sucks, so does yearly inspections.
And here I was complaining about emissions every 2 years.
Did you get your lenses sorted out yet?
There is a rusting shell in the local yard, not sure if the taillights are intact or not, last time I was by to grab a side window, I found someone had used it for baseball practice, dumb asses, but I didn't think to look at the taillights as it is pushed deep into the bush, but I could double check this week, if need be.

[abracadabra]

BB, can you clarify something for me? You mentioned a few times that the lock nut came off with the cap/adjuster part......so did you break the whole thing loose by just going at that part or did you have to break the lock nut free first?

I guess my whole problem is thinking I had to break the lock nut first, and because I can't get a good angle on it it isn't working.

But, if I can break the whole thing loose by going at the large hex adjuster then maybe I just need to file down my 3/4 coupling nut (which I started doing) and go at it. I guess I was just thinking that trying to turn the inner without loosening the locknut might make the inner tighter, but maybe not?

Anyway I did try the old hammer and chisel as well and jut ended up knocking some chunks off the lock nut, it didn't loosen and then I was thinking if I had to replace the whole rack and wanted my core $$ back I wouldn't want to return a rack with a chewed up lock nut!

Of course now we've got a snow storm, ain't no working on this vehicle in the next week. Got love the timing of things!

thanks,

mark

[Burntboot]

Yes Mark, that is correct, like you, I couldn't get any purchase on the nut and the hammer and chisel didn't work either.
In a fit of desperation I decided to try the inner nut thingy and as I cracked it loose, it all came off together as an assembly.
Then I was able to separate it, after the fact, which made reassembly a great deal easier as I was able to set the preload, then spin up the lock nut by hand and just snug the nut with the big wrench.
And you are also right on the core, you want to avoid damaging the housing if you plan on getting your core charge out of it.
BB

[abracadabra]

Oh oh oh! Now I have a little bit of hope left. These next few snowy days I'm going to file down the end of my 3/4" coupling nut and also cut it shorter (it hits up on something underneath as it stands).

Then I'll try to crack it they way you did. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

mark

[abracadabra]

Oh boy, long time since I updated this post!

Just today I had the rare combination of free time and decent weather so I could get on with this project again.

I made a discovery that I should mention for folks who may head down this road. Originally BB mentioned using what he thought was a 1/2" coupling nut as a big allen key to get the adjuster nut on the rack out. I went out and bought a 1/2", 5/8", and 3/4" coupling nut at my local hardware store. None of them worked, either too small or too big. I was confused and did some researching online where there is a much better selection of coupling nuts available. Turns out that the most common flat to flat measurement for 1/2" coupling nuts is 7/8" , which is the size you want for this nut. For some reason all the True Value mom & pop stores only sell this other kind of nut which most certainly not the right thing!

So, to clarify, if you want to do this find a 7/8" allen wrench, allen socket, or coupling nut w/ a 7/8" flat to flat measurement.

Anyway, with the right tool in hand it was no problem breaking this thing free with my big cheater bar, the lock nut of course was staked in place.

My spring and guide fell right out when I got the nut out, which tells me that they weren't likely seized, but the grease was non existent and it was sorta watery in there. I cleaned everything up and greased everything, put it back together and ended up leaving the nut staked in place. I did this because I thought this must have been the factory setting so I figured I might as well snug it up to that spot and see what it feels like, if the piston was not working then having pressure on it should make a big difference. Well in the end there is just a touch of play when I move the wheels at 9 and 3, less than before.

And the test drive....steering feels better right off the bat in general, maybe its nothing, but once I got it up to 50 the steering wheel did the same old vibration thing again.

So, I'm really feeling like my issue is either in the rack itself although today underneath I did feel some play that I've always felt in the bevel gear housing.

My plan is to hold off until we get a 2nd vehicle, then print out the recall and make an appointment for the van at the local Toyota dealer.

All in all I did learn quite a bit here. Still wondering what the problem is but I guess we'll find out at some point right?

thanks,

Mark

[whennothingwas]

Hey all! I just picked up a 4wd '87 cargo and noticed the insides of the front 2 tires were showing wire while the outsides were nowhere near. I took it in to replace the tires and get an alignment, but the folks there said they couldn't align without replacing the upper ball joints. Their initial quote was about $400 for parts and labor, but then they called back to refer me to another garage as they weren't comfortable having never before done the repair. I took it to the next place where I was informed that the upper ball joints are attached to the control arm and the cheapest price they could find was $450 each (out of Canada). They then estimated $650 in labor (3 hrs/side). I declined the job and inquired how badly they were in need of replacement. I guess the joints have 1/4" of play, which they didn't figure was overly dangerous, although too great to properly align.

Three hours per side seems like a lot to me, although I have no experience with this kind of work, and I imagine the arms are available somewhere for less than $450, but my main concern is how risky it is to continue piling miles on the van in this condition. It seems to handle fairly well... Any thoughts?

[foreverly]

The cool thing about the 4wd's is that the balljoints & the control arms are one unit - so you get new control arm bushings when you do the balljoints. Replacing the control arm bushings on the 2wd is a bit of a hassle, but replacing the balljoints is a much simpler job.

Check with Rockauto for prices on the balljoints then find a local mechanic who specializes in suspension. I've shopped around on craigslist for mechanics with some success. Just interview them beforehand & don't get bullied around by them. Usually that kind of behavior means they don't know what they are doing.

I've had tires separate from improper alignment. not only it is the practical thing to do it's the safe thing to do - you don't want a tiring to go out on you at highway speeds.

[timsrv]

They are correct. On the 4wd vans the upper ball joints are part of the upper A-Arm assembly. I believe the upper A-Arms are still available from Toyota, but the price is getting pretty ridiculous. I just checked current MSRP and see they are $458.60 each :shock:. On-line discount sites like www.1stToyotaParts.com will sell for $330.85 each (plus shipping). Considering there are still good used ones out there I would have a hard time justifying that. I pulled a good set of uppers out of the u-pull-it yard in Portland last year and they were pristine. Yes these vans are getting rare, but Colorado isn't a bad place to find parts as they are still showing up in the salvage yards there. I see there's currently an 87 in Denver's U-Pull-And-Pay (http://www.upullandpay.com/denver/search-inventory?make=Toyota) but it doesn't say if it's a 4wd or 2wd. Another possible option would be to remove the arms, then have a machine shop rework them to accept removable ball joints. I had a set modified like this so I could run upper joints from a 4 runner. If you go this route you can have the joints spaced away from the control arm thus lifting the van a few inches. This type of machine work isn't cheap, but it's cheaper than purchasing new uppers from Toyota. Here's a thread where we have discussed this: http://www.toyotavantech.com/forum/showthread.php?709-4runner-upper-ball-joint-conversion

As for running your worn joints it's hard to say when safety becomes an issue. Tires aren't cheap either, so there's that too. At some point it will need to be dealt with, so I'd lean toward sooner rather than later. Good luck. Tim

PS: Current Toyota part numbers for the upper A-Arms = 48066-28050 R/H & 48067-28050 L/H

[whennothingwas]

Thank ya. I do intend to get this fixed, it's just that I'm (at least temporarily) moving to Wisconsin in a few weeks and was hoping to get this taken care of before adding 1500 miles to the van, but after the $1500 quote I'm thinking I'll wait a bit and make sure it holds up otherwise.

The main question I have is how reasonable is the 3 hrs/side quote to swap the control arms?

I think I like the machining solution... Thanks for the link!

[timsrv]

Seems reasonable. Considering the age and potential other issues I'd probably bid it at that too. Of course when I do the final billing I charge actual time. Some shops do a job in half time then charge quoted time (I always viewed that as being dishonest). If things go well they might be able to do both sides in 3, but who knows. Ask them if that's a flat fee or if they will charge actual time. They were within MSRP on the upper arms, so at least they weren't trying to rape you there. Tim